What sort of scores/pubs/extracurriculars are the top IM programs looking for? Top as in Penn, Mayo, Columbia, not just the big 4.
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Who else is apart of your big 4, you only mentioned three?
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BWH MGH Hopkins UCSF
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1. High step (ideally 240+, now maybe 245 or 250+)
2. AOA (maybe GHHS)
3. Honors / MSPE ranking (Top or next to top at very least)
4. Medical school pedigree
5. Published Research
The more you have, the better. Ya dingus
2. AOA (maybe GHHS)
3. Honors / MSPE ranking (Top or next to top at very least)
4. Medical school pedigree
5. Published Research
The more you have, the better. Ya dingus
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Think about the movie Eyes Wide Shut...and you’re almost there
What about a more mid tier academic program? So Tufts, Jefferson, BU, Wake, that sort of program.
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dude, you know your stats...if you are questioning whether you meet their criteria, then you probably don't meet them...doesn't mean you can't apply but you should apply to safety programs as well where you meet their requirements.
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1. 230+ Step 1 and/or 240+ CK
2. Some research (abstracts, posters, etc.)
3. IM Honors, but HP may suffice.
4. Decent class rank.
Other factors may include east coast ties, at least for the programs you mention.
Also, this is just a medical student's guess.
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As someone who went through the match last year, the "ideal" IM applicant is someone with high Step 1/CK (250+), good amount of published research with ideally PhD or research fellowship with time off in med school, AOA, honors in all clerkships (honors in IM is critical), stellar letters (letters carry more weight than a lot of people make them out to be), top medical school. Having a unique background and career path is also a big bonus. Other things like involvement in extracurriculars and GHHS mean less, though maybe GHHS will carry more weight in the future once more schools open chapters. This ideal applicant is pretty rare. Even with a close-to-ideal application, it's very difficult to land interviews at all the top places. There's a lot of uncertainty to the process and there's a lot of regional and school-specific bias. Programs will more likely interview applicants from a school they've recent had residents from and have had experience working with their graduates. They're more likely to interview applicants who have ties to the region and a real reason to match at the program. I wouldn't lump Mayo in the same category as the others you listed as it's much easier to get an interview there from my experience. At my institution, it seemed like BWH and Penn were the toughest to crack into. Between the top applicants at my school, we all got interviews and rejections from different places and there was seemingly no rhyme or reason as to why. Thankfully there's a ton of great IM programs out there.
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270 on steps 1 to 3, including CS. Preference to candidates who see the future, big bonus if you can conjur Osler.
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Had a threesome with Osler and Marie Currie's ghosts. Got me into MGH. Would not recommend.
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In order of importance:
1. Medical school pedigree (including your letter writers)
2. MSPE/AOA
3. Research
4. Step 1 score
5. Additional extracurricular activities
This probably true for most top programs. At these institutions, where you come from and trained at is very important. Many "good" applicants from Hopkins,Harvard,UCSF will match at top programs, whereas only "great" applicants from Tufts,BU,Wake have a chance at matching at similar institutions. At mid-tier programs, the MSPE/AOA status and Step 1 score probably gains more weight.
For example, a bad step 1 score (<230) and middle-of-the-pack ranking will torpedo most applications at competitive programs. However, if you come from Hopkins, has good letters, and has research to boot, you have a decent shot at matching at upper-tier programs even with relatively-lackluster academics.
Finally, although I liked Mayo a lot more than I thought I would when I interviewed there, it is a tier below the other institutions you've mentioned in terms of clinical training and academic reputation.
As someone who applied internal medicine, knows a bunch of current IM residents, and thoroughly stalked the interview invite thread over the past few years, I'd say the following:
If you come from a top 5 medical school, you can probably get at least one top 5 interview with just these minimum requirements:
1. Step score:
- >240
2. Publications
- At least a couple
3. Med school grades
- Maybe ok to have 1-2 high passes, assuming they're not in medicine
If you didn't go to Harvard/Penn/UCSF/Stanford/Hopkins for medical school then...
1. Step score
- The higher the better, but this alone honestly isn't going to do anything for you.
2. Publications
- To impress? Better have a significant number (like 10) or a publication in a high impact journal like NEJM
3. Medical school grades
- honors on honors on honors
4. AOA
- MOST IMPORTANT. If you're not AOA, then you need to have an epic step score or a first author NEJM or a personal connection to someone at that program who's going to pull strings. The only person at my top 20 medical school who got a top 5 interview was the one applicant who was AOA (despite not having the most pubs or the highest step score). Coincidence? I think not.
