Rank Order List 2006

[fishmonger69]

Chiefs/attendings at programs that are not 'big name' are always gonna "piss all over" the fellows coming out of big name places. They gotta distinguish themselves from the 'big name' programs somehow and get you interested in coming to their program. If they are so "upset" with these fellows who according to them have two left hands growing out their ass, why do they accept them into their fellowship programs? Shouldn't they know better?

-- i don't disagree here. there are likely a fair number who are using these tactics to lure applicants, which is why as applicants we don't believe everything we here on the interview trail. however, when said info is brought up at multiple programs by multiple attendings in a multitude of positions (from chair to junior faculty), it merits thinking about.

regarding accepting fellows, i believe this is largely political. EVERY program i interviewed at made it a point to name drop as part of their "we place our residents at great, competitive fellowships" speech. ability in the OR is not nearly as important as who your chair is.

Surgery is a pretty tight knit community. Wouldn't you think if word on the street was that residents from prestigious program X can't operate, presitgious X chiefs would have trouble placing into top notch fellowships? Doesn't seem to be the case.

-- not necessarily, see above opinion that fellowship placement is largely political. the fact that so many applicants vie for the coveted 'big name' programs for their ability to place fellows tends to favor this method of thinking. of course, one might also think that the big name programs get better candidates, produce better research and better surgeons, who then go on to the better fellowships. i tend to think it's a bit of both.

Can you explain to me why residents from 'big name' programs place at good fellowships and, more importantly, go on to be leaders in their fileds despite their apparent lack of skill in the O.R.?

-- you're basically stating that one cannot be a chair/leader in the field unless a wonderful surgeon. i would argue that in this day and age, where the research dollar is mightier than the bard parker, OR ability is not all that important. truthfully, i believe some chairs and leaders are likely not as accomplished in the OR as other surgeons (especially general private practice guys who do nothing but cut all day).

This is not to say that I think that the name or reputation of a program is the end-all, be-all reason for choosing one residency over another. A look at my rank list should suffice in proving that I believe there are a host of other factors to consider. I just do not believe that the case load should be a major consideration, for the above reasons. One caveat though, if you don't have aspirations of being a leader in the field and are not considering fellowships but would be quite content being "the" community surgeon in a small town then case load is something you should give more weight to. There are plenty of applicants like this out there and plenty of programs for them. Thats the beauty of this system. There are tons of programs, each offering something a bit different, allowing each candidate to rank the ones most closely geared towards their personal goals and values.

-- i never meant to insinuate that you were placing 'name' as the prime factor for ranking. i believe those who do this do so at their own peril. my list ended up being quite different at the end of this process than i had ever thought, as the 'name' factor became less and less important. having said that, i ranked academic institutions based on ability to get a large numbers of cases, not only for surgical training but for patient management and breadth of pathology. i do aspire to be part of an academic institution as a 'surgical scientist' and think any opportunities afforder to me as a resident will only enhance my ability as a fellow and later as an attending.

as has been said, we're all different candidates each looking for the 'perfect' fit. i just wanted to weigh in with some info that i used in making my decision. in no way was i attempting to slander any programs, especially considering i didn't even look at programs outside of the southeast/midwest.

with that, here's my list

01. CMC
02. Indiana University
03. Univ Louisville
04. Baylor (Houston) - Academic
05. Baylor (Houston) - Clinical
06. WashU
07. Univ Arkansas
08. UTexas-Southwestern
09. UTenn-Memphis
10. MUSC

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Ergo]

ok.

1. Cincinnati
2. NYU
3-7 Non-surgical fields
8-13 Surgery

PM me if you want more info. i may be the only person on here that wants his #3 more then his 1 or 2.

No, youre not! I cant believe Ive found someone else who feels the same way. I put my favorite program, a long, intense program, third - and put two strong programs with better work-life balance first and second, even though I want the third.

 

[Ergo]

Understandable, since it seems you have some sort of weird internet stalker. Good luck with that.

It is very weird. Did you see that? I reaad all my old posts and cant figure out where they got a clue. Or maybe youre R.R.? (no, that poster seems like a dumb-a55. Couldnt be you.)

