RadOnc Is Still The Best Field in Medicine

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Guys with node positive disease + RT did as well as locally advanced + RT, and/or substantially better than those who did not get RT?

RT for N+ prostate? Don't we have those conclusions for that already from Stampede? They looked at nonmetastatic (either N0 or N+) and showed benefit to RT - James et al JAMA Onc 2016

I'm not even sure which arm of the frankenstein monster that is the stampede trial (given it's 20 arms or whatever) is up for discussion.

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RT for N+ prostate? Don't we have those conclusions for that already from Stampede? They looked at nonmetastatic (either N0 or N+) and showed benefit to RT - James et al JAMA Onc 2016

I'm not even sure which arm of the frankenstein monster that is the stampede trial (given it's 20 arms or whatever) is up for discussion.
I have no confirmed information but the only arm of STAMPEDE that asks an XRT question is Arm H.

Hormone-naive metastatic prostate cancer randomized to SOC (ADT + abi or doce) versus SOC + local XRT to primary. 2000 patients OS endpoint.

If positive then H stands for Hurray!
 
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We've been seeing some signal in data that there would be an advantage to treating the primary in metastatic prostate cancer for awhile now, will be good to get something more concrete.
 
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Sunday afternoon (European time) 21. of October we will know.
Stampede Arm H is being presented at the Presidential Symposium 2 of the ESMO conference.
10 days to go...
 
I have no confirmed information but the only arm of STAMPEDE that asks an XRT question is Arm H.

Hormone-naive metastatic prostate cancer randomized to SOC (ADT + abi or doce) versus SOC + local XRT to primary. 2000 patients OS endpoint.

If positive then H stands for Hurray!

Would refute recently in press HORRAD trial results, but definitely interesting if positive, and HORRAD wasn't perfect by any means.
 
Would refute recently in press HORRAD trial results, but definitely interesting if positive, and HORRAD wasn't perfect by any means.
HORRAD was indeed HORRID. Underpowered big time, let me explain

Hypothesis that drove sample size was that the control arm median survival was 28 months and XRT would lead to a 10 month improvement. The study reported the control arm median survival of 43 months, nearly 6 months longer than the hypothesized experimental arm.

This resulted in a wide hazard ratio for the primary endpoint
: 0.90; 95% CI: 0.70–1.14.

2/3 patients had >5 bone metastases and the median PSA >140. Very advanced disease.

The study was written in 2004 and one shouldn't be too hard on the investigators but given the results it is not possible to infer much about the value of XRT in this setting. The lower limit of the CI is 0.70 and the best estimate is 0.90.

Fortunately STAMPEDE is 2000 patients. It will be of interest to see how STAMPEDE population compares to HORRAD.
 
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I always find it hilarious when people chime in in these threads saying stuff like "we should be more like doctors". Well, speak for yourself. I am a doctor -- my patients and colleagues would agree. If you were so poorly trained and/or unprofessional that you don't even consider yourself a doctor, then that's on you, and not the field.

Furthermore, all this hooplah about immunotherapy this, systemic therapy that once more misses two big points. How many patients are cured by immunotherapy? Or the new targeted agents? Is this like how antibiotics eliminated the field of infectious disease?
 
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I think it would be reasonable to conclude that improved systemic therapy makes local control even MORE important.
 
I think it would be reasonable to conclude that improved systemic therapy makes local control even MORE important.
I once came across a "U" shaped curve depicting the interactions between systemic and local therapies on survival for systemic disease and have been looking for it since: I dont know if it was in Hall, but if someone finds it could you post it. At the extremes, local therapy benefit lessens: When systemic therapy has very little activity, local therapy is not very helpful (pancreatic cancer). When systemic therapy is highly effective, contribution of local therapy also decreases (hodgkins.)
 
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I am a junior faculty member at a top 5-10 program and am involved with both our residency and very closely with the affiliated med school, so I have some insights into how rad onc is faring compared to other fields in terms of anxieties and existential crises, which have been really abounding on this forum over the past 1-2 years. Take what I say with a grain of salt though, since both the med school and our residency are relatively well-reputed so your mileage may vary coming from other backgrounds/residencies.

I think a lot of the angst on this forum is legitimate and I don't want to minimize anyone's troubles finding a job or anxieties about being able to find a job. However, I think a lot of this is overblown and a little bit of "grass is greener" mentality.

1. You can still make a ton of money in rad onc compared to most other fields which have similar hours. Most clinic-based specialties do not allow you to easily make a starting $300K working 32-40 hours per week. Yes, dermatologists make that much, but most 9-5 jobs in medicine are not like that. When you have kids, you will realize how important this schedule is, including no call or real weekend responsibilities. Yes hospitalists can make the same amount for the same amount of "in-house" time, but they work every other weekend for their entire lives and have random weekdays off. This is useless when it comes to spending time with your family and is really only amenable to a 20s/early 30s lifestyle. Yes, the job market is not as good as it was 15 years ago, meaning you can't make 500-600K (in 2018 dollars) working 4 days a week wherever in the country you want. The geographic limitation is the only downside of rad onc, but if you are flexible (move somewhere less than ideal after residency) and hustle (keep in touch with practices in your desired area) you are likely to eventually be able to move there. 3 years in Kansas (making half a million per year) is a small price to pay for the major lifestyle and career satisfaction benefits of rad onc, especially compared to what many other fields go through (e.g. 6 years of hell to become a cardiologist). I hope the job market gets back to mid 2000s level, which it might given retiring baby boomers and growing indications for radiation (see #2 below) but even if radiation oncologists have to split the current pie, the salary (especially per hour of actual work) will still be very high among medical specialties.

2. Indications/duration of radiation is changing (e.g. hypofrac) but growing in other areas. This is most relevant this week with the recent ESMO (edit: meant ASTRO, but looks like this applies to ESMO now too) data. Yes, you will now be paid ~70% for a breast course as you were 15 years ago. Maybe the same thing will happen to prostate. That sucks financially for our field. But there are major areas of rad onc that are growing and already are making some rad oncs very rich that the doom and gloom on this board do not ever mention. Lung cancer screening and lung cancer SBRT could generate as much or more money as all the prostates in the country. Prostate SBRT (if it actually works), while being paid less than a 44 fraction course, may double RO volume if patients no longer want prostatectomies given they could finish their prostate SBRT before they even come for the first post-op visit with the urologist. And the biggest elephant in the room is SBRT for oligometastatic disease or oligoprogression, especially on immunotherapy. This is a massive trove of patients who we never cared for. In residency, if I saw that a patient in multi clinic had metastatic disease, my eyes would basically glaze over and I would just see if anything was acutely symptomatic, and if not, would quickly exit the appointment. In 2018 with immunotherapy and promising data on oligometastatic SBRT (which many of us have long-believed in anyway), there may be an explosion of well-reimbursed SBRT in the coming years which could end up making more than 50% of a typical attending's volume. Couple this with the fact that SBRT is becoming easier and more efficient to deliver with stable reimbursement, this bodes well for our compensation. This is what our thoracic attendings have experienced over the past 10 years, where SBRT used to be a big to-do requiring significant physician time, and now is as routine as anything else we treat.

3. Other fields have existential/job market concerns as well. Yes, radiation may not be around forever. There is always the threat that the next big systemic therapy may make radiation obsolete or diminish it's role. But this concern is there in many fields. Here are some of the anxieties I have heard from the med students I advise for "lifestyle"/competitive specialties, starting with the classic "ROAD." I am painting with a broad brush here but this is just to illustrate every field has anxieties. Overall, despite these anxieties I am confident the smart men and women in each of these fields will adapt their fields and keep them relevant.

Radiology--AI may make this obsolete, plenty about this on the radiology forums
Ophthalmology--A good field, but ultimately based entirely on extremely quick visits which may be susceptible to other practitioners (e.g. optometrists) taking a lot of the volume. Right now regulations prevent this type of encroachment, but it is certainly possible that optometrists could become like CRNAs for anesthesia and work under the supervision of an ophthalmologist, including even cataract surgery which ultimately is learned in 1 year of most ophtho residencies. That would be great financially for the one ophtho supervising 5 optometrists, but not so great for the 5 ophtho's now out of work.
Anesthesia--CRNA's taking over. Plenty about this on the anesthesia forums
Dermatology--okay this one will always be lucrative and protected.