If you come from a top 5 medical school, you can probably get at least one top 5 interview with just these minimum requirements:
1. Step score:
- >240
2. Publications
- At least a couple
3. Med school grades
- Maybe ok to have 1-2 high passes, assuming they're not in medicine
If you didn't go to Harvard/Penn/UCSF/Stanford/Hopkins for medical school then...
1. Step score
- The higher the better, but this alone honestly isn't going to do anything for you.
2. Publications
- To impress? Better have a significant number (like 10) or a publication in a high impact journal like NEJM
3. Medical school grades
- honors on honors on honors
4. AOA
- MOST IMPORTANT. If you're not AOA, then you need to have an epic step score or a first author NEJM or a personal connection to someone at that program who's going to pull strings. The only person at my top 20 medical school who got a top 5 interview was the one applicant who was AOA (despite not having the most pubs or the highest step score). Coincidence? I think not.
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Wow!
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I probably wouldn’t entirely agree with that above poster!
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But s/he applied to internal medicine, knows a BUNCH of IM residents, and thoroughly stalked the interview invite threads for the last several years!
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I think we put so weight thought into notions on SDN like the one above about upper tier vs. lower tier applicants getting into places. The flaw is these notion’s are strengthened by how much someone’s willing to buy into it. If you’re from a mid/low tier-MD school, this argument may seem comforting and you won’t be incentivized to go further than match lists to confirm this.l
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Strong addition. Im sure the typical med student in this thread titled "profile of top IM applicants" is deciding between MGH, Hopkins, Penn and Downstate.
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They want to stay in NY so it's obviously NYU, Cornell, Columbia, Downstate
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I have nothing against Downstate. I'm sure they train just fine physicians. That post had nothing to do with this thread though.
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Has anyone said saving orphans from burning orphanage?
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Saving orphans from burning orphanage.
Some applicants on here would set the orphanage on fire just to say they saved the orphans from a burning orphanage.
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Swing and a miss...
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But c'mon man...he knows a bunch of internal medicine residents AND he stalked the interview thread last year.
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The publications thing is overdone but otherwise I mostly agree.
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I think SDN makes a lot bigger deal out of STATS!@#! than is necessary at top programs. Granted, what follows is only anecdotal and I haven't matched yet, so maybe I am wrong. But I have gotten many more interviews than I was expecting at some of these places coming from a nondescript allopathic school.
I can tell you for interviews, it seems you need a bare minimum of excellent track record in medical school. Certainly it's a high bar, but compared to the average SDN user it's not too outrageous. But exceeding the stats/numbers filters by a wide margin doesn't seem to help as much at that point as having an interesting personal statement, hobby, background, unique path or background, etc.
So, you need say: LCME accredited school within the USA, Step 1 > 245, H in medicine, >50% H in 3rd year clerkships, ANY research or scholarly activity experience, plus either AOA or Top 10 medical school. Once that filter is applied, I get the impression that programs will try to interview applicants they think will make for an interesting, competent, and complete intern class. Full stop. If there are interview slots left, they will relax the filter and look again.
Some programs will start with a more strict or more relaxed filter. WashU loves strong numbers more than most places it seems, so it's not surprising I heard from them a couple days later than my classmates with better scores. But I met the basic "performance in medical school criteria" above so I still heard from them eventually. Meanwhile, UCSF and MGH could have easily invited the ~350 applicants with the best stats and most publications to interview and I definitely would NOT have been given the time of day. Instead I'll be fortunate to interview at these places (though to be fair I probably won't get to match at these programs anyway!).
What I think is underrated on this forum by far is having something -- anything -- in your application that will make the associate PD reading your application say "I want to meet this person". Partly out of strategy but mostly out of urgency, my actual ERAS application is pretty sparse. I am a non-trad and could have put 10 years worth of my resume on myERAS and exceeded the average number of work experiences, volunteer experiences, research experiences, etc. tracked by the NRMP data. I could have put 80 small activities and experiences on my application. Instead I limited it to 10 big things I thought were the most interesting/unique, most relevant/recent, or that would come across as most helpful in making the transition from MS4 to PGY1.
