Professionalism

[831929]

As many of us start third year, professionalism begins to be a highlighted topic in almost any speech I've heard so far. I would like to think we as students also starting thinking about it in new ways as we join the floor and start participating in a professional setting. I, myself, have started to think about how I'd deal with certain situations and what is best way to handle encounters with classmates, doctors, and other professionals we interact with. I was hoping that maybe the SDN a community would share some of their experiences in situations where they made a better judgement call and handled a situation in a way that was more productive and helpful, maybe even changing the persons mind on a certain topic or practice. What did you guys find most helpful in helping you grow into that role of team leader?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Gorne]

As many of us start third year, professionalism begins to be a highlighted topic in almost any speech I've heard so far. I would like to think we as students also starting thinking about it in new ways as we join the floor and start participating in a professional setting. I, myself, have started to think about how I'd deal with certain situations and what is best way to handle encounters with classmates, doctors, and other professionals we interact with. I was hoping that maybe the SDN a community would share some of their experiences in situations where they made a better judgement call and handled a situation in a way that was more productive and helpful, maybe even changing the persons mind on a certain topic or practice. What did you guys find most helpful in helping you grow into that role of team leader?

As a 3rd year medical student what they mean by professionalism is this.
1. Don't lie
2. Be respectful of everyone, the janitor has a more important job than you.
3. Do not try to 1-up anyone, interns, residents, attendings, fellow students. You're place is at the bottom even when your intern forgets the 3rd component of Beck's triad. Unless you're directly asked, you don't know it either.
4. Don't lie

You will be doing no team leading / making judgement calls/ changing peoples minds on topics. I don't know where you got that impression from.

 

[mimelim]

As a 3rd year medical student what they mean by professionalism is this.
1. Don't lie
2. Be respectful of everyone, the janitor has a more important job than you.
3. Do not try to 1-up anyone, interns, residents, attendings, fellow students. You're place is at the bottom even when your intern forgets the 3rd component of Beck's triad. Unless you're directly asked, you don't know it either.
4. Don't lie

You will be doing no team leading / making judgement calls/ changing peoples minds on topics. I don't know where you got that impression from.

This is the starting point on professionalism and I can not like this post again.

I always shake my head when I hear medical students on SDN and IRL complaining about professionalism. When you see the attitudes and recklessness that makes it through into residency, you wouldn't be surprised by how much it is emphasized in medical school.

 

[Goro]

As a 3rd year medical student what they mean by professionalism is this.
1. Don't lie
2. Be respectful of everyone, the janitor has a more important job than you.
3. Do not try to 1-up anyone, interns, residents, attendings, fellow students. You're place is at the bottom even when your intern forgets the 3rd component of Beck's triad. Unless you're directly asked, you don't know it either.
4. Don't lie

You will be doing no team leading / making judgement calls/ changing peoples minds on topics. I don't know where you got that impression from.

To this add:
Show up on time
Don't leave until all your work is done
Treat rotations as employment, not schooling.
Your clinical Faculty take professionalism VERY seriously. A lack of it will hurt your career
Always try to learn something, even if your preceptor is too busy with EMRs or similar.
Try to remember that rotations are not an arms race where you have to one-up your classmates with you doing new procedures.

 

[Stagg737]

As a 3rd year medical student what they mean by professionalism is this.
1. Don't lie
2. Be respectful of everyone, the janitor has a more important job than you.
3. Do not try to 1-up anyone, interns, residents, attendings, fellow students. You're place is at the bottom even when your intern forgets the 3rd component of Beck's triad. Unless you're directly asked, you don't know it either.
4. Don't lie

You will be doing no team leading / making judgement calls/ changing peoples minds on topics. I don't know where you got that impression from.

Great post which should be taken to heart by every entering M3. The only one of these that I think gets frustrating at times can be #3. There were one or two occasions where I saw an attending do something that was blatantly incorrect and that could have potentially harmed a patient (starting psychiatric meds unnecessarily before consulting psych). Fortunately those attendings knew I was entering the field and were open to my input, but in many instances it's often best to stay quiet as you'll just get berated and the physician will do their own thing anyway.

Another thing I'd add is that expectations aren't clear, don't be afraid to ask and ask early. It looks a lot worse if you don't know what you're doing during second or third week of a rotation than to ask what might be a silly question and look clueless on the first or second day. Your superiors will likely appreciate it later when you're not getting in the way or making stupid mistakes.

Treat rotations as employment, not schooling.

