Problem Based Learning Curriculum...

[Krisss17]

I think you guys need to do a survey of actual medical students and see what is prefered. Even that would be biased b/c students might favor their own method, but still. I'm just saying that I've seen a little bit of both, and they both suck. Studying is pretty much the best way to learn anything...

Duh...of course, studying is the best way of learning anything...and if anything PBL requires you to actually open a book and study (actually many, many books).

I've a friend who is currently in her 2nd year at LECOM-Bradenton which is 100% PBL. One of the comments that she has made to me was that friends of hers who are taking lecture based classes haven't even opened their books and are totally using their handouts. Why even get books, if you aren't going to open them.

It's obvious that the exposure that you got of PBL was poor, and it is a shame since you are putting all PBL in the same category.

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[Krisss17]

It sounds like the OP is set on PBL. Then why ask for comments in the first place? You asked for comments and you got them.

How about reading my Opening post? I didn't ask for comments. I asked if anyone knew of any allopathic schools that offer PBL.

 

[Robizzle]

I'd rather have lecture handouts that'll teach me everything than pay for overpriced textbooks...

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'd rather have lecture handouts that'll teach me everything than pay for overpriced textbooks...

And lots of times the lecture handouts essentially are books. At our school, we get a 1000+ page syllabus for most classes where each professor writes a section on what they cover. Usually, the section is in paragraph form and is as detailed as most text books. I think premeds don't really get that not reading textbooks doesn't mean that you're not reading.

 

[Dookter]

I've a friend who is currently in her 2nd year at LECOM-Bradenton which is 100% PBL.
It's obvious that the exposure that you got of PBL was poor, and it is a shame since you are putting all PBL in the same category.

Never heard of that school, but I'll go ahead and advise you to go there if you like how they do things...

And actually my experience with PBL has been pretty decent I'd say. I don't dislike my particular experience as much as I think it is just a bad way to learn.... what you don't understand is that sitting around wasting time looking up stuff that you don't know about is actually a good way to learn ONLY if you have time....in medical school you don't. You need high yield and lots of caffeine...then you rest of the time you need to chillax a little and not worry about reading huge textbooks....

 

[IceIt91]

I think that the biggest problem with PBL is that few people have any experience with it before starting med school, so it's nearly impossible to say whether or not it will REALLY be a good style of learning for you. Once you find out--it's too late to change.

Those who go to a school with a more "traditional" curriculum can still form independent PBL groups in addition to (or in place of) lectures, but it's damn near impossible for someone at a PBL-heavy school to opt out of PBL and go to lecture or self-study instead.

 

[Krisss17]

And lots of times the lecture handouts essentially are books. At our school, we get a 1000+ page syllabus for most classes where each professor writes a section on what they cover. Usually, the section is in paragraph form and is as detailed as most text books. I think premeds don't really get that not reading textbooks doesn't mean that you're not reading.

That is true, and I apologize if I made it seem that students taking lectures are not as into their studies. That was definitely not my intention. I just think that whether you are taking the lecture based curriculum or the PBL curriculum, studying is required. The curriculums are only as good as the medical school that institute them.

It is personal preference which method you prefer, and whatever you chose (if you have the opportunity), make it your own. PBL just seems like it is more interactive. You are not only looking at just one facet of a problem.

OT, Doctor Bagel, love your avatar...

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

Repeat this while taking Step 1.

the "it" i'm referring to is pbl, not med school in general. i know that there is lots of content to memorize, and if i get into my top-choice, 1/2 pbl school, i will be very thankful to be out of class around noon each day to work on that memorization. otherwise, i'm headed to an 8-5 lecture/lab school, which to me will suck mightily.