Thus, unlike this rambling post, my application was short and sweet and told one sorta clear, sorta short story. (I didn't see any of my IM classmates' applications, but looked at ERAS for some classmates applying to gas, pediatrics, med-peds, etc. to see they did a LOT more stuff during medical school than I did!)
While I meet the relatively lenient basic stat criteria I set forth above, I do not have the highest Step 1 score of medicine applicants even from my own class. I don't even have a Step 2 CK score back yet (though I will soon) and went through invitation season without it. Yet of applications to university IM programs (including all the ones at "the top" according to this forum except Penn, Vanderbilt, and Michigan to which I did not apply), I got interview invitations at 71% of them and waitlisted for interviews at an additional 5% (maybe I could have converted these to interviews by updating the PD with my latest grades/scores and expressing interest but at that point I felt I had enough interviews so I just let it be).
Maybe I would have done marginally better with a Step 1 score of 270 or honors in EVERYTHING but I don't think it would have made too much of a difference. Sorry if by relating my own experience I sound like a self-absorbed jerk who is bragging...I will be able to let you know if my hypothesis is correct come Match Day, and only pose it in case it might help others later on.
I can tell you for interviews, it seems you need a bare minimum of excellent track record in medical school. Certainly it's a high bar, but compared to the average SDN user it's not too outrageous. But exceeding the stats/numbers filters by a wide margin doesn't seem to help as much at that point as having an interesting personal statement, hobby, background, unique path or background, etc.
So, you need say: LCME accredited school within the USA, Step 1 > 245, H in medicine, >50% H in 3rd year clerkships, ANY research or scholarly activity experience, plus either AOA or Top 10 medical school. Once that filter is applied, I get the impression that programs will try to interview applicants they think will make for an interesting, competent, and complete intern class. Full stop. If there are interview slots left, they will relax the filter and look again.
Some programs will start with a more strict or more relaxed filter. WashU loves strong numbers more than most places it seems, so it's not surprising I heard from them a couple days later than my classmates with better scores. But I met the basic "performance in medical school criteria" above so I still heard from them eventually. Meanwhile, UCSF and MGH could have easily invited the ~350 applicants with the best stats and most publications to interview and I definitely would NOT have been given the time of day. Instead I'll be fortunate to interview at these places (though to be fair I probably won't get to match at these programs anyway!).
What I think is underrated on this forum by far is having something -- anything -- in your application that will make the associate PD reading your application say "I want to meet this person". Partly out of strategy but mostly out of urgency, my actual ERAS application is pretty sparse. I am a non-trad and could have put 10 years worth of my resume on myERAS and exceeded the average number of work experiences, volunteer experiences, research experiences, etc. tracked by the NRMP data. I could have put 80 small activities and experiences on my application. Instead I limited it to 10 big things I thought were the most interesting/unique, most relevant/recent, or that would come across as most helpful in making the transition from MS4 to PGY1.
Thus, unlike this rambling post, my application was short and sweet and told one sorta clear, sorta short story. (I didn't see any of my IM classmates' applications, but looked at ERAS for some classmates applying to gas, pediatrics, med-peds, etc. to see they did a LOT more stuff during medical school than I did!)
While I meet the relatively lenient basic stat criteria I set forth above, I do not have the highest Step 1 score of medicine applicants even from my own class. I don't even have a Step 2 CK score back yet (though I will soon) and went through invitation season without it. Yet of applications to university IM programs (including all the ones at "the top" according to this forum except Penn, Vanderbilt, and Michigan to which I did not apply), I got interview invitations at 71% of them and waitlisted for interviews at an additional 5% (maybe I could have converted these to interviews by updating the PD with my latest grades/scores and expressing interest but at that point I felt I had enough interviews so I just let it be).
Maybe I would have done marginally better with a Step 1 score of 270 or honors in EVERYTHING but I don't think it would have made too much of a difference. Sorry if by relating my own experience I sound like a self-absorbed jerk who is bragging...I will be able to let you know if my hypothesis is correct come Match Day, and only pose it in case it might help others later on.
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Succinct! Excellent use of emphasis.
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The only people who underrate this aspect are the ones who don't know WTF they're talking about (med students/applicants in particular). Those of us who have been through the process a time or two, and who have been on both sides of the desk, think this is probably the most important part of your application.
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If your app is good enough to be a derm applicant then you are a competitive IM resident for top programs.
