Rank Order List [2013-2014]

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DO student, 260s/270s. Location is very important to me - friends/family and whatnot.

1. Buffalo - I love the city and I love the people in it. Very solid program, strong didactics, friendly residents, plenty of volume and pathology, great PD.
2. Rochester - I am a big fan of UR in general. It's close to family. The PD at this program is the bomb.com. Easily the most enthusiastic PD I met, one of the friendliest, just got a great vibe from her. The program is super strong as well.
3. Indy -- completely blew me away. Judging solely on the strengths of the program and faculty, this would be my #1, but it's just too far from the people I love.
4. Summa Akron City -- a big surprise. Had trouble figuring out if I should rank them higher.
5. UPMC - of course a fantastic program. I just couldn't see myself in Pitt.
6. Case - UH
7. Case - metrohealth
8. Akron General - PD here is incredible, residents were great. Just didn't see myself there.
9. Allegheny General
10. EVMS
11. Emory - did a rotation, had a great experience, thought I would be ranking it higher until I thought about my priorities and where I fit in better.
 
I didnt match last year and scrambled into anesthesia but am reapplying- nervous enough about this to actually use this website. I didnt match last year bc of a bad SLOR (be careful people) and got rid of that for two new letters as well as doing research and publishing two papers this past summer. DO grad - 240's step 1 250's step 2 (630's on both comlex). this year seems better - crossing my fingers - wish me luck

1-downstate/kings county - I know the good and the bad as i currently work here and good training outways bad nursing plus i'm from NY
2-einstein (philly) - Dr. Carter is really nice. they do work alot of shifts for people who are afraid of that
3-Uconn - had a great feel plus helipad but it is hartford
4-metrohealth(cleveland) - seems like awesome training. they work alot as well and it is cleveland
5-metropolitan - PD is really nice and seems like they get the training however the ED needs to be redone bad
6-rochester - everyone seemed really friendly and is the only show in town - it is upstate NY tho
7-Hackensack - nice facilities but is new and not sure about trauma
8- alleghany - really nice place - don't really have any negatives but i'm ranking alot on gut feeling
9-rutgers - seems like a good place but interviews were weird there
10-st johns (detroit) - seems like a really good place with good training and PD was really nice - if it weren't detroit this would be higher
11-truman (KC) - seems like really good training but seems a little bible belt for me as their go-to restaurant that was recommended wasnt open on a sunday
12-york- trauma center that gets everything but small city keeps it lower down
13- geisinger - awesome place with really nice people - strictly a location thing as i will probably stay single for three more years living here
 
MD student, mid-tier state school. >260 x 2, Honors home/away, AOA, minimal research/ECs.

My list is a bit skewed in that my interest is in healthcare administration / policy / quality research, so I was looking for programs with a focus in those areas. I also have some geographic preferences.

Went on 18 and ranked all of them, but I'll only list my top 10.


1) MGH/BWH -- (+)Amazing research opportunities and resources. Boston is an awesome city and geographically my #1 location. Good split between "county" (MGH) and academic at BWH. Great acuity at both sites, esp. at MGH. Great faculty preceptors for pretty much anything you're interested in. Resources out the wazoo. (-) EM is definitely the red headed stepchild at both institutions. Some of the off service rotations seem +/- in terms of value. Rumor is that there's significant pushback on admissions.

2) Northwestern -- (+) Totally a surprise for me -- I didn't know much about the program and loved it. Really hard decision as this program would have been easily my #1, but I ultimately decided location was more important. Would be ecstatic to match here. Awesome policy/admin research, good acuity, awesome hospital. Lots of ICU rotations. Rumored to get good trauma since UChicago dropped their level 1 designation but also rotate at Cook County on trauma. PD is awesome. Great peds experience. Gary seems like a great rotation. (-) Not sure I'm sold on the trauma experience and diversity of patients at the home institution. Chicago is a great city but I'd prefer Boston.

3) Hopkins -- (+) PD was great. Busy ER with good acuity and great facilities since the new ED opened. Obviously a huge powerhouse for quality improvement research. Baltimore is actually a pretty cool city with cheap COL (esp compared to my 1/2) and close to DC. FAST 3+1 track seems like a great way to get some focused time in a mini-fellowship setting if you have a specific interest. (-) Shock Trauma eats up a lot of the trauma in B'more. UMEM is still probably the biggest show in town from an EM perspective. One of my attendings who was a fellow at Hopkins ~6 years ago said he feels like the residents didn't get enough experience managing multiple critical patients because the ER was slow due to overcrowding but that may be very different with the new facilities.