Now some of the other competitive fields

Emergency Medicine--will never be obsolete, but there is reason these guys retire young. Even though they make good money working 32-40 hours per week, having 8-16 of those hours be overnight or otherwise odd hours wears on you, again most significant when you have kids.
Med Onc--Our closest parallel. Will obviously never be obsolete, but what we forget is that these guys are working hard and fast, seeing a lot more patients, quick visits, and generally really churning, and at least in 2018, I doubt any med onc is being paid more for all of this extra work compared to the rad onc sitting right next to him in tumor board who gets 1 hour per new consult. This is an unfortunate reality of how American medicine is paid for, which is that people who "treat" (radiation, procedures, even infusions to an extent) will always make more than people who assess/diagnose and simply prescribe a medication.
Any surgical subspecialty (ENT, uro, NSGY, etc)--Reimbursement cuts. Yes, all fields may have declining reimbursements. But in the "worst case" when all physicians are paid almost the same (like they are in many European countries), the neurosurgeon who slaved away 90 hours a week for 5 years as a resident and then 60 hours a week as an attending will be a lot more upset making $250K/year than the radiation oncologist who worked 55 hours a week as a resident and 40 hours as an attending making $225K/year.
IM subspecialties (GI, cards)--Like surgeons, these guys work HARD. They are also completely dependent on one or two major procedures. For GI, CT colonography or another (e.g. stool genetics) screen for colon cancer could really damage their financial future. For cardiology, echo and cath reimbursements have been declining, and despite all of the valuable good work they do, unfortunately a lot of their pay does come from these "procedures" so my classmates who are cardiologists complain about reimbursement cuts even more than rad oncs.

All of this is to say that yes radiation oncology is not perfect and there are issues, both job market related and big-picture/existential. But there are a lot of positives to our field that this board neglects to mention, and placing our field side-by-side with other competitive fields highlights that you can always find something to worry about no matter what field you are in. I think this negative attitude does med students a disservice since they will wrongly assume these anxieties are limited to radiation oncology, when really these concerns are present in nearly every competitive field. Ultimately I think the way med students should choose a field is based on the classic advice of choosing what you love clinically, and not worrying too much about the other stuff, since the specifics of job markets, reimbursement, etc can change even every few years.
 
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I am a junior faculty member at a top 5-10 program and am involved with both our residency and very closely with the affiliated med school, so I have some insights into how rad onc is faring compared to other fields in terms of anxieties and existential crises, which have been really abounding on this forum over the past 1-2 years. Take what I say with a grain of salt though, since both the med school and our residency are relatively well-reputed so your mileage may vary coming from other backgrounds/residencies.

I think a lot of the angst on this forum is legitimate and I don't want to minimize anyone's troubles finding a job or anxieties about being able to find a job. However, I think a lot of this is overblown and a little bit of "grass is greener" mentality.

1. You can still make a ton of money in rad onc compared to most other fields which have similar hours. Most clinic-based specialties do not allow you to easily make a starting $300K working 32-40 hours per week. Yes, dermatologists make that much, but most 9-5 jobs in medicine are not like that. When you have kids, you will realize how important this schedule is, including no call or real weekend responsibilities. Yes hospitalists can make the same amount for the same amount of "in-house" time, but they work every other weekend for their entire lives and have random weekdays off. This is useless when it comes to spending time with your family and is really only amenable to a 20s/early 30s lifestyle. Yes, the job market is not as good as it was 15 years ago, meaning you can't make 500-600K (in 2018 dollars) working 4 days a week wherever in the country you want. The geographic limitation is the only downside of rad onc, but if you are flexible (move somewhere less than ideal after residency) and hustle (keep in touch with practices in your desired area) you are likely to eventually be able to move there. 3 years in Kansas (making half a million per year) is a small price to pay for the major lifestyle and career satisfaction benefits of rad onc, especially compared to what many other fields go through (e.g. 6 years of hell to become a cardiologist). I hope the job market gets back to mid 2000s level, which it might given retiring baby boomers and growing indications for radiation (see #2 below) but even if radiation oncologists have to split the current pie, the salary (especially per hour of actual work) will still be very high among medical specialties.

2. Indications/duration of radiation is changing (e.g. hypofrac) but growing in other areas. This is most relevant this week with the recent ESMO data. Yes, you will now be paid ~70% for a breast course as you were 15 years ago. Maybe the same thing will happen to prostate. That sucks financially for our field. But there are major areas of rad onc that are growing and already are making some rad oncs very rich that the doom and gloom on this board do not ever mention. Lung cancer screening and lung cancer SBRT could generate as much or more money as all the prostates in the country. Prostate SBRT (if it actually works), while being paid less than a 44 fraction course, may double RO volume if patients no longer want prostatectomies given they could finish their prostate SBRT before they even come for the first post-op visit with the urologist. And the biggest elephant in the room is SBRT for oligometastatic disease or oligoprogression, especially on immunotherapy. This is a massive trove of patients who we never cared for. In residency, if I saw that a patient in multi clinic had metastatic disease, my eyes would basically glaze over and I would just see if anything was acutely symptomatic, and if not, would quickly exit the appointment. In 2018 with immunotherapy and promising data on oligometastatic SBRT (which many of us have long-believed in anyway), there may be an explosion of well-reimbursed SBRT in the coming years which could end up making more than 50% of a typical attending's volume. Couple this with the fact that SBRT is becoming easier and more efficient to deliver with stable reimbursement, this bodes well for our compensation. This is what our thoracic attendings have experienced over the past 10 years, where SBRT used to be a big to-do requiring significant physician time, and now is as routine as anything else we treat.

3. Other fields have existential/job market concerns as well. Yes, radiation may not be around forever. There is always the threat that the next big systemic therapy may make radiation obsolete or diminish it's role. But this concern is there in many fields. Here are some of the anxieties I have heard from the med students I advise for "lifestyle"/competitive specialties, starting with the classic "ROAD." I am painting with a broad brush here but this is just to illustrate every field has anxieties. Overall, despite these anxieties I am confident the smart men and women in each of these fields will adapt their fields and keep them relevant.

Radiology--AI may make this obsolete, plenty about this on the radiology forums
Ophthalmology--A good field, but ultimately based entirely on extremely quick visits which may be susceptible to other practitioners (e.g. optometrists) taking a lot of the volume. Right now regulations prevent this type of encroachment, but it is certainly possible that optometrists could become like CRNAs for anesthesia and work under the supervision of an ophthalmologist, including even cataract surgery which ultimately is learned in 1 year of most ophtho residencies. That would be great financially for the one ophtho supervising 5 optometrists, but not so great for the 5 ophtho's now out of work.
Anesthesia--CRNA's taking over. Plenty about this on the anesthesia forums
Dermatology--okay this one will always be lucrative and protected.

Now some of the other competitive fields

Emergency Medicine--will never be obsolete, but there is reason these guys retire young. Even though they make good money working 32-40 hours per week, having 8-16 of those hours be overnight or otherwise odd hours wears on you, again most significant when you have kids.
Med Onc--Our closest parallel. Will obviously never be obsolete, but what we forget is that these guys are working hard and fast, seeing a lot more patients, quick visits, and generally really churning, and at least in 2018, I doubt any med onc is being paid more for all of this extra work compared to the rad onc sitting right next to him in tumor board who gets 1 hour per new consult. This is an unfortunate reality of how American medicine is paid for, which is that people who "treat" (radiation, procedures, even infusions to an extent) will always make more than people who assess/diagnose and simply prescribe a medication.
Any surgical subspecialty (ENT, uro, NSGY, etc)--Reimbursement cuts. Yes, all fields may have declining reimbursements. But in the "worst case" when all physicians are paid almost the same (like they are in many European countries), the neurosurgeon who slaved away 90 hours a week for 5 years as a resident and then 60 hours a week as an attending will be a lot more upset making $250K/year than the radiation oncologist who worked 55 hours a week as a resident and 40 hours as an attending making $225K/year.
IM subspecialties (GI, cards)--Like surgeons, these guys work HARD. They are also completely dependent on one or two major procedures. For GI, CT colonography or another (e.g. stool genetics) screen for colon cancer could really damage their financial future. For cardiology, echo and cath reimbursements have been declining, and despite all of the valuable good work they do, unfortunately a lot of their pay does come from these "procedures" so my classmates who are cardiologists complain about reimbursement cuts even more than rad oncs.

All of this is to say that yes radiation oncology is not perfect and there are issues, both job market related and big-picture/existential. But there are a lot of positives to our field that this board neglects to mention, and placing our field side-by-side with other competitive fields highlights that you can always find something to worry about no matter what field you are in. I think this negative attitude does med students a disservice since they will wrongly assume these anxieties are limited to radiation oncology, when really these concerns are present in nearly every competitive field. Ultimately I think the way med students should choose a field is based on the classic advice of choosing what you love clinically, and not worrying too much about the other stuff, since the specifics of job markets, reimbursement, etc can change even every few years.
 
the radiation oncologist who worked 55 hours a week as a resident and 40 hours as an attending making $225K/year.