 

[DragonWell]

I'm at a 100% PBL school and I love it. To me it gives just enough of a clinical context to make learning the basic science fun, but doesn't cut into study time too much. One thing I've found is that actually reading the textbooks of medicine is much more valuable than I would have thought before starting PBL. Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a place for BRS and First Aid, but I am always amazed at how many details I retain after just sitting down and actually reading a textbook. Since the boards seem to have a propensity for minutiae, I think exposure to these details can only be helpful. I do use lectures and powerpoint slides to study occasionaly, but I often find the information overly simplified. Of course, this depends to a great extent on the ability of the lecturer. It does take a lot of discipline to sit down and read 3 or 4 dense chapters a night, though.

I think it's tough to compare PBL between schools; everyone has a different idea of how to do PBL. We switch facilitators, and even at the same school, everyone runs it quite differently. The best facilitators really help to focus your study by asking some good questions.

 

[45408]

everyone wondering if PBL is good should watch this:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un4ULrgVYMY[/YOUTUBE]


Lecture is good, because you can skip lectures.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

this debate has really been done ad naseum. the most intelligent debate on the subject was perhaps done in 1995:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIPgsKkenA

 

[Krisss17]

this debate has really been done ad naseum. the most intelligent debate on the subject was perhaps done in 1995:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIPgsKkenA

The thing is, I wasn't asking for a debate or your opinions on PBL. I was asking what allopathic schools offer this option.

I'm definitely seeing more and more pros to go towards osteopathic medicine as it seems as though there is a lot more openmindedness, and willingness to see that there is more than one option to learn.

 

[Krisss17]

I'm at a 100% PBL school and I love it. To me it gives just enough of a clinical context to make learning the basic science fun, but doesn't cut into study time too much. One thing I've found is that actually reading the textbooks of medicine is much more valuable than I would have thought before starting PBL. Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a place for BRS and First Aid, but I am always amazed at how many details I retain after just sitting down and actually reading a textbook. Since the boards seem to have a propensity for minutiae, I think exposure to these details can only be helpful. I do use lectures and powerpoint slides to study occasionaly, but I often find the information overly simplified. Of course, this depends to a great extent on the ability of the lecturer. It does take a lot of discipline to sit down and read 3 or 4 dense chapters a night, though.

I think it's tough to compare PBL between schools; everyone has a different idea of how to do PBL. We switch facilitators, and even at the same school, everyone runs it quite differently. The best facilitators really help to focus your study by asking some good questions.

Thank you, Dragonwell. I sent you a PM to ask you more info about your school.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

The thing is, I wasn't asking for a debate or your opinions on PBL. I was asking what allopathic schools offer this option.

I'm definitely seeing more and more pros to go towards osteopathic medicine as it seems as though there is a lot more openmindedness, and willingness to see that there is more than one option to learn.

ah, so new to sdn. you really didn't think this thread would de-rail into a debate? stick around for a while, and you won't be suprised next time

anyway, i don't think this thread establishes very well what "seems" to be the case at allo versus osteo schools. you're best off getting more information, like from msar or individual school websites. as i stated before, the allo schools i know of that people think of as being pbl-heavy, actually mix it in with lecture. it's not like allo schools are all dogmatic about pursuing monolithic curricula, and osteo schools have managed to transcend these paradigms in some enlightened state of multiple curricular nirvana.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

OT, Doctor Bagel, love your avatar...

Thanks. It's a picture my husband took of our kitty.

 

[Critical Mass]

PBL is a buzzword in medical education that is becoming more commonplace as a marketing tool if nothing else.

I've had to teach PBL stuff in undergrad classes, and it never improved learning. In fact, test scores went down when PBL only was employed over traditional lectures.

I think that it isn't very worthwhile, particularly when we get penalized for not participating. Given a choice, I'd take no PBL at all over any other option.

 

[DragonWell]

I don't really see much point in debating the merits of PBL. People learn and process information in dramatically different ways. PBL is definitely not going to work for everyone, but might work better for some. It's not an issue of PBL being good or bad. Hopefully, by the time you're applying to med school, you have some idea of how you learn best. Find a school that fits you. A variety of choices is a good thing.

