Rambo Physician

[halethsonofhama]

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During a tour of BAMC, in San Antonio, the recruiters were mentioning that physicians have the option to train in military operations like SF, airborne, etc...



I'm assuming they don't allow physicians to go "Rambo" on everybodies ass on the battle field. What is the point of doing this?

Or is this just something they were saying we could do as a trick, and this type of training is not possible for a physician?

 

[AF M4]

During a tour of BAMC, in San Antonio, the recruiters were mentioning that physicians have the option to train in military operations like SF, airborne, etc...



I'm assuming they don't allow physicians to go "Rambo" on everybodies ass on the battle field. What is the point of doing this?

Or is this just something they were saying we could do as a trick, and this type of training is not possible for a physician?

Kinda sorta. Some billets have opportunities to go to training courses like SERE, you'll be trained how to fire different types of firearms, you can beg/borrow/steal your way into jump school. I've been to a bunch of these courses and they're a lot more fun in theory. Plus I've gotten to treat all the torn ACLs and concussions that other guys received during their training. People get a little too enthusiastic about playing Chuck Norris during combatives.

The point of sending docs to all this is a bit questionable, because those "Rambo" teams as you put it have some of their members trained as medics. Docs also lose their Geneva Convention status when they fire a gun in anger.

And when it comes right down to it, a well trained 19 year old medic can do everything a 35 year old doctor can do in the field. The doctor, however, is older, slower, and has a decade of training and somewhere in the range of 250-500K of military money invested in his education. Sorry doc, back to the EMEDS tent where you can do the job you were trained for.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

Kinda sorta. Some billets have opportunities to go to training courses like SERE, you'll be trained how to fire different types of firearms, you can beg/borrow/steal your way into jump school. I've been to a bunch of these courses and they're a lot more fun in theory. Plus I've gotten to treat all the torn ACLs and concussions that other guys received during their training. People get a little too enthusiastic about playing Chuck Norris during combatives.

The point of sending docs to all this is a bit questionable, because those "Rambo" teams as you put it have some of their members trained as medics. Docs also lose their Geneva Convention status when they fire a gun in anger.

And when it comes right down to it, a well trained 19 year old medic can do everything a 35 year old doctor can do in the field. The doctor, however, is older, slower, and has a decade of training and somewhere in the range of 250-500K of military money invested in his education. Sorry doc, back to the EMEDS tent where you can do the job you were trained for.

Part of me wants to become a corpsman right now for these exact reasons, though I want to be a doctor much more than I want to experience the battlefield.

 

[AF M4]

Part of me wants to become a corpsman right now for these exact reasons, though I want to be a doctor much more than I want to experience the battlefield.

Most of the corpsmen (or their equivalents) that I've talked or worked with are full of questions about how to become a doctor and what it's like.

 

[tabascosauce]

sigh the grass is always greener on the other side...

is this real life?

 

[pgg]

The line needs doctors not MC doofuses who think they're at adventure summer camp.

 

[tabascosauce]

The line needs doctors not MC doofuses who think they're at adventure summer camp.

yeah! lol 👍

 

[halethsonofhama]

I'm not looking to go out and fire a weapon at anybody, but I really do think getting deployed will be a great experience (look at me, so young and naive). I hope to become an EM doc and I think the military would be a great start for that.

With that said, I would prefer to be deployed in a position closer to whatever action is going on. (if I'm going to be in the military, I might as well get the full experience). How common is it for ER docs to be in forward positions like this?

 

[Superman1978]

I'm not looking to go out and fire a weapon at anybody, but I really do think getting deployed will be a great experience (look at me, so young and naive). I hope to become an EM doc and I think the military would be a great start for that.

With that said, I would prefer to be deployed in a position closer to whatever action is going on. (if I'm going to be in the military, I might as well get the full experience). How common is it for ER docs to be in forward positions like this?

I was enlisted for 10 years before getting out, getting my degree, and getting into medical school. Bullets whizzing over your head won't make you a better physician. It will, however, put your life in danger. I don't want to sound rude and/or condescending but if you had any idea what you were truly asking, you wouldn't desire it. War isn't like Call of Duty. If you want to see action, join the infantry. If you want to be a doctor, be a doctor.

 

[Superman1978]

Also, it's unlikely as a doctor you would be "in the thick of it". Medics and corpsman are trained to deal with the battlefield injuries. The military has invested a lot of time and $ in you. While a handful of doc's have seen some combat, it wasn't intentional (wrong place, wrong time).

 

[kingcer0x]

My army colleagues tell me it is commonplace for a physician to go to a level one or two aid station, especially GMO types. I think they prefer to use PAs in the level ones to supervise the medics/corpsmen but docs go too. Level 1's are forward locations.

But if you want to do patrols and kick doors down, I agree with everyone, join the infantry. Doc skills are best utilized inside the wire.