Have to say I'm working as long if not longer hours in PP than I did in residency. Nature of the beast I guess. Even in academics, 40 seems a little low I would think as a FT
 
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Have to say I'm working as long if not longer hours in PP than I did in residency. Nature of the beast I guess. Even in academics, 40 seems a little low I would think as a FT

I worked about the same hours as residency in my first 1-2 years as an attending (55 per week), but it felt much worse because we had a kid at that point and also my expectations were too high after spending 10+ years waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel. Once I got the hang of being at attending, such as not feeling the need to quadruple check volumes and plans, I usually get in around 8:30 AM and am out the door some time between 4:30 and 5 PM, which I have been able to stick to out of necessity since I am responsible for daycare pickup. I do answer some emails and work on research after hours, but don't get much done again due to our small kids.
 
I am a junior faculty member at a top 5-10 program and am involved with both our residency and very closely with the affiliated med school, so I have some insights into how rad onc is faring compared to other fields in terms of anxieties and existential crises, which have been really abounding on this forum over the past 1-2 years. Take what I say with a grain of salt though, since both the med school and our residency are relatively well-reputed so your mileage may vary coming from other backgrounds/residencies.

I think a lot of the angst on this forum is legitimate and I don't want to minimize anyone's troubles finding a job or anxieties about being able to find a job. However, I think a lot of this is overblown and a little bit of "grass is greener" mentality.

1. You can still make a ton of money in rad onc compared to most other fields which have similar hours. Most clinic-based specialties do not allow you to easily make a starting $300K working 32-40 hours per week. Yes, dermatologists make that much, but most 9-5 jobs in medicine are not like that. When you have kids, you will realize how important this schedule is, including no call or real weekend responsibilities. Yes hospitalists can make the same amount for the same amount of "in-house" time, but they work every other weekend for their entire lives and have random weekdays off. This is useless when it comes to spending time with your family and is really only amenable to a 20s/early 30s lifestyle. Yes, the job market is not as good as it was 15 years ago, meaning you can't make 500-600K (in 2018 dollars) working 4 days a week wherever in the country you want. The geographic limitation is the only downside of rad onc, but if you are flexible (move somewhere less than ideal after residency) and hustle (keep in touch with practices in your desired area) you are likely to eventually be able to move there. 3 years in Kansas (making half a million per year) is a small price to pay for the major lifestyle and career satisfaction benefits of rad onc, especially compared to what many other fields go through (e.g. 6 years of hell to become a cardiologist). I hope the job market gets back to mid 2000s level, which it might given retiring baby boomers and growing indications for radiation (see #2 below) but even if radiation oncologists have to split the current pie, the salary (especially per hour of actual work) will still be very high among medical specialties.

2. Indications/duration of radiation is changing (e.g. hypofrac) but growing in other areas. This is most relevant this week with the recent ESMO (edit: meant ASTRO, but looks like this applies to ESMO now too) data. Yes, you will now be paid ~70% for a breast course as you were 15 years ago. Maybe the same thing will happen to prostate. That sucks financially for our field. But there are major areas of rad onc that are growing and already are making some rad oncs very rich that the doom and gloom on this board do not ever mention. Lung cancer screening and lung cancer SBRT could generate as much or more money as all the prostates in the country. Prostate SBRT (if it actually works), while being paid less than a 44 fraction course, may double RO volume if patients no longer want prostatectomies given they could finish their prostate SBRT before they even come for the first post-op visit with the urologist. And the biggest elephant in the room is SBRT for oligometastatic disease or oligoprogression, especially on immunotherapy. This is a massive trove of patients who we never cared for. In residency, if I saw that a patient in multi clinic had metastatic disease, my eyes would basically glaze over and I would just see if anything was acutely symptomatic, and if not, would quickly exit the appointment. In 2018 with immunotherapy and promising data on oligometastatic SBRT (which many of us have long-believed in anyway), there may be an explosion of well-reimbursed SBRT in the coming years which could end up making more than 50% of a typical attending's volume. Couple this with the fact that SBRT is becoming easier and more efficient to deliver with stable reimbursement, this bodes well for our compensation. This is what our thoracic attendings have experienced over the past 10 years, where SBRT used to be a big to-do requiring significant physician time, and now is as routine as anything else we treat.

3. Other fields have existential/job market concerns as well. Yes, radiation may not be around forever. There is always the threat that the next big systemic therapy may make radiation obsolete or diminish it's role. But this concern is there in many fields. Here are some of the anxieties I have heard from the med students I advise for "lifestyle"/competitive specialties, starting with the classic "ROAD." I am painting with a broad brush here but this is just to illustrate every field has anxieties. Overall, despite these anxieties I am confident the smart men and women in each of these fields will adapt their fields and keep them relevant.

Radiology--AI may make this obsolete, plenty about this on the radiology forums
Ophthalmology--A good field, but ultimately based entirely on extremely quick visits which may be susceptible to other practitioners (e.g. optometrists) taking a lot of the volume. Right now regulations prevent this type of encroachment, but it is certainly possible that optometrists could become like CRNAs for anesthesia and work under the supervision of an ophthalmologist, including even cataract surgery which ultimately is learned in 1 year of most ophtho residencies. That would be great financially for the one ophtho supervising 5 optometrists, but not so great for the 5 ophtho's now out of work.
Anesthesia--CRNA's taking over. Plenty about this on the anesthesia forums
Dermatology--okay this one will always be lucrative and protected.

Now some of the other competitive fields

Emergency Medicine--will never be obsolete, but there is reason these guys retire young. Even though they make good money working 32-40 hours per week, having 8-16 of those hours be overnight or otherwise odd hours wears on you, again most significant when you have kids.
Med Onc--Our closest parallel. Will obviously never be obsolete, but what we forget is that these guys are working hard and fast, seeing a lot more patients, quick visits, and generally really churning, and at least in 2018, I doubt any med onc is being paid more for all of this extra work compared to the rad onc sitting right next to him in tumor board who gets 1 hour per new consult. This is an unfortunate reality of how American medicine is paid for, which is that people who "treat" (radiation, procedures, even infusions to an extent) will always make more than people who assess/diagnose and simply prescribe a medication.
Any surgical subspecialty (ENT, uro, NSGY, etc)--Reimbursement cuts. Yes, all fields may have declining reimbursements. But in the "worst case" when all physicians are paid almost the same (like they are in many European countries), the neurosurgeon who slaved away 90 hours a week for 5 years as a resident and then 60 hours a week as an attending will be a lot more upset making $250K/year than the radiation oncologist who worked 55 hours a week as a resident and 40 hours as an attending making $225K/year.
IM subspecialties (GI, cards)--Like surgeons, these guys work HARD. They are also completely dependent on one or two major procedures. For GI, CT colonography or another (e.g. stool genetics) screen for colon cancer could really damage their financial future. For cardiology, echo and cath reimbursements have been declining, and despite all of the valuable good work they do, unfortunately a lot of their pay does come from these "procedures" so my classmates who are cardiologists complain about reimbursement cuts even more than rad oncs.

All of this is to say that yes radiation oncology is not perfect and there are issues, both job market related and big-picture/existential. But there are a lot of positives to our field that this board neglects to mention, and placing our field side-by-side with other competitive fields highlights that you can always find something to worry about no matter what field you are in. I think this negative attitude does med students a disservice since they will wrongly assume these anxieties are limited to radiation oncology, when really these concerns are present in nearly every competitive field. Ultimately I think the way med students should choose a field is based on the classic advice of choosing what you love clinically, and not worrying too much about the other stuff, since the specifics of job markets, reimbursement, etc can change even every few years.

As a current applicant who decided to apply this cycle after a lot of hard thought, thank you so much for providing this perspective. Reading through the RadBio boards fiasco, and the rest of the doom and gloom on this board, I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t seriously considered going into med onc instead. Reading SDN, it’s very easy to start thinking this field has nowhere to go but down.

It sucks when you feel like Rad Onc is the absolute perfect fit for you, and all you read is perspectives telling you to steer clear or forever get taken advantage of by malignant employment situations, and live 2000 miles away from family forever. While I don’t want to discredit or take away from people who have unfortunately been pushed into some of these situations (I’m sure they exist), it almost sounds like these situations are inevitable and the only direction the field is going.

Thanks for providing a different perspective.
 
