Problem Based Learning Curriculum...

[Krisss17]

I was curious to know whether there are any allopathic medical schools that offer PBL. One of the reasons, I would consider DO over allopathic is for this learning option (if allopathic doesn't offer it). From what I've researched, I really feel that PBL would work best for me.

Appreciate any responses.

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[soeagerun2or]

I was curious to know whether there are any allopathic medical schools that offer PBL. One of the reasons, I would consider DO over allopathic is for this learning option (if allopathic doesn't offer it). From what I've researched, I really feel that PBL would work best for me.

Appreciate any responses.

PBL is a waste of time.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

PBL is a waste of time.

weill cornell's schedule is like 8-12 every day. pbl *gives* time.

 

[Robizzle]

Drexel has 2 paths: IFM (lecture based) and PIL (problem based)

 

[baylormed]

Hell On Earth

Run, run!!!!

 

[JDWflash44]

I agree with the above poster. We are a PBL school and an average week for us is Mon 8-12, Tue 8-12, Wed 8-5, Thurs OFF, Friday 8-130. It gives you the free time to study things on your own and pursue other things.

 

[diosa428]

I was curious to know whether there are any allopathic medical schools that offer PBL. One of the reasons, I would consider DO over allopathic is for this learning option (if allopathic doesn't offer it). From what I've researched, I really feel that PBL would work best for me.

Appreciate any responses.

A lot of schools offer at least some PBL. I think that Northwestern does a lot of PBL. Really, though, it is not the best way for a lot of people to learn information. As a premed, I thought it sounded great too. But, we've had a few PBL sessions (although we don't call them PBL here) and while they seem helpful conceptually, in practice I don't find them useful. Why? Remember that in medical school, your first year will often be what's "normal" and your second year will be disease. So they present to you a patient with symptoms - except you don't know what the symptoms indicate because you haven't learned about the disease yet. Then they tell you about some lab tests that were run, but you don't understand what those mean, either. Then they tell you what drugs they gave and what the drugs did, but you haven't taken pharm yet, so you don't understand that either. So you have to look up all this info online and try to make sense out of it. And it's a pain. It makes a lot more sense to learn the information in lecture first, and then try to put it all together later, on the wards.

 

[sunnyjohn]

PBL is fantastic.

It's lectures that are a complete waste of time.

Can't we skip 90% of lecture and study at home?

 

[baylormed]

PBL is fantastic.

It's lectures that are a complete waste of time.

You don't have to go to lectures. You kind of have to go to PBL, an absence from a small group is sorely noticeable. I'd rather stay at home and study on my own, thank you.

 

[sunnyjohn]

You don't have to go to lectures. You kind of have to go to PBL, an absence from a small group is sorely noticeable. I'd rather stay at home and study on my own, thank you.

Small group??? Hell no. I always end up in he parking lot putting a beat down on the lazy butt slacker and the funny guy who thinks it "kewl" not to do their share.

 

[baylormed]

Small group??? Hell no. I always end up in he parking lot putting a beat down on the lazy butt slacker and the funny guy who thinks it "kewl" not to do their share.

Or worse, having to listen to the hypertalkers answer all the questions all morning while you fantasize about being home and doing something substantial. Hell no.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Or worse, having to listen to the hypertalkers answer all the questions all morning while you fantasize about being home and doing something substantial. Hell no.

Werd

*Sunny nods in agreement- considers Baylormed her Texas B-dawg!*


~~~~~

 

[LizzyM]

Yes, there are allopathic medical schools that offer some instruction using PBL. There are others that do not. Look at the M1 and M2 schedules for schools that interest you based on location, reputation, etc (you have to narrow the field somehow) and make your appication decisions based on which schools you think may fit your learning style.

 

[baylormed]

Werd

*Sunny nods in agreement- considers Baylormed her Texas B-dawg!*


~~~~~

 

[baylormed]

Small price to pay a couple days a week for not having to deal with daily lectures. Plus, if y'all would grow a pair, it can be a lot of fun going after your "peers" when they start acting like idiots.

