Quit whining

[Corker]

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WTF??? are you crazy. They work 9 months out of the year, work NO weekends, take NO call! Lawsuits? What are you talking about. YOu are 100 times more likely to be sued in medicine than in teaching.

I didn't mean to imply that teaching has the EXACT same challenges as medicine...I was only saying that there is a general loss of respect for the profession and that teaching suffers from some similar problems.

In fact, it is attitudes like yours that perpetuate the loss of respect for teachers. You obviously have very little understanding of the responsibilities of most teachers. And, as Sartre79 states, many teachers work additional duties (or second and third jobs) to make up for their severe lack of income (or just because they really want to help the kids.)

 

[Doublecortin]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

EDIT: I realize at this point that I chose a poor thread title. Something more along the lines of "choose your attitude" was what I was going for.

amen, brother, amen! 👍

 

[45408]

In fact, it is attitudes like yours that perpetuate the loss of respect for teachers. You obviously have very little understanding of the responsibilities of most teachers. And, as Sartre79 states, many teachers work additional duties (or second and third jobs) to make up for their severe lack of income (or just because they really want to help the kids.)

Entry level for some teaching jobs can be low, and all of my high school teachers were paid very poorly because it was a small Christian K-12 school. I later found out that their salary was no more than $25,000 a year, and several of the teachers were also married to other teachers, so that was their only income. That's dedication.

However, maybe your public school system is different, but in my city (and the outlying 'burbs), the teachers are paid fairly well. They won't get rich, but it's a competitive salary for a 4-year degree, and the benefits are quite good, thanks to the heavily muscled teacher's union. And yes, I have heard this from the teachers. I worked with one for a while.

 

[Corker]

Entry level for some teaching jobs can be low, and all of my high school teachers were paid very poorly because it was a small Christian K-12 school. I later found out that their salary was no more than $25,000 a year, and several of the teachers were also married to other teachers, so that was their only income. That's dedication.

However, maybe your public school system is different, but in my city (and the outlying 'burbs), the teachers are paid fairly well. They won't get rich, but it's a competitive salary for a 4-year degree, and the benefits are quite good, thanks to the heavily muscled teacher's union. And yes, I have heard this from the teachers. I worked with one for a while.

It's great to hear that there are teachers being paid well in some areas. Many teachers have Master's degrees, as well. And God bless the teacher's unions for their negotiations! Pay definitely varies from one area to another (California is not so bad...places like Utah are atrocious.)

Again, there are benefits and drawbacks to every profession. My main point was that there are other professions than medicine that were once held in high regard and are now suffering from a loss of respect due to societal issues.

 

[H_Caulfield]

Eh...I'm not as sympathetic with regard to teachers and their whining. The new ones in my home district start now at 46k, and please keep in mind that it's for 9 months. Most of them get other jobs during the summer, bringing their salary to about 60-65k.

They're also assured a 7:30-4 schedule, with very little variation and TONS of job security after their first couple of years.

 

[Green Chimneys]

God bless the...unions

Teachers deserve our utmost respect for the invaluable job that they do, but did I seriously just read this?!

 

[Jwax]

Getting paid regularly has a way of assuaging the pain.

😆 Agreed.

 

[mdterps83]

Do you think this is true? I think most people still hold teachers in high regard.

Name a single field that doesn't think that they are underpaid.

Thankfully, people don't get to set their own pay rates otherwise, they'd all be too high.

 

[Corker]

Teachers deserve our utmost respect for the invaluable job that they do, but did I seriously just read this?!

Hey Green Chimney...it's so funny that you responded...I wondered if anyone would comment.

What's funny is that my mom was a teacher for 40 years and WOULD NOT and NEVER DID join the union because she resented how they spent so much on political issues that were contrary to her own views (obviously, she is a staunch Republican). I do think that in some professions there is a need for representation, though, and the teachers' union offers many protections for teachers. Honestly, I'm not very knowledgable about unions. I'd love to hear some other views, but they might move us to the sociopolitical forum!😉

 

[angry energy]

im nto gong to bother reading every post up here, just got the gist.

wanna know the truth? 80 hrs limit is BS. if u report ur own program, they go on probation. and what's in it for you? you endanger ur program of being dissolved and then what? its an idiotic system. and if ur going to be a specialized surgeon, 80hrs a week isnt enough

i'm an M3 on surgery. my hrs are 4am to 7pm mon-fri. weekends are 4am to noon. every fourth day i'm on call 4am to noon the next day with the remainder of the day off. we're talkin well >90hrs a week minimum. name another profession that routinely works those hrs.

not engineering, not law, not business, tho some business majors and law executives do, and those are the guys getting paid like us once we're in the workfield. face it, the average joe doesnt work half as hard as we do (and less than half of >90hrs a week is 40, which is normal)

they complain about their JOB whereas we complain about HOW MUCH we work, NOT what we do.

its okay, we're harder working than other people, definetely mroe intelligent than the average joe, and far more driven. no one can even deny that as doctors, we're closer to the top 10 percentile in almost every category. so should we be complaining? its debatable. but its never right to compare our field to other regulars complaining about bad bosses and low pay, because our world is far different from what they can even begin to conceive.

