MD Questions from an IMG (Lots)

[commonwealthMD]

Hello SDN, this is going to be long winded, you've been warned

I am an MB ChB medical student from the UK (Keele Med). Once I finish my FY1 year after graduating I hope to apply to residency in the US as the training is significantly shorter, and obviously attending salaries here are pretty appauling and there is limited private practice. Currently I am undecided on what I want to specialize in though I am currently interested in surgery. I understand that as an IMG my options for residency are limited compared to USMGs, which specialty in your opinion offers the best lifestyle / pay ratio that can be considered future proof (not taken over by mid levels, good demand, stable reimbursements) etc... I don't know if this is even possible to answer...

I was thinking of gen surg, as I'm pretty sure mid-levels won't be taking over surgery any time soon; however I know the residency is grueling. I also thought if I did gen surg I could subspecialise in something to increase my earning potential and perhaps it would have made those 5/6 yrs of hell worth it? I think I am right in thinking gen surg attendings earn around 400K? If there wasn't an bias against IMGs I would love to match into ophtamology based on its pay/lifestyle/interest.

I am still an MS2 out of 5 so I have a lot of time to decide and make myself a competetive applicant, I am extremely hard working and will do what it takes to score high in 2 CK and publish, get US CE etc... money to travel to the US won't be an issue, nor will student loans.

Question: Are IMGs from the UK preferred over a US IMG from the Carribean or an IMG from a third world country with identical stats? If I were a PD I would hire someone who went to a commonwealth med school > a third world med school... Though perhaps they are all viewed equally. Keele was ranked higher than cambridge last year, though I doubt it is very well known in the states as I'm sure PDs only know Oxbridge and UCL...

I know I am probably going to get a lot of comments stating 'you are only an MS1 think about this in a few years blah blah blah" but I feel it is best to get ahead early. I am dead set on going to the US for residency, I love the US and I think it will open a lot of doors. Additionally US trained physicians can work in the UK but UK trained physicians can't work in the US despite the significantly longer training.

Lastly, the least important question that I don't understand is the NYSED MB ChB -> MD thing.. NYS Medicine:Conferral of M.D. Degree

How does this work? There is very little information online that I could find. This would be useful once I get licensed as I know patients are much more familiar with the M.D. degree than the equivalent MBBS/MB ChB/MBBCh alphabet soup. Are you awarded an actual M.D. from a medical school / the state? Or does it simply give you permission to use the M.D. postnominal? From what I have read it seems to award you with an M.D. which sounds too good to be true... Having to explain what MB ChB is going to be an annoyance. I know in some states you can use MD without any special permission even if you have an MBBS/MB ChB as they are equivelent allopathic degrees (inb4 DOs complaining they can't use MD but MBBS can) Though as NY is one of the more 'img friendly' states, it is quite possible I would match there for residency and therefore would have to go through this process to use M.D.


Visa/Green card: I know most physicians get into residency with a Visa that lasts a few years then they have to return for 2yrs then reapply to work in the states. A little inconvenient but not the end of the world because I could practice my specialty back in the UK for 2 years. My question is how hard is it for a residency to offer you a green card? This would eliminate the need for me to return and I would be able to become a citizen after a few years which would be nice... Also I could buy a firearm, though I know NY is rather anti-gun.



I'll continue to work hard so that I may match into a residency program for a specialty I enjoy! Hopefully I hate ortho, derm, and plastics as those are off the table.


Cheers
CommonwealthMBBSMBCHBMMMBMBMSMMMBSMS.D.O.rn

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[ciestar]

No idea which set of candidates are “preferred” from overseas schools. That is very PD dependent. However, i’d imagine those with US citizenship/residency would be preferred mostly because there are zero potential visa issues.

Yes, we graduate with MD or DO from medical school. So even someone who doesnt complete a residency is still an MD/DO on paper and can use these creds.

 

[commonwealthMD]

No idea which set of candidates are “preferred” from overseas schools. That is very PD dependent. However, i’d imagine those with US citizenship/residency would be preferred mostly because there are zero potential visa issues.

