Primary Care's Image Problem

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But, I am curious what a pediatrician does that a FP will say/admit they are unqualified to do? Same for IM? I have never met any FPs that accept they are in anyway less then qualified for the roles of pediatrician or IM physician.

You may not be asking your FP friends the right questions.

Outpatient peds? Sure, an FP could, most likely, do that just as well. Especially things like well child checks, etc.

Inpatient peds....eh. Not so comfortable there.

Outpatient IM? Sure, an FP could almost certainly do that just as well.

Inpatient IM, particularly in an ICU setting? Eh....not so sure.

The biggest difference, that your friends might not realize is part of your question, is that FP is better suited at outpatient, whereas IM/peds is better suited towards inpatient. My sister, who did IM, had to learn a LOT about managing an outpatient office.....and the stuff that she had to learn is stuff that I've already learned how to do as an FM intern. It's a different focus, really.

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Why do you think it would be cheaper to see a mid-level instead of a physician?

Because they'll charge less? Not likely, since an independently-practicing mid-level would incur overhead and practice expenses similar to a physician, and would have to charge accordingly.

Because they'll get reimbursed less from insurance companies? Not likely, since most payers already reimburse independently-practicing mid-levels at the same rates as physicians. Sure, they could come up with some kind of tiered payment system and try to force patients to see mid-levels rather than physicians, but that would likely elicit a strong protest from patients as well as the medical (and medico-legal) community.

Because they'll order fewer tests or refer to specialists less often? Not likely. In fact, it's usually the other way around.

Does that help?


Yes, thanks.
 
""
You may not be asking your FP friends the right questions.

Outpatient peds? Sure, an FP could, most likely, do that just as well. Especially things like well child checks, etc.

Inpatient peds....eh. Not so comfortable there.

Outpatient IM? Sure, an FP could almost certainly do that just as well.

Inpatient IM, particularly in an ICU setting? Eh....not so sure.""

I spend a significant amount of my time in the ICU... not by choice however.. cannot name too many that would prefer that kind of work truthfully :rolleyes:
I would honestly prefer the setting of an Intensivist Critical Care doc running the ICU show. It has a high rate of burnout. Even some people that do it state that they do not really prefer it.
Inpatient Peds I agree with you, would rather leave that one to the Pediatrician. Not due to capabilities however, I just would not want to do it.
 
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OP said:
..."Kerry is too smart for primary care,"...
...the fm stigma...
..."perception" that FM is "easy" or something...
...The average number of patients seen per week in primary care is somewhere in the 80-100 range, which works out to 20-25 per day even if you only work four days per week. (Source: http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/aboutus/specialty/facts/5.html )...
...If you want to do a little bit of everything, do FM.

...There is obviously an image problem...

...Ease of Matching. It makes it seem like no one else wants to do FM...
...Paperwork. ...the perception ...is that FP's do alot of it.
...Lack of respect. The perception does exist among some that FM is "easy" and doesn't require special talent ...People spouting the notion that midlevels do just as good a job as FP's do not help this perception...
...I hate to spend 8 years to make a loudsy $120K per year...
...To clarify my question : 120k gross, 40 hours a week; 8-5pm, no on call, work in hospital-not private clinic.
Definately all (above) goes toward the issue of "image problem".
...Outpatient peds? Sure, an FP could, most likely, do that just as well. Especially things like well child checks, etc.
Inpatient peds....eh. Not so comfortable there.
Outpatient IM? Sure, an FP could almost certainly do that just as well.
Inpatient IM, particularly in an ICU setting? Eh....not so sure.

The biggest difference, that your friends might not realize is part of your question, is that FP is better suited at outpatient, whereas IM/peds is better suited towards inpatient...
I think that answer goes to the questions and may be useful to the students that come to this forum. It goes a long way to aid in identifying differences in specialties. I think if all can recognize the components of the image problem and identify the realities... it can go a long way toward understanding and/or clarification.
Thank you.
 
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Definately all (above) goes toward the issue of "image problem".

There may be an "image problem" with FM.

But I think that there are stereotypical reasons for why med students shouldn't go into ANY specialty.

Gen surg: "You hate free time, huh? Well, you can kiss your weekends goodbye if you go into general surgery!"

CT surg: "You WANT to go into a dying field where all the business is being stolen by cardiology?"

Neurosurgery: ":eek: You don't want to have a family or kids that can recognize your face??"

EM: "I thought you liked thinking, not just memorizing a list of pager numbers!"