Again, you don't have to go to lectures.

And I find insult in the "grow a pair" comment. First, because I'm female, and second, because I don't think I have to stand anybody else's idiotic droning about something they know little about if I don't have to. Aren't you the one always complaining about how "Tired" you are? I can easily reverse the comment, and I'm afraid it would fit better.

 

[DCDAWG]

Mercer is all PBL

 

[sunnyjohn]

Small price to pay a couple days a week for not having to deal with daily lectures. Plus, if y'all would grow a pair, it can be a lot of fun going after your "peers" when they start acting like idiots.

Oh, I have the cajones. I ripped them off the last dude who threw that line at me.!!! LOL

That's why me and the "hyper talkers" and lazy a$$3s always end up in the parking lot!

 

[notdeadyet]

Mercer is all PBL

UH too...

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

different strokes, different folks.

my personal issue is that i wouldn't want to miss lectures, due to guilt issues and the fact that i do benefit from them. so a (pbl-focused) school that minimizes lecture time would be good for me in that regard. minimizing one's time at school is, to me, a nod to the fact that we're mostly teaching this stuff to ourselves anyway.

so having agreed that i will learn the content on my own anyway, a benefit i see to pbl is teaching me how to think like a doctor early on. even if this format is too early to be ideal for conveying information, it's a better way to teach a thinking/interacting process that you'll be doing through your career. and i'm not convinced that it's not effective for teaching information. language immersion is an effective way to teach content, but it is conducive to early frustration. i've also learned over the years that you learn a lot from having to present material. so i don't expect other students in pbl to teach me much with their presentations, but i do expect to learn a lot myself when i'm presenting my information. it's about process, not content.

 

[Krisss17]

PBL is fantastic.

It's lectures that are a complete waste of time.

Lectures, I found can at times be the major waste of time. It is one thing if the instructor is engaging, but there are many lectures that are just a way to force feed information...the only interactions you may find in lectures are between the students sitting in front of the class, or those students who think it is a perfect time to have a conversation with their next door neighbor.

I just think that the PBL enables one to integrate the different areas required. Of course, I am a non-traditional, so my feelings my be a little more biased. Lectures are a little bit more "safe" than PBL, and for traditional students that are going directly from high school, to their UG school to their medical school, I can see how this type of learning can be scary. Just don't discount it because it is different.

I do think that it does require the med schools to take an active role in developing their PBLs.

 

[sunnyjohn]

And don't you think it's fun? I loved it. It's like being able to heckle a lecturer.

I'll admit, it was fun. Still, after the fun wears of and I realize you lazy butt is gonna benefit from my hard work AND I have to listen to you for the rest of the semester, I just get angry.

You wouldn't me to get angry.

*Sunny goes looking for a T-shirt to match her new cutoff shorts*

 

[Dookter]

PBL only works if you know what you're talking about....which can be a problem. I know I would rather just get to the point and have someone teach me first, then let me integrate and use the info later....

I think extremes on both side are bad....I like how my curriulum is lecture based, but we do PBL-esque things too....

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

UTMB is all PBL.

 

[WCGee]

SIU is all PBL (with optional resource sessions = lectures)

 

[diosa428]

it's about process, not content.

Yes, but your exams will most likely be about content, not process. You have all of third and fourth year, not to mention your intern year, to learn about the process.

My recommendation is this: if you have not had experience with PBL, apply to a range of schools that have a range of PBL in their curriculum (some schools with all PBL, some schools with only some PBL, maybe some schools where it is not a big factor) and then on interview day, ask some students about how they like the PBL. I think that schools tend to arrange and integrate their PBL in different ways, and at some schools it may be a waste of time, but maybe at others, where it is better integrated, it works better. That way, if you're set on PBL, you can at least find a school where it seems to be working and the students seem to be happy. Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to start a thread on the allopathic board asking students where they go and if they have PBL and if they like it - maybe from that you can get a better idea of how much of a role PBL plays in the curriculum at each school and whether or not it seems helpful to the students.