 

[halethsonofhama]

I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying I want to go out playing "army man" and get shot at. BUT I would like to be there to offer care for those who are getting shot at.

As an EM Doc, I hope my skills will be utilized to treat battlefield wounds and injuries; not at some rear echelon base preforming I&D's on abscesses.

Its the general opinion that "if you had any idea what you were truly asking, you wouldn't desire it." Yes, war is Hell. While I've never experienced it first hand I've done my fair share of talking to veterans and reading memoirs to know its not 'Call of Duty.' However, with that said I would feel like I wouldn't get the full experience of my 8 years with the military if I spent it in an air conditioned hospital in the US or Germany the entire time. Being 'in the thick of it' won't make me a better physician, but I'm sure it builds character. Not to mention I can say "When I was in (insert future battle here), we had to stop bleeding using nothing but camel hair!" whenever my civilian counterparts start whining.

 

[Superman1978]

I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying I want to go out playing "army man" and get shot at. BUT I would like to be there to offer care for those who are getting shot at.

As an EM Doc, I hope my skills will be utilized to treat battlefield wounds and injuries; not at some rear echelon base preforming I&D's on abscesses.

And IMO, the best place for a EM doc won't be in the field with very limited supplies, etc but in a field hospital with more resources. Your knowledge probably wouldn't be a huge factor IF you don't have the appropriate tools to work with.
I don't blame you for not wanting to be a "fobbit". You want to earn your paycheck. Got it. I just don't see a physician being a huge asset without the tools that one needs. Who knows, I may be wrong.

Its the general opinion that "if you had any idea what you were truly asking, you wouldn't desire it." Yes, war is Hell. While I've never experienced it first hand I've done my fair share of talking to veterans and reading memoirs to know its not 'Call of Duty.'

Again, not to sound rude or condescending but talking to a veteran means little when it comes to 'war stories'. You get the story without the threat of imminent death that comes with it.

Being 'in the thick of it' won't make me a better physician, but I'm sure it builds character. Not to mention I can say "When I was in (insert future battle here), we had to stop bleeding using nothing but camel hair!" whenever my civilian counterparts start whining.

This seems...silly. I hesitate to say anything else because I dont' want to sound mean, condescending, arrogant, etc. But this is definitely a very naive sentiment. It may (and I stress MAY, not definitely) build character. More often, though, it will offer you nightmares, years of counseling, and a change in the person you are...often for the worse. You certainly don't want to do that for glorified bragging rights. If you want to build character, volunteer at a soup kitchen. Your posts seem to want the "glory of battle". Trust me, there is no glory in battle.

 

[pgg]

I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying I want to go out playing "army man" and get shot at. BUT I would like to be there to offer care for those who are getting shot at.

Understood - this motivates almost all of us.


But all the cool gunslinger schools that you MAY get to go to as a physician someday don't really prepare you for going to the place where you can generally do the most good: in the rear with the gear. No shame in being Dr. Fobbit.

There is a place, sometimes, for physicians to be relatively far forward. That place is usually some kind of mobile echelon 2 thing like the classic battalion aid station, but those are don't get used much these days. Invasions, yes; big operations like Fallujah, yes. Mature theaters like 2011 Afghanistan, not really.

The ONE time I was at one of those forward aid stations during a large multi-battalion, fast-moving, violent operation, I sat in my little BAS and watched helicopters fly all the casualties over my head to the FRSS 20 minutes away. I saw one injured Marine and a handful of locals. Next op, I arranged to stay in the rear at the FRSS, and took care of easily 10x as many patients.


Again, I think I understand what motivates you and I'm not knocking it in the least. Almost all of us here share that desire to take care of the privates and corporals doing the really dangerous work, hell, lots of us will cite that opportunity as the one big redeeming factor that makes military medicine life bearable.


Airborne school sounds like fun. There's an AR15 and AR10 on my coffee table right now waiting for me to clean them - they're great fun and I love shooting them, but if I'm ever holding a M4 while deployed something has gone horribly wrong. Likewise, you may have great fun going to SERE school, but if you're ever deliberately put in a position where you might need that training, something has gone horribly wrong.

There ARE a few physicians who work closely with special forces. Usually they're ex-SF guys who went to medical school, and then went home to the SF. JMHO, but that's not a place for our kind ...


The ultimate irony here is that eventually you'll wind up like the rest of us, weary as hell with all the CONUS-required officer-work, wishing they'd ease up and just let you be a doctor all the time. 😀

 

[NavyFP]

Understood - this motivates almost all of us.


But all the cool gunslinger schools that you MAY get to go to as a physician someday don't really prepare you for going to the place where you can generally do the most good: in the rear with the gear. No shame in being Dr. Fobbit.

