Yes, I understand. I am not trying to make any "argument". I am simply responding to the aspect of "image problem". My points may be argued invalid if someone chooses to take that tact. But, the points I have made just by reading through this thread seem to support the perceptions, even if maybe untrue:
Not the point or intent. As I mentioned, may not be true.... but that is a component of the "image problem". To ignore that perception, again may or may not be true, is to not address the "image problem". Not sure the point of a thread on image problem and then become defensive when discussing the image problem posed in the OP...
OP quote said:
I got that to.... But, I am curious what a pediatrician does that a FP will say/admit they are unqualified to do? Same for IM? I have never met any FPs that accept they are in anyway less then qualified for the roles of pediatrician or IM physician. Most will admit their surgical limitations... though, even on this forum, plenty of talk about csection, plastic surgery, being ED physicians. Again, I am simply putting forward the point of "image problem" and/or perception. Maybe it is not true. But, perception and "image problem" are entwined in who you recruit and to what group of trainees you are "attractive".
Maybe or maybe not. There was initially general surgery. as the science and knowledge expanded so did an increase in subspecialty additional training. Vascular surgery and/or boarding did not exists initially nor CT surgery.
earlier said:
Agreed. But, as I noted, I have yet to see here any statement of an FP/FM physicians limitations in general pediatrics or IM. On the FM/FP sites, what I consistently hear is the "do everything" and "cradle to the grave".... I don't hear anyone saying, "for this condition I send my patients to a pediatrician" or "for that condition I send my patients to an Internist"....
That would make you the first.... Again, I am intimately associated and befriended by numerous FPs. I have not heard a single one over almost a decade ever imply/suggest or otherwise admit a pediatrician or internist had a drop of increased qualifications in either field. On the contrary, I have always heard how they were all equally qualified. FP/FM is not advertised/marketed or recruited in any fashion that I am aware of in which there is any message that one will in any aspect be less qualified in pediatrics then a boarded pediatrician or less qualified in medicine then a board certified internist. Unfortunately or not, I have seen FP/FM marketed and recruited as a "shortcut" and "easier" pathway to "med/pedes".
As to the issue of harder boards....earlier said:
Does FP/FM have only a written exam or does it have an oral "certifying" exam after successful completion of a written "qualifying" exam? I don't know the answer. I would be curious to have the answer to that question in reference to IM and pediatrics as well....
I'm not sure how much more I could have asked... I have point blank asked, "is there anything a pediatrician can do that you can not?" and "is there anything you feel would be better served by referring to a pediatrician?".... The same questions posed to IM physicians.... The universal answer over almost a decade has been, "No, there is nothing they can do that I am not qualified to do" and "As a FP, I am a fully qualified pediatrician and internist"... some will go one step further to add, "I just didn't waste an additional year...."
earlier said:
Appreciated. The quote you post could undergo minor adjustments and apply to GSurgery, pediatrics, etc....
We all change after training and years of experience. That was not my questions or points.simple variation said:
That's a nice distractor but avoids the question.... by the same token I can practice OB/Gyn and psych.
I must have missed it cause I have not seen a "yes" or "no" answer along these questions....
I know they are not "internist" or "pediatricians"... by definition. But, for the medical students reading with interest and wanting to understand FM/FP and the potential trainee candidates.... Are those reasonable expectations of training that I have asked in my questions? Yes or no?
Put another way, is it unreasonable or dishonest of PDs to sell/market their program training as producing grads equally qualified for the full scope of pediatrics and IM? I'm not talking about being qualified for sitting for those boards... I am speaking to scope of practice and training.
I am surprised you were mislead... I suspect most reading were not. i am using terminology that I have used in asking FP PDs and FP attendings... they all seemed to understand the question and quite easily provided a "yes" or "no" answer.
No, you fixed it for yourself. You changed it to a question you wanted to answer and not the question posed.... Again, avoidance and distraction just as reference to your license....
Now that is closer to being an honest and accurate answer. I never said FP/FM was unqualified to provide said care under appropriate circumstances for pedes, IM, OB, etc... I was simply addressing the issue of "image problem". But, I dare say, then, that when PDs and attendings try to sell it in that fashion with honesty the image problem would vanish.
The avoidance of simply answering that question with a "no" is the image problem. From my perspective, IMHO PDs & attendings with such a difficult time suggest a lack of self-respect and understanding in their own field.
It's OK to be different and fill a different role.... but one should readily and easily acknowledge that difference and/or emphasize it.... without trying to over-sell.
That's a good theory.... But, I suspect the reality of what it should be and what it is might be troubling. Again, it's about breadth and NOT depth... (???"know all of what every medical subspecialist knows"). I am curious what is the composition of current FP/FM classes? How many IMG, DOs, and what are the overall academic indicators? Again, these are all issues of the "image problem". One can use the phrases of being "the foundation" or "FP is the hardest field to be great at..." if you like. But, I suggest introspection and analysis of the field and what it is composed of..... "not attractive" if it involves an additional year, etc...
earlier said:
Because this is the first time you have actually answered that question directly!!!! Why was that so hard for you😕
We could have spent the time discussing some differences, etc after a straightforward answer that might be helpful for med-students reading this thread....You twist the question, rewrote it, you provide the general statement of recognizing limits, you comment about the question/terminology being "misleading" but... you weren't mislead, you distract to talk about licensure, then spoke of breadth over depth to come back around and declare "equally qualified".... I'm guessing you just enjoy sparring? Cause you have now given a direct "yes"/"no" answer where before one could not be given....
IMAGE PROBLEM
In reference to academic load, I am not speaking of publishing, I am speaking of studying and accumulating knowledge/education... In the issue of residency, "competitiveness" is often measured in terms of difficulty in attaining a spot which is often accompanied by: How many IMG, DOs, and what are the overall academic indicators (grades, USMLE, etc...)? In short, is it a field that one needs to be a top performer during undergrad to medical school, etc.... to have a realistic chance at a training spot? the level of competitiveness contributes to a disciplines "image".
You really like the snide remarks and distractors.... I know a great deal of FP/FM probably far more then you could imagine (I know).... There wasn't much I would call an explanation for the most part. It seemed mostly like avoidance and word games on your part and IMHO a lost opportunity for discussion of the "Image Problem" and potential clarification for med-students...🙁
Interesting, someone should tell the PDs and attendings before their next sit down with residency applicants.
Again, clearly like the snide remarks, that's unfortunate.... based on comparisons you drew in the lost disagreement, I am not surprised.🙁
You are correct you never actually used the word "yes" in your reply. Nor, can I say you answered this question very clearly prior to you direct statement as noted above.
So be it.... It seems the question was answered in this thread (maybe even answered 3 times) and the question has been accepted and answered by numerous PDs over nearly a decade. These are questions I hear from medical students and have heard medical students ask at all levels of programs from the other med-students rotating, to the residents, to the attendings to the PDs... I will keep in mind to remind them it is a ridiculous and poorly thought question. I leave you to your own opinion.