 

[pennybridge]

uhh. I'm paying $200,000 dollars to learn medicine, somebody damned sure better teach me.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

uhh. I'm paying $200,000 dollars to learn medicine, somebody damned sure better teach me.

from what i understand, that begins to happen third and fourth year at *every* school.


as for the concept of all-pbl schools (which i think pbl haters are implicitly arguing against), are there any that exist? i think cornell and northwestern are at or less than 1/2 pbl.

 

[8744]

...it's about process, not content...

Repeat this while taking Step 1.

 

[8744]

PBL only works if you know what you're talking about....which can be a problem. I know I would rather just get to the point and have someone teach me first, then let me integrate and use the info later....

I think extremes on both side are bad....I like how my curriulum is lecture based, but we do PBL-esque things too....

Not in this case. All lecture without mandatory attendence is the extreme and the best. The trouble with PBL is that most of your PBL time is low yield compared to studying. You will still have to study but if you had a lecture curriculum, you could skip class and study. You have to go to PBL sessions which seriously cramps your studying.

Come on folks. First and second year is going to be the last time for a long, long time (maybe your whole life) where your schedule is not dictated entirely by the needs and demands of others. PBL is like prison. You have to be there. You can't, on a regular basis say, "To hell with it. I'm going to the city library to study today...strike that...I'm going fishing."

Oh you poor, sick, deluded pre-meds.

 

[8744]

But if you prefer to be spoon-fed in a small group information that you could learn on your own...well, be my guest.

 

[notdeadyet]

Repeat this while taking Step 1.

Excellent....

 

[Krisss17]

But if you prefer to be spoon-fed in a small group information that you could learn on your own...well, be my guest.

And you don't think this is happening in regular lectures? Unfortunately a lot of this rests with the SOM...if they are only adding PBL because other SOMs may be doing it, but they aren't providing the minimum requirements to be successful, it isn't going to be successful.

Courtesy of the Problem Based Learning Initiative (http:\\www.pbli.org\)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]THE MINIMAL ESSENTIALS FOR PROBLEM-BASED LEARNING IN MEDICAL EDUCATION[/SIZE].

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]In reviewing these essentials it is important to keep in mind the principle objectives of the method. The acquisition of an extensive, integrated knowledge base that is readily recalled and applied to the analysis and care of patient problems.[/SIZE].
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]The development of effective and efficient:[/SIZE].

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Problem-solving or clinical reasoning skills[/SIZE].
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Clinical skills[/SIZE].
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Self-directed learning skills[/SIZE].
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Team skills. [/SIZE].

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]MEDICAL EDUCATION ESSENTIALS [/SIZE].