 

[TheGalvaniFrog]

Back to OP's original question: my impression is that majority of allopathic at least pay lip service to PBL. But the degree of implementation varies. Below are some schools where PBL dominates:

Case Western/Cleveland Clinic
Cornell
Drexel (have a PBL track)
Harvard?
Pitt?
Yale?

Anybody else feel free to add/edit to this.

 

[Bernie3144]

Back to OP's original question: my impression is that majority of allopathic at least pay lip service to PBL. But the degree of implementation varies. Below are some schools where PBL dominates:

Case Western/Cleveland Clinic
Cornell
Drexel (have a PBL track)
Harvard?
Pitt?
Yale?

Anybody else feel free to add/edit to this.

Drexel has a PBL track called PIL but it is not more popular than its lecture-based track called IFM. This year, I think only 20-25% of their students are enrolled in PIL and have the option to go to IFM for year 2 if they wanted to. However, those who start in IFM cannot go to PIL

I also think Mizzou-Columbia is strictly problem-based...

 

[green453]

Drexel has a PBL track called PIL but it is not more popular than its lecture-based track called IFM. This year, I think only 20-25% of their students are enrolled in PIL and have the option to go to IFM for year 2 if they wanted to. However, those who start in IFM cannot go to PIL

I also think Mizzou-Columbia is strictly problem-based...

Mizzou is a 50/50 split lecture/PBL. I think they have an official rule that they can't have more hours in lecture than PBL time if I remember correctly.

If it matters, all the students (M1s and M2s) I talked to on my interview day there really liked the PBL system, but that may be a skewed sample because I sincerely doubt that the school would bring curriculum haters to talk to interviewees.

That said, I think Mizzou's PBL is probably better than most; they have been doing it since 1993 and it is really well integrated. Group sizes are capped at 8 and students are really immersed in it. I think it may be every day for a couple hours. It probably helps that the faculty all care a lot about making it work (perhaps because they would rather do it than lecture?) and that their are good facilities for it. Every group has their own room and students can just leave all their study material there, etc. They also gave us a copy of a paper published in some educational journal that indicated that Mizzou had seen a significant rise in Step 1 scores from pre to post PBL and that the rise was in comparison to national averages or something like that.

Hope that helps!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Mizzou is a 50/50 split lecture/PBL. I think they have an official rule that they can't have more hours in lecture than PBL time if I remember correctly.

If it matters, all the students (M1s and M2s) I talked to on my interview day there really liked the PBL system, but that may be a skewed sample because I sincerely doubt that the school would bring curriculum haters to talk to interviewees.

That said, I think Mizzou's PBL is probably better than most; they have been doing it since 1993 and it is really well integrated. Group sizes are capped at 8 and students are really immersed in it. I think it may be every day for a couple hours. It probably helps that the faculty all care a lot about making it work (perhaps because they would rather do it than lecture?) and that their are good facilities for it. Every group has their own room and students can just leave all their study material there, etc. They also gave us a copy of a paper published in some educational journal that indicated that Mizzou had seen a significant rise in Step 1 scores from pre to post PBL and that the rise was in comparison to national averages or something like that.

Hope that helps!

Hmm, that's interesting. I'm not completely convinced that pbl is a bad thing. However, as I mentioned above, it's a horrible failure when it's just thrown on as some curricular afterthought, which is how it is at my school and probably how it is at most schools. If the school has really made a concerted effort to integrate pbl and to cut down on lecture time to allow for pbl, it might work.

For all you premeds out there who like the idea of pbl, just don't be sold by a school that says they add some pbl components to their regular curriculum. If anything, it's a marketing ploy.