Ortho: "Closet caveman, huh? You want to flush your IQ down the toilet?"

OB/gyn: "You don't want to become a real surgeon, huh? And you like getting sued? That's funny, I didn't THINK that you were a raging estrogenized bit** like most OB/gyns...."

Peds: "You hate money, I see."

Path/Rads: "You hate people, I see."

Family Med: "You won't make any money and people won't respect what you do!!! Don't you know that there's a huge image problem in FM?"

<sigh>

I'm fresh from MS3 and MS4, where you tend to hear this sort of stuff. Every field has its detractors, and some of what they say has at least a grain of truth to it. You just have to figure out if it bothers you enough. <shrug>

:)
 
Insurers and the government view primary care as replaceable widgets and will pay no more for Sherlock Holmes MD than a 25 year old reading directly off a flowchart. That's what's really insulting and none of the existing proposals address it.

And you think they view any other specialty any differently? Wouldn't count on that.
 
...But I think that there are stereotypical reasons for why med students shouldn't go into ANY specialty.

Gen surg: "You hate free time, huh? Well, you can kiss your weekends goodbye if you go into general surgery!...
I agree. You could add to the GSurgery something I was told along with my entire medical school class during certain lectures..."Look at who is in surgery, it's obvious these people deal best with patients when they are unconscious, it's not a field for people with a normal connection with society..."

JAD
 
Actually, there's lots of talk about quality measures, pay-for-performance, etc. However, I have little confidence that they'll do it right.

Do you think this will make things better or worse? If FPs are going to argue that they're better than midlevels it HAS to be an argument based on better outcomes (which I can believe is true). But all of the "quality" initiatives proposed are based on methods, which invariably boils down to "did you follow what the flowchart says". And there's plenty of evidence from other countries that midlevel PCPs will adhere to practice guidelines more than doctors will.

I think the key to FP making a revival would be a strong evidence base suggesting that FPs limit costs and provide good outcomes by managing things that midlevels can't recognize or would have to refer for.
 
Do you think this will make things better or worse?

The devil is in the details.

I don't see it having much to do with mid-levels, though.

If FPs are going to argue that they're better than midlevels it HAS to be an argument based on better outcomes

You have it backwards. The burden of proof would be on mid-levels to prove that they're at least no worse than we are. Of course, you can design a study to show pretty much anything you want to "prove."

This should be mandatory reading for every med student. Seriously.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

lie_with_statistics1.jpg


I think the key to FP making a revival would be a strong evidence base suggesting that FPs limit costs and provide good outcomes

That information is already out there: http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/policy/familymedvalue.html
 
But all of the "quality" initiatives proposed are based on methods, which invariably boils down to "did you follow what the flowchart says". And there's plenty of evidence from other countries that midlevel PCPs will adhere to practice guidelines more than doctors will.

Absolutely, which is why we have to keep the debate focused on outcomes. Adherence to flow charts & intermediate markers is a red herring. Bottom line, are you saving lives? Are you making the world better? Everything else is debatable.

Check out this recent observation, as flawed as it may be:
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/PCI/17170

It's interesting enough to raise a debate on whether or not focusing on intermediate markers (i.e. flow chart items) make a difference.

The burden of proof would be on mid-levels to prove that they're at least no worse than we are. Of course, you can design a study to show pretty much anything you want to "prove."

LOL. So true.

I don't know if the sentiment is shared by others, but I think if we (FP's) are going to argue that we have the best outcomes, should be the centerpiece of any health system, be reimbursed for the value we bring to society, all as a means to improve our image problem, we shouldn't be shy about having our outcomes compared to midlevels.

If I can't deliver the goods, then I need to evolve or cease to exist. That's free market society or at the very least, Darwin. I don't need to jerry rig the study or the game. I say, bring it. How can we say "look at our outcomes, now pay up" to patients/specialists and then turn around and say "don't look at outcomes, look at length of education" when the conversations turn to PA's and NP's? Talk about an image problem...

But point taken, Blue. Physicians are the standard of care when it comes to medical care and burden lies with the midlevels to demonstrate the oh-so-generous-one-tailed-p>0.05 "non-inferiority" or the "statistically insignificance" and therefore the "no difference".
 
I think if we (FP's) are going to argue that we have the best outcomes, should be the centerpiece of any health system, be reimbursed for the value we bring to society, all as a means to improve our image problem, we shouldn't be shy about having our outcomes compared to midlevels.

The best outcomes require physician leadership. This isn't a job for amateurs.