1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Students must have the responsibility for their own learning.
   As the students in a problem-based learning curriculum work with a problem they should be able to identify what they need to learn and what resources they are going to use to accomplish that learning. In this way students can design their learning to meet individual needs (as they all have differing knowledge and experience) and career aspirations. Allowing students to have the opportunity to assume this responsibility, under faculty guidance, prepares them to become effective and efficient life-long learners-an absolute essential in a profession where new types of problems and new information surfaces with almost logarithmic expansion. The old educational truism states that half of what the students learn in medical school will be wrong or outdated by the time they are in practice, and no one knows which half that is. This means that the teachers working with the students should not provide the students with what they feel is the information students need in their studies nor give them reading or study assignments. The students must learn how to decide on what they need to learn and to seek out appropriate learning resources, using the faculty as consultants (often called "resource faculty" in problem-based learning) as well as books, journals, online resources and other experts. This means that problem-based learning is not teacher-centered, the teacher does not direct what students should learn or what resources they should use. Instead the teacher designs and provides the problem simulations and patient experiences that challenge the students to learn what is needed in their preparation for a career in medicine. Using facilitatory teaching skills, the teacher guides them in their work with the problem as they develop problem-solving skills, identify what they need to learn and develop self-directed learning skills. The teacher in this role is usually referred to as a "tutor" and needs to be well trained for this role.[/SIZE].
2. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]The problem simulations used in problem-based learning must be ill-structured and allow for free inquiry
   As with patient problems in the real world, problem-based learning problems must present as ill-structured problems, with just the initial presenting situation stimulating learners to generate multiple hypotheses about their cause and possible solution. These ill-structured problems must be designed to allow students to freely inquire through history, physical examination and the ordering of laboratory tests in order to obtain information needed to support or verify their hypotheses. Although many problems designed for problem-based learning are single patient problems it is important that problems are designed that represent other problems that will be faced by graduates such as community health problems and problems associated with managed care systems.[/SIZE].
3. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Learning should be integrated from the wide range of disciplines that are related to understanding and treating patient problems are basic to the science of medicine.
   Problem-based learning should not occur within a single discipline or subject. Information should be integrated from the many disciplines that are basic to the practice of medicine such as; anatomy, biochemistry, clinical medicine, epidemiology, ethics, human behavior, immunology, pathology, pharmacology, physiology, psychology, etc.. During self-directed learning, students should be able to access, study and integrate information from all the disciplines that might be related to understanding and resolving the particular problem they are working with-- just as the physician must recall and apply information integrated from these diverse sources in patient work. This allows the patient problem to be the organizing focus for student learning better ensuring the recall and application of that valuable and important basic science information in their subsequent patient problem encounters in clerkship, residency and practice.[/SIZE].
4. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Collaboration is essential
   Student collaboration occurs naturally during the group's discussions with the tutor. However, the students must be encouraged to collaborate during their self-directed study. Collaborative work among the students in the group at this time can be the most rewarding and productive part of their learning as the students work together helping each other to gain an understanding of what they are learning and its application to the problem. It is this collaboration that allows the students to develop the security and authority they need to be responsible for their own learning. Collaboration is an essential skill the students must have in their careers as they will be invariably working as members of teams.[/SIZE].
5. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]What students learn during their self-directed learning must be applied back to the problem with reanalysis and resolution.
   On return from self-directed study the students must apply, through their interactive discussions what they have learned. They must do this in a way that will provide a deeper understanding of the problem and insure the recall of that information when they are faced with similar patient problems in the future. This discussion is triggered by a review of the hypotheses that were generated by the students in their work prior to going off for self-directed study. Any suggested changes in the hypotheses will reflect what was learned during self-study and opens an interactive discussion of what was learned.[/SIZE].
6. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]A closing analysis of what has been learned from work with the problem and a discussion of what concepts and principles have been learned is essential.
   Before completing their work with a problem, the students should reflect on what has been learned and determine if there are any things missing in their overall understanding of the problem and the basic mechanism responsible. In addition, they must reflect on how their new learning relates to prior problems and prepares them for future problems. In doing this they can determine and discuss what important overall concepts or principles have been learned. This important step helps convert procedural knowledge gained through problem solving into declarative knowledge for use and recall with other problems in the future. Concept maps are very useful providing an armature for this process.[/SIZE].
7. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Self and peer assessment should be carried out at the completion of each problem and at the end of every curricular unit.
   The students must become proficient in assessing their individual learning progress and that of their peers. The ability to accurately monitor the adequacy of personal performance is essential to developing life-long self-directed study skills. The ability to provide colleagues with accurate feedback is an important skill in medical practice.[/SIZE].
8. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Continual opportunities must be provided for clinical skills to be learned.
   The opportunity to develop effective clinical skills must be embedded within the problem-based learning curriculum. Many of the problems in the curriculum can be presented as standardized or simulated patients allowing the development of these skills along with problem-solving, self-directed study and team skills. In addition, recurrent opportunities should be provided for students to work in clinical settings applying what they have learned in their problem work to real patients and developing their clinical skills.[/SIZE].
9. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]The sequence of activities carried out in problem-based learning, and problems employed in problem-based learning, must accurately reflect medical practice.
   In problem-based learning students must go through the same activities, as they learn, that as they will go through in their professional work with patient problems. The problems used must be those that are prevalent and important in practice. This ensures that the activities undertaken by the students and the skills and knowledge acquired are relevant to effective practice as a physician.[/SIZE].
10. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Student examinations must measure student progress towards the goals of problem-based learning.
    Although a major component of the assessment of students' progress comes from self and peer assessment that occurs at the end of every problem, additional formal assessments must assess the students' problem-solving skills, self-directed learning skills, clinical skills and ability to recall and apply an integrated knowledge base in work with a problem.[/SIZE].
11. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Problem-based learning must be the pedagogical base in the curriculum and not part of a didactic curriculum.
    Problem-based learning should not be episodic, added on to or mixed in with more traditional, didactic, teacher-directed, passive, memorization-based and lecture-based educational methods. Problem-based learning requires that students are active learners, responsible for their own learning and have adequate time for self-directed learning. The contrasting and conflicting curricular and time demands of didactic teacher directed learning diminishes the value of problem-based learning and confuses and frustrates both teachers and students. It prevents full realization of the value of problem-based learning and the excitement and enjoyment the method can provide students preparing for a career in medicine. It must be an independent curricular undertaking.[/SIZE].