 

[notdeadyet]

They're also assured a 7:30-4 schedule,

How do you reckon? That may be how many hours teachers are is in the classroom, but it's not how many hours they work. How do you think lesson plans are made, assignments are graded, parent-teacher conferences happen, etc.

Tell a surgeon they have a sweet lifestyle since they're only in the OR 30 hours a week. Think it through, folks.

 

[notdeadyet]

but its never right to compare our field to other regulars complaining about bad bosses and low pay, because our world is far different from what they can even begin to conceive.

And theirs is far different from what you can even begin to conceive, bub. Keep that in mind. As ignorant as "regulars" may be about medicine, I've never seen so much ignorance about the lifestyle of folks working in other professions as bantered around on SDN. You'd think teaching was a part-time job, the law was all spent in a courtroom and investment banking was this E-ticket to a million dollar job as soon as the ink dries on your MBA.

The grass is always greener. Such is life...

 

[smq123]

i'm an M3 on surgery. my hrs are 4am to 7pm mon-fri. weekends are 4am to noon. every fourth day i'm on call 4am to noon the next day with the remainder of the day off. we're talkin well >90hrs a week minimum. name another profession that routinely works those hrs.

not engineering, not law, not business, tho some business majors and law executives do, and those are the guys getting paid like us once we're in the workfield. face it, the average joe doesnt work half as hard as we do (and less than half of >90hrs a week is 40, which is normal)

they complain about their JOB whereas we complain about HOW MUCH we work, NOT what we do.

its okay, we're harder working than other people, definetely mroe intelligent than the average joe, and far more driven. no one can even deny that as doctors, we're closer to the top 10 percentile in almost every category. so should we be complaining? its debatable. but its never right to compare our field to other regulars complaining about bad bosses and low pay, because our world is far different from what they can even begin to conceive.

And theirs is far different from what you can even begin to conceive, bub. Keep that in mind. As ignorant as "regulars" may be about medicine, I've never seen so much ignorance about the lifestyle of folks working in other professions as bantered around on SDN. You'd think teaching was a part-time job, the law was all spent in a courtroom and investment banking was this E-ticket to a million dollar job as soon as the ink dries on your MBA.

The grass is always greener. Such is life...

notdeadyet - did you read angry energy's post that carefully?

He never said that teaching was a part time job, or that law was glamorous (just like in LA Law!), or that investment banking guaranteed a ton of money.

The hours that he described? We all work those hours. Not just the superstars who want to get ahead, or who want to make more money. Those are baseline hours for a general surgery resident. Working more won't get them more money or more prestige.

And how many lawyers do you know work from 4 AM to 7:30 PM, come home and study some more (before you pass out) and then get up the next day at 3:30 to do it again? With q4 call thrown in for giggles? How many teachers do that? How many investment bankers do that?

I mean, how many investment bankers suddenly realize, in the middle of writing a sentence, that they have no clear memory of getting dressed and walking into work? That they're not even sure if they brushed their teeth? (But they're damn sure that they didn't eat breakfast - because there's never any time for it at 4 AM.) I can't tell you how many times that happened to me on surgery. I mean, med students joke about it (or else we'd probably cry), but it's very scary to suddenly look around you and realize that you don't remember waking up that morning - and yet, somehow, you're dressed, with a stethoscope around your neck, writing a SOAP note.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

And theirs is far different from what you can even begin to conceive, bub. Keep that in mind. As ignorant as "regulars" may be about medicine, I've never seen so much ignorance about the lifestyle of folks working in other professions as bantered around on SDN. You'd think teaching was a part-time job, the law was all spent in a courtroom and investment banking was this E-ticket to a million dollar job as soon as the ink dries on your MBA.

The grass is always greener. Such is life...

I agree with this 100%. Not to say medical is not hard, but SDNers do seem to think everything else is fairly easy. Most people who earn decent money work hard. That's just how it goes.

 

[notdeadyet]

notdeadyet - did you read angry energy's post that carefully?

I did. The comments about teaching, law, etc. weren't directed to angry energy's post alone, but what I keep hearing on SDN.

And I just read yours carefully, too. I'm not sure why folks are tossing out their hours and call schedules from med school or residency and portraying that as the Career of the Doctor. It's training. No picnic, but also not representative of the hours or experiences that you'll be keeping the rest of your life either. If you have the same lifestyle and hours as an attending that you did as an intern, it's because you asked for it.