4) UMich -- (+) Maybe the best variety of clinical sites I saw on the trail -- big academic (UM), busy community (St. Joe's), and county (Flint). Admin track available but seemed a bit light compared to what the others had to offer, esp. my #1/2. COL in Ann Arbor is very reasonable but it feels like a big college town. Walked away from this interview loving it but the more I thought about it the more I realized Ann Arbor would be a tough sell for myself and the SO. Lots of ICU months and building an in-ED ICU at UM. (-) Ann Arbor, admin track seemed a little short on substance.

5) Vanderbilt
6) Brown
7) UPenn
8) BMC
9) Cinci
10) Utah

I would be happy to be anywhere on my rank list. Good luck to everyone in 3 weeks!
 
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240/250, top 10 US MD, EM grades H/H. Applied to 38, offers from 30, interviewed at 16, ranking 15.

Top 5:

1) St. Luke's-Roosevelt: Clinical training and academics that go toe-to-toe with NYC's best 4-year programs. Emphasis on wellness and critical care months. Efficient, thoughtful curriculum. No floor month bs. Trauma month at Shock. One of the best 3-year programs in the country. Happy residents, supportive administration, awesome PD and faculty. Let Rome in Tiber melt and the wide arch of the ranged empire fall. Here is my space.

2) Mt. Sinai: Great vibe on interview day. Solid clinically, diverse sites, great research/academic backing, funding for elective opportunities. Happy residents, really like the PD. Long commute between sites and 4th year are the only negatives.

3) NYU: Opportunity to train at Bellevue. Great academics, and solid clinically. Gut feeling wasn't quite as good from interview day, so it's lower than Sinai, but this is a great program and obviously I'd be thrilled to train here.

4) BWH/MGH: An embarrassment of resources. Faculty, money, research, connections. You name it, they have it. Had a great interview day and would be thrilled to match, but just prefer NYC to Boston.

5) Temple: County experience without the county chip on the shoulder. Great clinical training, underserved population, tons of trauma, good U/S, wellness emphasis, no floors. Great feeling on interview day, just prefer NYC to Philly. If it were in NYC, would probably be #2.

Best of luck to everyone!
 
250's, top 10 US MD, honors in 3 EM rotations, lots of EC's and research. Applied 20, received 20, Interviewed at 15, ranking 13.

I could elaborate on the training pro/cons at each place but really, to me, every program seemed to have a valid approach to resident education. At the end of the day, it came down to my (and SO's) gut feeling about social fit and geography.

1) Carolinas: got that "warm fuzzy" feeling. Residents are clearly a cohesive bunch. Felt very confident that SO would be included socially. Really liked how humanistic the Chair and PD were when they spoke about patients. Western NC is amazing. Tons of places to bike, climb, water ski, paddle/raft, hike... Easy access to Lake Norman, Pisgah National Forest, Asheville… given the COL, SO and I felt that we'd actually be able to do more "cool" things in our free time in NC than in SF. Closer to friends and family.

2) Highland: most accomplished group of residents I met on the trail. However at the pre-interview happy hour, the group as a whole felt a little less my style socially. Was a tough call between here and CMC. At the end of the day, gut feeling won.

3) Northwestern: tied with Carolinas for my favorite PD of the trail. What a resident advocate! This was the program that suffered the most from incompatible geography. Say what you will about 72 and fluorescent; to me, negative temps are only ok if you're skiing in Montana 😉

4) Vanderbilt: loved the Chair, didn't click with PD. Clear emphasis on didactic education but... I got the sense that you just learn how to do it "the Vanderbilt way". That said, their 10 commandments are gold. Nashville was fun for a night out but neighborhoods overall disappointed me and SO.

In alphabetical order, the rest: Brown, Cooper, Denver, GW, Pitt, Temple, UCSF, UNC, UPenn

I feel confident that I would be well trained and happy anywhere I ranked 🙂
 
I enjoy seeing these, so may as well contribute mine even if it gives me away somewhat.

