PhD/PsyD PsyD Tuition: How much is too much?

[PsychedUp313]

Although I am waiting to hear back from University of Denver's PsyD program, I'm worried about the tuition. It's $62,000 a year. Is it even worth it? I was accepted to Florida Tech and their tuition is $29,000 a year. Can I justify DU's price??? Anyone attending a costly PsyD program, and if so, how are you dealing with a huge amount of debt?

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[CatsFan]

Is there any funding at either program? Scholarships for tuition or a stipend? I would look at the total cost after any guaranteed financial aid (grants, assistantships), including living expenses. Without financial aid, $62,000 per year plus living expenses would not be worth it IMO.

 

[bellezza1994]

Although I am waiting to hear back from University of Denver's PsyD program, I'm worried about the tuition. It's $62,000 a year. Is it even worth it? I was accepted to Florida Tech and their tuition is $29,000 a year. Can I justify DU's price??? Anyone attending a costly PsyD program, and if so, how are you dealing with a huge amount of debt?

I honestly do not feel like it is worth it unless you have a surefire way to pay off all that debt. Like a NHSC scholarship or joining the military as a military psychologist for a few years to pay off the debt (neither of which is guaranteed to happen). Or you just have a nice slush/trust fund set up to not dig yourself into a hole.

 

[SouthpawPsych]

I agree with Catsfan and would also take into consideration any debt you may have accrued throughout undergrad. I had a similar question for others when choosing my masters program. I really wanted to go to DU actually, but it would have been 54k a year. Instead, I was offered an assistantship that I kept for two years and came out of the program debt free. I am still very grateful for that opportunity and would still be paying that off even once I finish my PhD program.

Someone else on this forum will be more informed, but I’m not aware of any major differences between those two programs.

 

[SchoolPsycho]

You are right to be worried. Assuming you are done in 4 years and have no loans for living expenses (both poor assumptions), $62,000/year means starting life a quarter million dollars in debt. Psychologists, on average, simply do not make enough money to overcome that kind of a hole.

Just say no.

 

[WisNeuro]

A quarter of a million of dollars of med school debt is ok for a physician who will be making >200k a year, usually with large signing bonuses and such. It is nowhere near ok for a degree that confers median salaries in the high 70, low 80k range. IMO anything over 50 k TOTAL for a all of grad school is way too much. Run the numbers on what your payments will be, what your principal will balloon to if you defer while you are on internship/postdoc, etc.

 

[Justanothergrad]

A quarter of a million of dollars of med school debt is ok for a physician who will be making >200k a year, usually with large signing bonuses and such. It is nowhere near ok for a degree that confers median salaries in the high 70, low 80k range. IMO anything over 50 k TOTAL for a all of grad school is way too much. Run the numbers on what your payments will be, what your principal will balloon to if you defer while you are on internship/postdoc, etc.

Agreed.

I'm not even sure I'd agree to 50k for debt for education resulting in less than 100k median earnings. Especially given funded programs, I would probably cap at 25k.

 

[WisNeuro]

Agreed.
I'm not even sure I'd agree to 50k for debt for education resulting in less than 100k median earnings. Especially given funded programs, I would probably cap at 25k.

Oh yeah, my personal threshold is much lower. I probably wouldn't have gone over 20k myself if I had to take out loans for grad school.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

$50k or less could work, but the goal should be the least amount possible. $62k/yr is crazy. $30k/yr is already too much, assuming 4yr (best case scenario), that's $120k + tuition increases + fees + compound interest + living expenses.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Why isn't financial education a required undergraduate course again? I know its too late at that point for some folks given the UG debt, but man.... seems so useful.

 

[Sanman]

Yeah, I agree with t4C on the 50k number and always suggest people do their research. APA releases stats on average indebtedness of PhDs and PsyDs. I would shoot for being at the average amount for PhDs if possible. Less is always better and 62K/yr is absolutely insanity. Your starting salary may not even be that high.