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Have to say I'm working as long if not longer hours in PP than I did in residency. Nature of the beast I guess. Even in academics, 40 seems a little low I would think as a FT

I agree strongly with this sentiment.

I otherwise agree largely with that post.

But in my practice, I'm working 55-60 hours per week. Tumor boards (some at my multi disciplinary hosptial, some at "community" tumor boards) all over the place, committees/meetings, and a busy patient load ("Hey, Heenan, can you work this guy in today...sure thing Dr. Surg /Med Onc)....all add up to plenty of hours. In our group everyone is five days/week and hours range from 45-60.

There are no doubt 4 day/week jobs still out there, but they're diminishing too. If you practice anywhere competitive and have an inpatient consult service, then I just don't see 40 hour weeks as being common unless you are in a group of >2 docs covering only 1 location.
 
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I do not agree with your post. You probably went to a top 10 program and had jobs referred to you by your attendings. You probably even had rad bio and physics spoon fed to you when the tests were easy. The simple truth now is that many residents at average or below average programs are screwed with no jobs (or jobs they want) and having to retake their boards.

Your perspectives are inaccurate because you are in a top 10 program.


Agreed. The advice given by the poster above about doing what you love clinically and ignoring the surrounding issues is obsolete as far as I’m concerned. It’s such bad advice in this era that to give it to the average medical student would be unethical. Theoretically, you could love Orthopedic surgery and have average step scores. It all comes down to what you’re options are attainable for that person. So in the end, most people settle except maybe tone deaf academics from top tier institutions as they’ve never had to settle for anything but the best. And of course, now we have added in the wrinkle of not only getting into a residency but also the fear that a program maybe so ****ty you now have a 50% chance of failing and not having any indication until it’s too late.
 
I am a junior faculty member at a top 5-10 program and am involved with both our residency and very closely with the affiliated med school, so I have some insights into how rad onc is faring compared to other fields in terms of anxieties and existential crises, which have been really abounding on this forum over the past 1-2 years. Take what I say with a grain of salt though, since both the med school and our residency are relatively well-reputed so your mileage may vary coming from other backgrounds/residencies.

I think a lot of the angst on this forum is legitimate and I don't want to minimize anyone's troubles finding a job or anxieties about being able to find a job. However, I think a lot of this is overblown and a little bit of "grass is greener" mentality.

1. You can still make a ton of money in rad onc compared to most other fields which have similar hours. Most clinic-based specialties do not allow you to easily make a starting $300K working 32-40 hours per week. Yes, dermatologists make that much, but most 9-5 jobs in medicine are not like that. When you have kids, you will realize how important this schedule is, including no call or real weekend responsibilities. Yes hospitalists can make the same amount for the same amount of "in-house" time, but they work every other weekend for their entire lives and have random weekdays off. This is useless when it comes to spending time with your family and is really only amenable to a 20s/early 30s lifestyle. Yes, the job market is not as good as it was 15 years ago, meaning you can't make 500-600K (in 2018 dollars) working 4 days a week wherever in the country you want. The geographic limitation is the only downside of rad onc, but if you are flexible (move somewhere less than ideal after residency) and hustle (keep in touch with practices in your desired area) you are likely to eventually be able to move there. 3 years in Kansas (making half a million per year) is a small price to pay for the major lifestyle and career satisfaction benefits of rad onc, especially compared to what many other fields go through (e.g. 6 years of hell to become a cardiologist). I hope the job market gets back to mid 2000s level, which it might given retiring baby boomers and growing indications for radiation (see #2 below) but even if radiation oncologists have to split the current pie, the salary (especially per hour of actual work) will still be very high among medical specialties.

2. Indications/duration of radiation is changing (e.g. hypofrac) but growing in other areas. This is most relevant this week with the recent ESMO (edit: meant ASTRO, but looks like this applies to ESMO now too) data. Yes, you will now be paid ~70% for a breast course as you were 15 years ago. Maybe the same thing will happen to prostate. That sucks financially for our field. But there are major areas of rad onc that are growing and already are making some rad oncs very rich that the doom and gloom on this board do not ever mention. Lung cancer screening and lung cancer SBRT could generate as much or more money as all the prostates in the country. Prostate SBRT (if it actually works), while being paid less than a 44 fraction course, may double RO volume if patients no longer want prostatectomies given they could finish their prostate SBRT before they even come for the first post-op visit with the urologist. And the biggest elephant in the room is SBRT for oligometastatic disease or oligoprogression, especially on immunotherapy. This is a massive trove of patients who we never cared for. In residency, if I saw that a patient in multi clinic had metastatic disease, my eyes would basically glaze over and I would just see if anything was acutely symptomatic, and if not, would quickly exit the appointment. In 2018 with immunotherapy and promising data on oligometastatic SBRT (which many of us have long-believed in anyway), there may be an explosion of well-reimbursed SBRT in the coming years which could end up making more than 50% of a typical attending's volume. Couple this with the fact that SBRT is becoming easier and more efficient to deliver with stable reimbursement, this bodes well for our compensation. This is what our thoracic attendings have experienced over the past 10 years, where SBRT used to be a big to-do requiring significant physician time, and now is as routine as anything else we treat.

3. Other fields have existential/job market concerns as well. Yes, radiation may not be around forever. There is always the threat that the next big systemic therapy may make radiation obsolete or diminish it's role. But this concern is there in many fields. Here are some of the anxieties I have heard from the med students I advise for "lifestyle"/competitive specialties, starting with the classic "ROAD." I am painting with a broad brush here but this is just to illustrate every field has anxieties. Overall, despite these anxieties I am confident the smart men and women in each of these fields will adapt their fields and keep them relevant.

Radiology--AI may make this obsolete, plenty about this on the radiology forums
Ophthalmology--A good field, but ultimately based entirely on extremely quick visits which may be susceptible to other practitioners (e.g. optometrists) taking a lot of the volume. Right now regulations prevent this type of encroachment, but it is certainly possible that optometrists could become like CRNAs for anesthesia and work under the supervision of an ophthalmologist, including even cataract surgery which ultimately is learned in 1 year of most ophtho residencies. That would be great financially for the one ophtho supervising 5 optometrists, but not so great for the 5 ophtho's now out of work.
Anesthesia--CRNA's taking over. Plenty about this on the anesthesia forums
Dermatology--okay this one will always be lucrative and protected.

Now some of the other competitive fields

Emergency Medicine--will never be obsolete, but there is reason these guys retire young. Even though they make good money working 32-40 hours per week, having 8-16 of those hours be overnight or otherwise odd hours wears on you, again most significant when you have kids.
Med Onc--Our closest parallel. Will obviously never be obsolete, but what we forget is that these guys are working hard and fast, seeing a lot more patients, quick visits, and generally really churning, and at least in 2018, I doubt any med onc is being paid more for all of this extra work compared to the rad onc sitting right next to him in tumor board who gets 1 hour per new consult. This is an unfortunate reality of how American medicine is paid for, which is that people who "treat" (radiation, procedures, even infusions to an extent) will always make more than people who assess/diagnose and simply prescribe a medication.
Any surgical subspecialty (ENT, uro, NSGY, etc)--Reimbursement cuts. Yes, all fields may have declining reimbursements. But in the "worst case" when all physicians are paid almost the same (like they are in many European countries), the neurosurgeon who slaved away 90 hours a week for 5 years as a resident and then 60 hours a week as an attending will be a lot more upset making $250K/year than the radiation oncologist who worked 55 hours a week as a resident and 40 hours as an attending making $225K/year.
IM subspecialties (GI, cards)--Like surgeons, these guys work HARD. They are also completely dependent on one or two major procedures. For GI, CT colonography or another (e.g. stool genetics) screen for colon cancer could really damage their financial future. For cardiology, echo and cath reimbursements have been declining, and despite all of the valuable good work they do, unfortunately a lot of their pay does come from these "procedures" so my classmates who are cardiologists complain about reimbursement cuts even more than rad oncs.

All of this is to say that yes radiation oncology is not perfect and there are issues, both job market related and big-picture/existential. But there are a lot of positives to our field that this board neglects to mention, and placing our field side-by-side with other competitive fields highlights that you can always find something to worry about no matter what field you are in. I think this negative attitude does med students a disservice since they will wrongly assume these anxieties are limited to radiation oncology, when really these concerns are present in nearly every competitive field. Ultimately I think the way med students should choose a field is based on the classic advice of choosing what you love clinically, and not worrying too much about the other stuff, since the specifics of job markets, reimbursement, etc can change even every few years.