 

[scrappy]

Duke has a very specific vibe - you either like it or you don't. The residents are not poorly treated, but the training there is still more formal and heirarchical than at other programs. The interns and second years have to wear short coats and white pants for the first 2 years of the program.

omg... white pants?! the horror! not to mention potentially embarrassing for the females. (admittedly, this problem still exists for scrubs of other colors, but at least a number of different fluids--including water--can cause similar appearances initially.)

Residents MUST change out of scrubs when leaving the OR area - many programs say that this is a rule, Duke means it.

what is the reason for this rule? bc scrubs shouldn't be contaminated by the outside world? bc they look less professional?

 

[toxic-megacolon]

Notriously "malignant" something I've found to be totally untrue

Well Dr. Croce did call a resident "fat" during his roasting at M&M, made for a comical interview day, but don't personal insults infront of a huge group count as malignant?

 

[scrappy]

mods: please delete.

 

[scrappy]

mods: feel free to delete!

 

[scrappy]

how embarrassing! these didn't show up for me!

 

[scrappy]

that's how much i hate white pants.

 

[fishmonger69]

.

 

[happy puppet]

I wonder if the same arguments will erupt this year.....entertaining either way. However, I am bummed that there aren't more people who want to train in the midwest speaking up....

1. U of I metro
2. U of I
3. MSU Grand Rapids
4. Henry Ford
5. Beaumont
6. St. Joseph in Ann Arbor
7. Wayne State
8. Wright State
9. U if I Peoria
10. Northwestern

I agree with different strokes for different folks and I've felt like my modest ambitions have no place on SDN....so I dont post much. But I love my rank list and am proud of what I've done in med school.
Just want to be a good bread and butter surgeon and open my practice out in the middle of nowhere. I want to canoe home from work
Good luck to everyone!!!

hear, hear. But no one should feel intimidated about posting; not everyone gets interviews at Brigham. I didn't, and it didn't really bother me. We have nothing to prove to anyone at this point, anyway.

Now, off my soap box, scrubbed in, why did you rank Northwestern so low? I myself interviewed heavily in the Midwest and Northwestern was on my top 5.

Good luck all!

 

[fishmonger69]

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[fishmonger69]

.

 

[MediCane2006]

Hey there, everybody. I just want to say that I am very, very close to retiring to my couch with a bottle of Cuervo Gold to wait out the next two weeks. Anyway, here it is:

1. USF (categorical plastic surgery)
2. Thomas Jefferson
3. University of Miami JMH
4. Mount Sinai
5. UCSF East Bay
6. Temple
7. Baylor

Good luck to all my fellow surgeons-to-be...here's to hoping we all end up at our number 1's! (except for the guy/gal who wanted their #3)

 

[beefballs]

everybody belongs on sdn, thanks for sharing

 

[AlexRusso]

-- i never meant to insinuate that you were placing 'name' as the prime factor for ranking. i believe those who do this do so at their own peril.

I didn't think you were insinuating anything. What I meant by my "This is not to say that I think that the name or reputation of a program is the end-all, be-all reason for choosing one residency over another" statement, is that just because I was making a very strong argument for the "name" factor in that post it does not mean that I value name over anything else.

 

[JKP]

Alex,

You've got a great list... also wouldn't it be funny if you and Robot end up at the same place! Congratulations and looking forward to seeing where you guys match in a couple weeks!

 

[AlexRusso]

Alex,

You've got a great list... also wouldn't it be funny if you and Robot end up at the same place! Congratulations and looking forward to seeing where you guys match in a couple weeks!

Robot and I actually met on the interview trail and, despite what it may appear like on these boards, happened to get along . Though we disagree on some issues I still think we have similar goals (NYC!!) I don't take our disagrements to heart and I don't think Robot does either. I think it would be pretty cool if we matched at the same place, I really wouldn't mind. We'll see in two weeks.

 

[robotsonic]

Alex,

You've got a great list... also wouldn't it be funny if you and Robot end up at the same place! Congratulations and looking forward to seeing where you guys match in a couple weeks!

I actually really like Alex. As he said, we met at an interview. And we had actually emailed back and forth prior to the ROL deadline, so we knew weeks ago how the other felt about Cornell and Columbia. Nothing that I'm saying now will be a surprise to him. I think others are taking this debate more seriously than I am, and I hope Alex isn't taking it too seriously.

