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??? CCOM didn't just add 100 new students, 14 years after being founded. Apples? Oranges.
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Pros and Cons of your DO School
Started by Ilikescience
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??? CCOM didn't just add 100 new students, 14 years after being founded. Apples? Oranges.
That was AZCOM, CCOM went from ~175 to 200 for the class entering this fall.
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Yeah, see you are missing the point. The point is that they made damn sure we all had excellent rotation sites. You would think they would have worked that out BEFORE they made the class sizes so large.
Good call, I just glanced at it. AZ doesn't have the resources to support that increase along with the state MD school adding 40 seats and ATSU-Mesa with their students.
You aren't even in medical school yet nor are you matriculating at an Osteopathic school...nor do your reasoning skills reflect the intelligence of person who would have any prospect of attending medical school. Stick to using SDN as learning tool and you might make a good podiatrist one day...if you're lucky. your current trajectory is bleak indeed.
awarding DO Down the academy award for best actor in a heroic whistle blower thread is schema you're trying to shove down everyone else's throats. what's your motivation?
As for Handydandy 39J I stick by my challenge. If what you say is true you should easily squash me. but I'm game..
group_theory
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Please return to the original topic of this thread and NOT a personal side conversation or pissing match
So why wouldn't you make that bet based on the COMLEX? You do go to a DO school..
Well because he doesn't go to DO school and I'm going to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE to keep my options open for residencies.
he's gonna get a 280, for sure.
If you don't go to a DO program, it does make me ask.. Why are you posting in a pro and con of your DO school? Just here to stir something up?
no no handy you already got a 300 and authored the lovable children's book "see spot run." I was out of line making that challenge, because really who can top that?
Really the guy who goes to a "first tier MD school" but posts in the thread "pros/cons of your DO school" who could ever hope to top a person with that kind of omniscience?
Let's return to the point of the thread before a mod shows up. Remember: Ad hominem is not an effective argumentative technique.
I am honored that you have my quote in your signature BTW...I hope you took it to heart.
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I think you miss the irony.
no I think it's lost on you.
You put down RVU, but what about the school you're attending?
It's private, tied with the Uni. of Utah in research rankings, and not even the top ranked school in Florida?
You think because you got a seat at the table you know what cards you are going to be dealt? I really wish I could be a fly on the wall to see how you handle the 1st couple weeks of med school...
And just as with handy you are posting in a thread "Pros & Cons of YOUR DO school" when you're not in DO school, you don't plan on attending a DO school, & you aren't even an MS-1 yet?
That's like getting hit over the head repeatedly with an irony tack hammer.
When?
Wow. You had to be salivating, waiting for my response to reply that quickly.
I love how you ignore the meat of the previous post. it's...ironic.
yes yes of course your blind assumption of DO down's truthiness wasn't an implicit admission of your disdain for RVU...what was I thinking? Ever heard of a Rorschach Ink Blot Test?
or is it in your nature to accept things posted on the internet as truth sight unseen?
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Please take the time to review SDN's Terms of Service (TOS)
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Posts in violation of TOS have been and will be acted upon accordingly.
Please stay on topic. There is no need to "have the last word".
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Please stay on topic. There is no need to "have the last word".
For those you that mentioned that you pick a schools quality based upon rotation matching. It totally makes sense. But, what is the best way to seek out these findings? I have gained some insight from this thread, but I am not sure where to go from here from more info on that.
Btw, for those that posted long reviews. Thank you! That will definitely be a golden tool for me in admissions this year.
Btw, for those that posted long reviews. Thank you! That will definitely be a golden tool for me in admissions this year.
Rotations and matching are two separate events.
Rotations are what you do in a hospital during years 3 & 4. Things to look for: Does the school have long, healthy relationships with local hospitals? Are you expected to arrange your own rotations? Will you be expected to move to another city and/or state for years 3 & 4? Will you be expected to move during those years as well, as rotation sites change? Do you have to come back to the school for exams, if so? Are you given lots of time 4th year to do elective (audition) rotations outside the school's system? Is there a long, remote rotation during 4th year that could conflict with residency interviews? Is the 4th year content relevant to your interests, or is there an emphasis on a theme that's not your cup of tea? Are the odds low that you'll be in a large, tertiary care hospital where you'll see TONS of varied pathology? Are you given support during 3rd & 4th year for board study? Generally, you want to know if a school has a history of trouble, or requirements that will get in the way of your goals.