Study Results Confirm PCMH Success in Improving Quality, Reducing Costs
http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/...tice-management/20091123pcmhdemoprojects.html
 
But, I am curious what a pediatrician does that a FP will say/admit they are unqualified to do? Same for IM? I have never met any FPs that accept they are in anyway less then qualified for the roles of pediatrician or IM physician.

Your posts essentially are asking what a FP can do versus IM or Peds. The FAQ section in this forum seems to have a nice summary:

What about kids? What is the difference between the care provided by a pediatrician vs. an FP?

This is another issue that depends on region. I need to point out TWO important concepts:
1) The world of residency and the world of private practice are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLDS
2) MEDICINE IS REGIONAL (I cannot say that ENOUGH)

That being said, let me start off with the differences in training during residency:

PEDS - This residency consists of 3 years of KIDS ONLY less than 18 y/o. During the 3 years, one rotates through the various pediatric subspecialties (cardiology, pulmonoly, neurology, hematology-oncology, general inpatient ward, NICU, PICU, etc.) as well as continuity clinics where they follow a panel of patients throughout the 3 years. After training, there are 2 common pathways: one is a fellowship in one of the pediatric subspecialties, and the other is general pediatric practice which may be outpatient only, outpatient/inpatient mixed, or inpatient only (e.g., hospitalist).

FM - This residency consists of 3 years of various adult AND pediatric rotations. Most of the pediatric rotations will center around general peds with some subspecialty exposure. Of the 36 months of FM residency, approx. 6 of those are devoted to pediatrics and peds-related subspecialties (general outpatient peds, general inpatient pediatrics ward, NICU). In addition to that, when one is on the FM inpatient service, this will be a mixed service made up of both adults and kids of all ages, so your rounds may consist of a trip to the NICU, Labor & Delivery, as well as the adult ICU. In addition to that, one has electives in which one may choose to do an extra month of peds or a peds-related subspecialty (I did one in pediatric dermatology when I was a senior resident). Even further experience is gained through your continuity clinics, which you do from day one. In your continuity clinics, you follow ALL ages, from newborn babies to the elderly. Through the 3 years, you get a well-rounded balanced pediatric experience that mirrors the issues you will encounter in private practice. This leads me to the next question.

Family Medicine FAQ - Part 3


Wait a minute, peds residents get many more months of exposure during their training, aren't they better equipped in the private practice setting to handle kids vs. an FP?



Before answering that question, let me remind you of the two concepts I stated before:


- MEDICINE IS REGIONAL

- THE WORLD OF RESIDENCY AND THE WORLD OF PRIVATE PRACTICE CAN BE VERY DIFFERENT.



In a residency setting, peds residents see, on average, more "sicker" patients and do more inpatient work than FM residents. However, this is not the reality of private practice. In the world of private practice, peds clinic is the main source of income (unless you are a hospitalist, which in that case you are probably salaried). In an FM residency, you will get plenty of exposure to the bread & butter stuff that you will likely see in private practice. Yes, you will have some sick/critical cases, but not the same volume as your peds counterparts. The scenario changes in private practice.


For a pediatrician in private practice, 95% of the cases seen in that clinic are what we call "bread & butter" cases (well child checks/vaccinations, upper respiratory infections, otitis media, gastroenteritis, rash, ADHD, asthma, school/sports physicals, etc.). If you admit to the hospital, most admissions will be bread & butter as well (asthma exacerbation, dehydration, meningitis, pneumonia, etc.). Anything exotic or beyond the bread & butter gets a referral/consult to a specialist or possible transfer, PERIOD. The reasoning is twofold. One is LIABILITY. In this lawsuit-happy culture that we live in, you WILL be faulted for not consulting a specialist if the child had a serious condition that could have been prevented from getting worse. Second is REIMBURSEMENT. In private practice, a LARGE proportion of kids will fall under the state Medicaid program. In most places, these programs are CAPITATED HMOs. That means you get a fixed dollar amount per month per patient WHETHER YOU SEE THEM OR NOT. After you see someone for 1 or 2 visits for a particular problem, it works AGAINST you to keep on seeing them for the same problem. It is the prudent thing to refer out after 2 visits for the same problem, especially if you are on a capitated Medicaid plan. Even if the child has a fee-for-service PPO (which is not capitated), it's still prudent to refer out if the problem hasn't been solved in 2 or 3 visits. An FP in PRIVATE PRACTICE functions pretty much the same way as a pediatrician in private practice. The only difference is that you see adults as well, and you can wind up seeing the WHOLE family from grandma to grandkids (the true meaning of FAMILY practice). Because of this, the volume of kids you see in the office may not be as high as your peds counterparts. In some small towns, there are no pediatricians, so ALL of the peds work is done by FM. In the larger cities, there is a large volume of peds, thus the number of kids who are seen by FM is probably less. There isn't one specific pattern; it all depends on REGION. Irrespective of FM vs. peds, no matter where you are, a REALLY bad/sick/crashing kid WILL get shipped off to the nearest tertiary care facility, as most smaller private hospitals do not have peds sub-specialists, nor the capabilities to handle a very sick kid. I hope this puts to rest the FM vs. peds issue.