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]A more accurate title might be "student-centered, problem-based, inquiry-based, integrated, collaborative, reiterative, learning."[/SIZE].

To close, I'm going to say that "change" is the most feared word for many, especially to those considered to be traditional. If SOM are not willing put their support behind this curriculum and just let it run haphazardly, then yes, PBL is a waste of time. But if SOM can see the opportunities to get students involved in their education process early, I think that there is a lot that can be gained from this curriculum.

 

[SeventhSon]

Can't we skip 90% of lecture and study at home?

thats what i do, it works great. PBL probably is a better learning tool than lecture, but at least you can skip lecture if it doesnt work for you. YOu can't really skip small-group.

 

[baylormed]

thats what i do, it works great. PBL probably is a better learning tool than lecture, but at least you can skip lecture if it doesnt work for you. YOu can't really skip small-group.

Exactly. We've been trying to say that all along.

 

[SeventhSon]

what panda bear is saying is completely true for a sizeable subset of people. Being efficient is mandatory, and lecture is never worth the time for me. It is for some people, but I think more people are just scared of missing something that is emphasized.

My postion on that is that, do you want to learn a lot or just do well on the test? In the long run, you're better off learning more and missing a couple questions on each test. It will show on step1

 

[Krisss17]

Exactly. We've been trying to say that all along.

And you want to skip because????

 

[baylormed]

And you want to skip because????

Independent study is best. I can cover 2/3/4X the amount of material in 1 hour than a lecture or PBL group covers in the same amount of time. Except I can skip lecture, but I can't skip PBL. Therefore, I prefer lectures.

I've learned that in undergrad, skipping class has probably been a very beneficial lesson. I do much better if I don't have to show up to some lectures (not all, I enjoy some of them).

 

[Dookter]

Not in this case. All lecture without mandatory attendence is the extreme and the best. The trouble with PBL is that most of your PBL time is low yield compared to studying. You will still have to study but if you had a lecture curriculum, you could skip class and study. You have to go to PBL sessions which seriously cramps your studying.

Come on folks. First and second year is going to be the last time for a long, long time (maybe your whole life) where your schedule is not dictated entirely by the needs and demands of others. PBL is like prison. You have to be there. You can't, on a regular basis say, "To hell with it. I'm going to the city library to study today...strike that...I'm going fishing."

Oh you poor, sick, deluded pre-meds.

I'm not pre-med. I'm in med school at the place you loved so much.....

And trust me, I think mandatory stuff SUCKS!!!! You're talking to a guy who basically did not enter the school building for like 2 months during gross anatomy, physiology, etc.....I skipped it all and learned 100 times more than I am learning now when I pretty much have to be at school at some point in the day for some mandatory "learning event." But I do think having a few PBL-type things thrown in once in a while is beneficial..... But I'll be the first one to admit I would have probably dropped out of medical school or shot myself in the face if I had to endure PBL-B.S. everyday as my primary source of learning....

