Questions regarding DO

[DarkChild]

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a few points:
1) even if OMT achieves results solely throught the placebo effect, what is the big deal? WTF is the point in explaining to a patient why she's got a headache if you cant do anything about it? If I've got migraines - FIX IT. I dont give an F how you do it, i just want it gone. IMHO at some point medicine really boils down to what works rather than why something works.
2) the whole USMLE pass rate issue is taken out of context. DO students arent taught for the USMLE, they're taught for the COMLEX. I wonder what the path rate for MD students would be on the COMLEX? To berate DO's for a less than stellar USMLE pass rate is ignorant.
3) be wary of the categorical persecution of DO's. nothing good has ever come out of zealous fanaticism. it is good that there is more than one point of view on medical treatment; there is more than one way to skin a cat (btw - who would do that to a kitty anyway?!)
4) and this for me is a philosophical issue that even now makes me wonder what i'm doing going to med school:
as i get closer and closer to entering the medical world i am increasingly concerned with the callous way in which medicine is administered. its one thing to say that residents and interns are overworked and dont have time to care enough emotionally about their patients - but that still doesnt make it right. from what i understand, DOs and MDs have a fundamentally different approach to medicine with DO's being much more hands on.
"I don't know of any osteopathic physician who at some point in the physical exam doesn't have a hand on the patient," says Roy. "It could be a shoulder, back, thigh, or knee. Just the idea that there's a connection being established. That's how we've been trained. Is it subjective, touchy-feely stuff that's hard to document? God, yes! But it certainly goes to the heart of what makes us different."
source: http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m3229/n8_v75/20775730/print.jhtml
that is MY idea of a physician. it isnt someone who is there to diagnose your illness, give you a couple pills and send you on your way. maybe I am a little naive, but I want more. we (especially on this board) expect doctors to be more than just booksmart (for instance the sheer number of times people say that getting in to med school is more than stats - e.g. kreno in this thread). yet the only folks who actually embrace this idea are DO's. it should make you think.
and if it doesnt. thats ok - you're wrong.
🙂

 

[bw07]

Average GPAs and MCAT's are lower for DOs than (US) MDs. This is a fact and there's no point arguing about it. It's a very poor argument to say that some DO schools have higher statistics than some MD schools because you're comparing TOP DO vs. Bottom MD (therefore weakening your argument). If the stats were truly equal, than the top DO schools should only be compared to the top MD schools, and assuredl,y no DO school has 36 and 3.8 averages like Hopkins and Harvard.

NOW, that said, in no way do I assume that having a DO or an MD means how good of a doctor you are in general. Obviously both types run the spectrum from horrible to excellent. HOWEVER, returning to the ORIGINAL point of this thread, I can understand how MD surgeons or Internal Medicine subspecialty fellows trained in allopathic institutions would be superior to DOs trained in osteopathic surgical residencies and subspecialty fellowships on AVERAGE (with exceptions obviously). As has been mentioned, that is because they see MORE cases with more DIVERSITY. I am correlating experience and quality to the training and volume, NOT to the degrees. Again, I'm speaking ONLY about heavily procedural specialties which are simply practiced more at allopathic institutions.

Returning to another point made earlier in this thread, it is a very weak and unproved point that "MD schools take people with great stats and nothing else and DO schools look at the whole applicant." I'm calling BS here. This is how it is: MD schools take people with good stats AND good experiences and DO schools take people with slightly lower stats AND good experiences. To argue anything else is ridiculous. Now, you could certainly convince me that DO students have had MORE experiences than MD students but this would be because they are on average, OLDER. That doesn't make their experiences BETTER. To be honest, I think this comes down to pride. DO matricultants want to believe that their MD counterparts spent so much studying to get their high stats that they didn't get clinical experiences or so forth. The truth is, we were able to do BOTH and this doesn't sit well with (some) DO students who believe that "hmm, great stats and great clinical/life experiences are mutually exclusive." Now, I'm not going to correlate higher statistics with being a better doctor, but the fact remains that they can be used at some level. Clearly, DO schools don't accept people with 1.0 GPAs for a reason so there has got to be a point at which you consider it. I just don't know how you would make that determination.

 

[awdc]

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
It is just smoke and mirrors, how many times do I have to say this "PLACEBO EFFECT." Since this is obviously not working how about another term "scientific method", did we totally forget about this.

Hmmm... I wonder if this makes hands-on physical therapy techniques just as scientifically bogus. I'm sure there's no way to blind a physical therapist to the manual treatment s/he is giving either. Yet, many physicians refer patients to PT's...

One more thought: OMM must be a pretty strong placebo for it to have comparable efficacy to anagesics for low back pain, don't you think?

 

[cg1]

Originally posted by bw07
Clearly, DO schools don't accept people with 1.0 GPAs for a reason so there has got to be a point at which you consider it.

Neither do beauty schools accept less than 1.0 GPA's, and I wouldn't want a beauty-school grad operating on me. 😱



{tap, tap} Is this mike on?


And yes, I crack myself up sometimes.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

[CG-RN-MD2B]

Originally posted by kreno
okay, guys... generalizations based on a few stories don't work.. fine... but

lets get serious here. i'm sure there are compedent DO's out there... but

um... they ARE second-class doctors and will continue to be so-long as they are so easily admitted.

At michigan state oseopathic medical school, average MCAT scores are 24... and gpa like a 3.4

now i'm NOT saying or implying that HIGH GPA+HIGH MCAT = GOOD DOCTOR... but there is a limit. Would you want someone diagnosing you... thinking dynamically, blah blah blah... that was only motivated enough to get a 3.4 in college and a 24 on the MCAT? You just *HAVE* to draw the line somewhere.

Also, as far as the professional community is concerned... they're just NOT respected in the yes of most PhD's, MD's, Dentists, etc. My PHD reserach prof the other day was making fun of the DO, PhD program... calling them "Doffs" and questing why the heck someone would bother with just a long program and not just get a "real medical degree."

In any regard, DO hospitals are generally less-funded and have a lot less opportunity...

I know at Michigan state, where DO and MD students take the SAME science coursework the first year, MD students consistently score better on exams.

And, of course, there have been studies which correlate MCAT score with later USMLE performance and even clinical skills... so, again, even though it's not perfect.... there is a line. I'M SORRY BUT IF YOU GOT A 24 ON THE MCAT YOU'RE *NOT* GONNA BE THE ONE DIAGNOSING *MY* KID. period.