I'm not saying it's an easy road or even and easy life once you're finished with residency. But I cringe a bit when I hear the "poor we the doctors" and how those "regular folks" just can't conceive of how hard we work. This smacks of the elitism, patients pick up on it and it ends up costing all of us. Medicine is headed down the same path that law headed down in the early 80's and it frightens me. Some of it is outside of our control, but some isn't.

I also find that the majority of those who feel that medicine is this unique entity that combines long hours, high stress, bad working conditions and inane bureaucracy are those who have not lived another career. Medicine just isn't unique in this. I'm sorry.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

It's training. No picnic, but also not representative of the hours or experiences that you'll be keeping the rest of your life either. If you have the same lifestyle and hours as an attending that you did as an intern, it's because you asked for it.

With regard to patient care, in multiple surgical and non-surgical specialties, you have no control of your hours (neurosurgery comes to mind). This comment smacks of someone who has little to no clue what happens in a hospital.

I'm not saying it's an easy road or even and easy life once you're finished with residency. But I cringe a bit when I hear the "poor we the doctors" and how those "regular folks" just can't conceive of how hard we work. This smacks of the elitism, patients pick up on it and it ends up costing all of us. Medicine is headed down the same path that law headed down in the early 80's and it frightens me. Some of it is outside of our control, but some isn't.

I also find that the majority of those who feel that medicine is this unique entity that combines long hours, high stress, bad working conditions and inane bureaucracy are those who have not lived another career. Medicine just isn't unique in this. I'm sorry.

Yeah, I agree that our field isn't the only one with terrible working conditions, but its also unique in the sense that we almost have no control over what we are reimbursed either. Last time I checked, Medicare wasn't dictating rates on how much lawyers and CEOs were being reimbursed. Aside from maybe an associate in a law firm, I don't see too many other people getting called away from their personal lives to go to work at weird and unexpected hours.

My girlfriend teaches at a community college, works her ass off outside of class, and makes jack ****; but at least she doesn't have to take overnight call.

 

[notdeadyet]

With regard to patient care, in multiple surgical and non-surgical specialties, you have no control of your hours (neurosurgery comes to mind). This comment smacks of someone who has little to no clue what happens in a hospital.

My apologies if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to imply that you pick your hours as a physician (or frankly, at most professional jobs). You can't leave in the middle of a surgery because you're checking your watch. Of course, you can't leave the office at a professional job just because of a late hour if you have a big enough deadline. My only point was that the hours during residency are worse than those after.

So if I'm wrong on this, help me out with my disconnect here:

According to most folks on SDN, the residency 80 hour work week mandate is sort of nudge-nudge/wink-wink and most residents find themselves working beyond that.

According to JAMA and other surveys I've seen, the average workweek for a general surgeon is 60 hours.

I'll defer to you, as I sure am not an attending. But if the average attending workload is 25% less than the average residency workload, it seems that if your hours actually go up, you have an unusual job. Either a great opportunity that requires you to work insane hours the rest of your career (in which case it's by choice) or you got snookered into a pretty lousy contract.

Again, if I'm missing/misinterpreting something here, please let me know. I haven't heard of many attendings working more weekly hours than they did in residnecy, but apparently they're out there.

Aside from maybe an associate in a law firm, I don't see too many other people getting called away from their personal lives to go to work at weird and unexpected hours.

I can think of loads of jobs like that, but none in a high paying professional class, that's for sure. Agreement on the lack of control over what you get paid. It's a leap of faith.

 

[notdeadyet]

My girlfriend teaches at a community college, works her ass off outside of class, and makes jack ****; but at least she doesn't have to take overnight call.

I believe it. It's a trade off. My wife teaches at a community college as well. I'll probably earn about the same as a first year resident.

 

[angry energy]

My apologies if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to imply that you pick your hours as a physician (or frankly, at most professional jobs). You can't leave in the middle of a surgery because you're checking your watch. Of course, you can't leave the office at a professional job just because of a late hour if you have a big enough deadline. My only point was that the hours during residency are worse than those after.

So if I'm wrong on this, help me out with my disconnect here:

According to most folks on SDN, the residency 80 hour work week mandate is sort of nudge-nudge/wink-wink and most residents find themselves working beyond that.

According to JAMA and other surveys I've seen, the average workweek for a general surgeon is 60 hours.

I'll defer to you, as I sure am not an attending. But if the average attending workload is 25% less than the average residency workload, it seems that if your hours actually go up, you have an unusual job. Either a great opportunity that requires you to work insane hours the rest of your career (in which case it's by choice) or you got snookered into a pretty lousy contract.