 

[lilnoelle]

We have some PBL at KU. We take one case per block (month) and meet maybe twice during the month. We also do a clinical interview for our PBL patient and then integrate the interview findings with our case. We don't do enough to call it a waste of time, (I don't hate it) but don't really find it all that useful either. In my group, it has really turned into a bit of a discussion time and gives us an opportunity to spend small group time with a physician, (who is fantastic, by the way) but it isn't really the way PBL is "supposed" to be. We use it to put a practical spin on what we are learning in lecture, but don't generally do any work at home for PBL preparation, nor do we have PBL exams. I'm glad it isn't more work than it is, and am even more glad that I didn't end up accepted at Mizzou. (mentioned previously) I was excited about PBL before I experienced it but now personally prefer lectures (that I skip).
As mentioned many times before, lectures are fantastic because they are skippable where group activities are required and generally a bit of a waste of time.

Ha, I think the only thing I get from our group activities is some social time with my classmates. Otherwise I'd probably be socially isolated from the class.

 

[ocwaveoc]

I'm a premed at University of Hawaii where it's PBL here. I've heard that some students have had problems in the past on the step 1 because of PBL and deficient amount of didactic learning. They've mixed in more didactic learning recently due to that issue. Personally, I'd prefer didactic over PBL during the first year of school. I mean, you don't know anything yet!! How are you suppsed to know what's wrong with the patient? As one of the previous members made the point, if during the first year you learn what is "normal" and learng what is "abnormal" during the second year, how are you supposed to know what is "abnormal" (which is how PBL works...by presenting the symptoms of patients)? It seems like a lot of research on one's own time. Perhaps didactic during the first year and didactic/PBL mixture in the second year would be better than pure/majority PBL.

Are any of the following schools mandatory PBL more than say 75% of the time?
Drexel, Mercer, Roslin Franklin, Albany, NYMC, UMDNJ, George Washington.

Also, are most of the DO schools PBL? If so which ones?? So I can avoid applying to them.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Are any of the following schools mandatory PBL more than say 75% of the time?
Drexel, Mercer, Roslin Franklin, Albany, NYMC, UMDNJ, George Washington.

Also, are most of the DO schools PBL? If so which ones?? So I can avoid applying to them.

Don't know about any of the allopathic schools other than Drexel. Drexel has a pbl path, which I believe is 100% pbl, but they also have a lecture path. So, if you hate pbl, you don't have to do it.

For DO schools, the only school where all students have to do 100% pbl is LECOM-Bradenton. Someone else was saying that ATSU-Mesa will be largely pbl-esque, too -- they're going to have a very non-traditional curriculum anyway, so it's probably best to avoid is you want normal didactics. A few other DO schools have pbl paths, but they also have lecture paths.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

To the OP: I really loved the idea of PBL before I started med school. The reality ... not so good. The whole PBL thing is fun if you don't have a million other things to do (which, as a med student, I can assure you that you will). When your time is at a premium, sitting around listening to your long-winded classmates belabor stupid, irrelevant minutiae can drive you batsh*t. I agree with the poster who said small group learning can be a great idea IF you put the group together and tailor it to where you're at in your classes. Unfortunately, med school PBL groups are put together either at random, or in such a manner as to trap you in a room with 8-10 of the most annoying individuals on the planet for several hours a week.

 

[Krisss17]

Mizzou is a 50/50 split lecture/PBL. I think they have an official rule that they can't have more hours in lecture than PBL time if I remember correctly.

If it matters, all the students (M1s and M2s) I talked to on my interview day there really liked the PBL system, but that may be a skewed sample because I sincerely doubt that the school would bring curriculum haters to talk to interviewees.

That said, I think Mizzou's PBL is probably better than most; they have been doing it since 1993 and it is really well integrated. Group sizes are capped at 8 and students are really immersed in it. I think it may be every day for a couple hours. It probably helps that the faculty all care a lot about making it work (perhaps because they would rather do it than lecture?) and that their are good facilities for it. Every group has their own room and students can just leave all their study material there, etc. They also gave us a copy of a paper published in some educational journal that indicated that Mizzou had seen a significant rise in Step 1 scores from pre to post PBL and that the rise was in comparison to national averages or something like that.

Hope that helps!