And what i was saying about motivation before... i'm an avid believer that GPA is MUCH more correlated to motivation than intelligence.... and therefore, when someone goes into medicine and has a low GPA, and therefore only gets into DO school... a low GPA tells me something about their overall motivation (with the exception, of course, of people that had significant instances in their life which caused a lowering of their GPA).


kreno

This little kid keeps posting some of the dumbest opinions I've ever heard. It's actually quite funny. Guess what, dude. In the future, all primary care docs are going to be DOs and YOU are going to be living off the referrals of US, the primary care DOs. If you don't watch what the F*** you're doing, you're gonna be begging for our forgiveness so you can feed your family.

 

[Ischemia]

I cannot believe what this thread mushroomed into over night. But, okay...

Someone said earlier that "...no allopathic school..." would admit anyone to their program with a 45 and 4.0 unless they had previous clinical experience. That is not true. If you look in the MSAR, you will see that nobody above a 40 MCAT was turned down for admission.

A first year DO student said that DOs should only be in primary-care. I don't want to attack his personality or anything of the sort, but that is the dumbest statement I've ever heard. There are many fine DO specialists. And, as previously stated and commonly accepted, what matters to a specialist is where s/he receives residency training, not necessarily where s/he receives a doctoral degree from. To that end, there are many DOs at top-tier allopathic residency programs across the country.

Someone also compared DOs to chiropractors earlier. I think we'd all agree that they are completely distinct in all areas (except OMT, where there appears to be a similarity only because of hands-on physical techniques; even then, there are differences). If we wouldn't agree, you haven't clearly read up on what osteopathic medicine is.

I can't wait for some of these MD students to look like a fool in front of a DO attending. Now, I'm sure (due to MCAT scores) that these MD kids obviously have the common sense to not completely disrespect a DO attending, but their pompous attitudes will shine through.

 

[group_theory]

And the cycles continues

Obviously we're not going to change anyone's mind here. But that's OK. They're undergraduate PREMEDS who have NO EXPERIENCE in the real world. They're locked up in their college world surrounded by premed friends, trying to decide whether they should go to HMS or Hopkins or WashU based on other people's preception and not whether or not the school is the right fit for them.

Do people honestly care if their docs are MDs or DOs? HECK NO. Most don't even know what a DO is. So why would people GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to avoid DOs if they don't know what they are?

Please tell this dumb pre-DO student (who btw got above a 30 MCAT TWICE) the logic behind that argument.

People don't choose doctors based on degrees. In fact, people shouldn't be choosing doctors based on medical school eithers. There are more relevant factors that they should consider - such as where they did their residencies, are they board certified, how long have they been practicing, etc. People choose their doctors based on whether they are listed in their HMO booklet, or how friendly and caring a doctor is, or the proximity of their office location and office hours, etc. MDs or DOs mean nothing to them - if they wear a labcoat, can write Rx, and admit to hospitals - they are good enough for them.

Very few people actively choose MDs over DOs. There are some who go exclusively to DOs for OMT. But a vast majority of people just don't care. There are a lot of people who don't even know that their doctors are DOs.

Just remember this story that was told to me by an attending:
At MCP Hosital, a group of medical students were following some residents and this particular attending on rounds. They noticed another group of DO students and doctors doing rounds. One of them goes "Look over there at the doctor-wanna-be. They couldn't get into a real medical school." And everyone laughed. All except this one particular attending. The attending looks at the naive student and goes "You do know I'm a DO right?"

Group_theory

 

[aquaboy]

Originally posted by group_theory

Please tell this dumb pre-DO student (who btw got above a 30 MCAT TWICE) the logic behind that argument.

group theory,
Why did you take the MCAT 2x if you got above a 30. You would be a shoe-in at any DO school with a score above a 30, even if you have a low GPA. Did you apply to both MD schools and DO schools and not get accepted at an allopathic school? I don't understand why you would take the MCAT 2x if you are so bent on going the DO route? Just a little confused! Please clarify.
😕 😕 😕 😕

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
This little kid keeps posting some of the dumbest opinions I've ever heard. It's actually quite funny. Guess what, dude. In the future, all primary care docs are going to be DOs and YOU are going to be living off the referrals of US, the primary care DOs. If you don't watch what the F*** you're doing, you're gonna be begging for our forgiveness so you can feed your family.

funny, your name has "MD2B" in it, yet you are going to be a DO? How about that MCAT? 😎

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally posted by georgesltd56
Hot babes gets ***** HARD & **** HUGE 20 inches ***** !! CLICK HERE !!

....

Was that a DO site for manipulation of the pubocockus? I've always wondered how they treated that bone...

 

[applegirl]

I think that a lot of MD's fear change. Things have been the same for so many years and here come DO's with a new philosophy on the profession of medicine. The truth is that patients don't care whether the doctor is an MD or DO, they care whether they like him/her, are comfortable with him/her, and whether he/she is competent.

Here I go with my generalizations. Many, many MD's I met were pompous bastards. One of them wanted to ruin my life (I don't want to get into that). On the other hand, I found that more (at least to my perception) DO's were more down to earth and normal. I had my misconceptions about DO school, but the truth is that I will end up doing with my life what I want to do. I want to treat and help patients. Honestly, it is up to each individual to chosoe what type of physician he/she will be. Nice or Pompous so that your patients are afraid of asking you questions because you will laugh in their face (I had my MD do that to me, and my question was not stupid. Trust me on that)

 

[merlin17]

So my question is, how likely is it that if I stay in Boston, I will ever find an attending that is a DO? I have worked at a lot of hospitals in the area, and although their may be a handful of DO's at MGH, the Brigham or Boston Children's, I have yet to meet one (maybe I didn't read some people's name tags, but I really don't think I have met one). When you see them listed as hospital staff, you also don't know what they are doing in the hospital...i.e. an MD working in a cell biology lab would show up as an MD employee of the Brigham but would never be found on the wards.

After reading some particularly harsh DO/MD arguments, I did ask a few of my friends what they thought about the subject. They all had very unfavorable opinions of osteopathy, but they too had never met a DO (I was surprised that they knew the difference but they did).

What I'm trying to say is that I have run into stereotypes from both pre-meds and people outside the field, but neither of these stereotypes are based upon real encounters with DO's. Unfortunately, I'm afraid these stereotypes will continue to exist at least around here simply because of lack of exposure.