Of course somebody from a top 5-10 program would think that the concerns of the "non-elite" in the current situation (and foreseeable future) are overblown. Admittedly, most physicians who graduated more than 10-15 years ago or those who graduated more recently but don't mind packing up and moving literally anywhere in the country, probably think this is overblown too. If I could go back I'd pick radiation oncology 100 times and if I knew I couldn't go into radiation oncology I would go back another 4 years and skip medical school altogether for something else. That's how much I love this field, my job, etc but times have changed.

There is a big difference between the groups above and the average applicant to radiation oncology today (who is probably very competitive to many awesome fields and is considering forever forgoing a career in those fields and entering the radiation oncology job market in 8-10 years from now). Think about that for a minute: I can't think of any group other than medical students who in their mid-20's have to basically commit to their career for the next 30-40 years. It's scary enough for most medical students but most are entering larger fields with more opportunities and/or can later complete worthwhile fellowships, sub-specialize within their practice or learn new techniques and evolve their career depending on interests and market forces. I love, love, love my job but am very much aware that compared to basically every other field of medicine, I'm a one trick pony and very quickly (maybe not over 1-2 years but certainly over a decade and obviously a career) my trick can become boring or the circus shut down. If for whatever reason I lost my ability to practice radiation oncology tomorrow I literally have no idea what I would do - I wouldn't even be comfortable working in the local urgent care next to the liquor store in the half empty strip mall with the "Kmart" logo long gone but still burned into the facade of the front of the building (you can see why I'm not too scared now but at some point supply/demand will penetrate every corner of the country).

A long time ago when I was contemplating surgical residency everybody kept saying "if you love surgery, just do it, the rest will work out" but I took the advise of a mentor who said "only do surgery if you think you'd be more miserable doing anything and everything else." That's the advise I'd give all but the most elite medical student or one who is absolutely sure he and his family would be happy in a very undeserved region (realizing that you might not even get to pick which one - although most would consider both to be "undesirable" there is a big difference between the deep south, rural midwest, etc).
 
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Thank you to the above three posters for replying to my initial post. I agree that my perspective may be biased given that I am at a top 10 program, interacting mainly with our own residents. However, there are a few things that I would still like to add.

1. About 25% of residents train at "top 10" programs, since these are the larger programs. Therefore, I do not think you need to be "elite" to get into a top 10 program, and I also don't think there is a significant difference between programs "ranked" 4-10 and those ranked 11-20. These are all high-volume academic programs with comparable job placements to our program. In fact, depending on who you are talking to, which programs make it into the top 10 versus top 20 likely vary. So I would say my residents' experience is similar to about half of residents out there. Does this represent a bias on my perspective? Yes. But does it make my view "inaccurate?" No.

2. I am only about 5 years ahead of the current senior residents. This is a big reason I wanted to make my post but may not have emphasized this enough. When I was applying for jobs about 5 years ago, I was an average resident from an above average program and had a lot of great options for jobs. Things may have changed over the past few years, made worse by the very unfortunate behavior of the ABR with regard to the boards this year. While these are really unfortunate for the current crop of residents, in the grand scheme of a 30-40 year career, they should not dissuade a med student from joining the field, in my opinion. Every field, within medicine and outside of medicine, has ebbs and flows of job markets. In a small field, these ebbs and flows are accentuated, and in the moment (i.e. when you are a PGY-5 looking for a job having to retake one set of the boards) these feel very acute. But in the long run I think most will remember these as a tough start to an otherwise great career. After the current ABR fiasco, I highly doubt they will repeat the same mistake (even if they don't want to acknowledge the mistake publicly for this year's class), and I am confident boards pass rates will be higher in the future than historic averages. So the ABR disaster should actually reassure current 3rd and 4th year med students that they will likely have an easier time passing the boards. And like I wrote in my initial post above, while in some ways radiation oncology is very specialized and a "one trick pony," there are expanding indications for radiation that will keep us all very busy in the future, including what I believe will be plenty of jobs based on the increased volume. And like I wrote above, while we may feel like a one trick pony, a lot of other fields also likely feel that way based on their dependence on a few billing codes that generate most of their income.
 
Thank you to the above three posters for replying to my initial post. I agree that my perspective may be biased given that I am at a top 10 program, interacting mainly with our own residents. However, there are a few things that I would still like to add.

1. About 25% of residents train at "top 10" programs, since these are the larger programs. Therefore, I do not think you need to be "elite" to get into a top 10 program, and I also don't think there is a significant difference between programs "ranked" 4-10 and those ranked 11-20. These are all high-volume academic programs with comparable job placements to our program. In fact, depending on who you are talking to, which programs make it into the top 10 versus top 20 likely vary. So I would say my residents' experience is similar to about half of residents out there. Does this represent a bias on my perspective? Yes. But does it make my view "inaccurate?" No.

2. I am only about 5 years ahead of the current senior residents. This is a big reason I wanted to make my post but may not have emphasized this enough. When I was applying for jobs about 5 years ago, I was an average resident from an above average program and had a lot of great options for jobs. Things may have changed over the past few years, made worse by the very unfortunate behavior of the ABR with regard to the boards this year. While these are really unfortunate for the current crop of residents, in the grand scheme of a 30-40 year career, they should not dissuade a med student from joining the field, in my opinion. Every field, within medicine and outside of medicine, has ebbs and flows of job markets. In a small field, these ebbs and flows are accentuated, and in the moment (i.e. when you are a PGY-5 looking for a job having to retake one set of the boards) these feel very acute. But in the long run I think most will remember these as a tough start to an otherwise great career. After the current ABR fiasco, I highly doubt they will repeat the same mistake (even if they don't want to acknowledge the mistake publicly for this year's class), and I am confident boards pass rates will be higher in the future than historic averages. So the ABR disaster should actually reassure current 3rd and 4th year med students that they will likely have an easier time passing the boards. And like I wrote in my initial post above, while in some ways radiation oncology is very specialized and a "one trick pony," there are expanding indications for radiation that will keep us all very busy in the future, including what I believe will be plenty of jobs based on the increased volume. And like I wrote above, while we may feel like a one trick pony, a lot of other fields also likely feel that way based on their dependence on a few billing codes that generate most of their income.

I think the biggest issues are

1. Since radiation oncology is (at least for the time being) very competitive then the residents from "smaller" or "non top 5/10/elite, etc." no matter how you define them are still exceptional students who have many options in other incredible fields. I've been saying for years that radiation oncology for me has been an absolute dream job but there are other excellent specialties out there that are wide open for even the less competitive radiation oncology resident so why take the chance. Now with this ABR nonsense I not only say why take a chance but look elsewhere unless the thought of doing anything else is appalling.

As an aside: I wonder what an "acceptable" failure rate is for radiation oncology residency. In other words, what "should" the failure rate be for people who do so well in high school that they are accepted to a top college and then continue as the cream of the crop to get to medical school where they continue to excel and are accepted to an ultra-competitive specialty like radiation oncology and finish five years of training? Knowing what it takes to get accepted to any radiation oncology residency vs what it take to be a very good radiation oncologist I would say 0-2%.

2. What if instead of just a low point in a natural up and down cycle it keeps going down (older physicians will remember how tough the market was in the 1990's then 10-12 years later it was a whole different world so maybe that will happen again . . . VERY unlikely if you really compare what was/is driving the changes then vs now? Nobody can tell the future but it's a whole lot of relative risk (if you're competitive enough for radiation oncology your competitive enough for a whole lot of awesome, more stable, and now it seems like less corrupt, fields).
 
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the corruption of the ABR is apalling. I am so dissapointed by all of this. I feel like this is really lowering a lot of people’s morale.
 
What other fields would you have considered as a medical student? It seems like rad onc is a great gig and many specialties have downsides. With the exception of derm.
 
What other fields would you have considered as a medical student? It seems like rad onc is a great gig and many specialties have downsides. With the exception of derm.
Agreed. There really isn't anything else like rad onc... med onc has some aspects I guess, but missing the imaging/surgical/procedural aspect which is a huge downer
 
Thank you to the above three posters for replying to my initial post. I agree that my perspective may be biased given that I am at a top 10 program, interacting mainly with our own residents. However, there are a few things that I would still like to add.

1. About 25% of residents train at "top 10" programs, since these are the larger programs. Therefore, I do not think you need to be "elite" to get into a top 10 program, and I also don't think there is a significant difference between programs "ranked" 4-10 and those ranked 11-20. These are all high-volume academic programs with comparable job placements to our program. In fact, depending on who you are talking to, which programs make it into the top 10 versus top 20 likely vary. So I would say my residents' experience is similar to about half of residents out there. Does this represent a bias on my perspective? Yes. But does it make my view "inaccurate?" No.