Again, if I'm missing/misinterpreting something here, please let me know. I haven't heard of many attendings working more weekly hours than they did in residnecy, but apparently they're out there.

I can think of loads of jobs like that, but none in a high paying professional class, that's for sure. Agreement on the lack of control over what you get paid. It's a leap of faith.

sweetie, take it from someone who's been around the block (business and medicine). the hourly statistics that JAMA received their data from were either officially submitted, or the data given was the officially submitted numbers. No program will ever willingly volunteer infractions, because this places them in jeapordy of probation, helping neither the program, attendings, nor residents, who will be in danger of forcing to transfer. that's why its commonly broken, but covered up. you'll learn this once you come into the hospital.

80hrs is tame. National averages for law and business execs/ibankers still fall below the 80hrs, but they dont have a mandated maximum, whereas medicine does, and still it competes as one of the busiest practices. the sad fact of the matter is, we work harder than a lot of people. At best, some people in law and business work AS HARD AS we do, but by broad average, and even the top cases in any subset, doctors put in more hours.

my last day off on surgery was two weeks ago. that ought to tell you something about the mandated 24hrs a week off.

 

[EMH]

Aside from maybe an associate in a law firm, I don't see too many other people getting called away from their personal lives to go to work at weird and unexpected hours.

I could come up with a few: Farmers (there's a really rough life), police, lineman for an electric company, plumber, anyone who owns their own business, some people I know in IT take call, landlords.

I should be studying.

 

[roja]

Whining is useless. Now, if you want to adress any of the myriad of problems adressing practicing medicine, training physicians, etc, please, pipe up. And do something.

I agree with the stop whining. Completely. Because it is unproductive. However, if you want to complain about things and try and do something, I am all for that.


There are a number of *core* reasons why many of the issues raised here are valid, and many of the comparisons completely ridiculous (not because other fields don't work hard but because it is IMPOSSIBLE to compare them.)

Average medical school debt ranges in 200K range (that without even adding in undergrad). Add to that the deferrment that must happen while one is in residency and you are talking about a HUGE amount of debt. Do not forget the 10 years minimum that you spend training and preparing.

The rate of being sued as an MD is huge. You can lose your liscense, your home, etc. The rate of divorce is phenomenal. The sacrifice one makes to be a doctor is large.

Part of the frustration stems from the fact that as a doctor, you are holding people's health in your hands. When someone dies, regardless of if you did everything right, you still feel horrible. You make decisions about peoples lives. No other field does this and the stress is high.

That is why many practicing physicians will tell you that medicine is a calling. If you want prestige and to get rich, it is not the field to go into. It is hard work. There is a ton of BS that one must put up with. It is not a field to go into lightly. However, it is, IMO, one of the most amazing things one can do.


And occasional venting is okay. Just recognize it for what it is.

 

[notdeadyet]

sweetie, take it from someone who's been around the block (business and medicine).

Being a new poster, I don't know your background, but I'm a 35yo straight married dude. Sorry... And I'd be curious what constitutes being around the block in your eyes, but it's not important....

that's why its commonly broken, but covered up. you'll learn this once you come into the hospital.

As to the JAMA data, it's not resident hours, it's attending hours. And they didn't poll hospitals, they polled physicians. So I don't think there's any conspiracy to drive the hours up or down.

Curious, aren't you a medical student? I'm getting that vibe, but your been-around-the-block-in-business/here-at-the-hospital talk implies older physician.

80hrs is tame. National averages for law and business execs/ibankers still fall below the 80hrs,

Again, not sure why we're talking resident hours. Residency is temporary. Are there any specialty hours whose average workweek is 80 hours? I haven't seen any data supporting that. If there are, boy, that's a specialty I'd avoid.

Again, I'll drop off the thread. Sorry if folks are getting heated. Being a physician is a tough job with lots of downsides. I just don't think it's the only tough job out there with lots of downsides. Talk to more non-trads coming from other careers. It's true.

 

[notdeadyet]

Whining is useless. Now, if you want to adress any of the myriad of problems adressing practicing medicine, training physicians, etc, please, pipe up. And do something.

I agree with the stop whining. Completely. Because it is unproductive. However, if you want to complain about things and try and do something, I am all for that.

Amen to that. When you're in a field in the upper 2% of salary, you have to approach change delicately, because publlic support can turn against you in a heartbeat. And as Darkside Allstar pointed out, it ain't physicians setting their rates. You do not want to turn the public against us.

There's a thin line between an industry of giving healers trying to implement change to better enable them to help the community and rich folks whining that they have to work hard for their money and no one else does. Delicate...

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I could come up with a few: Farmers (there's a really rough life), police, lineman for an electric company, plumber, anyone who owns their own business, some people I know in IT take call, landlords.

I should be studying.