The Match is how 4th year students and residencies are put together. Late in 3rd year and early in 4th year, you're expected to figure out what you want to do, and in many cases, do audition rotations with residency programs that interest you. You then interview with different residencies, maybe November through January. Then you rank programs, and the programs rank you, and a computer does the math. And your future, to which you're contractually obligated, lands in your hands in an envelope at a big ceremony. Match lists are easy to find on SDN. What to look for: if you're interested in school X, does school X match ANYBODY into the specialties you think you might pursue? Was this last year an anomaly in those specialties? Are grads of school X matching into residencies in parts of the country where you want to work? Are school X grads getting into competitive ACGME (allo) residencies, generally, and do you care about that? You can't make assumptions about what's going to happen to YOU based on a match list, but if for example you want to do surgery and the school matches very few surgical specialties, that's good information.
(Note that there's a large rathole you can go down, which is the question of whether you "should" do an "MD" (ACGME) or "DO" (AOA) residency. This question has no universally applicable answer, and the school you choose has much less to do with the answer than your performance there. Whatever you dream of doing now, your performance during the first couple years of med school will determine whether you can realistically pursue that dream. It's perfectly appropriate to postpone choosing between ACGME vs. AOA, in my view, until 3rd year.)
Best of luck to you.
Picking a school based on your estimation of their match list is extremely stupid.
1. As a pre-med, you know almost nothing about any residency program. You're looking for big names, but you probably don't know what to look for beyond that. For example, which emergency medicine program would you say is better? Johns Hopkins or Denver Health?
2. The sample sizes are too small. If a school is putting a ton of people into competitive programs every year, then yeah, they're probably doing something right. But just because a school is putting a bunch of people into IM and FM every year doesn't necessarily mean they're doing anything wrong. You don't know what the applicants applied to, or what their ultimate goals are. What about sub-specialties? Lots of primary care programs allow for further training later, which will not appear on the match list.
3. Internships/transitionals. Do you really know what this means? So where are these guys headed after their PGY-1 year? Maybe derm. Maybe ophtho. Maybe rads. Maybe PM&R. Maybe nowhere. You don't know.
Match lists are fun and interesting, but not all that valuable as a tool for decision-making.
1. As a pre-med, you know almost nothing about any residency program. You're looking for big names, but you probably don't know what to look for beyond that. For example, which emergency medicine program would you say is better? Johns Hopkins or Denver Health?
2. The sample sizes are too small. If a school is putting a ton of people into competitive programs every year, then yeah, they're probably doing something right. But just because a school is putting a bunch of people into IM and FM every year doesn't necessarily mean they're doing anything wrong. You don't know what the applicants applied to, or what their ultimate goals are. What about sub-specialties? Lots of primary care programs allow for further training later, which will not appear on the match list.
3. Internships/transitionals. Do you really know what this means? So where are these guys headed after their PGY-1 year? Maybe derm. Maybe ophtho. Maybe rads. Maybe PM&R. Maybe nowhere. You don't know.
Match lists are fun and interesting, but not all that valuable as a tool for decision-making.
That sounds like a total pain, not to mention expensive. Is this something that commonly happens during 3rd and 4th year at most schools? The constant moving about on your last 2 years sounds quite unappealing to me, are there schools out there that have good rotation sites close enough to the school so that you don't have to move? I don't know if I'm worrying about this unnecessarily, is this just something most med students adjust to?
You can find answers by reading this thread from the beginning. Also by looking at the "hospital affiliations" or "clinical years" pages on the websites for the schools you're interested in.
For comparison, the University of Washington (an MD school, in case that's not obvious) serves 27% of the US land mass (WA, WY, AK, MT, ID) and shops out 1st, 3rd and 4th years to remote sites for any student they can talk into it. The benefit of this during 1st year is having a cadaver and a professor almost all to yourself. The benefit of it during 3rd and 4th years is having a hospital, if not an entire county, almost all to yourself. By staying in Seattle, alternatively, students get to "live" in the penitentiary/rabbit warren that is the medical center, and compete like crazed weasels to get to do anything at the various massive conglomerate hospitals. Anecdotally, board scores are actually higher for the remote students...
As you'll find by reading this thread (in its entirety, just do it), proactive students at non-hospital-owning DO schools do just fine, never have to move away, by paying attention and maybe running for student government in order to get a good spot in the "lottery" or whatever system decides who goes where. You need to do your research to avoid a school with a reputation for making its students figure everything out for themselves.
Best of luck to you.