And I really think it would be great to match at the same place as Alex - unless of course he ends up at Cornell

 

[Frictionbaby]

Well Dr. Croce did call a resident "fat" during his roasting at M&M, made for a comical interview day, but don't personal insults infront of a huge group count as malignant?

Did Dr. Croce call the resident fat...or was the resident indeed fat? Dr. Croce is the Simon Cowell (?spelling...American Idol judge) of UT. He says and does a lot of things as a "devil's advocate" perhaps for the attention...but then again, a lot of people tune into American Idol every week to see what Simon will say next. Similarly, everyone comes to expect that Dr. Croce is going to say something "over the top" every time he speaks.

However, Dr. Croce is one of the main guys I was referring to. Granted, he probably doesn't give off the best first impression, and he was just as much of a beast during M&M during the day that I interviewed. Honestly, I don't think anyone that interviewed the same day that I interviewed at UT will rank UT highly based on what they saw during M&M, as they were probably mortified by how he acted. He is notoriously "hard" on residents on probably every M&M that I've ever been to.

However, I've operated with him on numerous occassions, and he is an amazingly skilled surgeon. He demands excellence from the residents in the way of surgical skills, and he is totally devoted to the overall outcome of the patients. If I had to have surgery, he's one of the ones I would want taking care of me!!

I'm certainly not suggesting that it was okay for him to act the way he did (or blatantly degrade someone for being fat), but not knowing who he was referring to or what the context of the situation was, I really can't comment on how he acted. I do know that he was one of my LOR writers, and he wrote one of the best recommendation letters I could have ever asked for (I got to read it while interviewing at Louisville, which is a plus for interviewing at Louisville first to all you M3s interested in surgery!!) He is also very personable and approachable, as I used to joke with him every time Notre Dame lost, especially the USC game (he's a huge Notre Dame fan...wears a championship ring on his finger from back in the day), and I personally made fun of his messy office during my interview...you learn to pick back at him because he picks at you often.

Every program probably has its "Dr. Croces" and we will learn to deal with them. Just have to take it all in stride...and have thick skin when it comes to such insults.

 

[scrappy]

OMG, i just had an anxiety attack (minus the intensity of attack--anxiety skirmish??) that i ranked the wrong baylor (houston). anyone know the program codes for both? of course, i'm going to go try to look it up now, but just in case...

on another note, i think alex and robotsonic have brought up a good issue about early operative experience v. late in academic programs (because i think it's an entirely different issue in community progs). i think i'll start a new thread for the debate.

edit: whew! i ranked the right one. no need for the info!

 

[SLUser11]

OMG, i just had an anxiety attack (minus the intensity of attack--anxiety skirmish??) that i ranked the wrong baylor (houston). anyone know the program codes for both? of course, i'm going to go try to look it up now, but just in case...

on another note, i think alex and robotsonic have brought up a good issue about early operative experience v. late in academic programs (because i think it's an entirely different issue in community progs). i think i'll start a new thread for the debate.

edit: whew! i ranked the right one. no need for the info!

That's a very solvable problem....I think asking for program codes in an SDN post is also probably the worst way to try and solve it......

On another note, I feel like I'm wading through multiple paragraphs of crap to get to any actual ROLs.....

 

[kbrown]

Does anybody remember the similar list from last year's seniors? I think it was entitled "care to share?" Anyway, it was very similar, including ROLs that seemed to belong to nobody but future Harvard Chairmen. It then deteriorated into:

Avg Guy: "these lists are BS,"
Future Chairman: "Nu-uh, you're jealous,"
Avg Guy: "I'd rather operate from day one!"
Future Chairman: "Are you saying they don't operate at MGH? At least I'll contribute something to the field of medicine!"
Avg Guy: "Are you saying I won't contribute anything? You suck!"
Future Chairman: "No.....YOU suck!"
The chairman ended up sounding condescending and the average guy sounded like a punk.....they both sounded pretty uninformed to me....


I wish I didn't enjoy the smilies so much...they're kind of emasculating.


