Program attempting to dismiss me

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Newyawk said:
Disobedience would be "no i think it should be done this way, Dr. X, not that way". What he said was "my left hand hurts but im doing it the same way with my right". If you cant see the difference between those then youre probably a joy to work with.
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This is how I viewed that scenario until I saw this post...

sb247 said:
If an attending is letting you do a procedure on their patient and they tell you to do it differently.....it’s not on you to “reason” with them. You do what you are told or tap out with an apology and admit you physically cannot perform the instructions
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This sounds like the more professional way to handle it.
 
mehc012 said:
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...but confusing sentence structure and overly ambitious vocabulary padding aside, this thread is already enough of a clusterfrak without turning it into a debate about how hard it is to be a guy now that people sometimes listen when people speak out about sexual harassment. So please, keep that to the incel threads elsewhere.
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Some guy expresses something different that some people don't like = incel. Wow. What a logic.
 
Prince090 said:
Some guy expresses something different that some people don't like = incel. Wow. What a logic.
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Fenderbaum said:
I stopped engaging in informal conversation, wearing clothing that was expressive, making eye contact with the opposite sex, or generally have an opinion on any topic.
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I mean, whatever label you wanna give it, this is just sad. His lack of social skills isn't everyone else's fault.
 
WingedOx said:
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Seriously though. Not reracking your weights is so rude. Or people who rack them in the wrong spot, leading to everyone else to follow suit and an entire rack of disorganized weights as the end result. It drives me crazy. I wish planet fitness had professionalism citations haha
 
Newyawk said:
Disobedience would be "no i think it should be done this way, Dr. X, not that way". What he said was "my left hand hurts but im doing it the same way with my right". If you cant see the difference between those then youre probably a joy to work with.
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Except it probably isn't the same way or it wouldn't have been noticed and corrected. So it comes across as the first way to the person directing things.
 
Newyawk said:
Disobedience would be "no i think it should be done this way, Dr. X, not that way". What he said was "my left hand hurts but im doing it the same way with my right". If you cant see the difference between those then youre probably a joy to work with.
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The point is that the attending has to look at he big picture; a med student doesn’t. And a med student, particularly a third year, doesn’t have enough knowledge or skills yet to say whether something is or isn’t relevant to saving a patient, particularly in rapidly changing situations. It is entirely possible that the OP’s hand position was putting the ET tube at an improper angle, thus compromising the patient’s airway, or maybe his hand was somehow blocking the team from properly finishing the procedure. Without more experience, the OP may not have realized. Of course, that’s all just pure speculation; OP may have been just fine continuing that hold; however, students don’t get to go against an attending’s direct orders unless they will literally harm or kill a patient by doing so. Perhaps the attending overreacted; we’ll likely never know, but the OP should have sucked it up, done it the way the attending asked, and if he had an issue with it, he should have politely asked about the attending’s reasoning behind the request after they finished.
 
DrMcCoyDO said:
The point is that the attending has to look at he big picture; a med student doesn’t. And a med student, particularly a third year, doesn’t have enough knowledge or skills yet to say whether something is or isn’t relevant to saving a patient, particularly in rapidly changing situations. It is entirely possible that the OP’s hand position was putting the ET tube at an improper angle, thus compromising the patient’s airway, or maybe his hand was somehow blocking the team from properly finishing the procedure. Without more experience, the OP may not have realized. Of course, that’s all just pure speculation; OP may have been just fine continuing that hold; however, students don’t get to go against an attending’s direct orders unless they will literally harm or kill a patient by doing so. Perhaps the attending overreacted; we’ll likely never know, but the OP should have sucked it up, done it the way the attending asked, and if he had an issue with it, he should have politely asked about the attending’s reasoning behind the request after they finished.
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Also, the attending is responsible for ensuring that the procedure is happening safely/appropriately. So it's not only important that the procedure be done correctly, but also that the attending can tell that the procedure is done correctly. It's like how some surgeons require you to tie two handed knots or to tie your knots a certain way when they're still unsure of your abilities. It's not that another way won't work; there are multiple variations of the knot-tying hand positions. It's that they also have to be able to evaluate whether or not you did it right, as you did it...and that may mean that they need you to do it in the way that is familiar to them so that they will recognize if you mess it up, or be able to correct you as early as possible, preferably before something actually goes wrong or has to be re-done.