 

[psych.meout]

Why isn't financial education a required undergraduate course again? I know its too late at that point for some folks given the UG debt, but man.... seems so useful.

Universities kind of have personal incentives against financial literacy, especially private schools. Otherwise they'd be teaching their students that it's not financially wise to continue going into so much debt when they could get an equivalent education at state schools.

It's like expecting a drug dealer to be educating their customers about the dangers of cocaine.

 

[Pragma]

How do they justify that ridiculous level of tuition?

 

[singasongofjoy]

Can I justify DU's price???

No.

 

[ClinicalABA]

You'll be 300k in debt by the time you are done. ****

Actually, at 6.8% over 20 years, total repayment is $454,340. That compound interest sneaks up you!

what would the monthly payment be on something like that 2-3k? Jesus, that is a fast way to making poverty.

For 20 years (241 payments), it's $1,893.08 per month!! You could also opt for the 10 year plan and monthly payments of only ~$2800! For entry level salary positions (let's say, for the sake of argument, 60K/year), on the 20 year play that would be equal to 2 weeks take home pay. I don't see how that's remotely realistic. Even with some graduated payment plan, that means you'll be paying more than that later to pay less earlier. Other loan forgiveness options (which are current targets for cuts, btw) tend to be associated with lower incomes.

 

[Parabolas]

I think everyone else has made it clear, but the more voices the better!

Unless your family is paying your tuition in full, you are independently wealthy by some other means, or your spouse makes so much money that you don't need to have a significant source of income, then this is a very bad idea. As others have said, paying that much money in tuition is fine if you're in medical school because you will be making a sufficiently high salary so as to be able to comfortably pay your loans back (but even then, it would take time). In our field, however, you should expect to be making about 1/3rd (or less) of what physicians make. Therefore, it makes no sense to accrue the same amount of loan debt that someone who is pursuing a career in medicine accrues.

If you're not financially savvy, then let me try to explain how difficult it would be for you to be in this amount of debt. First of all, you would be paying off those loans for decades. A very large chunk of your paycheck would be going directly to paying the loans and their associated interest, and it's safe to say that, given how large these loans would be, you would be devoting about half of your income to pay them back. If you're already making $60k-80k (as you should expect to, on average), then you'll be quite broke. Essentially, you would be living your life off of a salary that would be comparable to somebody working in retail. You'll be pinching pennies until your kids are in college, and likely later (if not forever).

So, the answer here is a clear "that's too much."

 

[psych.meout]

I honestly do not feel like it is worth it unless you have a surefire way to pay off all that debt. Like a NHSC scholarship or joining the military as a military psychologist for a few years to pay off the debt (neither of which is guaranteed to happen). Or you just have a nice slush/trust fund set up to not dig yourself into a hole.

I definitely agree that banking on being a military psychologist is a dangerous gamble. At the very least, if you have any disqualifying physical or mental health conditions you can pretty much write off getting a commission. Even if you are qualified, it's not exactly the most ideal lifestyle.

 

[deleted343839]

Although I am waiting to hear back from University of Denver's PsyD program, I'm worried about the tuition. It's $62,000 a year. Is it even worth it? I was accepted to Florida Tech and their tuition is $29,000 a year. Can I justify DU's price??? Anyone attending a costly PsyD program, and if so, how are you dealing with a huge amount of debt?

That's just for tuition?? No way! NO WAY.

 

[NotTheHoff]

That's just for tuition?? No way! NO WAY.

It looks like they are on a quarter system, but I believe they're calculating the tuition portion at 45K for Fall/Winter/Spring terms?

2016-17 Cost of Attendance | University of Denver

No matter how you slice it though, that's amazingly costly.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Universities kind of have personal incentives against financial literacy, especially private schools. Otherwise they'd be teaching their students that it's not financially wise to continue going into so much debt when they could get an equivalent education at state schools.

It's like expecting a drug dealer to be educating their customers about the dangers of cocaine.