I think there are a good deal of people who are qualified to train lots of different places and don't choose the academic powerhouses....but they're naturally going to be under-represented on the SDN. For me personally, I wanted a program near home (Omaha), with a strong surgical education, lots of OR, Great fellowship matches, and a decent lifestyle....we'll see if I get what I want.....


I wonder if the same arguments will erupt this year.....entertaining either way. However, I am bummed that there aren't more people who want to train in the midwest speaking up....

1. KU-Wichita
2. MSU/Grand Rapids
3. Good Samaritan-Cincinnati
4. KU- Kansas City
5. Missouri- Columbia
6. U Nebraska-Omaha
7. Med Coll Georgia-Augusta
8. Baylor U-Dallas
9. U Illinois-Chicago
10. SLU- St. Louis
11. OU- Tulsa
12. Mayo Clinic- Rochester
13. UMKC- Kansas City
14. MSU-Kalamazoo

I am glad to see someone giving love to Wichita-KU. I go to school there, great program, tons of operating experience and the residents are scary smart. They are very respected throughout the entire hospital and other residencies. I hope that you get your #1, it's a great program.

 

[luckherm1]

1. Mayo - Scottsdale
2. UAB
3. Mayo - Jax
4. Utah
5. Louisville
6. Scott & White
7. U Florida - Gainseville
8. Mizzou
9. Carolinas Medical Center
10. Virginia Mason
11. SLU
12. Iowa
13. Memorial - Savannah

 

[Tater]

In a few hours it will be 7/10 days left to go!

 

[TigerLily46]

I wonder if the same arguments will erupt this year.....entertaining either way. However, I am bummed that there aren't more people who want to train in the midwest speaking up....

1. U of I metro
2. U of I
3. MSU Grand Rapids
4. Henry Ford
5. Beaumont
6. St. Joseph in Ann Arbor
7. Wayne State
8. Wright State
9. U if I Peoria
10. Northwestern

I agree with different strokes for different folks and I've felt like my modest ambitions have no place on SDN....so I dont post much. But I love my rank list and am proud of what I've done in med school.
Just want to be a good bread and butter surgeon and open my practice out in the middle of nowhere. I want to canoe home from work
Good luck to everyone!!!

1.) Boston U
2.) University of Chicago
3.) Indiana
4.) Mount Sinai (NYC)
5.) Loyola
6.) Louisville
7.) Penn State
8.) Beaumont (Royal Oak, MI)
9.) New England Med/ Tufts
10.) Wayne State

I traveled around a lot. My folks live in Michigan, so I had to go to some programs there. I feel kinda like a loser because I don't have any of the MGH, Hopkins type places on my list. Where are the rest of the med students that aren't AOA and 250+ board scores?

 

[highball]

I fell ya, definitely no AOA or 250 here. I posted my list earlier. WE've got loyola and penn state in common.

 

[fishmonger69]

1.) Boston U
2.) University of Chicago
3.) Indiana
4.) Mount Sinai (NYC)
5.) Loyola
6.) Louisville
7.) Penn State
8.) Beaumont (Royal Oak, MI)
9.) New England Med/ Tufts
10.) Wayne State

I traveled around a lot. My folks live in Michigan, so I had to go to some programs there. I feel kinda like a loser because I don't have any of the MGH, Hopkins type places on my list. Where are the rest of the med students that aren't AOA and 250+ board scores?

be proud of your list. remember, most responses are self-selected meaning people who did interview at those programs would be the first to post their lists.

 

[toxic-megacolon]

I feel kinda like a loser because I don't have any of the MGH, Hopkins type places on my list.

You have several EXCELLENT programs on your list. U of C, Indiana, Mt. Sinai are very strong programs. I thought the fellowship placement of U of C was very impressive at my interview.

 

[Soon2BENT]

You have several EXCELLENT programs on your list. U of C, Indiana, Mt. Sinai are very strong programs. I thought the fellowship placement of U of C was very impressive at my interview.

did anyone else rank cincinnati?

 

[Tater]

did no one else rank cincinnati?

Heh, nevermind.

 

[scrubbedin]

hear, hear. But no one should feel intimidated about posting; not everyone gets interviews at Brigham. I didn't, and it didn't really bother me. We have nothing to prove to anyone at this point, anyway.