I think the problem with PBL [many pre-meds will have no concept of this] is that it is hard to do properly.... everyone is so damn busy, including all the teachers, that it is always hard to do things right. At least with lecture the info is right there in front of you and you just learn the stuff and move on....MANY less chances for you to actually need someone to teach you something and many less places for B.S. to be inserted into your day....

 

[SeventhSon]

And you want to skip because????

trust me, this is how your first year will play out. You will have a test on monday. The Thursday before you will realize how screwed you are for this monday test. You will skip class friday and study, even though that material will be on the test.

Then you'll have a friday test, and will skip wednesday and thursday lecture to study. Eventually, you will say "gee, i really get a lot more done during those no-class study days, why don't I just do this all the time". And a new phlosophy is born that will persist. And it works great.

 

[Krisss17]

I'm not pre-med. I'm in med school at the place you loved so much.....

And trust me, I think mandatory stuff SUCKS!!!! You're talking to a guy who basically did not enter the school building for like 2 months during gross anatomy, physiology, etc.....I skipped it all and learned 100 times more than I am learning now when I pretty much have to be at school at some point in the day for some mandatory "learning event." But I do think having a few PBL-type things thrown in once in a while is beneficial..... But I'll be the first one to admit I would have probably dropped out of medical school or shot myself in the face if I had to endure PBL-B.S. everyday as my primary source of learning....

I think the problem with PBL [many pre-meds will have no concept of this] is that it is hard to do properly.... everyone is so damn busy, including all the teachers, that it is always hard to do things right. At least with lecture the info is right there in front of you and you just learn the stuff and move on....MANY less chances for you to actually need someone to teach you something and many less places for B.S. to be inserted into your day....

Well, I guess the answer to this is to make sure that if you are looking for a school that offers PBL, you would really want to research and see how dedicated the SOM is to this curriculum.

I, myself, are looking for schools that are 100% PBL. BTW, 100% doesn't mean there are no lectures at all, but it is to supplement areas that may require this more direct approach.

I'm actually appreciative of a lot of the negatives on this site about PBL...by knowing what SOMs you are going to, I can see that your point where PBL might be the worse curriculum choice. It just makes me look more intently to those schools that are really enthused about it.

BTW, there is a lot of independent study with PBL and while yes, you will need to go to meet with your group a few times a week, I think that it keeps you in step.

 

[Dookter]

And you want to skip because????

B/c lecture sucks. Look, here is what medical school is like: you have X amount of information with Y time to learn the material. Every second spent B.S.-ing or listening to some professor drone on about some B.S. or spent actually "learning" in a group is one less second you have to actually learn. I find it amazing that good middle school teachers can figure out education more than 99% of medical school profs. You LEARN the language through lectures and reading, etc. Then you APPLY the information to solidify what you learned and make sure you can actually use the information properly. You CANNOT learn by applying information that you don't know.... that is why you can't just walk into gross anatomy lab without having any idea of what is going on and expect to get much out of it....it's all about prep work with lectures or studying.... So why was high school math easy [even AP calc]??? B/c you had lecture, then homework, etc. You had time to digest material. In medical school you hardly have time to learn the language in the time given. It would be nice if you could attend lecture, take notes, read the book, work through problems, meet with your professors, form study groups, etc., and really learn the stuff. But in the end you end up like me just PRAYING you make it through the day with enough energy to actually make it to the library to actually sit down and learn.

That's the reality of medical school. On paper PBL sounds good as a learning method. In reality, most of us just want some time to study without the administration forcing us to "learn" in some other way....

 

[Dookter]

trust me, this is how your first year will play out. You will have a test on monday. The Thursday before you will realize how screwed you are for this monday test. You will skip class friday and study, even though that material will be on the test.

Then you'll have a friday test, and will skip wednesday and thursday lecture to study. Eventually, you will say "gee, i really get a lot more done during those no-class study days, why don't I just do this all the time". And a new phlosophy is born that will persist. And it works great.

EXACTLY!!!!