Yes, we graduate with MD or DO from medical school. So even someone who doesnt complete a residency is still an MD/DO on paper and can use these creds.

In a sense I agree. However, Non-US IMGs are just people who went to medical school in their own country and managed to get in, though Carib US IMGs are generally people who underperformed and are therefore more looked down upon

 

[deleted480308]

In a sense I agree. However, Non-US IMGs are just people who went to medical school in their own country and managed to get in, though Carib US IMGs are generally people who underperformed and are therefore more looked down upon

I think you are mistaken if you are implying nonus imgs aren’t also looked down on in residency admissions. Generally they are.

I’m not making a pitch for or against that, just stating my assesment

 

[commonwealthMD]

I think you are mistaken if you are implying nonus imgs aren’t also looked down on in residency admissions. Generally they are.

I’m not making a pitch for or against that, just stating my assesment

I didn't say that, of course they are compared to USMGs, but I think an IMG from the anglosphere is probably preferred over a Carib

 

[deleted480308]

I didn't say that, of course they are compared to USMGs, but I think an IMG from the anglosphere is probably preferred over a Carib

If the student is american going to the carribean I would agree with that statement

 

[libertyyne]

Who knows what the future will hold. There have been a large number of schools opening that will add stress to the match. Fmgs will probably get squeezed more.
You should be working hard. Doing well in school , doing research, set up rotations in the US and then apply and see.
everything could change overnight .

amg >>>>>us img >>>>> Fmg.

Like why the hell would I want to deal with visa issues if I don’t have to and I have a bunch of people with similar or slightly worse apps that I could just hire instead.

 

[Animalcules]

Who knows what the future will hold. There have been a large number of schools opening that will add stress to the match. Fmgs will probably get squeezed more.
You should be working hard. Doing well in school , doing research, set up rotations in the US and then apply and see.
everything could change overnight .

amg >>>>>us img >>>>> Fmg.

Like why the hell would I want to deal with visa issues if I don’t have to and I have a bunch of people with similar or slightly worse apps that I could just hire instead.

You will be preferred over US-IMG at major programs, assuming you went to a medical school in your own country and did well.

No program offers Green Cards. This is not how it works. Read up on J-1 and H-1B.

Nobody cares about the MD/ MBBS stuff and you should not waste your time thinking about it at this time of your career.

 

[commonwealthMD]

You will be preferred over US-IMG at major programs, assuming you went to a medical school in your own country and did well.

No program offers Green Cards. This is not how it works. Read up on J-1 and H-1B.

Nobody cares about the MD/ MBBS stuff and you should not waste your time thinking about it at this time of your career.

Good to hear Not worried about MD/MBBS, just something I would do if I got the time. I've read up on some visas and know that with one of them you have to return to your home country after residency and reapply, which is fine I guess.

 

[libertyyne]

You will be preferred over US-IMG at major programs, assuming you went to a medical school in your own country and did well.

No program offers Green Cards. This is not how it works. Read up on J-1 and H-1B.

Nobody cares about the MD/ MBBS stuff and you should not waste your time thinking about it at this time of your career.

Not sure if you qouted the right person, but there are literally more programs which will consider a person if they dont have to deal with visa issues.
The match rate for USIMGs is still better compared to FMGs , marginally though, even though they have lower step 1 and 2 scores on average.

This chart is a little older, but it shows that the odds of matching from country of orgin of medical school . Even ireland doesnt necessarily get a higher chance.

 

[Animalcules]

Not sure if you qouted the right person, but there are literally more programs which will consider a person if they dont have to deal with visa issues.
The match rate for USIMGs is still better compared to FMGs , marginally though, even though they have lower step 1 and 2 scores on average.

View attachment 297146
This chart is a little older, but it shows that the odds of matching from country of orgin of medical school . Even ireland doesnt necessarily get a higher chance.
View attachment 297147

Right, there is much more heterogeneity among FMGs. He/She is applying from a highly ranked medical school in the UK, presumably native English speaker, trained in English. The OP will have a much, much easier time matching than any US-IMG, assuming his application looks decent. The stats above are not helpful for the OP to gauge his/her chances.