Yes, Mizzou (as you call it), seems to have a very interesting program from what I've read about it. It is one of about 10 allopathic schools I'm going to look into.

I appreciate your response.

 

[lilnoelle]

Yes, Mizzou (as you call it), seems to have a very interesting program from what I've read about it. It is one of about 10 allopathic schools I'm going to look into.

I appreciate your response.

Are you an instater or have serious Missouri ties? Its pretty hard to get into Mizzou without the above.

 

[DragonWell]

To the OP: I really loved the idea of PBL before I started med school. The reality ... not so good. The whole PBL thing is fun if you don't have a million other things to do (which, as a med student, I can assure you that you will). When your time is at a premium, sitting around listening to your long-winded classmates belabor stupid, irrelevant minutiae can drive you batsh*t. I agree with the poster who said small group learning can be a great idea IF you put the group together and tailor it to where you're at in your classes. Unfortunately, med school PBL groups are put together either at random, or in such a manner as to trap you in a room with 8-10 of the most annoying individuals on the planet for several hours a week.

Once again, I think you really need to qualify your statement. There are many approaches to PBL, not one PBL reality. From your description, it sounds like I'd probably dislike PBL at your school, too.

I've never had the experience of PBL being a waste of time. If we get to a point where we're not progressing, we quit, go read and study and come back to the case when we have an idea of how to proceed. This is encouraged if the case is not progressing.

This has happened several times lately, as we just started a Neuro block, and no one knew what the findings of the PE meant. We split, studied, came back with a pretty good idea of where the lesion was, confirmed with MRI and were done with the case in 45 minutes. To me it's a funner way to learn medicine than sitting in lecture .

 

[DrZeke]

Small price to pay a couple days a week for not having to deal with daily lectures. Plus, if y'all would grow a pair, it can be a lot of fun going after your "peers" when they start acting like idiots.

Miami @ FAU is 1/2 PBL 1/2 lecture. About 10hours/week PBL.

I think PBL is bad if they just cram it in there, but if you put ample amount of time into it like say 10 hours/week and then divide the sessions to concentrate on specific things and have very cooperative and helpful faculty leading these sessions that it can work really well. Also, if you have the same number of hours of PBL as you do lecture than PBL can complement the lecture quite nicely.

If you'd look at Panda's blog, you would see that some of the comments do mention that if they had MORE hours devoted to PBL then this style of learning would have been better. Because many schools just try to cram in a couple of sessions here and there so they can say they do small groups...it can be a big waste of time. They are often poorly run and students are not used to this type of interaction, so you get the people who don't stop talking and so on. Several schools that are heavily PBL based require your peers to evaluate you at the end of the year and help people to develop skills that have to do with working as a team. You will see how easily someone will learn to shut their face when an entire group has told them that some of their comments or long-winded ideas are not enjoyed by all

 

[SeventhSon]

Miami @ FAU is 1/2 PBL 1/2 lecture. About 10hours/week PBL.

I think PBL is bad if they just cram it in there, but if you put ample amount of time into it like say 10 hours/week and then divide the sessions to concentrate on specific things and have very cooperative and helpful faculty leading these sessions that it can work really well. Also, if you have the same number of hours of PBL as you do lecture than PBL can complement the lecture quite nicely.

If you'd look at Panda's blog, you would see that some of the comments do mention that if they had MORE hours devoted to PBL then this style of learning would have been better. Because many schools just try to cram in a couple of sessions here and there so they can say they do small groups...it can be a big waste of time. They are often poorly run and students are not used to this type of interaction, so you get the people who don't stop talking and so on. Several schools that are heavily PBL based require your peers to evaluate you at the end of the year and help people to develop skills that have to do with working as a team. You will see how easily someone will learn to shut their face when an entire group has told them that some of their comments or long-winded ideas are not enjoyed by all

you bring up a good point. When PBL is just crammed in on top of tons of lecture it tends to suck especially hard. I think as more PBL class time is alotted, the chance to make it productive goes up, but it can also make your life a living hell.