I will say that my opinions have greatly changed after learning that one of my coworkers was planning on attending a DO school next year. He wants to practice rural medicine which I think is just fantastic since that is something I know that I could never handle. I would never think less of him because he didn't do well on the MCATs or maybe didn't do as well in college as he might have. I think that SDN does a lot to perpetuate any stereotypes pre-allopaths might have because for some reason all these posts that suggest that pre-MD's are young, arrogant, unqualified beside a post that claims "I had a 20 MCAT and a 3.2 gpa and just got into an osteopathic school" don't make any pre-md feel so great, particulary when their 32, 3.6 and 500 hours of volunteer work hasn't gotten them an allopathic school yet. Things are said on these boards that would never be said in person. Sometimes they can irk you in the wrong way, and it seems like these MD/DO arguments do that on both ends.

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
....

Was that a DO site for manipulation of the pubocockus? I've always wondered how they treated that bone...

Dats some funny shiz.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
This little kid keeps posting some of the dumbest opinions I've ever heard. It's actually quite funny. Guess what, dude. In the future, all primary care docs are going to be DOs and YOU are going to be living off the referrals of US, the primary care DOs. If you don't watch what the F*** you're doing, you're gonna be begging for our forgiveness so you can feed your family.

funny, your name has "MD2B" in it, yet you are going to be a DO? How about that MCAT? 😎

 

[What the pho]

Question to the pro-DO people. How come you guys don't address the issue of the validity of OMM? Yes I'm sure some of you are likely to become great physicians, just as likely as some MDs well become terrible ones. But on the OMM/OMT/OPP thing I question it's foundation in science. I would admit that in some cases it does help back pain, but just because it works, doesn't mean we shouldn't investigate why and how it works. Just becauses a placebo works doesn't mean one has the right to bill uneducated patients for it. There are psychic healers who in the mind of the uninformed can heal all kinds of things from being paralyzed to demonic possesion, doesn't mean they should be able to practice medicine. When I was in undergrad taking calculus, we didn't blindly accept a therom or formula on the authority of the professor. He had to prove it or derive it for us before we accepted it as true. OMM/OMT/OPP should be the same way, if you disagree I have some cold fusion reactors that you might want to buy.

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by aquaboy
group theory,
Why did you take the MCAT 2x if you got above a 30. You would be a shoe-in at any DO school with a score above a 30, even if you have a low GPA. Did you apply to both MD schools and DO schools and not get accepted at an allopathic school? I don't understand why you would take the MCAT 2x if you are so bent on going the DO route? Just a little confused! Please clarify.
😕 😕 😕 😕

I felt that my score (from the first mcat) did not accurately reflect upon my knowledge and understanding of the material. I decided to take it a second time to see if I can raise it (more of a personal challenge). A good analogy would be a kid taking the SAT over again even though he got a 1510 - just to see if he could get that 1600.

I applied to both DO and MD schools and have gotten acceptances to both types. However, I choose PCOM because it was the right fit for me. I'm not choosing DO schools over MD schools or MD schools over DO schools - I'm choosing based on which school would I be happiest - which school would fit my needs, my desires. I'm choosing based on my "gut feelings". To choose a school based solely on the degree that it grants is to do a great injustice to oneself.

 

[PACtoDOC]

PHO,
The NIH gave millions last year to create the osteopathic research center at TCOM in Fort Worth, Texas. The studies are being controlled by some very skeptical PhD faculty who are seeing that there is no bias in the designs. If it shows that OMM is worthless and does nothing, then my guess is that you will hear about it. If it shows that there is a strong correlation between OMM and improved function, then what will you think then? I know you are not this far in your education, but let me bring up an example. When I have the choice to write a prescription for a muscle relaxer for a patient's recent lumbar strain, I might choose to write Soma (carisopradol) to help alleviate their discomfort. If you look in the PDR, which is a compilation of factoids approved by the FDA, under Soma, you will see that it states MECHANISM OF ACTION-UNKNOWN. Some question whether it is just the sedation that helps the patient or even if it works at all. But guess what, patients still ask for it on follow up. This is just like how patients ask for OMM when they come in for MS complaints. They being the patient know it works. I mean hell, there are thousands of chiropractors nationwide that have more business than they can drum up, and I don't think it is for their herbal supplements or MCAT scores. Now if you want to talk low standards, take a peak at chiro and Pod standards. But does this make them bad at what they do? No. And why do people keep coming back to them, because it works.

So, if I can offer someone something that they feel works, without getting them hooked on non-controlled Soma for instance that all providers know is addictive, then why wouldn't I use OMM??? Maybe I should tell them that DEUCE finds OMM to only be placebo, and thus I have decided not to use it any longer. Hey DEUCE, have you ever demanded a study on whether boxers or briefs affects your sex life more or less? But yet daily you put on one or the other I suppose, and place them right next to your only functional gyri. If you don't know what Gyri are, then head to Stedman's and see 🙂 You better call Jockey and demand that they immediately fund this study because if they don't your sex life could be at stake.

And for all who want to argue stats, how is it that a DO student can score the highest on the USMLE Step I the last two years with all those MD students in the country. Must be placebo I suppose.

 

[CJLaw]

Originally posted by kreno
At michigan state university (i know so much 'cuz i'm an undergrad here), again, there are two medical schools... an osteopathic AND an allopathic...

Dude, you don't even have your Bachelor's yet and your criticizing trained professionals?

That statement shows why you have an inexperienced outlook on professionalism. Maybe you might want to spend time in the workforce before you start med school to get some perspective.

 

[What the pho]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
PHO,
The NIH gave millions last year to create the osteopathic research center at TCOM in Fort Worth, Texas. The studies are being controlled by some very skeptical PhD faculty who are seeing that there is no bias in the designs. If it shows that OMM is worthless and does nothing, then my guess is that you will hear about it. If it shows that there is a strong correlation between OMM and improved function, then what will you think then?

I might start to think that OMM would have some merit, but like most things in science one study is not the end all be all. More reproducable studies should be done and more empirical evidence should be gathered.

 

[CJLaw]

Originally posted by merlin17
So my question is, how likely is it that if I stay in Boston, I will ever find an attending that is a DO? I have worked at a lot of hospitals in the area, and although their may be a handful of DO's at MGH, the Brigham or Boston Children's, I have yet to meet one (maybe I didn't read some people's name tags, but I really don't think I have met one). When you see them listed as hospital staff, you also don't know what they are doing in the hospital...i.e. an MD working in a cell biology lab would show up as an MD employee of the Brigham but would never be found on the wards.

After reading some particularly harsh DO/MD arguments, I did ask a few of my friends what they thought about the subject. They all had very unfavorable opinions of osteopathy, but they too had never met a DO (I was surprised that they knew the difference but they did).