 

[libertyyne]

Right, there is much more heterogeneity among FMGs. He/She is applying from a highly ranked medical school in the UK, presumably native English speaker, trained in English. The OP will have a much, much easier time matching than any US-IMG, assuming his application looks decent. The stats above are not helpful for the OP to gauge his/her chances.

I did give the example of ireland for this exact reason for someone coming from an international setting where cultural/language similarities may exist. It is interesting that very few people come from the UK to the united states. I am not as optimistic as you are, and just due to the fact that visa issues exist limits the number of residencies that OP can apply to since many programs clearly outline that they do not sponsor visas.

 

[Pepe18]

.

 

[commonwealthMD]

I did give the example of ireland for this exact reason for someone coming from an international setting where cultural/language similarities may exist. It is interesting that very few people come from the UK to the united states. I am not as optimistic as you are, and just due to the fact that visa issues exist limits the number of residencies that OP can apply to since many programs clearly outline that they do not sponsor visas.

Hmmm maybe. I just don't see it though. If I had an applicant from India vs the UK with identical stats I would sponsor the guy from the UK. Also I'm not aware of any internationally recognized med schools in India unlike Oxbridge, UCL, Kings, Keele etc etc... lots of well known schools in the UK, it's where medical schools began after all (arguably)

Would you rather hire a US Citizen St. George's grad, or a Cambridge/UCL/Oxford/Keele grad but have to sponsor a visa?

 

[libertyyne]

Hmmm maybe. I just don't see it though. If I had an applicant from India vs the UK with identical stats I would sponsor the guy from the UK. Also I'm not aware of any internationally recognized med schools in India unlike Oxbridge, UCL, Kings, Keele etc etc... lots of well known schools in the UK, it's where medical schools began after all (arguably)

Ireland was an example given above, there are soo few people coming from the UK it doesnt even register in that chart with top number of applicants. Just because you dont know the name of the indian medical schools, doesnt mean that there arent great ones that are probably more difficult for indians to get into than any school in the uk, just considering their population size and competition.
I have to give a visa to someone anyway, thats a headache. Also keep in mind there are many sweatshops that exploit foreign medical grads in terms of hours because they are kind of stuck with the program. You can think what you want. But dont be surprised if your international school pedigree doesnt buy you much here when you are applying.

The advice would remain the same, do well in school, do research, some rotations here, exceptional on boards, apply and see what happens.

 

[Splenda88]

Good to hear Not worried about MD/MBBS, just something I would do if I got the time. I've read up on some visas and know that with one of them you have to return to your home country after residency and reapply, which is fine I guess.

Once you are selected in the match and apply for a license to which ever state you going to do your residency, you get conferred the MD AUTOMATICALLY. There are a few residents from Africa in my program that have MBChB or some other acronym, they all have a MD license. (their names in the system say MD; the white coat, the bad etc... have MD on them).

 

[Splenda88]

If you are an average student from your school, and can get 240+ in step2 + research + US rotation, you will match. It might not be General Surgery or Ophthalmology, but your chances for Peds/FM/IM are good even as a FMG.

 

[deleted480308]

Once you are selected in the match and apply for a license to which ever state you going to do your residency, you get conferred the MD AUTOMATICALLY. There are a few residents from Africa in my program that have MBChB or some other acronym, they all have a MD license. (their names in the system say MD; the white coat, the bad etc... have MD on them).

That’s not how that works. They may be classified in a computer as an MD because there aren’t a ton of european initials as options but the medical board doesn’t get to confer degrees.

And any idiot can print anything they want on a badge or coat, that doesn’t mean anything

 

[libertyyne]

That’s not how that works. They may be classified in a computer as an MD because there aren’t a ton of european initials as options but the medical board doesn’t get to confer degrees.

And any idiot can print anything they want on a badge or coat, that doesn’t mean anything

Correct me if I am wrong, its just that if you have an MBBS or something and you get licensed to practice you can represent yourself as an MD legally. Not that they are going to hand you a degree with that , just that you can represent yourself like that.