2. I am only about 5 years ahead of the current senior residents. This is a big reason I wanted to make my post but may not have emphasized this enough. When I was applying for jobs about 5 years ago, I was an average resident from an above average program and had a lot of great options for jobs. Things may have changed over the past few years, made worse by the very unfortunate behavior of the ABR with regard to the boards this year. While these are really unfortunate for the current crop of residents, in the grand scheme of a 30-40 year career, they should not dissuade a med student from joining the field, in my opinion. Every field, within medicine and outside of medicine, has ebbs and flows of job markets. In a small field, these ebbs and flows are accentuated, and in the moment (i.e. when you are a PGY-5 looking for a job having to retake one set of the boards) these feel very acute. But in the long run I think most will remember these as a tough start to an otherwise great career. After the current ABR fiasco, I highly doubt they will repeat the same mistake (even if they don't want to acknowledge the mistake publicly for this year's class), and I am confident boards pass rates will be higher in the future than historic averages. So the ABR disaster should actually reassure current 3rd and 4th year med students that they will likely have an easier time passing the boards. And like I wrote in my initial post above, while in some ways radiation oncology is very specialized and a "one trick pony," there are expanding indications for radiation that will keep us all very busy in the future, including what I believe will be plenty of jobs based on the increased volume. And like I wrote above, while we may feel like a one trick pony, a lot of other fields also likely feel that way based on their dependence on a few billing codes that generate most of their income.

I doubt we are seeing ebbs and flow. The ebb is a result of doubling residency spots and hypofractionation. No field in medicine is more geographically restrictive right now and as a junior faculty member, I would ask: if your department became malignant or you lost your job, what is the likelihood you could find a similar gig in your region without relocating your family. Do you get one or two unsolicited job offers in your area per year? If not, the job market where you are is very tight, and others 5 years from now cant expect your good fortune.

I have many colleagues from training who are midlevel faculty, and most of them love their career. Almost all of them say they interview very infrequently and that there is virtually no mobility in their area. 5-10 years ago, promotions and raises where almost always preceded by interviewing. It was almost expected of junior faculty.

Lastly regarding non physician providers in other specialties. This issue has been around fo 30 years and not had significant impacts on job markets and poses a non-unique threat to us as well.

Without corrective action, I foresee an absolute sh--t storm in the job market in 5-10 years that will not be offset by the handful of extra oligomets on treament at any one time.
 
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Without corrective action, I foresee an absolute sh--t storm in the job market in 5-10 years that will not be offset by the handful of extra oligomets on treament at any one time.
In support of Row Row guy, nothing is ever as bad as it seems. Prob the truth/future will be somewhere between sh--t storm and good; that's usually the case. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. (I also wanna know what constitutes a "top 10" program these days... ALL your residents pass ALL the writtens?... your academic team wins the ASTRO 5K?...)
 
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I doubt we are seeing ebbs and flow. The ebb is a result of doubling residency spots and hypofractionation. No field in medicine is more geographically restrictive right now and as a junior faculty member, I would ask: if your department became malignant or you lost your job, what is the likelihood you could find a similar gig in your region without relocating your family. Do you get one or two unsolicited job offers in your area per year? If not, the job market where you are is very tight, and others 5 years from now cant expect your good fortune.

I have many colleagues from training who are midlevel faculty, and most of them love their career. Almost all of them say they interview very infrequently and that there is virtually no mobility in their area. 5-10 years ago, promotions and raises where almost always preceded by interviewing. It was almost expected of junior faculty.

Lastly regarding non physician providers in other specialties. This issue has been around fo 30 years and not had significant impacts on job markets and poses a non-unique threat to us as well.

Without corrective action, I foresee an absolute sh--t storm in the job market in 5-10 years that will not be offset by the handful of extra oligomets on treament at any one time.

I agree with you completely. There are multiple indicators suggesting that supply of BC rad oncs will far outweigh demand in the next decade. Not BC/BE because of the mess with the ABR? I can't imagine how bad it will be. Our field is already weird in that locums rates are lower than the equivalent perm rate. A locums makes around $1500/day (for now, lets see what happens when the locums pool balloons) whereas a typical rad onc in private practice is probably making up to $2500/day. In most fields it's the other way around. Anybody really think it's going to stay like that as we all become employed?

As somebody about to graduate, I am disregarding geography completely and going with the highest compensation I can get and planning to save and invest aggressively over the next 5-10 years. I would not be comfortable having to depend on a steady income from practicing rad onc over the next 20 years and want to build a safety net for when the bottom falls out. Current M3s are 7-8 years out from earning their first rad onc paycheck, and with all this talk and complaining about struggling to find jobs in big cities, I think we need to count our blessings that we can still earn a good living in less desirable areas. Too many of my peers want to eat their cake and have it too. Give me the option of a $300k associate position in NYC or an $800k employed job in Alaska, I'm going to take the AK job. One of those will let me secure an early retirement rapidly. The other has no job or income security at all and is a risk I would not be willing to take in this environment. Being geographically picky is not something we can afford, and no med student should even think about this field if they are not willing to live literally anywhere in the country. The thing I am not sure of is just how much downward pressure we will see on salaries outside of major metros as competition for these jobs increases.
 
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All specialties have their issues, which I think is a very important take-away from this discussion. Even derm is having big-time issues with venture capital companies buying up private practices, employing dermatologists, and ruthlessly competing against other private practices. With the lay press now reporting on the VC practices shady "go into the nursing home to find skin cancer" techniques, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they're under the lens of payers even more than usual.

The big, big difference between radonc and any/all other residencies is the geographic restriction. Always has been, always will be.
 
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I doubt we are seeing ebbs and flow. The ebb is a result of doubling residency spots and hypofractionation. No field in medicine is more geographically restrictive right now and as a junior faculty member, I would ask: if your department became malignant or you lost your job, what is the likelihood you could find a similar gig in your region without relocating your family. Do you get one or two unsolicited job offers in your area per year? If not, the job market where you are is very tight, and others 5 years from now cant expect your good fortune.

I have many colleagues from training who are midlevel faculty, and most of them love their career. Almost all of them say they interview very infrequently and that there is virtually no mobility in their area. 5-10 years ago, promotions and raises where almost always preceded by interviewing. It was almost expected of junior faculty.

Lastly regarding non physician providers in other specialties. This issue has been around fo 30 years and not had significant impacts on job markets and poses a non-unique threat to us as well.

Without corrective action, I foresee an absolute sh--t storm in the job market in 5-10 years that will not be offset by the handful of extra oligomets on treament at any one time.

Hypofractionation hurts our bottom line in the short run but is better in the long run. One example is prostate, either moderate hypofractionation or SBRT. Some men just want to be done with treatment quickly rather than drive in every day for two months, so they choose surgery. Maybe you'll make less money from the patient who gets SBRT rather than 44 fractions, but at hypofractionation (in addition to other innovations) will keep us relevant and competitive with surgery.

I agree that rad onc is more geographically restrictive than most other specialties. But so is being an investment banking CEO. Both are incredibly good jobs to have, and just because you aren't able to move jobs every 5 years, doesn't mean that your job working 9-5 (or maybe a little more) and making $2,500 per day (translates to >$600K/year) isn't a fantastic one. And you're right that if my job became malignant over the next 5 years, it wouldn't be easy to change jobs since my academic center has taken over a lot of nearby practices. But what would it really look like if my job became "malignant?" Would I have it as bad as a cardiologist (overnight call at least once a week), surgeon (unpredictable lifestyle), or even PCP (5 minute visits)? Probably not.

And I personally do not think we will just be dealing with a "handful" of oligomets. I think better systemic therapy is going to eventually open the floodgates for a new type of radiation oncology, where we are involved with patient care from diagnosis to death for almost every patient with cancer, rather than saying "goodbye" at the first restaging showing newly metastatic disease. RT is becoming less and less toxic and maybe we could deliver multiple SBRT courses to keep an individual's metastatic disease at bay over the course of their lifetime. From a purely financial perspective, this is better for the rad onc's pocketbook than even a curable patient who gets 30-44 fractions and then is done.

All specialties have their issues, which I think is a very important take-away from this discussion. Even derm is having big-time issues with venture capital companies buying up private practices, employing dermatologists, and ruthlessly competing against other private practices. With the lay press now reporting on the VC practices shady "go into the nursing home to find skin cancer" techniques, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they're under the lens of payers even more than usual.