 

[Dookter]

Well, I guess the answer to this is to make sure that if you are looking for a school that offers PBL, you would really want to research and see how dedicated the SOM is to this curriculum.

I, myself, are looking for schools that are 100% PBL. BTW, 100% doesn't mean there are no lectures at all, but it is to supplement areas that may require this more direct approach.

I'm actually appreciative of a lot of the negatives on this site about PBL...by knowing what SOMs you are going to, I can see that your point where PBL might be the worse curriculum choice. It just makes me look more intently to those schools that are really enthused about it.

BTW, there is a lot of independent study with PBL and while yes, you will need to go to meet with your group a few times a week, I think that it keeps you in step.

Dude, be my guest to overlook Duke b/c one of their students doesn't like PBL. I'm sure Duke will be crying over the loss.....we do have trouble recruiting good students.....ha ha ha.

 

[Krisss17]

trust me, this is how your first year will play out. You will have a test on monday. The Thursday before you will realize how screwed you are for this monday test. You will skip class friday and study, even though that material will be on the test.

Then you'll have a friday test, and will skip wednesday and thursday lecture to study. Eventually, you will say "gee, i really get a lot more done during those no-class study days, why don't I just do this all the time". And a new phlosophy is born that will persist. And it works great.

You mean that this is how the student who skips lecture will face their first year...since I'm looking for PBL, and I will be going to the required meetings, and I will be prepping all along, this will not play for me.

If this was directed to me, but the poster who I inquired about the purpose of skipping, forgive me.

 

[SeventhSon]

You mean that this is how the student who skips lecture will face their first year...since I'm looking for PBL, and I will be going to the required meetings, and I will be prepping all along, this will not play for me.

If this was directed to me, but the poster who I inquired about the purpose of skipping, forgive me.

sorry i havent read this whole thread and having been paying attention to the dynamic. hehe.

 

[Dookter]

You mean that this is how the student who skips lecture will face their first year...since I'm looking for PBL, and I will be going to the required meetings, and I will be prepping all along, this will not play for me.

If this was directed to me, but the poster who I inquired about the purpose of skipping, forgive me.

No, you'll be sitting at school going nuts wishing you were one of the lucky ones in the library drinking coffee and learning while a classmate is asking about some hypothetical situation that no one cares about...

 

[Krisss17]

Oh please. Yes, PBL is "mandatory", including at my 100% PBL school, but how bad is a mandatory 3hr session twice a week? If I can tolerate it, anyone can. Anyone who thinks 6hrs a week of mandatory class time is going to "seriously cramp your studying" is spending way too much time studying.

Dammit Panda, don't try telling me you spent that much time cracking the books. Your objection is philosophical and principled, and based on what you know they're going to run into third year. But don't ruin the suprise just yet . . .

I think that this should be directed to Dooktor as well.

 

[Dookter]

I think that this should be directed to Dooktor as well.

I think you guys need to do a survey of actual medical students and see what is prefered. Even that would be biased b/c students might favor their own method, but still. I'm just saying that I've seen a little bit of both, and they both suck. Studying is pretty much the best way to learn anything...

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You don't have to go to lectures. You kind of have to go to PBL, an absence from a small group is sorely noticeable. I'd rather stay at home and study on my own, thank you.

And at my school they lower your total grade by 1% for any pbl session that you miss. Mercifully, we only have six or so a semester. Honestly, I don't know how pbl works in a pure pbl curriculum. It might be okay -- however, Diosa pointed out some of the things that suck about pbl as a first year. You just don't have the context for understanding anything in any depth, and you're not supposed to.

Adding pbl as sort of a half-a&&ed afterthought to a traditional lecture-based curriculum sucks mightily. Unfortunately, that's how it works at my school and I think the vast majority of allopathic schools. They sucker you premeds in with the thought of how cool pbl is, but once you're there, you realize you have lots better things to do with your time.

 

[baylormed]

It sounds like the OP is set on PBL. Then why ask for comments in the first place? You asked for comments and you got them.