What is the difference between family medicine and internal medicine?


The main difference is that internal medicine is the specialty that deals with ADULT disease and treatment ONLY. Nobody under 18 (generally), and no OB. Family medicine deals with adult medicine, but also includes all other age groups (from newborn to elderly) and may or may not include an OB component (depending on region and personal preference of the practitioner). First, let me compare the residency training.


For IM residents, ALL rotations are in adult medicine and subspecialties. There is NO OB or peds. The only interaction with pregnant patients will be as a consultant for women in labor & delivery who develop a medical problem on top of their pregnancy (e.g., out-of-control diabetes, cardiac problems, etc.). As an IM resident, you will get more ICU exposure then the FM residents, and you will get to do more of certain procedures then the FM residents (central lines, Swan-Ganz catheters, etc.)


FM residents not only do adult medicine rotations, but pediatric rotations as well. They also have to do certain months of Labor & Delivery, where they not only play an active role in delivery and management of pregnant women, but also the management of medical conditions on top of the pregnancy that may occur (with the appropriate consultations, of course). Another difference is what occurs after residency. IM residents can do a fellowship in the various subspecialties, whereas FM has a limited number of fellowships. These have been described earlier in this document.


Here is the interesting twist...


In the world of PRIVATE PRACTICE, these differences are not as profound as in residency. The reason being is that as a private practitioner, your malpractice insurance as well as your hospital privileges WILL NOT cover the broad range of things you once did as a resident, especially when there are enough specialists around to do them. YES, an IM resident has put in more central lines than an FM resident, and floated more Swans, etc., but in private practice, you will be HARD PRESSED to find ANY private practice general internist who does those things for the reasons described above.

In a nutshell, when it comes to the private practice world of an IM doc vs. an FP, basically BOTH FPs and IMs on a daily basis handle the SAME bread & butter type of adult cases (hypertension, diabetes, thyroid disorders, upper respiratory infections, gastroenteritis, heart disease, rashes, etc. - which will make up 90+% of your office day), and are reimbursed the SAME from Medicare and managed care insurance companies. A level 3 outpatient visit (there are 5 possible levels) - (a.k.a. 99213) is reimbursed the SAME whether you are an internist or an FP. Anything beyond bread & butter management is referred out for the SAME reasons as I described in my peds vs. FM comparison.



When it comes to inpatient medicine in the PRIVATE PRACTICE world, FM and IM function the same way as well. Both handle bread & butter admissions (exacerbation of CHF, chest pain-r/o MI, sepsis, MI, altered mental status, pneumonia, nursing home "trainwrecks", etc.) and BOTH will obtain the appropriate consults when warranted - no difference. Did the internist get more experience managing a vent in residency? YES, but again, you are going to have a VERY hard time finding an internist in private practice who manages his own vents without calling pulmonology consult, because if there is a bad outcome because you didn't get a consult, you WILL get nailed!


FM and IM are both employed interchangeably by hospital staffs as well as managed care companies. ONE exception is in places that do not have any IM sub-specialists (cardiology, pulmonology, gastroenterology, etc.), the local internist may be the one who has to do certain procedures (reading echocardiograms, placing central lines, floating Swan-Ganz cathethers, stress tests, bone marrow biopsies, etc.), primarily because there is no one else around to do it. This phenomenon exists primarily in small towns with NO sub-specialists.


What is the difference between FM residency and Med/Peds residency, and what is the significance in private practice?


Basically, Med/Peds is a combination residency that combines IM and peds
into a 4-year residency (half medicine rotations, half peds rotations). These programs do not include OB rotations or general surgery. At the end, one must obtain and maintain board certification in BOTH specialties (that means 2 separate exams, plus CME and recertification). In FM, there is just ONE board certification to maintain. For Med/Peds, after residency, one may elect to do a fellowship in either an adult, pediatric, or a combined adult/peds subspecialty. In FM, there are limited fellowships which have already been described.