The big, big difference between radonc and any/all other residencies is the geographic restriction. Always has been, always will be.

Completely agree here. The point of my post is that we should not be looking at rad onc in a vacuum (med students aren't). Every field has downsides, and placing our downsides (geographic restrictions) or existential issues (overtraining) next to the things threatening other fields is a good way to count your blessings.
 
[And I personally do not think we will just be dealing with a "handful" of oligomets. I think better systemic therapy is going to eventually open the floodgates for a new type of radiation oncology, where we are involved with patient care from diagnosis to death for almost every patient with cancer, rather than saying "goodbye" at the first restaging showing newly metastatic disease. RT is becoming less and less toxic and maybe we could deliver multiple SBRT courses to keep an individual's metastatic disease at bay over the course of their lifetime. From a purely financial perspective, this is better for the rad onc's pocketbook than even a curable patient who gets 30-44 fractions and then is done.]

Very much agree here- the data we're getting on SBRT for oligomets is huge. It's already changed my practice patterns, to where I'm now going to continue to follow patients with metastatic disease to help determine when SBRT would be appropriate. It's rare we get to see a true paradigm shift in a field, but that's exactly what this is.
 
In support of Row Row guy, nothing is ever as bad as it seems. Prob the truth/future will be somewhere between sh--t storm and good; that's usually the case. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. (I also wanna know what constitutes a "top 10" program these days... ALL your residents pass ALL the writtens?... your academic team wins the ASTRO 5K?...)

I was impressed by the breast presentation on Five fraction treatment. The 10 year differences in toxicity were minimal and could almost certainly be eliminated if treatment volumes were reduced to partial breast or an arm with 5.5 x 5.
 
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Couple of things that I felt were positive leaving ASTRO:

Oligomet data is huge. I think this is something we can present to our medical oncologists and opens up a huge number of patients for treatment. You may be doing 3-5 fraction SBRT for the patient initially, but this patient may need it 3-4+ times in the course of their life.

For prostate, I think it's the urologists that should be really worried about hypofractionation/ultrahypofractionation. NYU put out some pretty good data on ultra-hypofractionation that will make it much more difficult for urologists to pitch prostatectomy. 5 fractions, low rates of GI toxicity, no down time, no incontinence. Sure, you're not getting as much money per patient using 40 fractions, but you could be treating the patients that couldn't previously set aside 8 weeks for treatment that went for a prostatectomy.
 
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For prostate, I think it's the urologists that should be really worried about hypofractionation/ultrahypofractionation. NYU put out some pretty good data on ultra-hypofractionation that will make it much more difficult for urologists to pitch prostatectomy. 5 fractions, low rates of GI toxicity, no down time, no incontinence. Sure, you're not getting as much money per patient using 40 fractions, but you could be treating the patients that couldn't previously set aside 8 weeks for treatment that went for a prostatectomy.

Agree with all of that. Ultra-hypofractionation is good for the patient (convenience, low toxicity), our field (technically sophisticated, additional procedures including spaceOAR + fiducials may be used), and society (less expenditures for Medicare/Medicaid). For Radiation Oncologists that is the holy trifecta, we need to embrace it and move forward.
 
Agree with all of that. Ultra-hypofractionation is good for the patient (convenience, low toxicity), our field (technically sophisticated, additional procedures including spaceOAR + fiducials may be used), and society (less expenditures for Medicare/Medicaid). For Radiation Oncologists that is the holy trifecta, we need to embrace it and move forward.
I completely agree. My concern is not reimbursement/income, but how many radiation oncologists will we need for that kind of setting. (I highly doubt the answer is double what we needed 10 years ago.) If incomes go down, it is not the end of the world; but underemployment is really problematic as we are "one trick ponies," and that will seriously impact the quality of docs who choose to enter this field.
 
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Site admin...Can you please close down this thread.

The title and some of the content is misleading to med students. I cannot understand how someone can still in good conscious advise med students to go into this field. Nothing has happend at ASTRO. Programs are still talking about expanding, ABR won't make any changes, and us who failed rad bio/physics are still screwed. I am literally trying to fight off clinical depression. How can one not be depressed when there is no board certification or jobs after 4 years of med school and 5 years of residency. I don't know where all the jobs other people are talking about are because I certainly don't have many interviews. Unless you count talking to locum tenen companies an interview. This is not fair.

I will just add that in the last 2 months I have had 2 locums companies contact me asking not if I was available for locums but did I have any work for a doctor that wants to do locums. I'm 5-10 yr in pp and don't ever recall being solicited to hire locums until now. I used to get emails/calls asking me to do locums, but those are notably less frequent.
 
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Agree with all of that. Ultra-hypofractionation is good for the patient (convenience, low toxicity), our field (technically sophisticated, additional procedures including spaceOAR + fiducials may be used), and society (less expenditures for Medicare/Medicaid). For Radiation Oncologists that is the holy trifecta, we need to embrace it and move forward.

I totally agree that this is the case for people like me happily living in the middle of nowhere with no competition and houses, cars, and student loans paid off. I will happily continue in this field transitioning from the current standards of care to hypofractionation (or increased observation such as in breast) and will probably actually enjoy my job even more since all of this is better for patients and society. I definitely think my patient volume will increase while the # patients x # treatments will decrease faster and so my salary will decrease but it'll still be more than enough for my needs and my overall job will still be better than anything else I could do.

I am really concerned about everybody else though and terrified for the current residents (but not very sympathetic to any medical students who enter this field moving forward since they have sufficiently been warned).
 
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I totally agree that this is the case for people like me happily living in the middle of nowhere with no competition and houses, cars, and student loans paid off. I will happily continue in this field transitioning from the current standards of care to hypofractionation (or increased observation such as in breast) and will probably actually enjoy my job even more since all of this is better for patients and society. I definitely think my patient volume will increase while the # patients x # treatments will decrease faster and so my salary will decrease but it'll still be more than enough for my needs and my overall job will still be better than anything else I could do.

I am really concerned about everybody else though and terrified for the current residents (but not very sympathetic to any medical students who enter this field moving forward since they have sufficiently been warned).

I am in a similar position, employed in a nonprofit community hospital. Reduced reimbursements/fractionation will ultimately result in closure of my competition which consists of a number of for-profit outpt centers (21C and others) with 10-20 on beam. Our hospital operates plenty of unprofitable services because of its mission to serve the community and we will be open for business whether or not we are profitable.. In addition to doubling residency slots, consolidation will certainly have an impact on the job market.
 
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I am in a similar position in a nonprofit community hospital. Reduced reimbursements/fractionation will ultimately result in closure of my competition which consists of a number of for-profit outpt centers (21C and others) with 10-20 on beam. Our hospital operates plenty of unprofitable services because of its mission to serve the community and we will be open for business whether or not we are profitable.. In addition to doubling residency slots, consolidation will certainly have an impact on the job market.

Unless those centers have preferred network status with insurance companies, or have made shared risk/alternative payment bundle arrangements.

We are the cheaper provider in my area compared to the hospital system and, as such, are in network with many of the plans the hospital system isn't.

Site neutral payment reform will reduce reimbursement of hospital depts to that of freestanding centers when it comes to pass (probably will happen in the next few years, along with bundled payments)
 
Site admin...Can you please close down this thread.

The title and some of the content is misleading to med students. I cannot understand how someone can still in good conscious advise med students to go into this field. Nothing has happend at ASTRO. Programs are still talking about expanding, ABR won't make any changes, and us who failed rad bio/physics are still screwed. I am literally trying to fight off clinical depression. How can one not be depressed when there is no board certification or jobs after 4 years of med school and 5 years of residency. I don't know where all the jobs other people are talking about are because I certainly don't have many interviews. Unless you count talking to locum tenen companies an interview. This is not fair.

So what is your plan? Try again? Locums? Fellowship? Second residency? I suppose if someone did a prelim they could do medicine. it may be time to accept nobody cares to help you (with power) and they dont care about you at the top (cost of doing business). So whats next for you? I hope for a positive outcome for those in your position. It may not be a bad idea to take some ssri. There is nothing wrong with seeking help. Dont let it get out of hand. There are people who care about you.
 
Unless those centers have preferred network status with insurance companies, or have made shared risk/alternative payment bundle arrangements.

We are the cheaper provider in my area compared to the hospital system and, as such, are in network with many of the plans the hospital system isn't.

Site neutral payment reform will reduce reimbursement of hospital depts to that of freestanding centers when it comes to pass (probably will happen in the next few years, along with bundled payments)[/QUO

.