Now, off my soap box, scrubbed in, why did you rank Northwestern so low? I myself interviewed heavily in the Midwest and Northwestern was on my top 5.

Good luck all!

Northwestern just isnt my kind of place, and the merger with Mt. Sinai in Chicago (notoriously a weaker program) worried me a lot. Northwestern definitely has a little elitest attitude too - the undergrad, med school, law school, everywhere. It's really warrented in a lot of ways, but that really isn't me. And I want a community program. It only made my list at all because its in Chicago.

 

[scrubbedin]

1.) Boston U
2.) University of Chicago
3.) Indiana
4.) Mount Sinai (NYC)
5.) Loyola
6.) Louisville
7.) Penn State
8.) Beaumont (Royal Oak, MI)
9.) New England Med/ Tufts
10.) Wayne State

I traveled around a lot. My folks live in Michigan, so I had to go to some programs there. I feel kinda like a loser because I don't have any of the MGH, Hopkins type places on my list. Where are the rest of the med students that aren't AOA and 250+ board scores?

I'd love to hear from some people who interviewed in Detroit, and see what they did with those programs. I see that you, too, put Beaumont in front of Wayne. I rotated (not in surgery) at Beaumont and everyone - medicine, ob, er, rads residents - says it is a sweat shop with very poor teaching. Not that I expect to end up there anyway, but I struggled a lot with how to rank the programs in Detroit. I expect to practice in Detroit area someday (wife's family is there) and would like to know what people really think of the D-town area hospitals.

 

[scrubbedin]

Where are the rest of the med students that aren't AOA and 250+ board scores?

I'm so far from AOA, I'd like to start a new one...the ZAZ mediocre medical student fraternity.

 

[amarula]

I'm so far from AOA, I'd like to start a new one...the ZAZ mediocre medical student fraternity.

What about AOK?

 

[toxic-megacolon]

What about AOK?

I applied to that one, but they never got back to me. They even kept my application fee!

 

[Plastikos]

What about AOK?

What about making one for slackers? Im in.

 

[Cowboy11]

Wake Forest
UT Memphis
U of Kentucky
UAB
Louisville
U of Mississippi
UT Chatanooga

Cowboy

 

[TigerLily46]

I'd love to hear from some people who interviewed in Detroit, and see what they did with those programs. I see that you, too, put Beaumont in front of Wayne. I rotated (not in surgery) at Beaumont and everyone - medicine, ob, er, rads residents - says it is a sweat shop with very poor teaching. Not that I expect to end up there anyway, but I struggled a lot with how to rank the programs in Detroit. I expect to practice in Detroit area someday (wife's family is there) and would like to know what people really think of the D-town area hospitals.

Send me a personal message, if you like. I grew up in one of the suburbs of Detroit, and know a lot about the medical schools and residencies in Michigan. I also know the public perception of the hospitals there.

 

[TigerLily46]

I'm so far from AOA, I'd like to start a new one...the ZAZ mediocre medical student fraternity.

I'll take a piece of that action.

 

[TigerLily46]

You have several EXCELLENT programs on your list. U of C, Indiana, Mt. Sinai are very strong programs. I thought the fellowship placement of U of C was very impressive at my interview.

Aw, shucks. Thanks!

 

[Trip Fontaine]

Here is my rank list:

UCLA
Cornell
Mt. Sinai
U Washington
NYU
Columbia

Good luck to everybody.

 

[Plastikos]

Here is my rank list:

UCLA
Cornell
Mt. Sinai
U Washington
NYU
Columbia

Good luck to everybody.

Damn man, you only needed a florida school so you could have a shot at any corner of the states.

 

[amarula]

Just out of curiosity, why NYU over Columbia?

 

[AlexRusso]

Just out of curiosity, why NYU over Columbia?