Ok, aside from maybe a lineman for an electric company and possibly a landlord--- the people who work in those professions do not have to take call and even those that choose to get paid handsomely for it (a plumber, for example). As a physician who has their "own patients" you will not get reimbursed for your extra time taking calls from your answering service at 3AM and even if you go in to admit someone, you can bet your sweet ass that your reimbursement won't be equivalent to what you bill for.

 

[45408]

Ok, aside from maybe a lineman for an electric company and possibly a landlord--- the people who work in those professions do not have to take call and even those that choose to get paid handsomely for it

Don't forget a farmer. Those cows aren't good about taking their pills on their own.

 

[EMH]

Don't forget a farmer. Those cows aren't good about taking their pills on their own.

Bump for the farmers, many small farmers work their tail off at stupid hours and can wind up with a net loss at the end of the year if things that are completely out of their control don't go well.

 

[notdeadyet]

Don't forget a farmer. Those cows aren't good about taking their pills on their own.

And with five stomachs, they have constant GI complaints...

 

[45408]

Bump for the farmers, many small farmers work their tail off at stupid hours and can wind up with a net loss at the end of the year if things that are completely out of their control don't go well.

A farmer/landowner is one person I would not get into an argument about who works harder or longer. You definitely need a passion for that kind of work to do it your whole life.

 

[Corker]

sweetie...

Honestly, notdeadyet, I thought you handled this comment very tactfully. I hate being called "sweetie" in this type of context. It's so condescending.

Also...I believe farmers work just as hard as doctors (if not harder) without the respect or salary...+1 for farmers!

 

[notdeadyet]

Honestly, notdeadyet, I thought you handled this comment very tactfully. I hate being called "sweetie" in this type of context. It's so condescending.

The guys been on SDN about two days. He could be a 17 year old typing into the ether for all I know. How offended can I be?

Also...I believe farmers work just as hard as doctors (if not harder) without the respect or salary...+1 for farmers!

There are lots of jobs out there that people work as hard as many practicing physicians. Maybe just not jobs that some physicians would view as peers, if you know what I mean.

 

[Farmer Jane]

My dad was a farmer. We figured he worked roughly 100 hours per week, sometimes less in the winter. He loved it, though. But yeah--farmers are the classic salt-of-the-earth hard workers. They also make great patients since they're tough as nails, very practical, and never whine about ambulating after surgery. Rather, you have to encourage them to get some rest.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Maybe just not jobs that some physicians would view as peers, if you know what I mean.

That's a point. I know I didn't really think about farmers because I've never known farmers. I have known people who have worked full time at 2 jobs just to make ends meet, so they're easily doing 80 hours a week regularly.

Honestly I just don't see the benefit in thinking medicine is harder than everything else. It makes you miserable, and it makes horribly dismissive of everyone else around you who isn't in medicine.

 

[bravotwozero]

Name a single field that doesn't think that they are underpaid.

Investment Banking? I don't see too many of them complaining as they drive around in their late model BMW's and Benzes.

 

[45408]

Investment Banking? I don't see too many of them complaining as they drive around in their late model BMW's and Benzes.

Of course James Simons doesn't think he's underpaid, but I bet plenty of his employees think they are. Just watch a movie like American Psycho to realize how no matter how rich you are, you can always compare yourself to someone else with more than you.

 

[angry energy]

Being a new poster, I don't know your background, but I'm a 35yo straight married dude. Sorry... And I'd be curious what constitutes being around the block in your eyes, but it's not important....

As to the JAMA data, it's not resident hours, it's attending hours. And they didn't poll hospitals, they polled physicians. So I don't think there's any conspiracy to drive the hours up or down.

Curious, aren't you a medical student? I'm getting that vibe, but your been-around-the-block-in-business/here-at-the-hospital talk implies older physician.

Again, not sure why we're talking resident hours. Residency is temporary. Are there any specialty hours whose average workweek is 80 hours? I haven't seen any data supporting that. If there are, boy, that's a specialty I'd avoid.

Again, I'll drop off the thread. Sorry if folks are getting heated. Being a physician is a tough job with lots of downsides. I just don't think it's the only tough job out there with lots of downsides. Talk to more non-trads coming from other careers. It's true.

i'm 34, worked in business for a while, now in med school. ive worked in hospitals as a scrub tech for a few years too. i know how much people work. the problem is that those surveys are very selective; you don't get a 100% response rate, and those that work significantly more don't waste their time filling out such surveys.

as an example - salary.com, payscale, and other surveys of physician salaries state that orthopedic surgeons make between 250-350, and neurosurgeons from 300-400. this is after being in practice ten years. i personally know of residents who received job opportunities starting at 500,000. two of them are making just under 600, starting. anesthesiology - 220 maybe according to stats? my colleague two years ago when i worked as a scrub tech was making 390 after two years in practice. last i talked to him, he's pulling half a mil.
for a while i worked with an ortho-spine guy. the most generous stats u can find out there will put him at about 400-450. actuality - 735. the response to these surveys varies, and that's why you can't look at those hours, just like salary.