There is a place, sometimes, for physicians to be relatively far forward. That place is usually some kind of mobile echelon 2 thing like the classic battalion aid station, but those are don't get used much these days. Invasions, yes; big operations like Fallujah, yes. Mature theaters like 2011 Afghanistan, not really.

The ONE time I was at one of those forward aid stations during a large multi-battalion, fast-moving, violent operation, I sat in my little BAS and watched helicopters fly all the casualties over my head to the FRSS 20 minutes away. I saw one injured Marine and a handful of locals. Next op, I arranged to stay in the rear at the FRSS, and took care of easily 10x as many patients.


Again, I think I understand what motivates you and I'm not knocking it in the least. Almost all of us here share that desire to take care of the privates and corporals doing the really dangerous work, hell, lots of us will cite that opportunity as the one big redeeming factor that makes military medicine life bearable.


Airborne school sounds like fun. There's an AR15 and AR10 on my coffee table right now waiting for me to clean them - they're great fun and I love shooting them, but if I'm ever holding a M4 while deployed something has gone horribly wrong. Likewise, you may have great fun going to SERE school, but if you're ever deliberately put in a position where you might need that training, something has gone horribly wrong.

There ARE a few physicians who work closely with special forces. Usually they're ex-SF guys who went to medical school, and then went home to the SF. JMHO, but that's not a place for our kind ...


The ultimate irony here is that eventually you'll wind up like the rest of us, weary as hell with all the CONUS-required officer-work, wishing they'd ease up and just let you be a doctor all the time. 😀

At least you got an M4, I lugging around an M16A4. I call it my musket.

I agree that in the more mature battle zone docs are Fobbits (people who stay inside the wire at bases and never/rarely leave). I would give my docs a severe butt chewing if they were out patroling. I have had to have arguements with line guys about keeping my corpsman out of gun turrets.

It is a simple matter of proper application of medical personnel and scarcity of resources. There is only one corpsman for every 10-15 trigger pullers. I can't afford to lose them unnecessarily.

 

[AF M4]

To the OP, all of the above is great advice. If you've got the ability to be a doc, go be a doc. Just focus on fulfilling your own potential, and believe me, the world will provide you with all sorts of opportunities to prove yourself.

 

[halethsonofhama]

The ONE time I was at one of those forward aid stations during a large multi-battalion, fast-moving, violent operation, I sat in my little BAS and watched helicopters fly all the casualties over my head to the FRSS 20 minutes away. I saw one injured Marine and a handful of locals. Next op, I arranged to stay in the rear at the FRSS, and took care of easily 10x as many patients.

I guess my understanding of where combat casualties go was wrong. I'd like to be where those choppers are going.

....now the kid in me is thinking... 'do they have doctors on those choppers or just the medics?'

 

[AF M4]

I guess my understanding of where combat casualties go was wrong. I'd like to be where those choppers are going.

....now the kid in me is thinking... 'do they have doctors on those choppers or just the medics?'

Usually just medics. Like the Life Flights helicopters that every state in the US has. There are only a few things anyone can do inside the confined space of a helicopter: attempt an IV, bag a patient, etc. I.e., a relatively restricted amount of medical knowledge that can be taught in a few months to appropriate individuals.

Getting years of training to be an MD does not magically add to what can be accomplished inside of a helicopter or other austere conditions. Given those certain arenas and tools, a fully trained EM doctor's abilities will be basically indistinguishable from those of a 20 year old corpsman. However, given a fully staffed ER and hospital, a physician's ability to treat injured soldiers vastly exceeds that of a corpsman. Therefore, to do the most good, the docs must be kept in the place where their additional skills can be utilized.

No one really gives a crap if you're a badass door-kicker or not. If you ask your guys what they want, they'll take the nerdiest, wimpiest looking doc ever if he's the guy who worked his butt off in med school so that he would be ready to keep their injured buddy from dying. They'll take that guy a million times over the doc who can do a hundred pushups straight but can't treat toe fungus.

 

[halethsonofhama]

What about the doctor who refuses to treat toe fungus?

 

[Zulu451]

So the recruiters were not totally wrong, but they were not totally right either. Depending on your specialty there are opportunities for docs to support SF, and Ranger Batt's.

I know of several surgeons, ER's and FP's that work with special ops units. The stuff they do is pretty amazing. These are very rare billets that you have to have the right training. Surgery / ED / some FP. If you get one of these billets, you will definitely have the chance to go do airborne, air assault .... all the rambo stuff.

You will not be out there kicking down doors, but planning for and supporting their operations.

 

[Zulu451]

Usually just medics. Like the Life Flights helicopters that every state in the US has. There are only a few things anyone can do inside the confined space of a helicopter: attempt an IV, bag a patient, etc. I.e., a relatively restricted amount of medical knowledge that can be taught in a few months to appropriate individuals.