Once you've gotten to the stage where your ability to tie a knot that stays down or perform a procedure knowing the main risks and how to recognize them yourself isn't in question, then it's more reasonable for someone to see an odd method and go "huh, I do it this way, that's a neat difference" because presumably the person who taught you originally watched you do it that way until they were sure you were doing it right, so it doesn't need to be monitored as closely anymore and that familiarity is unnecessary. OP's technique may have worked, but if doing it that way prevented the attending from assessing and guiding them properly, even if it was simply because that's not the way that that attending is used to seeing...then it's inappropriate to do the procedure that way.
 
mehc012 said:
Also, the attending is responsible for ensuring that the procedure is happening safely/appropriately. So it's not only important that the procedure be done correctly, but also that the attending can tell that the procedure is done correctly. It's like how some surgeons require you to tie two handed knots or to tie your knots a certain way when they're still unsure of your abilities. It's not that another way won't work; there are multiple variations of the knot-tying hand positions. It's that they also have to be able to evaluate whether or not you did it right, as you did it...and that may mean that they need you to do it in the way that is familiar to them so that they will recognize if you mess it up, or be able to correct you as early as possible, preferably before something actually goes wrong or has to be re-done.

Once you've gotten to the stage where your ability to tie a knot that stays down or perform a procedure knowing the main risks and how to recognize them yourself isn't in question, then it's more reasonable for someone to see an odd method and go "huh, I do it this way, that's a neat difference" because presumably the person who taught you originally watched you do it that way until they were sure you were doing it right, so it doesn't need to be monitored as closely anymore and that familiarity is unnecessary. OP's technique may have worked, but if doing it that way prevented the attending from assessing and guiding them properly, even if it was simply because that's not the way that that attending is used to seeing...then it's inappropriate to do the procedure that way.
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Also a great point.
 
atomi said:
Really doesn't sound much different than the military in regards to how they control your time/schedule and mandate professional behavior down to dress and mannerisms. Clearly not for you as the military is not for everyone -- why did you choose such a strict school?
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Not sure what service you were in, but I've never felt like my behavior was under that much scrutiny in the military.
 
WingedOx said:
I can occasionally cross the line and be a jerk on this forum, but this is the first time I've ever mocked someone preemptively. I'm kind of impressed, actually.
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Here we have a personal assault in midst of someone advancing the mantle of totalitarian perspectives of "professionalism"

By a guy whose social and political views are best described as "national socialists against Nazism"

And the guy is a psychiatrist who apparently is totally unaware of the concept of personal boundaries.

How's that for congruence?
 
Wow, don't you just get the impression that Fenderbaum actually thinks that they are making good points and out-debating people? Like, I legitimately think that he has zero concept of how childish and incoherent he actually comes across as. There's not even anything to engage. Time to block, since it seems like they're going to insist on derailing this thread even though it was clearly already destined to be a trainwreck one way or another.
 
mehc012 said:
Wow, don't you just get the impression that Fenderbaum actually thinks that they are making good points and out-debating people? Like, I legitimately think that he has zero concept of how childish and incoherent he actually comes across as. There's not even anything to engage. Time to block, since it seems like they're going to insist on derailing this thread even though it was clearly already destined to be a trainwreck one way or another.
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Typical left-authoritarian perspective. Hear something you don't like? Its stupid a priori, and must be illegal/hate speech/derailing.
 
Fenderbaum said:
Here we have a personal assault in midst of someone advancing the mantle of totalitarian perspectives of "professionalism"

By a guy whose social and political views are best described as "national socialists against Nazism"

And the guy is a psychiatrist who apparently is totally unaware of the concept of personal boundaries.