Here is where the differences end. In the world of private practice, BOTH function the same. The only difference is IF the FP decides to include OB in his/her practice, then the med/peds doc cannot cross-cover. BOTH groups will handle the same type of bread & butter adult and peds cases with the APPROPRIATE referrals to specialists when warranted. There is no difference in insurance reimbursement between the two for a particular case.


Family Medicine FAQ - Part 4


What about the OB component of FM? What is the difference between care provided by an FP vs. an OB-Gyn?



Here is where the results are VARIED based on REGION. While FM does require certain rotatoins in Labor & Delivery, the experience varies by the program and location. An FM resident will get more OB experience in an UNOPPOSED residency vs. a university-based one with OB residents. After residency, many FPs elect NOT to incorporate OB in their practice (including yours truly). This is done primarily because of the numerous liability issues involved (your malpractice premium will SKYROCKET if you include OB). Plus, it may be VERY difficult to get the necessary hospital privileges to do OB (all dependent on region). Furthermore, you'd BETTER have a sufficient volume of OB work to justify and offset the increase in your malpractice premium or you will LOSE money.


In those areas of the country where FPs do OB, they work together with the OB-Gyns and share call coverage for Labor & Delivery. FPs who do OB commonly handle routine non-complicated pregnancies and deliveries. Complex situations are automatically referred to an OB-Gyn or transferred to a tertiary care facility. SOME FPs in certain areas have C-section privileges, and some don't. It all depends on regional and local politics as well as the training of the individual practitioner.
 
OP said:
..."Kerry is too smart for primary care,"...
..."perception" that FM is "easy" or something...
..."competitiveness" ...How many IMG, DOs, and what are the overall academic indicators (grades, USMLE, etc...)? In short, is it a field that one needs to be a top performer.... to have a realistic chance at a training spot? ...competitiveness contributes to ..."image"...
...There is obviously an image problem...
...Ease of Matching...
...Lack of respect...
...But, I am curious what a pediatrician does that a FP will say/admit they are unqualified to do? Same for IM? I have never met any FPs that accept they are in anyway less then qualified for the roles of pediatrician or IM physician...
Your posts essentially are asking what a FP can do versus IM or Peds. The FAQ section in this forum seems to have a nice summary:
I appreciate your posting of the FAQ. I have pretty much left this questioning as the answer seems to get somewhat circular. It is clear that a pediatrician gets a greater amount and duration of exposure to pediatrics during their training and IM gets a greater amount and duration of exposure to adult medicine during their training. It is also clear that most (FM/FP) are unwilling to admit/accept they are less qualified (true or not?) in either discipline at the conclusion of the FP/FM residency then either an IM or pediatrics residency grad. I hear echoed the concept of primarily "outpatient" and bread and butter.... but it does seem the bet is being hedged and then it becomes , "but, we can do all the inpatient, etc... too we just choose not to...". One can look through this forum and even this thread and find an unwillingness in individuals to accept any limits in training by a three year path.... folks wanting to do csection, plastics, critical care, hospitalists, EM, etc.... Plenty of folks believing or suggesting the three year path (?shortcut) has empowered them in all fields... limits as yet not clearly defined.

I think this thread was trying to speak to an image problem. I leave it to the readers to look at all the responses and/or contradictions... if there are any. I was trying to discuss that issue (image problem). But, in the end, the circular and yes, then no, then yes confusion seems to IMHO add to the problem. I suspect most in FP/FM perceive themselves well and thus do not recognize an "image problem". I accept I am not a member of the "church" and many come hear to preach to their choir. The image problem really relates to how those outside your field perceive you. Until any group is willing to accept that, whatever image problem real or perceived exists will persist.