every surgeon i worked with while working there was easily putting in 75-80 hrs. if u really think medicine's hours are controllable, then steer clear of anything intensive, including cardio, interventional rads, any surgery except ophtho. even IM you may find yourself shocked. because fact of the matter is, even though your "call" may be from home, you still have to come in at 3am when the **** hits the fan, whether IM, Peds, Surg, etc.

my best guess is that you havent really been in a hospital environment long enough to see what really happens here. you don't know the punitive nature of attendings, the old-school good ol' boy attitude that persists in many surgical subspecialties, the malignancy and abuse that happens on a daily basis. we don't complain of these thinsg because it becomes ingrained as a part of what we do and how we deal with things. i personally believe that malignancy keeps us all on our toes, constantly alert, and minimizes mistakes, even though its an unfavorable atmosphere. and no, this isnt just a couple institutions. it exists in many hospitals in PA, NJ, DE, NY (that i've worked at). only one community hospital had a friendly atmosphere, and i believe the work ethic suffered as a result as evidenced by their ICU mortality rates.

medicine is different. few professions can compare. so when we complain here, we vent because the general public will never understand. it seems like you don't either, but will very soon. good luck to you.

 

[MossPoh]

When I told my coworkers I was going to med school, many of them thought it was great I was leaving IT for the 'lucrative' world of medicine. Many at my company were averaging 50+ hrs/week on a regular basis, 70hrs during high rev time, making half to 2/3rd of what the average primary care doctor is making, and there was fear in the background about outsourcing (we were already hiring Indians in India to replace some of our jobs). So people complain about that.

Funny how everyone in the IT world is impressed, and then all the attendings I meet tell me to stick with IT.

I agree people whine too much, but for many of them it is the process of their previous beliefs and expectations decaying somewhat. I think it is natural for us to vent and complain. If you do it every day in the real world then you deserve a smack, but as humans it is somewhat natural. I find myself bitching about stuff I LIKE sometimes. I LOVE playing guitar, but I still whine about practicing it. How many times have you heard someone complain about someone, like their loved one, but then someone else joins in and then that person gets defensive. If one doesn't complain a little bit then I tend to believe they are apathetic to their choices. We want change or at least the status quo...not less for doing more. I turned down fantastic jobs to pursue medicine, and I am fully aware of what both sides are like. (I have been involved in the medical world my entire life. My dad had me reading radiographs and cts when I was elementary school....or trying) Hopefully for a few people, the dissonance means change, or at the very minimum a better disposition while on the job.

I do remember getting reamed hardcore by a higher up from a very powerful IT company and it certainly was not a good feeling. It kind of ruined my week actually. He had valid points though and my design would've cost about 1 million dollars more than anticipated. Did I bitch afterwards? Hell yea! 😉

 

[notdeadyet]

the problem is that those surveys are very selective; you don't get a 100% response rate, and those that work significantly more don't waste their time filling out such surveys.

I understand the tendency to toss out metrics when they don't agree with your personal viewpoint. Like I've said, I've worked at hospitals for several years as well.

And I'm glad that all of your surgeon buddies are making a half million or more, some fresh out of the gate. That could very well be why they're also pulling in well over the average amount of hours.

medicine is different. few professions can compare.

No one's debating that. Medicine is very different from any other profession. As is law enforcement, farming, etc. Each has it's unique challenges and dividends.

 

[notdeadyet]

so when we complain here, we vent because the general public will never understand. it seems like you don't either, but will very soon. good luck to you.

I just read the posts you've made since joining a couple of days ago and your rage at the "incompentent lazy fools" you're surrounded by (ED attendings, medicine folks) and how you're better even as an MS III than they are after residency.

Sounds like you have a healthy ego. You should be able to respect that folks disagree with your viewpoint not because they don't like you or because they don't understand you or because they haven't learned yet. We're both old guys with some clinical experience and seasoning under our belt who came to medicine late. But some of us are plain cut of different cloth and though we get it, we just don't share your rage.

Anyway, sincerely, best of luck with the rest of your third year rotations. I hear fourth year can be a lot kinder.

 

[angry energy]

I just read the posts you've made since joining a couple of days ago and your rage at the "incompentent lazy fools" you're surrounded by (ED attendings, medicine folks) and how you're better even as an MS III than they are after residency.

Sounds like you have a healthy ego. You should be able to respect that folks disagree with your viewpoint not because they don't like you or because they don't understand you or because they haven't learned yet. We're both old guys with some clinical experience and seasoning under our belt who came to medicine late. But some of us are plain cut of different cloth and though we get it, we just don't share your rage.