How's that for congruence?
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Personal assault?

Nazi?

We are definitely getting trolled at this point.
 
OP, schedule a meeting with an administrator, preferably multiple administrators. At the meeting, sob like you've never sobbed before. Beg for mercy. Plead for forgiveness. Tell them you desperately want to become better. And while you're doing all of this, keep in mind that these people view you as a rapist and a deviant. At this point, they'd like nothing more than to see you fail and suffer. You have to prove to them that you have big, juicy butt-kissing lips and that you're an extreme masochist.

And even if you do the above, your goose is probably still cooked.

If you have good reason to believe that the false sexual harassment accusations affected administrators' behavior toward you, consider getting a lawyer and filing a Title IX lawsuit against your institution. (This would be after they kick you out, of course.)
 
Osminog said:
OP, schedule a meeting with an administrator, preferably multiple administrators. At the meeting, sob like you've never sobbed before. Beg for mercy. Plead for forgiveness. Tell them you desperately want to become better. And while you're doing all of this, keep in mind that these people view you as a rapist and a deviant. At this point, they'd like nothing more than to see you fail and suffer. You have to prove to them that you have big, juicy butt-kissing lips and that you're an extreme masochist.

And even if you do the above, your goose is probably still cooked.

If you have good reason to believe that the false sexual harassment accusations affected administrators' behavior toward you, consider getting a lawyer and filing a Title IX lawsuit against your institution. (This would be after they kick you out, of course.)
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Just a friendly neighborhood reminder that 'unproven' ≠ 'false'. And that 'sexual harassment' ≠ 'rape'. And that just because an incident brought you onto the admins' radar, doesn't mean that you aren't responsible for the fact that they did not like what they saw when they took a closer look.

If it were nothing but the sexual harassment case, OP would've been sent home during the proceedings for that incident. It appears to be more that OP has demonstrated a pattern of behavior that the school does not like.

I don't disagree with your assessment of how OP ought to handle the current situation (beg and plead and promise to improve), but it'd probably help them more if they actually reflected on what it is that seems to be pissing everyone off about them in multiple situations, rather than if they double down on their notion that this is all just a witch hunt because people are too #triggered about sexual harassment these days.
 
Osminog said:
OP, schedule a meeting with an administrator, preferably multiple administrators. At the meeting, sob like you've never sobbed before. Beg for mercy. Plead for forgiveness. Tell them you desperately want to become better. And while you're doing all of this, keep in mind that these people view you as a rapist and a deviant. At this point, they'd like nothing more than to see you fail and suffer. You have to prove to them that you have big, juicy butt-kissing lips and that you're an extreme masochist.

And even if you do the above, your goose is probably still cooked.

If you have good reason to believe that the false sexual harassment accusations affected administrators' behavior toward you, consider getting a lawyer and filing a Title IX lawsuit against your institution. (This would be after they kick you out, of course.)
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This is extremely bad advice because the school is clearly developing a paper trail that they can use to justify a dismissal.
 
All in all, this thread shows us a glimpse inside the mindset of people who run hospitals and medical health facilities and the ways they proceed against people they don't like.
 
Prince090 said:
All in all, this thread shows us a glimpse inside the mindset of people who run hospitals and medical health facilities and the ways they proceed against people they don't like people who don't know how to act.
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FTFY
 
Prince090 said:
Like what ?
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Like saying that Title IX policies, as they are actually applied at universities, directly infringe on the civil liberties of male students and subject them to biased investigations without any due process. Or bringing up the infamous "mattress girl" situation that took place at Columbia, which involved systematic, school-sponsored harassment of an innocent male student over rape accusations that were later determined to be completely false. Or bringing up any of the numerous cases in which this system has been abused by female students seeking revenge or coping with regret or chasing after victim points.

Those are examples of "incel sentiments," and anyone who's found to express them should be chastised and ostracized.
 