This is another great tip assuming the student actually understands what it means to hold an actual job, which I think is actually the source of a lot of professionalism issues. The kids that go straight from HS to UG to med school without holding a real job don't have the irl experience to know what professionalism actually looks like. I don't think I knew any non-trad med students who didn't understand what professionalism meant in the clinical setting, but I knew plenty of traditional students who seemed completely clueless.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

As a 3rd year medical student what they mean by professionalism is this.
1. Don't lie
2. Be respectful of everyone, the janitor has a more important job than you.
3. Do not try to 1-up anyone, interns, residents, attendings, fellow students. You're place is at the bottom even when your intern forgets the 3rd component of Beck's triad. Unless you're directly asked, you don't know it either.
4. Don't lie

You will be doing no team leading / making judgement calls/ changing peoples minds on topics. I don't know where you got that impression from.

To this add:
Show up on time
Don't leave until all your work is done
Treat rotations as employment, not schooling.
Your clinical Faculty take professionalism VERY seriously. A lack of it will hurt your career
Always try to learn something, even if your preceptor is too busy with EMRs or similar.
Try to remember that rotations are not an arms race where you have to one-up your classmates with you doing new procedures.

Great points as well as others mentioned in the thread. I would like to garner other people's inputs on what to do in the situations where you've seen classmates or people from other schools that have violated these. In my situation I simply did nothing but keep my nose clean. Is this the right action to take?

 

[Goro]

Great points as well as others mentioned in the thread. I would like to garner other people's inputs on what to do in the situations where you've seen classmates or people from other schools that have violated these. In my situation I simply did nothing but keep my nose clean. Is this the right action to take?

This is great fodder for interview questions. It's also really hard to answer. Does your school have an honor code. At the USNA, it's "a cadet will not lie cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do."

On the other hand, context is everything. Someone leaving early or coming in late? That's on them (and the preceptor). Someone stealing drugs, or endangering patients? I think you know what to do.

 

[831929]

As a 3rd year medical student what they mean by professionalism is this.
1. Don't lie
2. Be respectful of everyone, the janitor has a more important job than you.
3. Do not try to 1-up anyone, interns, residents, attendings, fellow students. You're place is at the bottom even when your intern forgets the 3rd component of Beck's triad. Unless you're directly asked, you don't know it either.
4. Don't lie

You will be doing no team leading / making judgement calls/ changing peoples minds on topics. I don't know where you got that impression from.

I wasn't thinking of of in the long run. How do we start building those skills as medical students. For example, when we see another student doing something wrong, there are many ways to address that and some are better than others. I'm sure with certain experience we get better but just wanted some positive posts about how students developed these skills. Not planning on changing medical opinions, etc.

 

[831929]

Thanks everyone for the posts. I agree and completely understand what is implied by professionalism. I was just lookings for personal positive experience stories of how people grew during their clinical years in becoming better prepared to handle situations as future physicians in regards to professionalism. How to deal with colleagues when you disagree, properly addressing an issue when you feel something could be done better, etc.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

My experiences in this arena usually come to one conclusion: the best way to deal with unprofessionalism in others is just to keep doing your job the way you are supposed to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[TRPMinus]

As many of us start third year, professionalism begins to be a highlighted topic in almost any speech I've heard so far. I would like to think we as students also starting thinking about it in new ways as we join the floor and start participating in a professional setting. I, myself, have started to think about how I'd deal with certain situations and what is best way to handle encounters with classmates, doctors, and other professionals we interact with. I was hoping that maybe the SDN a community would share some of their experiences in situations where they made a better judgement call and handled a situation in a way that was more productive and helpful, maybe even changing the persons mind on a certain topic or practice. What did you guys find most helpful in helping you grow into that role of team leader?

come up with a few standard witty replies for when surgeons tell you you're a waste of space

 

[Stagg737]

I wasn't thinking of of in the long run. How do we start building those skills as medical students. For example, when we see another student doing something wrong, there are many ways to address that and some are better than others. I'm sure with certain experience we get better but just wanted some positive posts about how students developed these skills. Not planning on changing medical opinions, etc.

Imo the best way to approach another med student about it is to just be polite and up front. The few times I did this with other med students was something like "Hey, so I noticed during X event you did/said Y thing. I'm pretty sure you're actually supposed to do/say Z as this is what I was taught (by person P, even better if it was your current attending as you're helping that student understand the current attending's preferences)." Some students are receptive to help, some are jerks. Most of the time I'd say just do your own thing unless it's something pretty obvious/serious or a mistake they keep making even after being corrected. Also, I felt my colleagues were more receptive to "heads up" kind of help than major corrections unless they knew I knew more about the area than them are were coming to me for help.

Thanks everyone for the posts. I agree and completely understand what is implied by professionalism. I was just lookings for personal positive experience stories of how people grew during their clinical years in becoming better prepared to handle situations as future physicians in regards to professionalism. How to deal with colleagues when you disagree, properly addressing an issue when you feel something could be done better, etc.

When you're dealing with other med students, just be polite and ask them why they did what they did. If they're normal people they might be a little defensive, but they'll at least let you know why and might even ask what you would have done. Some colleagues will just suck, medicine seems to attract a decent number of those people, but if that's the case then just do your own thing unless you see them do something that could legitimately endanger a patient. Then speak up in a firm but polite manner.