 

[WCGee]

When I interviewed at SIU (which is all PBL), they were saying exactly what the above posters said. At schools that just add in a few PBL sessions here and there because it's the trendy thing to do, the PBL tends to be poorly run and students hate it. If a school truly committs to PBL, however, the curriculum is as organized as those of more traditional formats and just as effective.

It also seems to me that the ones who really despise PBL attend schools that contain an uneven mixture of both--students are usually happier with programs that are either all PBL or all lectures. The 50/50 mix (at Missouri is it?) seems interesting, though.

 

[Krisss17]

Are you an instater or have serious Missouri ties? Its pretty hard to get into Mizzou without the above.

No, I am not an instater nor do I have close ties, but when I was looking through the Princeton Review, they wrote:

Admissions Process:
All Missouri residents (and some residents of other states) who submit an AMCAS application receive a secondary, which should be submitted as soon as possible. Almost 50 percent of the Missouri-resident applicants and [sic] at least 50 out-of-state applicants are invited to interview between October and April. Students are interviewed one-on-one by two members of the Admissions Committee. Current medical students give a short tour of the facilities and host a lunch. About a month after interviewing, applicants may be notified of the Committee's decision. Approximately 40 percent of interviewed candidates are accepted [sic]. Wait-listed candidates are not encouraged to send supplementary information.

So my feelings are that if I have the stats needed, and I write a good PS which I will somehow emphasize my interest in PBL as a curriculum that I am very interested in...I have a shot. I'll definitely not be your typical applicant when I apply and hopefully that uniqueness will get me a couple of interviews. Of course, my first goals are to make sure that I have stats (GPA/MCAT) first. Without the right numbers, I won't get past AMCAS.

For the most part, if a school gives very low odds for OOS, I would save my money...but if there is an opportunity, why not?

 

[UCLAMAN]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJeXDhI7L5g[/YOUTUBE]

 

[UCLAMAN]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6ZgAJIqi24[/YOUTUBE]

 

[CCLCMer]

I was curious to know whether there are any allopathic medical schools that offer PBL. One of the reasons, I would consider DO over allopathic is for this learning option (if allopathic doesn't offer it). From what I've researched, I really feel that PBL would work best for me.

Appreciate any responses.

CCLCM is a PBL school. We spend about a third of our contact hours in PBL sessions. But this program also has a huge research component to it, so you shouldn't apply here if you don't want to do research.

I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but I just want to tell you that I really enjoy PBL. I think a lot of people who have bad experiences with it go to schools that try to add a few random PBL sessions on top of a traditional curriculum with a huge class. It's not surprising that PBL doesn't work very well if you do it that way. There is definitely a learning curve and you have to practice to get good at PBL. At the beginning of this year, we were definitely NOT very good at it. But my school's program was built around PBL, and it's very well incorporated into our curriculum. Even some of my classmates who started out as skeptics have turned into converts.

 

[smq123]

Lectures, I found can at times be the major waste of time. It is one thing if the instructor is engaging, but there are many lectures that are just a way to force feed information...the only interactions you may find in lectures are between the students sitting in front of the class, or those students who think it is a perfect time to have a conversation with their next door neighbor.

I just think that the PBL enables one to integrate the different areas required. Of course, I am a non-traditional, so my feelings my be a little more biased. Lectures are a little bit more "safe" than PBL, and for traditional students that are going directly from high school, to their UG school to their medical school, I can see how this type of learning can be scary. Just don't discount it because it is different.

I'm interested as to where you got your ideas about med school lecture. I agree, undergrad lectures were very boring and just drowsing while the professor droned on and on. To a little extent, some 1st year lectures were like that (although not all). However, my experience with 2nd year lectures has been wonderful. We have actual clinicians come in and talk about their area of specialty, so you get to hear the clinical stuff as it is really practiced today. That's pretty neat. Many of them share clinical cases during their lecture, so you get to see their clinical reasoning process. Some of them even bring in patients to come and talk to us about what the disease has been like for them. It's also a great opportunity for the students - a lot of our professors will be our clerkship directors and attendings, and if you get really interested in someone's lecture, it's easy to come up after the lecture and ask to see patients with them.