Goro said:
This is extremely bad advice because the school is clearly developing a paper trail that they can use to justify a dismissal.
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How would begging and groveling in person contribute to the paper trail?
 
Osminog said:
How would begging and groveling in person contribute to the paper trail?
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If you have good reason to believe that the false sexual harassment accusations affected administrators' behavior toward you, consider getting a lawyer and filing a Title IX lawsuit against your institution.

That's the bad advice.

Begging, crying and groveling? Good advice.
 
Goro said:
If you have good reason to believe that the false sexual harassment accusations affected administrators' behavior toward you, consider getting a lawyer and filing a Title IX lawsuit against your institution.

That's the bad advice.

Begging, crying and groveling? Good advice.
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Well... failed expelled med student/resident lawsuit deposition document threads are some of the most entertaining on SDN. Gotta get Lee that click money.
 
Goro said:
If you have good reason to believe that the false sexual harassment accusations affected administrators' behavior toward you, consider getting a lawyer and filing a Title IX lawsuit against your institution.

That's the bad advice.

Begging, crying and groveling? Good advice.
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The next sentence of my post reads, "(This would be after they kick you out, of course.)" He obviously shouldn't lawyer up while he's still enrolled in the program.
 
Osminog said:
Like saying that Title IX policies, as they are actually applied at universities, directly infringe on the civil liberties of male students and subject them to biased investigations without any due process. Or bringing up the infamous "mattress girl" situation that took place at Columbia, which involved systematic, school-sponsored harassment of an innocent male student over rape accusations that were later determined to be completely false. Or bringing up any of the numerous cases in which this system has been abused by female students seeking revenge or coping with regret or chasing after victim points.

Those are examples of "incel sentiments," and anyone who's found to express them should be chastised and ostracized.
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Just to keep things in perspective. OP was not found guilty of sexual harassment.
And all of the examples prove nothing that the person has incel mentality or not. I really don't know how guys can extrapolate few sentences to incel mentality.
 
Prince090 said:
Just to keep things in perspective. OP was not found guilty of sexual harassment.
And all of the examples prove nothing that the person has incel mentality or not. I really don't know how guys can extrapolate few sentences to incel mentality.
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Jesus, that's really what we're going to focus on here? Whether or not I applied exactly the correct internet subgroup label in the throwaway comment I made to the dude whose 1 contribution to the thread, which was decidedly NOT about sexual harassment until he popped up, was some overblown attempt at satire implying that the entire issue could be boiled down to how women are coddled and treated as special and any man who so much as looks crossways at the wrong woman is persecuted?

Frankly, idgaf whether I used exactly the right label for his attitudes; my point stands, what he's talking about was irrelevant to the thread as a whole and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.

Just to keep things in perspective, here is a summary of the thread so far:

OP: "I'm being railroaded!"
Many people "Sounds like you have a consistent attitude problem, caught the admins' eye, and they didn't like what they saw when they started paying attention"
Page or so discussing the nuances of this, and the exceptions.
Random dude: "Let's make this ONLY about sexual harassment...which is clearly overblown because everyone listens to women and poor men can't even look around anymore"
Me: "Please don't derail this into an argument about sexual harassment and men's rights [uses relevant internet reference for emphasis]
Thread now: OMG this is all persecution because sexual harassment is used to harm men and it's not fair! And we're not being fair to this other dude either just because he dares to point it out!

🙄
 
mehc012 said:
Jesus, that's really what we're going to focus on here? Whether or not I applied exactly the correct internet subgroup label in the throwaway comment I made to the dude whose 1 contribution to the thread, which was decidedly NOT about sexual harassment until he popped up, was some overblown attempt at satire implying that the entire issue could be boiled down to how women are coddled and treated as special and any man who so much as looks crossways at the wrong woman is persecuted?

Frankly, idgaf whether I used exactly the right label for his attitudes; my point stands, what he's talking about was irrelevant to the thread as a whole and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.