When you see a superior start a treatment or do something you think is wrong or don't really understand, imo the best thing to do is just ask why they did it. I always phrased it something like "So I noticed with Mr. Patient that you started treatment X. I was wondering why you decided to treat them with X instead of with Y, as I thought Y was the recommended therapy." It's a good approach because you're presenting it as you trying to learn from them as well as giving them a chance to teach/flex their knowledge for you (feed their ego). Most of the time you get an insight into the attending thought-process which helps you understand how they think, even if it's not necessarily right. Sometimes they'll get annoyed/dismissive and you just have to suck it up and move on. Occasionally, you find out they legit have no clue what they're doing ("Oh, I just always use treatment X for patients with that disease) and you learn that maybe this isn't someone to emulate.

Regardless of who you're dealing with, just be polite, respectful, and friendly and usually you won't have issues. Be inquisitive instead of condescending and try and convey that you're questioning them in order to expand your own knowledge and not to question or judge theirs. Additionally, be a good observer. If you watch and see that an attending doesn't like to be questioned or teach, then don't badger them with questions. If you notice that a resident loves to be asked questions and share their knowledge, use them as as a go-to instead of the attending that doesn't like to be bothered. As a whole though, just be polite, work hard, and don't get in the way and most of the time you'll be just fine.

My experiences in this arena usually come to one conclusion: the best way to deal with unprofessionalism in others is just to keep doing your job the way you are supposed to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Agree, only exception I'd add to this is if you see something another medical student is doing that will endanger the patient. Outside of surgery rotations I can't think of many examples where a med student would have the potential to harm a patient unless they did something really stupid, but I'm interested to hear how attendings/residents think med students should handle this among each other.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Agree, only exception I'd add to this is if you see something another medical student is doing that will endanger the patient. Outside of surgery rotations I can't think of many examples where a med student would have the potential to harm a patient unless they did something really stupid, but I'm interested to hear how attendings/residents think med students should handle this among each other.

Never in all my years have I seen a student be in a position to do something that will endanger the patient. Except maybe sneeze on them/not wear PPE. We aren’t in the time of House of God or Intern Blues, thankfully. On the other hand, going around policing your fellow students’ activities makes you look like a suck-up. Or if it’s happening among themselves, I would just be amused as it’s one egg teaching another how to be a chicken. If the student is doing something like stealing your cases, or something that affects your rotation, then by all means have at it. Otherwise, leave them be, and just do your own job.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Weirdest incident I had was a student ask me for help on a topic then turn around and publicly proclaim he taught me the material acted he like was the authority on it. I sort of just ignored it but perhaps I should have let him have it.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

When you see a superior start a treatment or do something you think is wrong or don't really understand, imo the best thing to do is just ask why they did it. I always phrased it something like "So I noticed with Mr. Patient that you started treatment X. I was wondering why you decided to treat them with X instead of with Y, as I thought Y was the recommended therapy." It's a good approach because you're presenting it as you trying to learn from them as well as giving them a chance to teach/flex their knowledge for you (feed their ego). Most of the time you get an insight into the attending thought-process which helps you understand how they think, even if it's not necessarily right. Sometimes they'll get annoyed/dismissive and you just have to suck it up and move on. Occasionally, you find out they legit have no clue what they're doing ("Oh, I just always use treatment X for patients with that disease) and you learn that maybe this isn't someone to emulate.

100% this. There were definitely a handful of times when I had to correct someone above me; the secret is to do it without showing them up.

I’ll also add not to show up your resident in front of the attending unless it’s literally life or death at that moment. It’s better to pull them aside after the patient presentation and let them know if you noticed something incorrect or that had changed with a patient both of you saw. If it’s clinically relevant, they can give the correction to the attending when appropriate, if not, then no harm/no foul. This will loosen a little bit fourth year, particularly if you’re on a sub-I or sub-I-like rotation, but I’d stick really closely to that rule early on.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

Weirdest incident I had was a student ask me for help on a topic then turn around and publicly proclaim he taught me the material acted he like was the authority on it. I sort of just ignored it but perhaps I should have let him have it.

Friggin’ gunners.

 

[Goro]

Never in all my years have I seen a student be in a position to do something that will endanger the patient. Except maybe sneeze on them/not wear PPE. We aren’t in the time of House of God or Intern Blues, thankfully. On the other hand, going around policing your fellow students’ activities makes you look like a suck-up. Or if it’s happening among themselves, I would just be amused as it’s one egg teaching another how to be a chicken. If the student is doing something like stealing your cases, or something that affects your rotation, then by all means have at it. Otherwise, leave them be, and just do your own job.

 

[naijacardriodoc]

this thread should be stickied