 

[commonwealthMD]

If you are an average student from your school, and can get 240+ in step2 + research + US rotation, you will match. It might not be General Surgery or Ophthalmology, but your chances for Peds/FM/IM are good even as a FMG.

There is a bit of a difference between ophthamology and gen surg lol...

I will certainly score higher than 240 in step2, I will work my ass off. Will also get a few months US CE during the summer breaks too.

 

[commonwealthMD]

That’s not how that works. They may be classified in a computer as an MD because there aren’t a ton of european initials as options but the medical board doesn’t get to confer degrees.

And any idiot can print anything they want on a badge or coat, that doesn’t mean anything

You are right. I think the NYSED issues an actual M.D. but in other states MBBS have the right to use MD as they are equivalent degrees. In NY it is illegal to use MD without an MD, hence they issue an actual Doctor of Medicine diploma so that you are 'officially' in their eyes an M.D. even though you earned an MBBS. It isn't even considered an honorary degree, it's the same as any USMG but issued by NY. There isn't much detail on it though... I was wondering which institution confers the degree and what is written on the diploma?

So I guess one could use MBBS or MD after their name interchangeably

 

[commonwealthMD]

Correct me if I am wrong, its just that if you have an MBBS or something and you get licensed to practice you can represent yourself as an MD legally. Not that they are going to hand you a degree with that , just that you can represent yourself like that.

NYSED does actually confer a proper Doctor of Medicine to MBBS holders if they are licensed to practice in the state of NY.

See here: NYS Medicine:Conferral of M.D. Degree

It's because using MD in NY without an MD is illegal, so they created a work around of sorts for us MBBS plebs

 

[Splenda88]

That’s not how that works. They may be classified in a computer as an MD because there aren’t a ton of european initials as options but the medical board doesn’t get to confer degrees.

And any idiot can print anything they want on a badge or coat, that doesn’t mean anything

I see what you are saying. I just looked up online the license of one my colleagues who graduated with a MBChB and it says MD.

 

[deleted480308]

Correct me if I am wrong, its just that if you have an MBBS or something and you get licensed to practice you can represent yourself as an MD legally. Not that they are going to hand you a degree with that , just that you can represent yourself like that.

NYS Medicine:Conferral of M.D. Degree

Licensed Professions: Medicine

www.op.nysed.gov

Well crap, I just learned something. That’s dumb, but apparently real

 

[commonwealthMD]

I see what you are saying. I just look up online the license of one my colleagues who graduated with a MBChB and it says MD.

You will rarely find an FMG with MBBS after their name. They typically change it to M.D. as soon as they become licensed due to it being more recognized by laypersons.

 

[commonwealthMD]

NYS Medicine:Conferral of M.D. Degree

Licensed Professions: Medicine

www.op.nysed.gov

Well crap, I just learned something. That’s dumb, but apparently real

I guess it is kinda silly. They should just allow MBBS to use MD and they wouldn;t need to do that. I don't really see an issue as they are the same degree just with different names... It would be dumb for DOs to be awarded an MD as they aren't allopathic degrees.

Or the UK should just issue the Doctor of Medicine like australia has begun to, or convert the MBBS to MD this side of the pond. Sadly I would then miss out on nurses saying "HeS nOt A rEaL DoCtOr hE dOeSnT hAvE a DoCtOrAtE" to the junior doctors.

 

[Splenda88]

You will rarely find an FMG with MBBS after their name. They typically change it to M.D. as soon as they become licensed due to it being more recognized by laypersons.

It's not about initials that are embroidered on white coat or badge or whatever. The states themselves have MD in their designation. So they are MD by reciprocity. It's just automatic.

 

[deleted480308]

I guess it is kinda silly. They should just allow MBBS to use MD and they wouldn;t need to do that. I don't really see an issue as they are the same degree just with different names... It would be dumb for DOs to be awarded an MD as they aren't allopathic degrees.

Or the UK should just issue the Doctor of Medicine like australia has begun to, or convert the MBBS to MD this side of the pond. Sadly I would then miss out on nurses saying "HeS nOt A rEaL DoCtOr hE dOeSnT hAvE a DoCtOrAtE" to the junior doctors.