Just to keep things in perspective, here is a summary of the thread so far:

OP: "I'm being railroaded!"
Many people "Sounds like you have a consistent attitude problem, caught the admins' eye, and they didn't like what they saw when they started paying attention"
Page or so discussing the nuances of this, and the exceptions.
Random dude: "Let's make this ONLY about sexual harassment...which is clearly overblown because everyone listens to women and poor men can't even look around anymore"
Me: "Please don't derail this into an argument about sexual harassment and men's rights [uses relevant internet reference for emphasis]
Thread now: OMG this is all persecution because sexual harassment is used to harm men and it's not fair! And we're not being fair to this other dude either just because he dares to point it out!

🙄
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I don't disagree with you at all, but you're surprised a medical student focused on pointless minutiae? Isn't that what we train y'all to do?
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I don't disagree with you at all, but you're surprised a medical student focused on pointless minutiae? Isn't that what we train y'all to do?
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No, that's what law school is for. 😉
From what I've seen so far in med school, it's the students who can't yank their heads out of the minutiae long enough to recognize the bigger picture who struggle.
 
mehc012 said:
No, that's what law school is for. 😉
From what I've seen so far in med school, it's the students who can't yank their heads out of the minutiae long enough to recognize the bigger picture who struggle.
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Ha.

I dated a law student in med school. What they focus on is actually less minutiae type stuff and more cocaine type stuff.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Ha.

I dated a law student in med school. What they focus on is actually less minutiae type stuff and more cocaine type stuff.
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I've found it's easiest to have my roommates date the law students. Less distraction, but I do get the free advice and my pick of the leftover beer from their events (without being expected to attend).
 
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Prince090 said:
Just to keep things in perspective. OP was not found guilty of sexual harassment.
And all of the examples prove nothing that the person has incel mentality or not. I really don't know how guys can extrapolate few sentences to incel mentality.
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Is "Well actually, I'm a totally *different* type of red piller" really the way you want to go with this?
 
WingedOx said:
Is "Well actually, I'm a totally *different* type of red piller" really the way you want to go with this?
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One just can't question the narrative without getting labels. This is really getting ridiculous now.
 
Prince090 said:
One just can't question the narrative without getting labels. This is really getting ridiculous now.
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giphy.gif


In other news, this thread is getting refreshingly empty, what with all the people volunteering themselves for 'Ignore' button applications.
 
mehc012 said:
I don't disagree with you, but it is kind of funny that this is coming from someone whose avatar is GWB eating a kitten...
🤣:eyebrow::laugh::laugh:
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The funny thing is I picked this avatar for my Skype username before I knew what anything political was (age-wise) and I've just kept it since. But even as a Republican (pre-Trump) I appreciate the little things that made GWB an absolute peach. :joyful::joyful:
 
VincentAdultman said:
Oh hi I’m just here to laugh at the MGTOW/MRA/incels.
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You don't have to be any of these things to realize how corrupt the typical title ix investigation is, and adjust all dating behavior miles and miles away from people who attend your school. Presuming you have the capability to attract the opposite sex away from campus.

The funny thing is I picked this avatar for my Skype username before I knew what anything political was (age-wise) and I've just kept it since. But even as a Republican (pre-Trump) I appreciate the little things that made GWB an absolute peach.
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You don't have to be political to be against GWB, just against stupid people in positions of power.
 
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Fenderbaum said:
You don't have to be any of these things to realize how corrupt the typical title ix investigation is, and adjust all dating behavior miles and miles away from people who attend your school.
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...if your dating behavior includes harassment and rape. The vast majority of men have no issue with title IX so maybe instead of the system it just may be you
 
Chibucks15 said:
...if your dating behavior includes harassment and rape. The vast majority of men have no issue with title IX so maybe instead of the system it just may be you
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But there have been a number of well publicized false accusations, title ix is dangerous in that it does not operate with the same rights for the accused as criminal investigation
 
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