What I'm trying to say is that I have run into stereotypes from both pre-meds and people outside the field, but neither of these stereotypes are based upon real encounters with DO's. Unfortunately, I'm afraid these stereotypes will continue to exist at least around here simply because of lack of exposure.

I will say that my opinions have greatly changed after learning that one of my coworkers was planning on attending a DO school next year. He wants to practice rural medicine which I think is just fantastic since that is something I know that I could never handle. I would never think less of him because he didn't do well on the MCATs or maybe didn't do as well in college as he might have. I think that SDN does a lot to perpetuate any stereotypes pre-allopaths might have because for some reason all these posts that suggest that pre-MD's are young, arrogant, unqualified beside a post that claims "I had a 20 MCAT and a 3.2 gpa and just got into an osteopathic school" don't make any pre-md feel so great, particulary when their 32, 3.6 and 500 hours of volunteer work hasn't gotten them an allopathic school yet. Things are said on these boards that would never be said in person. Sometimes they can irk you in the wrong way, and it seems like these MD/DO arguments do that on both ends.

You have to understand that in some areas of the country, DO's are not prominent. However, it states like PA they are as abundant as MD's. As you know, PA has MD institutions like Penn, Jeff, Penn State, Pitt, Temple, and Drexel. If you go to these schools websites and look at their current resident roster, you'll see many DO's. Its all about supply and demand. I admit that before being interested in a medical career, I had no idea what a DO was. Actually, I thought it was a board certification like FACES (or whatever) is. Since my discovery, I have seen no difference in the quality of care between MD and DO. In fact, the doctor who provided pre-natal care for my second child is a DO and he was awesome.

The last point I want to make is that I believe there is a HUGE difference between allopathic and osteopathic residencies. This is were DO's have the bad image. Because most Do hospitals are underfunded and in the boondocks, they do not see the volume of patients and the variety of illness that MD institutions do (especially in surgery as the OP suggested). My opinion is that DO/MD is an equivalent education, however allopathic graduate training is FAR superior.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Originally posted by What the pho
Question to the pro-DO people. How come you guys don't address the issue of the validity of OMM?.... But on the OMM/OMT/OPP thing I question it's foundation in science. I would admit that in some cases it does help back pain, but just because it works, doesn't mean we shouldn't investigate why and how it works.

I absolutely agree. If anything, our generation should be excited to figure out exactly what's up with OMT. If you are looking to make your mark in research, and you're a med student of any type, this might be a great field of research to get involved in.

One quick addendum: we use the term OMT for convenience, but we should all bear in mind that OMT encompasses a vast amount of techniques that aren't interrelated. A blanket denunciation or approval of OMT is sort of baby-with-the-bathwater-ish.

 

[ScheringPlough]

What's scary to me is how many of you egotistical snobs are actually going to be physicians. For a profession that's so respected and demands so much maturity, the lack of the latter is gravely disheartening.

I truly think many of you lack a true perception of what goes into the making of a good doctor.

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Maybe I should tell them that DEUCE finds OMM to only be placebo, and thus I have decided not to use it any longer. Hey DEUCE, have you ever demanded a study on whether boxers or briefs affects your sex life more or less? But yet daily you put on one or the other I suppose, and place them right next to your only functional gyri. If you don't know what Gyri are, then head to Stedman's and see 🙂 You better call Jockey and demand that they immediately fund this study because if they don't your sex life could be at stake.

And for all who want to argue stats, how is it that a DO student can score the highest on the USMLE Step I the last two years with all those MD students in the country. Must be placebo I suppose.

What are you talking about I was quoting the Journals of the AMA on the placebo thing. I?ve quoted them 3 times already for you gung-ho OMM fanatics, and highlighted it in bold, go back a few post and you?ll see it. I guess it takes more then repeating a quote 3 times for certain people in certain medical schools to get something. As for Gyri, I don?t need a Stedman?s, I have Moore and Dailey, Grants, Rohen & Yokochi, and if that all fails I have WebMD. No I won?t be using WebDO. I?m talking about the main defining feature of Osteopathy needing to be proven scientifically and your talking about study on reproduction and tight underwear. I?ve never demanded a study on how boxers and briefs affect ones sex life, because my boxer or briefs don?t proclaim to have a medical philosophy, that has curative properties, OMM does. That?s why OMM should be scientifically investigated, until then the jury is still out. OMM/OMT has only been around for ohh a 100 years or so. Why did it take so long for science based studies to be preformed, and nothing conclusive as of yet? When Watson & Crick where figuring out the DNA double helix did they just pull it out of their ass? Did everyone accept it for years w/out evidence? If Still believed in cold fusion and enron, you'd be buying it today.

As for the DO student with the highest USMLE score, I?d like to see where that information came from. I agree w/ PHO that some DOs are likely to become great physicians, just as likely as some MDs well become terrible ones.

 

[shanet74]

Originally posted by kreno

I'M SORRY BUT IF YOU GOT A 24 ON THE MCAT YOU'RE *NOT* GONNA BE THE ONE DIAGNOSING *MY* KID. period.

And what i was saying about motivation before... i'm an avid believer that GPA is MUCH more correlated to motivation than intelligence.... and therefore, when someone goes into medicine and has a low GPA, and therefore only gets into DO school... a low GPA tells me something about their overall motivation (with the exception, of course, of people that had significant instances in their life which caused a lowering of their GPA).


kreno

I know this is an emergency doc, but before you treat my kid who just got in a car accident will you please tell me what you got on your MCAT 10 years ago.....oh you only got a 24.....ok, I'll rush him over to a different hospital...thanks.....

Give me a break, it's folks like you that we should be scared of. You realize once your practicing that it is the person, not the numbers that make a good doctor...and even good doctors will make a mistake sometime. Who knows, you might actually make a mistake someday during your practice.

It's funny how numbers never come up once you've gotten into residency.

 

[skypilot]

As I stated before 65% of D.O.s do allopathic residencies, some at the most prestigious hospitals in the country. Most do not use the particular brand of physical therapy called manipulation but a few do and it seems to work for some patients.

If some D.O.s do not pass their licensing exams they will have to retake them I don't see how that affects me or the patients of D.O.s who did pass their exams. Anyone who thinks there is any difference between a student with a 3.2 and a student with a 3.4 other than perhaps the taking of a few "easy A" courses is mistaken. 😉

Also in a prior message someone derided the admission statistics of the D.O. schools by saying they admit students with an average of only 3.4. That is within a hairs breadth of the admission stats for the Allopathic schools. I believe Boston Universities average gpa is a 3.4.