Anyway, sincerely, best of luck with the rest of your third year rotations. I hear fourth year can be a lot kinder.

folks disagree because of 1)they dont like me
i'm very well-liked. i never awake my senior residents because the nurse cant get the central line in. i drop ng tubes without hesitation. i tape ascitic bellies without calling them to watch over me. i do things to help others out immensely.
2) don't understand
everyone has a function in a hospital. the ED is supposed to filter the sick from the not-sick. attendings who admit everyone are not doing their job. ull soon see how frustrating this is when ur on call.
the IV nurse team is supposed to take care of access issues. incompetence on their part? considering theyve put in 100s and ive put in less than a 100, yet have never failed to eventually get access means either they are incompetent, or not trying hard enough, or lazy.
as said previously, idiots who see a 21yo with RLQ at mcburney's point and dont consult surgery immediately for what is most likely appendicitis is incompetent. but those who do get the stat consult for a PORT check just adds to it.
3) they haven't learned yet.
every doctor should know how to place ng-tubes, ivies, central lines (except maybe family med). ED should certainly know how to.

the hospital has a lot more politics to it in addition to medicine. its something they dont teach you about in medical school and its the kind of thing you sort of observe and jump in while hoping not to knock too many people over. then again, i'm an extremely independent med student, and the residents here feel comfortable giving me the dog or trauma pager and taking care of the random crap that happens throughout the night. a page from me means its something i have no friggin clue what to do (ie GSW to head).

yes, fourth year is kinder because people have matched and are...guess what? lazy. its okay, intern year is a whole nother set of punches to the crotch.

so now after all this self-aggrandization, i can tell you that i judge people based on their actions, and sadly enough, the politics of medicine screw actions severely to the point where many dont even do their jobs properly anymore.

dont take this as disrespect to you. im just saying that in terms of the medical field, you only know, id hope, medicine. and that's good. you are still largely inexperienced when it comes to the rest of the story, what goes on in the ED, OR, etc. its NOT all medicine. and thats why when it comes to work-hours, how much doctors actually work, what they actually do, etc. you'll realize that its an entirely different game here. the more intense the field, the more intense the game.

 

[anonydoc83]

the more intense the field, the more intense the game.

true that, but if you don't know your medicine, no amount of skills at the 'game' are gonna keep you in the game.

btw, motivation via rage pales next to fear of indirectly killing a pt due to incompetence. while the inpt team might be annoyed at the ED for admitting a non-sick pt (this usually happens at community hospital EDs staffed only by PAs and nurses after 9 pm on a Fri evening), it's much more upset to see a pt undergo septic shock b/c the same understaffing fostered an ED system unable to properly triage a bacteremic pt.

on another note, how many attendings/residents/interns/med students don't know how to immediately dx appendicitis? instead of feeling rage at the laziness and incompetence of my superiors, i'm instead constantly motivated by their technical competence and clarity of thought and compassion after a full day's (and sometimes night's) work. it's not below a doc to offer something like ice chips to a pt with fever. if nothing else, it sets the tone for the rest of the staff (read: nursing) to be responsive to a pt's spoken/unspoken non-critical needs in order to establish trust and minimize frivalous lawsuits down the line.

 

[SocialistMD]

Name a single field that doesn't think that they are underpaid.

Thankfully, people don't get to set their own pay rates otherwise, they'd all be too high.

Well...my wife is a teacher and I can tell you she is underpaid. She gets to work at 7:30 and doesn't typically come home until after 5:30 (a couple of days ago she was there until 8:30). Yeah, her day actually teaching isn't long by our standards, but she is on her feet all day running around chasing 10 and 11 year-olds. She then has faculty meetings and parent conferences after school (required: yes. covered by her salary: no; the district highlights in the contract that they are paid for the hours spent teaching, but then adds on all sorts of extracurricular things to do that aren't part of that time). She is the school's Spanish translator which means she gets to talk with all of the new students and their parents when they don't speak english in addition to translating the many documents the district creates and then types those translations (and gets a whole extra $500/year for that, despite having to do something with it every day, be it an interrruption of her regular teaching hours because a Spanish speaking parent calls the office and the secretary reflexively transfers the call to her classroom rather than thinking about the fact that she, a teacher, might be teaching at 11:00am). She has an afternoon study hall twice a week for her students. She also has to clean up the mess in her class each day so the next day it isn't a complete disaster area. She is also writing the computer education curriculum for the school. On top of all of that, she is taking night classes to get her master's so she can actually earn a decent salary for the amount of work she does.

She is definitely underpaid.

my last day off on surgery was two weeks ago. that ought to tell you something about the mandated 24hrs a week off.