Yeh, I agree with that in profit institutions (at least to a greater degree- I don't know how they work so I can't say for sure what that model looks like since I have zero experience there). However, I'm not sure that holds true to the same degree for other schools- such as state schools where a majority of education is provided in the US. Given that courses are submitted at a department level (i.e., professor designed/proposed), I'm skeptical of the 'school top down suppression' model. I'm doubtful there has been a huge crushing of these proposed courses from administration, but I could be wrong.

 

[singasongofjoy]

I think everyone else has made it clear, but the more voices the better!

Unless your family is paying your tuition in full, you are independently wealthy by some other means, or your spouse makes so much money that you don't need to have a significant source of income, then this is a very bad idea."

I think that EVEN IF your fam is paying / you are independently wealthy / etc. etc. it's STILL a TERRIBLE idea. Invest that money so you can retire one day or send your potential future kids to school without loans! Buy a house! Let your parents keep their money and retire early! Found a small nonprofit! Build one of those tree-condos like from whatever that HGTV show is and adopt 12 cats if that would personally contribute positively to your quality of life. No sense in just throwing money to the wind if you can do something else with it that would contribute positively to your QOL. Assuming the second option will give you an education of comparable quality, then.... if you really want to live in Denver or whatever, then go somewhere else cheaper for school, and use the money you saved to actually buy a house and live in Denver after graduation.

This is a stupid analogy if you did get accepted to Denver, and were faced with choosing one over the other, to me it would be like... let's say you're at the farmer's market and you want to buy a dozen apples. You have $43. Farmer A has a dozen tasty Gala apples for $6. Farmer B has a dozen tasty Fuji apples for $40. (Do you know apples? They're both equally tasty!) You end up buying a dozen apples for $40, because 1) you have $43 to spend so you totally have enough money and 2) the farmer happens to be wearing a green shirt that day and you're like "heeeey, green is my favorite color! Plus I see you have a dog, that's cool." So you walk out with a dozen Fuji apples and $3 to spare, which is enough to buy one of those tiny little mini sweet potato pies on the way out, which is great because you friggin love those.... but you COULD have had enough to purchase a full-sized pie to share with your family, plus a dozen apples and a pie for the next 3 weeks. Now excuse me, I'm going to go eat some of my delicious leftover pie, because I can, because I had enough money to buy the full-sized pie this weekend.

 

[Sendtrees]

It is too much. This program shouldn't exist. It exists to enrich the stakeholders, only. It will only draw people who make terrible decisions or people who are so wealthy they might as well. But I'm guessing more of the former.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Actually, at 6.8% over 20 years, total repayment is $454,340. That compound interest sneaks up you!



For 20 years (241 payments), it's $1,893.08 per month!! You could also opt for the 10 year plan and monthly payments of only ~$2800! For entry level salary positions (let's say, for the sake of argument, 60K/year), on the 20 year play that would be equal to 2 weeks take home pay. I don't see how that's remotely realistic. Even with some graduated payment plan, that means you'll be paying more than that later to pay less earlier. Other loan forgiveness options (which are current targets for cuts, btw) tend to be associated with lower incomes.

I highly appreciate your math for these threads.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

The general rule of thumb is don't have more debt than your first year salary, which includes ALL college tuition. For psychology that is a confusing rule b/c its difficult to say what is your first year salary, internship? postdoc? actual job? So the range is somewhere between 20K at internship and 75K at first job.

So, DU and FIT are both oppressively expensive and not worth the degree.

 

[Pragma]

general rule of thumb is don't have more debt than your first year salary, which includes ALL college tuition. For psychology that is a confusing rule b/c its difficult to say what is your first year salary, internship? postdoc? actual job? So the range is somewhere between 20K at internship and 75K at first job.

75k first job? Varies a bit by specialty and setting.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

75k first job? Varies a bit by specialty and setting.

My best guess at the average.

 

[Justanothergrad]

My best guess at the average.