Huh? Since when have we valued rankings here? The students at every med school in Florida are all pretty even in performance. I know people that turned down acceptances at UF to attend Miami, FSU and USF. I know people that turned down USF to attend FSU. I know people that turned down FSU to go to Miami.
Who cares about research rankings? Most students will barely see any of that anyway.
Ugh don't goad him on, he has already muddled this thread enough as is.
I can't express in words just how much of a "total pain" the moving around during 3rd and 4th year is. Worse, you're moving around to go to clinical rotations where the education quality is often (50% of the time) completely substandard, or worse, non-existent. The school knows about this, but, sadly, they look the other way since they simply can't find enough rotations for their students. The competition for rotations spots is getting intense. For example, Touro just lost their main hospital affiliation in the Bay Area (St. Luke's) when another med school became affiliated with the hospital.
Of course, this is only my experience at my school (Touro-CA). I certainy hope the experience of people at other school's is different. In talking to people at other schools, many of the older, more established DO schools seem to have their act together (North Texas, PCOM, UMDNJ, several others, etc.). I think if you do your homework and ask the tough questions as you look at schools, you could avoid some of the hassles commonly experienced at a school like Touro-CA.
When I applied to Touro, I didn't know what questions to ask. I didn't realize the importance of investigating exactly where the third and forth year students were rotating. In general, if you can't speak to a 3rd and 4th year when you visit the school, I would consider this to be a red flag, that would raise my concerns.
Don't be too impressed with the shiny anatomy labs they show you on the
tour. Reliable clinical rotations at teaching hospitals with residency programs, clustered in one geographic region are far more important.
bth
Yeah, this is what my concern was after reading through all of these posts. It seems a lot of students are describing situations like the one you described above. It sounds like students have to take a lot of initiative on their own to find good rotation sites, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but it also sounds like certain schools arn't very helpful in aiding students through this process. Hopefully, based on my acceptances
, I'll have the chance to pick a school that is a bit more helpful with arranging quality rotations...Here is one more CON for UNECOM. JUST REALLY BAD LEADERSHIP.
http://sites.google.com/site/unecomconcern/news-aricles
http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=280875&ac=PHnws&pg=1
http://www.wmtw.com/money/20675028/detail.html?taf=port
http://sites.google.com/site/unecomconcern/news-aricles
http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=280875&ac=PHnws&pg=1
http://www.wmtw.com/money/20675028/detail.html?taf=port
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K
KCUMBStudent
Anyone care to comment about KCUMB? Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who thinks the new head of curriculum is a bit out of control.
But, who knows. I'm probably just skitzo, I mean she has me paranoid enough to make a new SDN login to even just post this.
But, who knows. I'm probably just skitzo, I mean she has me paranoid enough to make a new SDN login to even just post this.
Well, that's just it, very few students are going to take the risk, or the time, to speak out on a public forum about anything remotely negative about the school. It's just not worth it, because mostly, it falls on deaf ears, or can get folks into trouble. I will say this, though, experience and observation tells me that you are probably not the only student who thinks the administration may be a tad heavy-handed. It's just that nobody will admit it, unless you talk to them in person and they trust you enough to reveal what they really think. However, if this is the case (I'm not saying it is), there are a lot of schools that share this problem. You have to work with it, regardless, so it really doesn't matter anyway.
Want some free advice from someone that is probably (don't know what level you are) a bit ahead of you? Whatever the deal is with the school, focus on your studies and do what you have to do to learn as much as you can, given what you have available to you. Forget about the nonsense that is going on around you, if you can. It's not worth spending time over. Instead, spend your time learning as much as you can from classes, but also take learning into your own hands, because it's your responsibility to do what is necessary to prepare for boards and for your clinical rotations. The school can help or hinder, but at the end, it's still up to you, so who cares what's going on in the administration, or what not? It's always been about doing what you can to help your own learning process. Trust me, the first two years go by fast and when it's over it'll seem as if a hurricane came through your life in a dream you had one night (of course, it seems like a million years when you are in the thick of it). Make the most of it, while you can. And then when you hit rotations, you'll forget all that stuff on campus (for better or worse). Make it through and it'll be all right. 🙂
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She was in charge of things last year too, as far as I remember. She's trying to bring our curriculum a little more in line with the MD schools. Some of it sucks, of course, but what can you do? I don't like the fact they pulled this mess after we were already a year into the game, but you do what you need to get your degree. Make your suggestions to CQI and make sure your classmates do the same. Don't rely on the school to do much for you or keep you informed. They are pretty bad at communication. Just make sure you take care of yourself. Be pro-active in your education and you'll make it through all this. There are some positive aspects of the school. It's just that all this seemingly uncoordinated change is masking those positive things...