1. Assuming you are a resident, then you know the mandated 24 hours off each week is averaged over four weeks.
2. Because you seem to not get that, I take it to mean you are a medical student. The 80-hour rule doesn't apply to you.

Wait a second, I see what's going on here...

folks disagree because of 1)they dont like me
i'm very well-liked. i never awake my senior residents because the nurse cant get the central line in.

Nurses don't put in central lines, champ.

i drop ng tubes without hesitation. i tape ascitic bellies without calling them to watch over me.

Ah, I see. Superman, are you? If you are actually planning this when you finally get to your clinical rotations, I bet you'll find yourself on the outside of medical school wondering how you are going to pay back the $100k you are already in debt now that you won't be getting a medical degree.
I don't care how strong a medical student is, I will never, ever, let one do anything remotely invasive without my being present. Why? It isn't the med student's license on the line, it is mine and my attending's. Keep dreaming, dude, keep dreaming.

yet have never failed to eventually get access means either they are incompetent, or not trying hard enough, or lazy.

There are people who are called, to those of us in the know, "peripherally exhausted." They have no access.

You were entertaining for a while, but now you've gone too far and I've lost interest.

 

[LizUMD]

I didn't mean to imply that teaching has the EXACT same challenges as medicine...I was only saying that there is a general loss of respect for the profession and that teaching suffers from some similar problems.

In fact, it is attitudes like yours that perpetuate the loss of respect for teachers. You obviously have very little understanding of the responsibilities of most teachers. And, as Sartre79 states, many teachers work additional duties (or second and third jobs) to make up for their severe lack of income (or just because they really want to help the kids.)

I'm a non-trad who spent five years teaching high school math in public schools. Two of those years were in Baltimore City. For starters, its a 10-month year, not 9. I usually got to school at 6:45 (first bell at 7:30, last bell at 2:40) and left around 4:30 once I was done staying after on my own time to help kids or run student groups. When I coached volleyball, I'd go right to practice and get home after 7:00. I taught summer school too, so I actually worked year-round (no regular pay in the summer). I know that the schedule is still pretty good in terms of holiday breaks and no weekends, but on a daily basis it is a demanding schedule. And, dare I say it, I think I put up with at least as much crap from unruly teenagers, their parents and school administrators as physicians do. Talk about other people telling you how to do your job- everyone from George Bush to the state board of ed, to the local board of ed, to your principal, to the subject area coordinators, to the parents of individual students think they know how you should teach each kid and they usually all disagree with each other! And yes, I had a BS in mathematics and a masters in education and made less than 35k per year. I could go on ad nauseum so I'll stop here, but trust me, for a teacher hearing things like "hey, they only work nine months a year and no weekends!" is akin to doctors hearing people complain about how much money they make.

 

[LizUMD]

How do you reckon? That may be how many hours teachers are is in the classroom, but it's not how many hours they work. How do you think lesson plans are made, assignments are graded, parent-teacher conferences happen, etc.

Tell a surgeon they have a sweet lifestyle since they're only in the OR 30 hours a week. Think it through, folks.

God bless you for saying that. "Duty day" in the classroom while the kids are there is only 7.5 hours, but I easily spent another 3 each day giving help after school, writing lesson plans, grading papers and entering grades, making photocopies, calling parents and attending meetings/conferences. Not to mention the time you put in coaching. I agree... think it through before you judge! Isn't that exactly why we resent people not understanding the sacrifices of medicine?

 

[OncoCaP]

Seems like SDN just has a lot of people who complain. There are unhappy doctors and happy doctors out there. There are whiners in every field, including medicine. Residents work a lot of hours and get paid peanuts; they have a lot of reasons to complain. However, when you're done, you have more options. As long as you don't worry excessively about money and don't mind working very hard for many decades, you should be fine.

 

[TRAMD]

There's a lot of negativity out there regarding medicine. Complaints about money, hours, difficulty and everything else you can imagine. I'd like to say that in my 30 years and broad variety of jobs I've had that as doctors/future doctors you're not special. Everywhere I've worked there are people that think their employer is a jerk, business is falling in the toilet, they work too hard, they need to get paid more, things were better 10 years ago, the coffee sucks, and I could go on.

The point: every job/career/business/industry/government has it's problems and most of them have a lot. You can either have a good attitude, work to correct things you can influence, let go of things you can't, and enjoy your life or curse the man for all the things wrong with the world.

I don't mean to sound like a troll but this is something I thought should be addressed. And who knows, I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will tell me about it.

EDIT: I realize at this point that I chose a poor thread title. Something more along the lines of "choose your attitude" was what I was going for.

I totally agree with this sentiment. Man, people love to complain and foretell doom for the medical profession. I will believe it when I see it.