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by kreno

AGAIN, WHAT *LIFE* EXPERIENCES DO YOU DO PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE OVER ALLOPATHS? DO schools "look past the numbers".... you're damn right... if they didn't they'd get scared!

Well, personally, I've been a paramedic for 13 years, worked 911 in the inner-city as well as the suburbs.

I've received letters of commendation from two of the cities I've worked for - one for a house fire where 5 children died, another for a cop who shot himself in front of his family.

I've started a pet therapy program at the hospital I work at.

These are life experiences that could not be completed in a summer break or a year off from school. These are life experiences that were well-received and appreciated by the osteopathic schools I interviewed. It's nice to have one's past appeciated and accepted.

- Tae

 

[saiyaman]

okay everyone, deep breaths....i think that sometimes premeds in general have a hard time distancing themselves from the constant competition inherent to the field of medicine. as such, they place an inordinate importance on what other people are doing in comparison to themselves. that said, i really don't understand why everyone gets so hung up on this MD vs DO debate. i am especially disturbed by some of the vitriolic comments made by fellow pre-MD's about DO's, as if their very presence were an insult. everyone has a different value system, and comes to their decisions on their own. i myself knew that i wanted to go to a "top-tier" medical school, but not to impress anyone as an ego boost, but rather, because it is important to me. that said, i also recognize that of the 6 billion people on this planet, no one outside of myself is really going to give a flying f**k that i got into a top 10 medical school or not. furthermore, it's not just a matter of that i would never look down on someone for having to "settle" for a DO, but rather, i don't care one way or another. that is that person's choice, that s/he arrived at on his or her own. i am not going to presume to know that person's life story, or achievements; rather, i would just congratulate them on a job well done. as offensive as some may find the thought of physicians out there who (gasp) got less than a 30 on the mcat, i find equally offensive the VAST number of premeds who are trying to get into medical school simply because their parents expect it. i guess what i want to say is that everyone should just chill and do the best they individually can, and let everyone else worry about themselves. 500 years from now, we'll all be dead anyway, and no one will have given a **** if we were an MD or DO...the only person who should care about that is us ourselves.
peace

PS also, for all the harping about lower DO numbers, how come no one ever questions the legitimacy of dentists...after all, their numbers are even lower than DO numbers (i am not at all implying that it should be questioned...dentists rock )🙂

 

[lattimer13]

why the hell do you people waste your time arguing over this? i've lost count of how many f-ing threads there are on this subject started by some ass that has nothing better to do, and even more idiots that chime in their support for this garbage just to piss off others and/or make themselves feel better. this $hit takes up too much space on the servers, no wonder SDN is so slow now and is in need of upgrades. it's because you guys plaster this crap all over these pages. don't worry either, i won't post on one of these worthless threads anymore to contribute to the problem!

as a future MD it makes me sick that i will someday have you pricks as my colleagues. grow up, get lives, get off your ego trips, and stop being a$$wipes.

 

[skypilot]

This could just as easily be a "why are doctors such jerks thread"!

 

[rotatores]

My favorite misconception is that life experiences make a better physician.

 

[Dr Sum Day]

Originally posted by kreno

AGAIN, WHAT *LIFE* EXPERIENCES DO YOU DO PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE OVER ALLOPATHS? DO schools "look past the numbers".... you're damn right... if they didn't they'd get scared!

hmmm....working since 1985, top science grades, top military awards, and frankly I have too much stuff to even waste space on this forum and on medical applications. kreno, inhale deeply, relax and free your mind, the snow may be overwhelming you haus, DO's can't be that bad 😉

 

[tkim]

I?d like to drill down to the root of what I see is the complaint of the detractors in this thread. And for those who are sick of the negative posts in this area ? I am tired of them too, but I also see it as an opportunity to clarify and perhaps dispel the assumptions and conclusions that are reached by some.

In a nutshell, the idea that higher GPAs and MCAT scores are reliable predictors of the production of better physicians. The difference between allopathic and osteopathic admissions statistics are commonly quoted as a 5 point difference in the MCAT ? 30 vs. 25, and a 0.2 difference in GPA ? 3.7 vs. 3.5. That I won?t argue with, since it does seem that those differences are clear.

What I don?t understand is if that comprises the largest argument against osteopathic admissions, there are certainly some allopathic schools which have similar, if not perhaps lower admissions stats, that I have not seen mentioned anywhere that perhaps fall under the same argument. It is telling, that if this is indeed the basis for the criticism of osteopathic admissions, that similar criticisms haven?t been posted by anyone participating in this thread, against those allopathic institutions. To me, this shows a bias against osteopaths specifically, and a disingenuity in general.

Now, the argument has been forwarded that high MCAT and GPA scores produce superior physicians. I would argue, as many have in this thread, that it really isn?t which school you go to, but where you receive your post-graduate residency training. This I agree with completely.

Anyway, getting back to what I see as the main argument ? higher MCAT and GPA scores produce better physicians or serve as an indicator of more qualified applicants. My opinion is that so long as you make it above a certain cut-off in those scores, and successfully gain entrance to medical school, the rest really is up to you in terms of how well you do in school, and where you go for post-graduate training.

I found a pretty good article about affirmative action ? specifically the admission of URMs that have lower-than-average MCAT and GPA scores. Certainly it could be argued that if raw numbers are the issue, then it isn?t isolated to osteopathic schools ? many allopathic schools admit URMs with lower scores and this subset of students do just fine.

The article addresses URMs with lower-than-average MCAT and GPA scores, but if raw numbers are at the heart of the argument, then the article could easily be used in the context of the discussion at hand.

I don?t expect to change anyone?s mind about their stance on the issue. I would like to think, perhaps, that as future colleagues and scientists, we can at least try to free ourselves from the bias that is formed through the anecdotal. Additionally, we should try not to perpetuate opinions and assumptions passed down from others that were formed during a different era and time, when perhaps things are not as they are now.

- Tae

http://www.tju.edu/jmc/alumni/AB/March2002CampusNews.pdf

?Critics argue that affirmative action is in fact bad for the health of the public because it produces substandard doctors admitted to medical school under substandard qualifications. As one critic put it, ?Minority communities and poor families don?t need black doctors. They need good doctors.?11 But what should be suspect is not the so-called underperformance of minority students as much as the underlying assumptions about the criteria that persistently rank them as substandard.