I understand what your saying with all the changes. Heres how I look at it ;
I dont like it, but like LSUalex said ..... what can ya do
most human beings do not like change..... whatever it may be
medical school is stressful, so since your 'on edge' things easily set you off
Just learn what you can for long term understanding and 'play their game' when you must and youll get through it.
KCUMB has some great things to offer: yet its not perfect by any means. no school is.
Disclaimer: this will probably sound like greek unless you have personal experience with the school or medical school in general
I dont like it, but like LSUalex said ..... what can ya do
most human beings do not like change..... whatever it may be
medical school is stressful, so since your 'on edge' things easily set you off
Just learn what you can for long term understanding and 'play their game' when you must and youll get through it.
KCUMB has some great things to offer: yet its not perfect by any means. no school is.
Disclaimer: this will probably sound like greek unless you have personal experience with the school or medical school in general
Very true. People are very reluctant to tell the truth about their school.
The DO world likes its students to be seen and not heard. And they have various methods for keeping a lid on it.
bth
Thanks for posting this.
Now, the bigger story is why this is happening at MANY of our colleges of osteopathic medicine. Faculty are being fired. Clinical sites closed. Heavy handed administrators refuse to talk. Osteopathic tuitions are the HIGHEST of any med schools in the country and continue to climb.
What's going on?
bth
I know you like to be dramatic about things but please try to get the facts straight. The tution is no higher at osteopathic schools than at other private medical schools in the US. That's a fact. Medical school tution is a nightmare, but it's a nightmare shared by every student.
This isn't the time for ranting and raving about how horrible the state of osteopathic medicine is. Let's focus on the immediate issue, what's directly happening at UNECOM, and come up with some constructive ideas.
Wrong again. Osteopathic student receive less financial aid, and graduate with more debt.
And allopathic schools have gotten serious about financial aid to med students, especially those interested in primary care.
From US News and World report:
The Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine is waiving tuition for all future students who practice medicine and conduct research in primary care or any specialty. The University of Central Florida, which paid all tuition and living expenses for the incoming class at its new med school, is raising money for 120 more full scholarships. The Mayo Clinic is waiving 50 percent of tuition to all who are admitted (some can get more). Harvard, Yale, and Stanford also offer big tuition breaks for students from middle-income families.
bth
Osteopathic students, in general, aren't attached to large state schools or schools with massive endowments. That's why we get significantly less money, wouldn't you think? You can't compare PCOM to Harvard, which you're essentially doing. Harvard's endowment is in the billions of dollars where as PCOM's is probably the low-triple digits of millions.
Oh- and UNE med students have the highest debt load of any medical school in the US. HIGHEST - including allopathic and osteopathic.
BTW: the president of UNE has refused to speak or give comment. There are "talks" with the local hospital and the physicians, but as of 11/2 the physicians are fired from UNE. UNE is hoping the hospital picks the docs up and that they allow UNE to contract for clinical time, but if that doesn't work there is no plan B. The closing of University Health was done without any plans for patients, physicians, or teaching of students. The only OMM faculty staying on not fired as of 11/2 is the department head. The residents are also up in the air as to how to finish their OMM residencies - without faculty to precept they can't finish residency. Patients found out about the closing in the paper.
It's turning out to be a terrible mess with no word at all from administration other than a reiteration of what we've seen and read in the papers and the Provost telling us "you should go back to studying and not even think about this."
Oh, and did I mention UNE is due for re-accreditation as of September 2010?
BTW: the president of UNE has refused to speak or give comment. There are "talks" with the local hospital and the physicians, but as of 11/2 the physicians are fired from UNE. UNE is hoping the hospital picks the docs up and that they allow UNE to contract for clinical time, but if that doesn't work there is no plan B. The closing of University Health was done without any plans for patients, physicians, or teaching of students. The only OMM faculty staying on not fired as of 11/2 is the department head. The residents are also up in the air as to how to finish their OMM residencies - without faculty to precept they can't finish residency. Patients found out about the closing in the paper.
It's turning out to be a terrible mess with no word at all from administration other than a reiteration of what we've seen and read in the papers and the Provost telling us "you should go back to studying and not even think about this."
Oh, and did I mention UNE is due for re-accreditation as of September 2010?
Agreed, that the difference is organization produces the problem. But I disagree about comparisons.
It's important to understand that the real differences between osteopathic and allopathic schools. If for no other reason than to counteract the propaganda coming out of the AOA.