True, some of the lecturers have been kind of dull. (Some of the pathologists are very, very dry - but the radiologists have been highly entertaining and informative, so go figure.) But you could argue that some PBL sessions are less productive and more frustrating than others. So it goes both ways.

I don't think that people necessarily discount PBL because they assume that it is different and inferior. But, personally (and again, this is my own opinion), I want to learn about gallstones from someone in GI. I want to learn about HIV from an ID specialist. I want to learn about chemotherapy from an oncologist. I DON'T want to learn this stuff from my classmates or from a group facilitator (who may not be an expert in these areas.)

 

[Bernie3144]

Don't know about any of the allopathic schools other than Drexel. Drexel has a pbl path, which I believe is 100% pbl, but they also have a lecture path. So, if you hate pbl, you don't have to do it.

For DO schools, the only school where all students have to do 100% pbl is LECOM-Bradenton. Someone else was saying that ATSU-Mesa will be largely pbl-esque, too -- they're going to have a very non-traditional curriculum anyway, so it's probably best to avoid is you want normal didactics. A few other DO schools have pbl paths, but they also have lecture paths.

Drexel PBL is known as "PIL" and is mostly PBL but does have resource sessions which might as well be called lectures.. However, most students that go to Drexel take the IFM lecture route.

 

[DrZeke]

Drexel PBL is known as "PIL" and is mostly PBL but does have resource sessions which might as well be called lectures.. However, most students that go to Drexel take the IFM lecture route.

I believe that in a class of 225 there are approximately 60 each year who pick PIL. That is still a substantial amount if you ask me. And you don't have to do it for the full 2 years. You can leave after 1st year if you don't like it and you can decide to do it or not about 4 weeks into the beginning of school.

 

[Krisss17]

I'm interested as to where you got your ideas about med school lecture. I agree, undergrad lectures were very boring and just drowsing while the professor droned on and on. To a little extent, some 1st year lectures were like that (although not all). However, my experience with 2nd year lectures has been wonderful. We have actual clinicians come in and talk about their area of specialty, so you get to hear the clinical stuff as it is really practiced today. That's pretty neat. Many of them share clinical cases during their lecture, so you get to see their clinical reasoning process. Some of them even bring in patients to come and talk to us about what the disease has been like for them. It's also a great opportunity for the students - a lot of our professors will be our clerkship directors and attendings, and if you get really interested in someone's lecture, it's easy to come up after the lecture and ask to see patients with them.

True, some of the lecturers have been kind of dull. (Some of the pathologists are very, very dry - but the radiologists have been highly entertaining and informative, so go figure.) But you could argue that some PBL sessions are less productive and more frustrating than others. So it goes both ways.

I don't think that people necessarily discount PBL because they assume that it is different and inferior. But, personally (and again, this is my own opinion), I want to learn about gallstones from someone in GI. I want to learn about HIV from an ID specialist. I want to learn about chemotherapy from an oncologist. I DON'T want to learn this stuff from my classmates or from a group facilitator (who may not be an expert in these areas.)

Well, that is refreshing to know, and yes, unfortunately my experiences with lectures is undergrad. You also bring up some good arguments, which I appreciate.

 

[Krisss17]

[youtube]K6ZgAJIqi24[/youtube]

So what does this have to do with my question? I went through 50% of it, and this can probably appropriate for medical students in any curriculum.

 

[Johnny_D]

Drexel has a great reputation with their PIL program.

 

[DrZeke]

Drexel has a great reputation with their PIL program.

I agree. When I interviewed there last year I was quite impressed with the organization of their PIL curriculum and the way it seems to work.