CWS Data Tool: Salaries in Psychology

Probably about right, but also maybe a little high since the info here on ECPs has it an average within that range and ECP isn't just first year income.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

CWS Data Tool: Salaries in Psychology

Probably about right, but also maybe a little high since the info here on ECPs has it an average within that range and ECP isn't just first year income.

Great tool! You are right, I may be underestimating the median income of 1st year employment. Though, I wonder if the APA data is biased. There are a lot of people that are not part of APA and maybe they make more money? I think almost every psychologists I know is not an active APA member or has never been.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Great tool! You are right, I may be underestimating the median income of 1st year employment. Though, I wonder if the APA data is biased. There are a lot of people that are not part of APA and maybe they make more money? I think almost every psychologists I know is not an active APA member or has never been.

Oh I'm sure it's completely bias in terms of selection but it seems the best data we've got. I suppose one could triangulate it for neuropsychologists given TCN reports that data to determine any potential bias... but I'm pretty sure I'm not that bored... yet.

 

[psych.meout]

Oh I'm sure it's completely bias in terms of selection but it seems the best data we've got. I suppose one could triangulate it for neuropsychologists given TCN reports that data to determine any potential bias... but I'm pretty sure I'm not that bored... yet.

Doesn't Jerry Sweet's salary survey do a good job of breaking this data down for neuropsychologists?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Oh I'm sure it's completely bias in terms of selection but it seems the best data we've got. I suppose one could triangulate it for neuropsychologists given TCN reports that data to determine any potential bias... but I'm pretty sure I'm not that bored... yet.

You are correct, its the best data we have. I think the saddest part is that ECP is defined as within 10 years of graduation. So, a mean of 55k for teaching jobs is sadly low. Doesn't that mean that there are a lot of Associate-level faculty included in that number? I am sure a lot of it is based on 9/10 month salary but still...

And I am in a teaching job, so I am still surprised.

 

[LPPSYD]

I skimmed other responses but it sounds like I'm echoing what others are saying. Think very carefully about the Psy.D. because high amounts of student loan debt are a big deal. I went to a university-based program that was at a private school, and therefore had high tuition. You cannot fully comprehend how much the interest builds. And don't forget that PSLF is likely going away. I had a great experience in my program, and my husband and I make pretty comfortable salaries. However, I am still devoting a large chunk of my income to get rid of my loans each month. For that reason, I will always tell someone it is not worth it in the end. Get a master's-level degree instead, go to one of the lower cost Psy.D. programs (Rutgers, Baylor), or do it the right way and try to get a Ph.D.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Think very carefully about the Psy.D. unless you happen to be wealthy/have someone to pay your debt for you. .

I’d offer that you should think very carefully even if you are wealthy. Certainly, if someone else is footing the bill (and a QUARTER MILLION DOLLAR bill at that), you should think even more carefully than if you were tossing around your own money. Presumably, someone worked hard and smart for that money- don’t be the person/ generation that just throws it around unwisely and selfishly. Bad investments are bad investments.

 

[LPPSYD]

I’d offer that you should think very carefully even if you are wealthy. Certainly, if someone else is footing the bill (and a QUARTER MILLION DOLLAR bill at that), you should think even more carefully than if you were tossing around your own money. Presumably, someone worked hard and smart for that money- don’t be the person/ generation that just throws it around unwisely and selfishly. Bad investments are bad investments.

Agreed. My comment was meant sort of facetiously (i.e., don't sign up for this unless you plan to fall ass-backwards into loads of money), but that's not entirely clear and you're right that someone may take that literally. I'm actually going to amend my post.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Agreed. My comment was meant sort of facetiously (i.e., don't sign up for this unless you plan to fall ass-backwards into loads of money), but that's not entirely clear and you're right that someone may take that literally. I'm actually going to amend my post.

No real criticism of you intended- I totally get your point. I’m just at a point in life where my progeny will soon be considering college, and I’m very mindful of the “it’s not my money” approach to life!