Getting years of training to be an MD does not magically add to what can be accomplished inside of a helicopter or other austere conditions. Given those certain arenas and tools, a fully trained EM doctor's abilities will be basically indistinguishable from those of a 20 year old corpsman. However, given a fully staffed ER and hospital, a physician's ability to treat injured soldiers vastly exceeds that of a corpsman. Therefore, to do the most good, the docs must be kept in the place where their additional skills can be utilized.

No one really gives a crap if you're a badass door-kicker or not. If you ask your guys what they want, they'll take the nerdiest, wimpiest looking doc ever if he's the guy who worked his butt off in med school so that he would be ready to keep their injured buddy from dying. They'll take that guy a million times over the doc who can do a hundred pushups straight but can't treat toe fungus.

Amen.... Good reply.

 

[Jtun84]

OP please use the search function. This question gets asked just about once a month.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying I want to go out playing "army man" and get shot at. BUT I would like to be there to offer care for those who are getting shot at.

As an EM Doc, I hope my skills will be utilized to treat battlefield wounds and injuries; not at some rear echelon base preforming I&D's on abscesses.

Its the general opinion that "if you had any idea what you were truly asking, you wouldn't desire it." Yes, war is Hell. While I've never experienced it first hand I've done my fair share of talking to veterans and reading memoirs to know its not 'Call of Duty.' However, with that said I would feel like I wouldn't get the full experience of my 8 years with the military if I spent it in an air conditioned hospital in the US or Germany the entire time. Being 'in the thick of it' won't make me a better physician, but I'm sure it builds character.

This is why I am interested in doing orthopedics (or general surgery, still deciding) in a Forward Surgical Team. Can anyone comment on their experience as part of a FST?

Not to mention I can say "When I was in (insert future battle here), we had to stop bleeding using nothing but camel hair!" whenever my civilian counterparts start whining.

This is silly.

 

[NavyFP]

Usually just medics. Like the Life Flights helicopters that every state in the US has. There are only a few things anyone can do inside the confined space of a helicopter: attempt an IV, bag a patient, etc. I.e., a relatively restricted amount of medical knowledge that can be taught in a few months to appropriate individuals.

Getting years of training to be an MD does not magically add to what can be accomplished inside of a helicopter or other austere conditions. Given those certain arenas and tools, a fully trained EM doctor's abilities will be basically indistinguishable from those of a 20 year old corpsman. However, given a fully staffed ER and hospital, a physician's ability to treat injured soldiers vastly exceeds that of a corpsman. Therefore, to do the most good, the docs must be kept in the place where their additional skills can be utilized.

No one really gives a crap if you're a badass door-kicker or not. If you ask your guys what they want, they'll take the nerdiest, wimpiest looking doc ever if he's the guy who worked his butt off in med school so that he would be ready to keep their injured buddy from dying. They'll take that guy a million times over the doc who can do a hundred pushups straight but can't treat toe fungus.

Not completely true. The Brits have a Chinook they have tricked out to be a flying ER. They put an ER doc on it, have blood products, warmers and can do full on preops for major trauma patients. By the time the bird lands, they are ready to roll into the OR.

 

[halethsonofhama]

Not completely true. The Brits have a Chinook they have tricked out to be a flying ER. They put an ER doc on it, have blood products, warmers and can do full on preops for major trauma patients. By the time the bird lands, they are ready to roll into the OR.

The Child ER Doc in me is spinning two stethoscopes in the air going "chooga! chooga! chooga! chooga!"

But that does sound like my dream job (If I didn't do MD I would have gone into flight)

 

[AF M4]

The Child ER Doc in me is spinning two stethoscopes in the air going "chooga! chooga! chooga! chooga!"

But that does sound like my dream job (If I didn't do MD I would have gone into flight)

Lol, yes, just shout a few "God save the Queen!"'s and you'll be all set.

 

[JEM2905]

I came across this website/post while researching something else and feel compelled to share an informed take with the OP- -

I'm not a doctor, or even on the path to becoming one; I am however an AD military officer with multiple SF deployments.

The child ER doctor you keep talking about makes me think you should consider temporarily tabling med-school in favor gaining medical and life experiences as an enlisted medic. 4 years after enlisting you'll have more stories and experiences than you currently think possible, you'll be the envy of all your new med-school friends, and (perhaps most importantly) you'll have matured immensely.

Based on your comments, I'm getting the impression you have a thirst for adventure, which is outstanding, however it's not likely to be quenched as a military physician; while you can always go from being a medic to being a doctor, the reverse is not the case.

Good luck.

 

[halethsonofhama]

Thanks JEM, Unfortunately I realized that a little late.

Out of HS I wanted to the whole military thing and came close to enlisting in the MC, but I thought I should do the responsible thing and keep long-term future in mind. I then decided to head to college so I can enter as an officer. Career plans changed and now I'm sitting pretty with med school starting in august and there isn't much I can do about that.