Don't knock PBL until you talk to the students at that school. I think we've come to the conclusion on this thread that PBL depends on the school and depends on the organization and amount of time put into it by the school itself. This includes faculty members and administrators. If the school is just using it as a marketing tool then it shows. IF the school is trying to push limits and move into a different place in medical education then that will be evident and most likely PBL will work well.

Good luck to all of you in your choices.

 

[Bernie3144]

I believe that in a class of 225 there are approximately 60 each year who pick PIL. That is still a substantial amount if you ask me. And you don't have to do it for the full 2 years. You can leave after 1st year if you don't like it and you can decide to do it or not about 4 weeks into the beginning of school.

DUCOM Class of 2010 is 57 out of 255. This is far from being a PBL dominant school. I will probably do PIL next year but most people will do IFM. It's just hard to resist getting gross anatomy done by the end of october (year 1) and 2 straight months of clinical experience at the end of year 1.

Drexel does advertise that there are some problem-based aspects in IFM. There is a small amount of small group discussion with professors that deal with different clinical scenarios in IFM as well (maybe 1-2 for several classes each module). Each module in first year IFM is named by a different clinical problem and they usually go through things in each subject that has to do with that clinical problem... but there is not a specific clinical situation that you need to answer at the end of the module with your knowledge from every subject.

There is an orientation for PIL at the beginning of the year where anybody who is interested can go to see what it is like.

 

[DocWoodyBear]

During my interview at UMiami -FAU campus (in Boca Raton, FL)

They tell me they are switching over to almost completely PBL. The professors are going to lecture very little. Most class time will be PBL.

This is a private school so if you want to apply from out of state your chances are good...

I picked the main campus (Jackson/Miami) instead because they have mostly lectures which can be downloaded via Podcasting and internet site (beach-time anyone?). You might want to consider that too (just check both campuses when applying). Go Miami!!!!!!

I hope that helps you in your quest Kriss. The UMiami Med has two campuses but one application.

 

[WinneDaFoo]

but dont most of the top 10 schools incorporate pbl...so i mean...it has to be somewhat useful...

or at least try to make you feel like a doctor.

[shrug]

 

[DrZeke]

During my interview at UMiami -FAU campus (in Boca Raton, FL)

They tell me they are switching over to almost completely PBL. The professors are going to lecture very little. Most class time will be PBL.

This is a private school so if you want to apply from out of state your chances are good...

I picked the main campus (Jackson/Miami) instead because they have mostly lectures which can be downloaded via Podcasting and internet site (beach-time anyone?). You might want to consider that too (just check both campuses when applying). Go Miami!!!!!!

I hope that helps you in your quest Kriss. The UMiami Med has two campuses but one application.

Hmm...didn't read this thread...did you...

If anyone wants to know about PBL for UM@FAU perhaps you should read my earlier post with a bit more accurate info...

 

[UCLAMAN]

So what does this have to do with my question? I went through 50% of it, and this can probably appropriate for medical students in any curriculum.

it has nothing to do with your question...just thought i would post it...sheesh. no need to go uptight pre-med style on me.

 

[DocWoodyBear]

Hmm...didn't read this thread...did you...

If anyone wants to know about PBL for UM@FAU perhaps you should read my earlier post with a bit more accurate info...

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but the med students that were talking to me during the interview told me that they are changing the curriculum. They are increasing the PBL at FAU.

They told me that what happens usually during the 2nd year will now start the 1st year, and you'll see the professor very little of the time.

 

[Zippership]

Does anyone know approximately how much PBL HMS New Pathway has per week? For anyone who goes to Harvard (or knows!), does it dominate the curriculum and do you think it's well done?

 

[Critical Mass]

Does anyone know approximately how much PBL HMS New Pathway has per week? For anyone who goes to Harvard (or knows!), does it dominate the curriculum and do you think it's well done?

I've been told that PBL was invented at Harvard.