Osteopathic students graduate with more debt. And osteopathic schools actually charge more per student. Osteopathic schools receive less money to defray costs of education (like research grants, state scholarships) because the osteopathic way de-emphasizes the importance of these qualities in a med schools, and over-emphasize "the osteopathic philosophy."
What's happening at UNECOM is a sad reality of osteopathic schools. At an allopathic school, the school MUST have clear clinical sites staffed by physicians who are employed by the school. At osteopathic schools, they just drop them, saying they are "too expensive" and then ship the students off to clinical sites in parts unknown. The AOA doesn't require real clinical sites be owned or managed by the school. They aren't regulated by the school or the AOA. Therefore, the schools pick the cheapest version of clinical education., the free kind.
This erosion of clinical sites is happening at many osteopathic schools.
I'm sure some will think I'm just being critical of osteopathy. I'm not. I'm actually a big fan. But, we're being duped people. We're being fooled. These people (the AOA, the administration of DO schools) don't have the best interests of students and patients in mind.
The real heart-ache comes when you realize that NOTHING any student says will ever effect the re-accredidation of the school. The same silent, unresponsive dismissive attitude is EXACTLY what you'll get from the accredidation council.
The AOA will rubber stamp the accredidation of ANY school. Including the recent shenanigans going on here: http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/PDFs/RockyVistaUniversityHoldingCo.pdf
I know everyone thinks I'm a big drama queen, but seriously, students at DO schools have no voice. No input. No place. The osteopathic world is changing, for the worse, fast.
For profit schools. Schools with no clinical sites. Schools with higher tuitions and higher debts for graduates. Schools where all the faculty are hired on a temporary basis. And dismissed without explanation. No tenured faculty. No clinical departments. No 3rd and 4th year students who stay on the home campus. Clinical education that the "hope" they can get.
We raise concerns. And they are telling us to "go study."
bth
don't get me wrong here - UNE has some really great 3rd year core clinical sites. I did a LOT in my third year and had a great learning experience. Third year core rotations are placed in a core site so you don't have to move around for 3rd year.
University Health is where the campus faculty practices. In essence, UNE has dismissed all the 1st and 2nd year clinical teaching faculty other than the OMM department head and the PhDs that only teach and research. No one to teach OMM other than the department head. No table trainers for second years. No residents. This is the reality UNE is facing with the closing of University Health. Who knows what's going to happen with the OMM fellowship program.
UNE does pay for our rotation sites - but not much. Far less than Tufts or UVermont or Dartmouth pays.
University Health is where the campus faculty practices. In essence, UNE has dismissed all the 1st and 2nd year clinical teaching faculty other than the OMM department head and the PhDs that only teach and research. No one to teach OMM other than the department head. No table trainers for second years. No residents. This is the reality UNE is facing with the closing of University Health. Who knows what's going to happen with the OMM fellowship program.
UNE does pay for our rotation sites - but not much. Far less than Tufts or UVermont or Dartmouth pays.
I wonder if they're planning on switching their accreditation status. Why else would OMM faculty be fired so close to an AOA reaccreditation evaluation?
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Switching? To what?
There's no way any DO school would meet the accredidation standards for an MD school. MD schools require 10x the faculty. Plus you have to have a hospital.
Actually there are already a few (two that i know of) DO schools that have had LCME site visits. Im not sure but i think both of those schoos
"passed" whatever criteria the LCME was looking for. Also, i dont think you have to have an attached hospital to be LCME accredited. Im fairly certain that there are some MD schools without attached hospitals. Just because you had a bad experience with Touro doesnt mean all the other DO schools suck. I understand your reasons for constantly putting down Touro however, theres a few DO schools that are pretty stellar schools.
-Speaking of Touro, the new MD touro doesnt have a hospital. Several of the new schools dont have hospitals actually. They use the same system for rotations that some DO schools do.
Which schools were they? Was TCOM one of them?
TCOM, yes. That's a whole story. TCOM is obviously the exceptional DO school. They seriously have their act together, and they should receive much praise for it. Still even with their site visit, there's a very long road ahead.
The other school?
Touro's MD school is . . . dead in the water, at the moment.
Don't get me wrong. There are the exceptional DO schools out there. The older, established schools that receive state money. UMDNJ, TCOM, PCOM, etc. It's more that there's a great divide between these schools and RVUCOM, Touro, Western, AZCOM. And at this point, there's so many of the new schools with poor standards, it reflects badly on the profession as a whole.
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