I placed NYU over Columbia also. For one I just got a better feeling from the program/residents when I interviewed. The Chair and PD seem very involved in resident education. They have developed speicalized computer training modules for residents and have set up a very nice training lab and both showed up to interview day and were both very pleasant. At Columbia the Chair didn't show up for the interviews. The program director didn't seem as vested in resident education and the small skills lab was somewhere off in another building. There were very few residents there too (mostly lower levels and maybe 1 chief.) I also liked the fact that NYU has 3 hospitals. A univeristy/private one, a VA (the only program in the city to have this and I think this is a huuge plus) and Bellevue (a city hospital where, as a chief, you get tons of responcibilit.) All three hospitals are within blocks of each other thus living in the area gives you easy access to all the places you'd have to go. Columbia has three hospitals too but they do not have a city hospital the size of Bellevue (theirs is a small hospital at the tip of manhattan, its actually not even called a hospital but a pavillion b/c its tiny) and they do not have a VA. They have a university and a private hospital. The three hospitals are far from each other thus living by one still requires you to travel to the others. Not to mention one of them is in NJ and you basically need a car to get there. Finally, location, location, location. NYU hospitals are all in a nice part of the city where you would actually want to live. Columbia's main hospital as well as the Pavillion are not exactly in the best neighborhoods thus most residents live elsewhere and commute, adding at least an hour or so to an already long workday doesn't sound fun.

Columbia is a great program too, with strong clinical training, academics, research, and solid fellowship placement. I ranked them as well and would be happy to end up there. But comparing it to NYU I think NYU is better.

 

[robotsonic]

I placed NYU over Columbia also. For one I just got a better feeling from the program/residents when I interviewed. The Chair and PD seem very involved in resident education.

How ridiculous!

Ok, but seriously, I agree with most of what Alex said. NYU is in a better location and it's great that the hospitals are all within walking distance. And NYU residents enjoy a lot of independence and responsibility - they constantly brag that in their chief years the attending doesn't even come into the OR.

But I ranked Columbia over it for several reasons. I think the operating experience at Columbia is probably similar to that at NYU, but there is less of a "tough guy" attitude at Columbia. I'm not so sure that I like the fact that chief residents at NYU operate on their own without an attending even in the room. That means that the attending isn't teaching or helping you to improve your technique. If you were really skilled enough to operate on your own during PGY-5 without critiques from attendings, then surgery residency would only last 4 years.

Also, after speaking with some NYU medical students, I began to suspect that NYU's interview day wasn't completely accurate - not that the program is malignant, but just that the residents aren't as happy as they seemed. I'm pretty sensitive to this after seeing Cornell's interview day.

I went to a second look at Columbia and the residents seemed laid-back. Didn't do a second look at NYU but probably should have.

 

[amarula]

How ridiculous!

Ok, but seriously, I agree with most of what Alex said. NYU is in a better location and it's great that the hospitals are all within walking distance. And NYU residents enjoy a lot of independence and responsibility - they constantly brag that in their chief years the attending doesn't even come into the OR.

But I ranked Columbia over it for several reasons. I think the operating experience at Columbia is probably similar to that at NYU, but there is less of a "tough guy" attitude at Columbia. I'm not so sure that I like the fact that chief residents at NYU operate on their own without an attending even in the room. That means that the attending isn't teaching or helping you to improve your technique. If you were really skilled enough to operate on your own during PGY-5 without critiques from attendings, then surgery residency would only last 4 years.

Also, after speaking with some NYU medical students, I began to suspect that NYU's interview day wasn't completely accurate - not that the program is malignant, but just that the residents aren't as happy as they seemed. I'm pretty sensitive to this after seeing Cornell's interview day.

I went to a second look at Columbia and the residents seemed laid-back. Didn't do a second look at NYU but probably should have.

I completely agree with you.

 

[PoorMD]

[...]

7) Mt. Sinai

is Mt. Sinai a well known/respected academic center? I get the feeling it is in or near NYC, so maybe that attracts a certain type of general surgeon (personally I am attracted to big city training) sorry only MSI but I am interested!~

 

[pimpjuice]

Does anyone know anything about Mt Sinai Chicago or have comments regarding the program. what about the northwestern program. Please comment if you can. I am third year interested in these two programs in chicago.

 

[amarula]

is Mt. Sinai a well known/respected academic center? I get the feeling it is in or near NYC, so maybe that attracts a certain type of general surgeon (personally I am attracted to big city training) sorry only MSI but I am interested!~

It is NYC (Upper East/ Spanish Harlem) and it is well respected.