regards,
JAD
 
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I have truly enjoyed reading the posts of BlueDog and other senior members. As an MS3 on the fence between FM and OB/GYN, I am very much interested in learning where FM is going. When I began med school, my plan was to go into rural FM. I enjoy all aspects of medicine with a strong interest in obstetrics and procedures. I am an osteopathic student and I plan to continue to develop and use my OMM skills in practice. I like the variety of FM and being able to see pediatric patients. I love the idea of doing OB and then the newborn may become my patient and have this consistency with families. I am on my second OB rotation now and everyone is telling me that FM is doing OB less and less due to malpractice insurance and that if I want to do obstetrics I should do OB/Gyn. I am concerned about this and the fact that I do enjoy being in the OR usually, I haven't been able to fully let go of the idea of going OB/GYN. I think I have this stereotype that OB/GYN docs have crazy schedules and work more than FM docs, but after following some attendings, I am not sure that that is entirely true. I read somewhere, maybe it was the AMA website, that the top 5 problems that FM docs deal with everyday were something like HTN, hyperlipidemia, DM, COPD, and asthma. If this is true, what does this mean for the med student who wants to more procedures in FM? I've heard of some FM docs that do colonoscopies and endoscopies. Personally, I would like to heavy in OB and GYN procedures. I am having trouble finding info on what types of procedures I could get qualified to do as an FM doc. Specifically, can we do simple OR stuff like endoscopy, hysteroscopy, D&C, etc? Any insight into the procedures-oriented FM doc is greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
 
One can look through this forum and even this thread and find an unwillingness in individuals to accept any limits in training by a three year path... limits as yet not clearly defined.

Our limits are defined by our competencies, same as yours.

Frankly, you're the only one here who seems confused.
 
Our limits are defined by our competencies, same as yours.

Frankly, you're the only one here who seems confused.
I suspect you know better....

The issue of "image problem" was NOT posed or started by me. Further, plenty of interesting posts by premeds and med students suggesting it exists. As I stated, I suspect most FM physicians think very highly of themselves and their chosen discipline. So, I suspect an FM/FP is not likely to perceive the "problem" ... if they choose misdirection and avoidance.

If one reads through this thread, it becomes apparent that some in FM are unwilling to even admit/accept differences in specialty qualifications and/or limits and unwilling or unable to clearly define scope and/or expectations that would be reasonable for a prospective resident. I read one trying to point to general surgery and its multiple subspecialty rotations... Yet, as I note, no program I am aware of in GSurgery proclaioms its grads are equally qualified after FIVE years of training to function in those subspecialty disciplines as someone actually trained in those disciplines (i.e. plastics, vascular, thoracic, pediatric surgery, etc...).

I read sufficient statements to the effect that one's academic performance and/or indicators are irrelevant (i.e. grades/USMLE/etc...). I also hear an interesting suggestion that somehow 3yrs of ~general/broad training makes the underachievers some sort of "badas*". While I appreciate the theory that a PCP should be the most intelligent and/or knowledgeable practitioner, I have seen no evidence to suggest this to be true. On the contrary, it is marketed... and made more "attractive" by decreasing it actual training intensity.... FP/FM has to my knowledge and experience not been a very intense training program but rather one family friendly and gentle experience. I have seen more FP residence with large amounts of "monnlighting" time then any other specialty.... I find it hard to believe that if you fill a program (in some circumstances) with the bottom performers from undergrad through med-school you will somehow get highly disciplined learners by making the program less intense....

I have no confusion on this matter. I will defer folks interested in the field of FM/FP/PC to read all the posts and replies in this thread.....

Regards,
JAD
 
I have no confusion on this matter.

You've come here with preconceived notions, and are seeing what you want to see.

Primary care's "image problem" may have many facets, but hubris certainly isn't one of them.

Maybe you're just projecting. ;)
 
You've come here with preconceived notions, and are seeing what you want to see.

Primary care's "image problem" may have many facets, but hubris certainly isn't one of them.

Maybe you're just projecting. ;)
sure, if you say so...:bow:
....I will defer folks interested in the field of FM/FP/PC to read all the posts and replies in this thread...

by the way,
have a good winter season/holliday.
 
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The issue of "image problem" was NOT posed or started by me. Further, plenty of interesting posts by premeds and med students suggesting it exists. As I stated, I suspect most FM physicians think very highly of themselves and their chosen discipline. So, I suspect an FM/FP is not likely to perceive the "problem" ... if they choose misdirection and avoidance.

Of course many FM physicians think highly of themselves. They are PHYSICIANS after all. ;)

Seriously, in your years in the medical profession, how many physicians (regardless of specialty) have you met that had an exalted opinion of themselves? This seems to be a personality flaw that's tied in with the degree, and not the specialty. :p

And sure, there are a lot of FM physicians who can't perceive a major problem with their field....but again, this is true of a lot of fields. From the pediatricians who flounder when they see a 25 year old, to the pathologists who wouldn't know what to do if someone collapsed right in front of them, to the EM physicians who lack the ability to see a patient's long-term care and change a patient's meds willy-nilly without notifying the PCP, to the orthopods who seem almost proud of their utter inability to manage simple things like HTN and diabetes, few people willingly talk about the flaws of their field.
 
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