They should have you call yourself the name on your actual degree and leave it at that. Either the mbbs is good enough and you should use it or it’s not and you shouldn’t practice here

 

[commonwealthMD]

It's not about initials that are embroidered on white coat or badge or whatever. The states themselves have MD in their designation. So they are MD by reciprocity. It's just automatic.

An MBBS doesn't become an MD as soon as they step foot in the US and become licensed. They are just given the designation of MD for convenience sake. Unless you go to NY where they will hand out a free M.D. to any MBBS

 

[commonwealthMD]

They should have you call yourself the name on your actual degree and leave it at that. Either the mbbs is good enough and you should use it or it’s not and you shouldn’t practice here

The two are equivalent degrees, you could argue that an MBBS is more qualified as med school here is 5 years not 4 as we don't have to waste 4 years in college majoring in Lesbian dance theory... but that's a different story. It's got nothing to do with it 'being good enough' clearly it is otherwise the US wouldn't accept any FMGs. MD is used on whitecoats and such because a patient has no ****ing idea what an MB ChB BOA is.... they would probably assume it is just another variation of nurse.

 

[Splenda88]

An MBBS doesn't become an MD as soon as they step foot in the US and become licensed. They are just given the designation of MD for convenience sake. Unless you go to NY where they will hand out a free M.D. to any MBBS

I guess we are getting into semantics here. The two degrees are interchangeable and I will leave it at that.

 

[deleted480308]

The two are equivalent degrees, you could argue that an MBBS is more qualified as med school here is 5 years not 4 as we don't have to waste 4 years in college majoring in Lesbian dance theory... but that's a different story. It's got nothing to do with it 'being good enough' clearly it is otherwise the US wouldn't accept any FMGs. MD is used on whitecoats and such because a patient has no ****ing idea what an MB ChB BOA is.... they would probably assume it is just another variation of nurse.

I don’t find that confusion to be a reason to misrepresent the degree that was actually earned. But I acknowledge no medical board cares what I think

 

[libertyyne]

The two are equivalent degrees, you could argue that an MBBS is more qualified as med school here is 5 years not 4 as we don't have to waste 4 years in college majoring in Lesbian dance theory... but that's a different story. It's got nothing to do with it 'being good enough' clearly it is otherwise the US wouldn't accept any FMGs. MD is used on whitecoats and such because a patient has no ****ing idea what an MB ChB BOA is.... they would probably assume it is just another variation of nurse.

if mbbs was more qualified we would be bending over backwards to get more of them into the most competitive fields. Pro-tip we arent.
If anything we have a longer pathway that weeds out more people and 8 years of education including prerequisites in the sciences , not just lesbian dance.

 

[Splenda88]

if mbbs was more qualified we would be bending over backwards to get more of them into the most competitive fields. Pro-tip we arent.
If anything we have a longer pathway that weeds out more people and 8 years of education including prerequisites in the sciences , not just lesbian dance.

True, but one can argue the overall curriculum get be reduced to 6 years (3+3) and we won't be turning into midlevels in term of knowledge..

It was amazing that a few weeks ago the dean of our GME program candidly said that one year can be taken out of most residencies (with the caveat of some restructuring) and residents will learn more in their first 6 months of attending-hood than what they would have learned in the last year of residency.

 

[libertyyne]

True, but one can argue the overall curriculum get be reduced to 6 years (3+3) and we won't be turning into midlevels in term of knowledge..

It was amazing that a few weeks ago the dean of our GME program candidly said that one year can be taken out of most residencies and residents will learn more in their first 6 months of attending-hood that what they would have learned in the last year of residency.

yes, it was merely a response to how somehow an MBBS is more qualified because they went to medical school for 5 years.

 

[Med Ed]

you could argue that an MBBS is more qualified as med school here is 5 years not 4 as we don't have to waste 4 years in college majoring in Lesbian dance theory... but that's a different story.

How do you say "shower" in German, again?

 

[catnip12]

Dude...OP you’re all over the place! You gotta work on some chill before you come over.