Currently, grade point average (GPA) and Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) scores are the primary criteria for medical school admission. People assume that strong GPAs and MCAT scores qualify a candidate to be a physician. The truth is that, historically, MCAT scores were not intended to be predictors of who would ultimately make the best doctors. The test was introduced in the 1950s at a time when admission to medical school was not competitive and attrition rates were high due to the presence of underqualified students. The MCAT was used to ensure that medical students were minimally qualified to study medicine.

However, with the rise in competition for medical school admission in the 1960s and 1970s, average MCAT scores rose above the level needed to ?guarantee reasonably successful completion of a course of medical studies.?11 What this means is that even though minority students may score lower on average than white students on the MCAT, they are not ?substandard? in terms of this isolated criterion. The fact is that all physicians must pass the U.S. Medical Licensure Examination (USMLE) to practice medicine. In this context, affirmative action does not create substandard doctors. Rather, it provides minorities with the opportunity to be trained and prepared to be physicians.

Passage of the USMLE is what qualifies them to practice medicine.
Some argue that even if all doctors are at least minimally qualified, why not have the most qualified, meaning those with the highest scores. The fact is that affirmative action students do not underperform relative to non-affirmative action students, either in medical school or in practice. In a 1997 study conducted at the University of California, Davis, School of Medicine, Robert Davidson and Ernest Lewis analyzed the performance of all affirmative action and special consideration admissions students over a period of 20 years. Of all students studied, 20 percent were special consideration admissions, meaning that they were students who had a GPA of less than 3.0 and MCAT scores of less than 10 on each of the 4 subsections of the test. URMs constituted 47.7 percent of special consideration admissions and only 4.0 percent of regular admissions.

In the final analysis, special consideration students did nearly as well as regular admissions students. Ninety-four percent of special consideration students graduated and 97 percent of regular admissions students graduated. Regular admission students were more likely to receive honors, but there was no difference in failure rates between the two groups. Additionally, there were no significant differences in the performance of the students in the two groups in their residency training performance, according to the evaluations of their residency program directors.

Davidson concluded, criteria other than undergraduate grade point average and Medical College Admission Test scores can be used in predicting success in medical school. An admissions process that allows for ethnicity and other special characteristics to be used heavily in admission decisions yields powerful effects on the diversity of the student population and shows no evidence of diluting the quality of the graduates.13 What Davidson showed is that undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores are not, in fact, bottom-line determinants of the quality of graduates produced.

All medical schools employ special admissions criteria related to state residency, alumni connections, postbaccalaureate affiliations, extracurricular interests, or future professional commitments, among others. Such criteria are less frequently challenged as adequate reasons for admitting medical students in their education, produces doctors that underserved patient populations trust, and more equitably reflects the make-up of the population at large; these are compelling reasons to admit applicants who may not be as competitive in terms of raw scores. In the absence of evidence showing that affirmative action special admissions produces doctors less qualified than those admitted by special considerations influenced by any criteria other than race, the assumption that affirmative action results in bad doctors is not well founded.?

 

[kreno]

bump.


i have an allopathic interview today, so no time to reply... tomorrow 🙂

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by kreno
bump.


i have an allopathic interview today, so no time to reply... tomorrow 🙂

Congrats, Leon! And ... good luck! 🙂

- Tae

 

[tokie]

kreno, i suspect you are an immature boy fresh out of college, presuming you are far superior than many other for who knows why.

until you get out and experience the work force, sober up to the realties of medicine and greater society in general, don't judge others.

 

[macdown]

I have one question directed at Kreno, since you seem to have the biggest mouth. Why the F*uck do you care if some one wants to go to D.O. school? Does it affect you in any way, shape or form? No.... So shut your pie hole. Your ignorance and immaturity show through the facade of intellegence you put forth. You may be able to hide your true colors from your college advisors and even some adcomms, but eventually your attitiude will be your downfall, I promise. Wise up and get a clue, there is alswys someone better than you. You are not a god or even a demi-god, in fact I'd wager to say you are a pimpled face shut -in whose only friend is a text book. Your distain for other not like you is quite simmilar to the hatred behind racisim and sexism . If you were truly entering medicine to care for your fellow man, your attitude would be much different, you would embrace the differences individuals embody. What are you going to do when a patient has a different opinion as to how they want their care handled? Are you going to berate and belittle them. I mean, YOU are the doctor, not THEM! How dare they question your authority, you got a 36(?) on the MCAT and went to an allopathic medical school. This patient should be bowing at your feet, who are they to speak to you as if you were equals.

Get a life.

P.S. PACtoDOC will be a much better doc than you. He already has at least 7 years of clinical work behind him. How many do you have??? None, but you're going to an allopathic school so you will be a better doc. PACtoDOC has seen how many patients, 10,000? more? How many have you seen? Zero, but you will be a better doctor because you are going to an allopathic school. Oviously Kreno will be better 'cuz he's going to an allopathic school...

 

[CG-RN-MD2B]

Originally posted by kreno
CG-RN-MD... you wanna back up the things you say, or add some justification, or just whine? Your response to the post I had which is BOLD in your response has FACTS listed... I don't see you responding to them. I wonder why.

I'm not responding to the facts, because they're just facts. Who cares... anyone can regurgitate information on this forum. What is hilarious to me is your correlation between MCAT scores and who you will let diagnose your kid. I actually laughed out loud by myself in the ER at work when I read that. You have SOOO much to learn about life and the real world. You're gonna find out that you can go around telling everyone how you think things are till you're blue in the face. The fact of the matter is, no one cares who you are or what you say. It's only gonna get worse unless you change your attitude. THOSE are the facts.

 

[CG-RN-MD2B]

Originally posted by macdown
I have one question directed at Kreno, since you seem to have the biggest mouth. Why the F*uck do you care if some one wants to go to D.O. school? Does it affect you in any way, shape or form? No.... So shut your pie hole. Your ignorance and immaturity show through the facade of intellegence you put forth. You may be able to hide your true colors from your college advisors and even some adcomms, but eventually your attitiude will be your downfall, I promise. Wise up and get a clue, there is alswys someone better than you. You are not a god or even a demi-god, in fact I'd wager to say you are a pimpled face shut -in whose only friend is a text book. Your distain for other not like you is quite simmilar to the hatred behind racisim and sexism . If you were truly entering medicine to care for your fellow man, your attitude would be much different, you would embrace the differences individuals embody. What are you going to do when a patient has a different opinion as to how they want their care handled? Are you going to berate and belittle them. I mean, YOU are the doctor, not THEM! How dare they question your authority, you got a 36(?) on the MCAT and went to an allopathic medical school. This patient should be bowing at your feet, who are they to speak to you as if you were equals.

Get a life.