True, but my sense is that for this to work, you need a lot of pts on beam- in many parts of the country- which will require some consolidation. I dont think that at these preferential rates, many centers can be profitable with 10-20 pts on beam. Again, many of us will be comfortable and happy for the next 10 years, but I just cant understand how anyone can be confident that a medstudent applicant will be ok in this field 5 years from now. Anything but caveat emptor is almost sinister.
 
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True, but my sense is that for this to work, you need a lot of pts on beam- in many parts of the country- which will require some consolidation. I dont think that at these preferential rates, many centers can be profitable with 10-20 pts on beam. Again, many of us will be comfortable for the next 10 years, but I just cant understand how anyone can be confident that a medstudent applicant will be ok in this field 5 years from now.
Agreed. I've seen the job quality decline over last several years... less pp/partnership track jobs, and then less hospital jobs in desirable areas.

Again, I think the rural/Midwestern job market and higher compensation will hold up for awhile, but if you want to make good money in a desirable metro, those opportunities are close to non-existent at this point
 
With regards to locums, I am getting 2-3 emails a day and 2-3 phone calls a week AS A PGY-5. That's right, they want me to sign up for locums after I graduate. Hopefully we will all find real jobs, but I think the reality is that a handful of us will end up in these, probably getting $1000/day with weeks of downtime in between.

Look at emergency medicine. Those guys have a 3 year residency and are earning up to $600 per HOUR for locums work (don't believe me, check the EM forums). They don't have three written board exams. They can work 4-5 days a month if they want and make a living that's equivalent or better than a rad onc locums. And they can work anywhere any the country with no problem. Most of us get, what, 4 maybe 5 weeks of vacation and struggle to even take that? I know EM guys that just say see ya and go to Thailand for a month. No big deal at all. In all 4 years of residency I have never seen an attending take more than two weeks off in a row. More than one week is rare.

I'm surprised applicant numbers are as high as 190. I can definitely see the bottom falling out very fast with dozens of unmatched spots and FMGs scrambling in. If 45% of cream of the crop residents failed physics or bio boards, how do you think this new generation of rad onc residents will do? It's a total disaster, and has slowly been sinking in over the past 2 months since the ABR threw us all under the bus. No, I'm sorry, rad onc is not "still the best field in medicine." Not even by a long-shot.
 
. Most of us get, what, 4 maybe 5 weeks of vacation and struggle to even take that? I know EM guys that just say see ya and go to Thailand for a month. No big deal at all. In all 4 years of residency I have never seen an attending take more than two weeks off in a row. More than one week is rare.
.

Huge plus to gas, rads and em over rad onc is episodic care which lends itself better to taking more and longer vacations, vs necessity of continuity of care in rad onc.

The double edged sword of being in a successful long term pp is developing a reputation in the community and with referring MDs to get patients in quickly.

Practice takes a hit when you have a locums babysitter for more than a week or two
 
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With regards to locums, I am getting 2-3 emails a day and 2-3 phone calls a week AS A PGY-5. That's right, they want me to sign up for locums after I graduate. Hopefully we will all find real jobs, but I think the reality is that a handful of us will end up in these, probably getting $1000/day with weeks of downtime in between.

Look at emergency medicine. Those guys have a 3 year residency and are earning up to $600 per HOUR for locums work (don't believe me, check the EM forums). They don't have three written board exams. They can work 4-5 days a month if they want and make a living that's equivalent or better than a rad onc locums. And they can work anywhere any the country with no problem. Most of us get, what, 4 maybe 5 weeks of vacation and struggle to even take that? I know EM guys that just say see ya and go to Thailand for a month. No big deal at all. In all 4 years of residency I have never seen an attending take more than two weeks off in a row. More than one week is rare.

I'm surprised applicant numbers are as high as 190. I can definitely see the bottom falling out very fast with dozens of unmatched spots and FMGs scrambling in. If 45% of cream of the crop residents failed physics or bio boards, how do you think this new generation of rad onc residents will do? It's a total disaster, and has slowly been sinking in over the past 2 months since the ABR threw us all under the bus. No, I'm sorry, rad onc is not "still the best field in medicine." Not even by a long-shot.

The grass isn't always as green as it seems- every specialty has their issues. While, yes, the EM guys make a lot per hour and can do shift work, they have basically zero job security, as they're all essentially contracted employees for a hospital. Stories of hospitals dumping their entire ER staff for another group/corporate entity are everywhere. Not being able to find work in a particular location is one thing, but having to up and move your whole family with no warning is also a big deal.

The really frustrating thing with radonc is that we've done this to ourselves. If our "leaders" had simply kept a close eye on things and made careful, logical adjustments to residency spots and had been respectful and careful with respect to our board exams, we'd have none of these problems. However, they chose to do precisely nothing. Well done.
 
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Medgator: Yup, I am tired of being restricted to 1 week vacations in residency. You can't really get anywhere far away before you have to come right back home. Unless you join a rare practice that values time off (they do exist, I talked to one that gave 10 weeks vacation and 4 day work week albeit with a salary hit), rad onc isn't conducive to time off. More likely you will be in an academic or employed gig with 4-5 weeks of vacation or a private practice set up where taking time off is prohibitively expensive (either due to not being able to eat what you kill for a month or having to pay locums) and damaging to your practice. Nobody told me that as a med student. My generation tends to value time off and has a penchant for international travel/adventure, and there's one more strike for med students. Sure, if you get a job in a populated area next to your family and you are married with children, the 8-5 M-F lifestyle can be nice as you can't really leave home anyway and you can take your kids to Disney in the summer for a week. But how many of us are going to get those jobs, and if you're single or newly married without kids and end up in a rural area, you're going to want to get out of town... often.

Imaging being a single person in his/her early 30s in a small midwestern town away from your family (or worse with a spouse who didn't want to move or couldn't find work in the small town), not being able to take any time off (long weekends are impossible because if you're lucky enough to have an airport, there's probably only a few flights a day that all require a connector), and getting paid 50% of what you would have made 10 years ago. This is going to be the reality for a lot of people.

OTN: Yes, EM has some issues. I personally wouldn't do it because I can't stand to spend one second in the ED. But if I could even just barely tolerate it, I would. In comparison to rad onc's issues, EM's issues are trivial.
 
That's funny. They flushed the field down the toilet.
I watched Paul Harari's presedential address at ASTRO. He spent about 5-10 minutes showing pictures of various members of his family, who were in the audience to witness his becoming ASTRO president. He implied the importance of funding RO1s, and issues that are of secondary importance to 95% of us. ASTRO "leaders" are there to bask in professional honor. Its not like they take leadership positions with an agenda to address the concerns of the membership. He is clearly there to represent the interests of a few large academic centers and proton centers and the astronomical prices that they charge. If the job market is destroyed to provide cheap labor in the form of excess residents and fellows, would he bat and eye?
 
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I watched Paul Harari's presedential address at ASTRO. He spent about 5-10 minutes showing pictures of various members of his family, who were in the audience to witness his becoming ASTRO president. He implied the importance of funding RO1s, and issues that are of secondary importance to 95% of us. ASTRO "leaders" are there to bask in professional honor. Its not like they take leadership positions with an agenda to address the concerns of the membership. He is clearly there to represent the interests of a few large academic centers and proton centers and the astronomical prices that they charge. If the job market is destroyed to provide cheap labor in the form of excess residents and fellows, would he bat and eye?

Astro Is always a nauseating experience once you understand what the meeting is about. On the one hand you have academic gurus finally able to bask in some glory that they’ve been waiting all year to soak up. They spent all year talking about minute details on a hilltop for someone to listen to. They think people care, “obviously people care when I talk about 3 vs 4mm CTV expansion right?! Right?” They go to their program parties and compare stories of the last one or two years and act like everything is so great, even the junior people getting dumped on from above. They make Subtle snide comments about the people that opted for good lifestyles making twice as much as they are working half as hard. Clearly those people ‘aren’t as smart.’ Instead of looking at you and smiling they look first at your name badge to see where you practice before making a decision whether to smile or not. The sickest thing was the mid age academic men that would go to posters to talk to the young girls, residents and med students. Didn’t matter how bad their projects were, pretty girls were the rockstars of the poster session. At least that is over now w the digital posters, kudos to the organizing committee for inadvertently making life harder for this decrepit academic breed.

The other half is the exhibitors w their green badges. These are actually the important people despite being scarlet lettered w a green badge. They have slick back hair and stand around in green badge circles most of the meeting also trying hard to see your badge instead of looking directly at you as a human being to see if you are at a center that purchases 10 Linacs or not. If not, well your a peasant to them, they mentally spit on you as you pass by.
 
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