 

[commonwealthMD]

if mbbs was more qualified we would be bending over backwards to get more of them into the most competitive fields. Pro-tip we arent.
If anything we have a longer pathway that weeds out more people and 8 years of education including prerequisites in the sciences , not just lesbian dance.

We too have 2 years of prerequisites in sciences at a college level. You have to study Chem, Bio and usually Math to get into medical school and score top grades. They are called 'A-levels'

 

[IMG69]

All of our graduates who head to the US instantly get it changed to MD without any hassle or anything. Simply because patients are more familiar with it. i'm not even sure why your thinking about this??

 

[commonwealthMD]

All of our graduates who head to the US instantly get it changed to MD without any hassle or anything. Simply because patients are more familiar with it. i'm not even sure why your thinking about this??

It was just a passing thought. I did mention above that I don't really care but people kept going on about it.

 

[libertyyne]

We too have 2 years of prerequisites in sciences at a college level. You have to study Chem, Bio and usually Math to get into medical school and score top grades. They are called 'A-levels'

You act like we don’t have to do well in a level equivalents to get into a good college to begin with and then Mcat.

Please express and volunteer this opinion you are espousing. if you ever get to interview or rotate here.

 

[commonwealthMD]

You act like we don’t have to do well in a level equivalents to get into a good college to begin with and then Mcat.

Please express and volunteer this opinion you are espousing. if you ever get to interview or rotate here.

I didn't say that you don't have to get good grades...

 

[IMGASMD]

Are you a troll, op?

 

[samac]

The two are equivalent degrees, you could argue that an MBBS is more qualified as med school here is 5 years not 4 as we don't have to waste 4 years in college majoring in Lesbian dance theory... but that's a different story. It's got nothing to do with it 'being good enough' clearly it is otherwise the US wouldn't accept any FMGs. MD is used on whitecoats and such because a patient has no ****ing idea what an MB ChB BOA is.... they would probably assume it is just another variation of nurse.

You’re going to screw yourself over if you keep attitudes that include this. You’ve been all over the place and seem to overall think negatively of our training and just want the $$$$. You’ll not have a good shot at training here unless you pull yourself together.
You’ve got a long time to go now, we’ll see where you stand in a few years. Until then calm down.

 

[commonwealthMD]

You’re going to screw yourself over if you keep attitudes that include this. You’ve been all over the place and seem to overall think negatively of our training and just want the $$$$. You’ll not have a good shot at training here unless you pull yourself together.
You’ve got a long time to go now, we’ll see where you stand in a few years. Until then calm down.

I don't think negatively of your training at all.... I merely defended our training. And no I don't just want money, but I will work wherever pays the most for my service.

 

[samac]

I don't think negatively of your training at all.... I merely defended our training. And no I don't just want money, but I will work wherever pays the most for my service.

“I don’t want money, but I want money”

 

[commonwealthMD]

“I don’t want money, but I want money”

"just" want money. Of course I want money, who doesn't? I didn't go into medicine for money as I wasn't even aware that going to the states was possible as an IMG due to the competition and was expecting to work for the NHS. Doctors are leaving the UK in droves to Australia because we aren't paid **** for what we do here, there's no shame in wanting to make a good living.

 

[IMGASMD]

Are you a troll, op?

There is no shame for wanting to make a good living. There are a lot of things that I can think of pay better than medicine if you do them well.

No need to this kind of abuse nor responsibility for a buck. (That’s American for dollar...). I think you know that, since I am not totally convinced that you’re a Brit.

 

[chaim123]

Dude...OP you’re all over the place! You gotta work on some chill before you come over.

And this is what happens when 18 year olds enter medicine, as is commonplace in other countries. Hopefully OP will undergo much growth in their program

 

[catnip12]

See here’s the thing OP, I actually went the IGCSE -> AS -> A2 before I moved and did my undergraduate here in the US. I had exams in both Edexcel and Cambridge and so I am completely in sync with that system and can tell you from my perspective that the level of science you learn in your AS and A2 is no where near what you’re going to learn as a Biochemistry major in Undergraduate for example. A levels =/= Undergraduate rigour and I know that because I’ve done both.