P.S. PACtoDOC will be a much better doc than you. He already has at least 7 years of clinical work behind him. How many do you have??? None, but you're going to an allopathic school so you will be a better doc. PACtoDOC has seen how many patients, 10,000? more? How many have you seen? Zero, but you will be a better doctor because you are going to an allopathic school. Oviously Kreno will be better 'cuz he's going to an allopathic school...

I'm glad to see there are some people who understand how the real world works. And, I love your quote... Dumb and Dumber is the best movie of all time.

 

[DW]

another DO versus MD thread. fantastic

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
What is hilarious to me is your correlation between MCAT scores and who you will let diagnose your kid.

I'd love to be there to see him ask his kid's (or his) doctor about his/her MCAT score! He might as well ask to see the Dr's med school transcript & letters from his/her residency program director as well. That would certainly be more useful information. 🙄

 

[joshua_msu]

Originally posted by lattimer13


as a future MD it makes me sick that i will someday have you pricks as my colleagues. grow up, get lives, get off your ego trips, and stop being a$$wipes.

Couldnt have said it better myself

 

[LukeWhite]

Only tangentially relevant, but even though DO's represent 5% of the physician population in the US, they represent 10% of overall healthcare. Even taking into account the fact that more MD's specialize, I'd say this indicates that the whole "public bias" thing is way overplayed. Doctors aren't like grocery stores; people don't generally switch just because they happen to feel the whim. What bias exists is already built into the system, because those people with bias are already seeing MD's if they have a choice (or DO's, if they live in any of the innumerable enclaves in the US where DO's are preferred.)

Nobody took up the international health thing, so I'll take a swipe. Though DO's can't practice in a fair number of countries, it's rarely mentioned that MD's have the devil's time trying to practice there also. Try getting a steady health job in England with either degree. However, there are many, many countries that give DO's full practice rights. Those who do choose to work overseas generally do it for altruistic reasons, and countries in need of altruistic health care aren't in the habit of turning many US-trained physicians away.

 

[CG-RN-MD2B]

Originally posted by kreno
i don't need to justify myself... but, i feel the need. there is no need for any of you to PREJUDGE what you know nothing about. I'm far from your typical applicant. I've worked as an EMT for two years, and a paramedic for one summer. I have lived in Greece for 12 months, in which time I did a thesis project studying their nationalized healthcare system. AT that time I concurrently studied balkan history and several peace-resolution, war-history, and Greek history courses at both the University of Thessaloniki (Aristotle University) and at the American College of Thessaloniki. During this time I had extensive experience volunteering at an non-governmental organization that dealt with aiding illegal refugees which were coming from the middle east and surrounding areas.

I also worked for an Non-governmental Organization in Kosovo for three months dealing with the post-war mental trauma to surrounding youths. Then I worked in another NGO in Serbia, while I concurrently volunteered at the Public Health Institute there for 2 months. I have been a recitation instructor for calculus for 3.5 years, I am a double major - economics and physiology. blah blah blah, did the other stuff... i could have graduated in 3 years, but instead extended my studies and had these so-called "life experiences" which extended my undergraduate years to 5.

with my lower than average top-ten stats... these are the experiences which got me interviews at top schools... certainly not my scores (i'm a white male). therefore, i know, undrestand, and respect the importance of life-experiences.

Oh my God... "Kosovo, Greece, post-war mental trauma, joined green peace and studied ******ed amphibians in Ruwanda..."

I'm so glad I'm normal.

You were right. You didn't have to justify yourself. Your previous posts have already disqualified you from earning the interest (much less respect) of any of our readers. Once again, no matter what you say you know or have done... no one cares because of the ignorant posts you've made in the past. If I were you I'd get a new email account and resign under a different screen name and try to resurface as a new member.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally posted by CG-RN-MD2B
Oh my God... "Kosovo, Greece, post-war mental trauma, joined green peace and studied ******ed amphibians in Ruwanda..."

I'm so glad I'm normal.

You were right. You didn't have to justify yourself. Your previous posts have already disqualified you from earning the interest (much less respect) of any of our readers. Once again, no matter what you say you know or have done... no one cares because of the ignorant posts you've made in the past. If I were you I'd get a new email account and resign under a different screen name and try to resurface as a new member.

This coming from someone who has the name MD2B yet described herself/himself/itself as a "future DO primary care provider".... Kreno has some good points...DO schools have lower MCAT, GPA standards, and USMLE Pass Rates. So? Maybe his conclusions are wrong. Nothing wrong with that, and no reason to crucify him. He has alot of interest and respect from sane readers who appreciate those that attempt to build an argument based on facts; Probably even from those that disagree with his conclusions. You're merely a tool who probably had to re-surface yourself after looking like an idiot on these boards....

 

[hossofadoc]

This is an argument that is just plain stupid. We will all be doctors (some better then others)...in the end will be able to write the same scripts, treat the same dz, and preform the same surgeries...no matter what your degree says on it.
Yes, there are some bad DOs (I know it's hard to believe) and yes there are some bad MDs (I know that's also hard to believe)....we are all forgetting the key issues, we are trained to provide healthcare to people.
So, instead of fighting over whose penis is bigger, let's remember one thing....it dosen't matter....it's how you use that counts.

 

[macdown]

Kreno- No one is prejudging you. They are post-judging you for your blatantly ignorant and immature posts. And, no, please don't justify yourself, it makes you sound more like a cocky prick. I worked in Kosovo blah, blah, blah. Self-righteous a$$.

 

[Optimistic]

Originally posted by kreno
okay, I'M SORRY BUT IF YOU GOT A 24 ON THE MCAT YOU'RE *NOT* GONNA BE THE ONE DIAGNOSING *MY* KID. period.


kreno

Make sure you ask physician his/her Mcat scores forwarded to you before you take your kid to the office and also make sure you do that even if the physician is MD because I know people who are accepted to MD school with 24 on MCAT.🙄 🙄

 

[Tweetie_bird]

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
....

Was that a DO site for manipulation of the pubocockus? I've always wondered how they treated that bone...

LOL....I don't know if anybody else remembers this incident, but I was laughing so hard when I read it. I almost snorted....LOL

Just wanted to add my outlook into this:
I personally think all of this boils down to an ego problem. It seems to me that *some* MD applicants think that their higher MCAT scores were indicative of their "dedication and hard work" thus implying that pre-DO people were lazy and not motivated enough to do the hard work and get the above 24 averages that DO schools seem to have. I just wanted to call BS on that because as an MD applicant, I have had to work VERY hard for my 27....perhaps harder than somebody who was inherently smarter/faster reader than me and got a 35. To say that the MD programs are superior simply because their averages are higher, is like looking into a well and trying to guage it's depth. We don't know the situations surrounding each DO applicant. Somebody mentioned that DO's tend to be more "well rounded" applicants because they have families, sometimes a career change, and sometimes even kids! I think that pulling off college with a family is a huge feat, don't you? Try going to college when you know that you have to come home to a husband and kids....then balance all the grocery shopping, paying the bills, putting the kids to bed (if you were fortunate to come home early enough from the library). Now, try to do all that while studying for the MCAT and doing applications. If it is true that a lot of the DO applicants have "lives" outside of school, it is also true that they require superior organizational skills to pull it off. How many of the MD applicants do you know of that do all that? Okay, I am one of them, but I hardly have the peer support I need because most of the MD applicants I am competing with are young twenty-ish people without families to come home to and take care of. Tomorrow, if my husband and I don't work, we don't eat! If I don't get into medical school, I have to find a 9-5 job like I had been doing for so long and hated. It is tough being an MD applicant out there and competing with the so called "higher standards." I can see why people like going the DO route--aside from it's philosophy, DO schools indeed do seem to care about external factors affecting the applicants GPA/MCAT. Since most of their applicants are of a higher age, they KNOW that school is *not* the only priority in their life, but they indeed do have to balance it with the other priorities in their lives.

However, the "ego problem" goes both ways. Just as some of the MD applicants are trying to claim that higher GPA and scores = better doctor, the DO's are claiming that they are more "well rounded, etc etc. I buy both the arguements, and realize that each is not exclusive of each other. Is it not possible to have MD applicants that are intelligent, have superior clinical skills, and also are well rounded? I know a few people in this category IRL. Similarly, is it not possible to have DO's that are well rounded, have superior clinical skills and (God forbid) INTELLIGENT??? I have two friends both in DO programs--one got into MD schools (top notch, let me tell ya) with her MCAT's in mid-30's. She realized that her calling was DO, not MD and decided to turn down the multiple offers she had to re-apply again next year into DO programs. Another friend who has an even higher MCAT score than her, done neuro. research, and almost a 4.0 GPA also felt very turned off with the MD philosophy and decided to go the DO route. BOTH, were MCAT Profs so that dispels some myths about DO's not having the superior intelligence that MD's do. There are some very intelligent DO's out there who can hold their own in any MD surgery residency, just as there are MD's that may not be able to carry the burden of the "MD" behind their name.

Note: The above examples are only subjective, and while I realize that two examples don't make a trend, I am simply using them to make my point about NOT generalizing about either program.

Overall, what we need to realize is that providing healthcare is a TEAM effort. We have to collectively decide what is best for our patients--if one tool does'nt work, try another. Try a third. Do whatever it takes to cure/give comfort to the patient because that is the only thing that matters to him/her when they walk into your office. The last few times that you were ill and had to visit the ER, did you ever stop to think if you're being treated by "student MDs?" Did that scare you? You had faith that whatever medical education they have received, is good enough to be able to cure your problem. Similarly, when is the last time that you went into a doc's office and tried to see if s/he had an "MD" or "DO" behind his name? When you are going to be in surgery with your counterparts next to you dressed in gowns and masks, you are not going to see the "MD" or "DO" behind their name. You are going to know that DOCTOR XYZ is standing next to you with his/her set of tools ready to give his/her best and heal this patient just as well as you will. I RE-EMPHASIZE: HEALTHCARE IS A TEAM EFFORT. We have to learn to live and act accordingly, because learning to work with our own set of tools and others is what will make us good doctors and see the results we hope to see in our patients.

Tweetie

 

[CG-RN-MD2B]

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
This coming from someone who has the name MD2B yet described herself/himself/itself as a "future DO primary care provider".... Kreno has some good points...DO schools have lower MCAT, GPA standards, and USMLE Pass Rates. So? Maybe his conclusions are wrong. Nothing wrong with that, and no reason to crucify him. He has alot of interest and respect from sane readers who appreciate those that attempt to build an argument based on facts; Probably even from those that disagree with his conclusions. You're merely a tool who probably had to re-surface yourself after looking like an idiot on these boards....

We already discussed the insignificance of a screen name dude. And, wow, where did you come up with the creativity of claiming I had to re-surface? Oh, yeah, from my post about kreno.

Fact is, yes, they have lower standards as far as GPA and MCAT scores are concerned. But who gives a f*ck about those scores??? Yes, I know, you think I'm one of those borderline candidates. WRONG. I have numbers that would take me anywhere. That's not the point. The point is, anyone can get a 4.0 in college. It's all about work ethic. MCAT probably is a little more of an indicator of ability to think (but the average intelligence individual can take prep courses and score decently on it).

Posts about scores determining career abilities and outcomes is just plain dumb. "Well, these med schools require an average of 3.7 with a blah blah blah f*cking blah" Who gives a ****. It really tells me and everyone else the level of intelligence we're dealing with in blitz and kreno.

Guess what??? The minimum GPA you must have to apply to Nurse practitioner school is 0.5 higher than the minimum GPA at many medical schools. Does that mean the NPs are smarter or better than the physicians??? Of course not.

And, I may or may not become a primary care DO, or a cardiothoraic surgeon MD. I'm going to be a physician, period.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Kreno,
Your stats and history are very respectable. Just lighten up though and be willing to open your mind up to working with DO's. Undoubtedly you will eventually have a DO attending and DO colleagues in residency. Not everyone has had a a path paved with opportunity though, so don't knock us that take the road given to us. I spent 4 years of my life after inner-city high school trying to survive with the Marines. Try to attend college at night off base while spending 80 hours a week as the medic for your Marine platoon. Then get deployed to war and have to drop an entire semester of courses. Military medics make some of the absolute best physicians of all because they are quick thinkers, and have tons of real life medical experience. But do you know what, there are 6 times as many DO's in the military percentage wise than the civilian sector. This is often because the military recruits physicians from within its own ranks, and sometimes these guys and gals don't have the luxury of the typical undergrad life paved in gold. The most recent surgeon general of the Army is the president of my school here at the University of North Texas Health Science Center, Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine. He is one of the world's leading experts in bioterrorism and speaks at all the major medical conferences, AMA and AOA sponsored. Yes, he is a DO, and yes, he worked his way up the hard way in the service. So if for no reason other than this, give DO's the benefit of the doubt and don't prejudge. Good luck Kreno; you will undoubtedly mature in time 🙂