DO student from a newer DO school. upper 230's/lower 250's, 620's/580's (didn't expect that but all I used was UWorld and COMLEX is nothing like that). Top quartile of class, school is P/F, 2 aways, one was P/F was told I got HP on other. No EC's or leadership in med school to speak of, too busy with playing outside and family. Somewhat non-trad without any real career before hand, just random jobs. Family was a big deal in my ROL, will be starting residency with 3 young kids. Also most, if not all, of my ranking went off "gut feeling" rather than comparing numbers and what not.

Applied to 40-50ish, invited on 17, waitlisted 1. step/level 2 were taken late and scores were not available until late November (i think i got one waitlist offer or invite after scores were finally back) due to a medical urgency with my SO that forced me to delay. not too worried about interviews that might have been as i enjoyed interviewing where i did and would be happy anywhere.

1-UIC-Peoria: my goal is to be a community physician and I felt like this place would prepare me perfectly for that. got along great with everybody, awesome facilities/benefits, loved the limited number of residencies there, seemed like great pathology and teaching, didn't mind the town as it had everything my family would need or want to do. Also helped that there is some mountain biking in the area believe it or not.
2-SUMMA: worked with a good number of EP's that went here. they were great and talked the program up a ton. thought the curriculum was outstanding, great facilities/benefits, again my family would have everything they needed here.
3-Western Michingan: spent a month there and loved it. like every where else there are things I didn't like as much (ie ortho), but the ICU and EMS experiences, along with interactions I had during my rotation made this a place I would be thrilled to end up at. based on my month there I would probably play a lot of golf if we match here.
4-Geisinger: this was the program constantly in the back of my mind. Had them lower then higher then lower then higher several times until I felt good about it. had great interactions with everybody there, some reservations about acuity/volume, but was of course reassured by many (not all at the program) thAat training was excellent. growing up in the 49th state i didn't mind the location and it would be a great place to introduce my kids to some of my hobbies and passions as they get older.
5-York: almost had at #4. Felt really good while there, liked the strong sense of becoming the best community program. Great wilderness medicine experiences to be had. No real reservations, except maybe the ED remodeling which seemed well thought out and shouldn't affect much.
6-Central MI: yeah it's Saginaw. Not the greatest of towns, but a lot of cities with residencies aren't that great. Thought the program would prepare me extremely well to go back to the community. No real reason not to like it, this is just where it felt right. Know a doc that went here and enjoyed it, thought his training was superb.
7-UNLV: Vegas is too hot for me. Kept wanting to like this program more, tons of sick people, unparalleled event medicine (Burning Man, NASCAR, concerts, marathons, etc.), best wilderness medicine experience I encountered. Wasn't sold on the patient population but if I end up here I would be thrilled.
8-Baystate/TUFTS: excellent program, fun residents and PD. Interesting but great get together playing pool the night before. I've had worse winters. Great clinical experience and opportunities for fellowships (graduating residents get first pick, its yours to lose basically). It would be fun to end up here.
9-Mercy St Vincent: flight program seemed amazing. thought it weird that the PD was there that day at didactics but didn't really stop by or participate in the interview day/process. Lack of orientation month is unappealing but completely workable.
10-Rochester: this PD was unforgettable, so much energy and enthusiasm. appreciated the format of their interview day more than anywhere else as it was very thought out and they had read my application and had multiple questions for me regarding it. I have never spent any time in upstate NY, but Rochester seemed nice, and I know my family would enjoy it, tons of outdoor activities nearby plus it has Wegman's.
11-14 in alphabetical order:
Lehigh Valley: rotated here. appreciated the rotation and learned a good deal. wasn't a fan of 4 yrs and didn't appreciate how long it took my SLOE to come back, my 2nd rotation had it done almost instantly but this one still wasn't in by the time apps were downloaded and invites were happening.
Penn State: Hershey seemed nice, wife and kids would probably enjoy. just didn't enjoy it as much as others. also after answering my first interview question of the day the interviewer said i should check out another nearby program as it would fit me great. kind of threw me off.
UKMC-Truman: great faculty, Kansas City was nice and I actually spent a few extra days just hanging out in the area and enjoyed it. my goal is to move back west and be a community EP and simply wanted a less community like program and one that might better reflect my hopeful future patient population.
University of Nebraska: wow, never had i been to a restaurant in a hospital with waiters/waitresses where i could feel inclined to tip. great facilities and Omaha seemed like a great area, one of my parents lived there for a while and spoke fondly of it. wasn't a fan of some of the curriculum and didn't click too well with some of the residents I met. this may have to do with the fact that i would rather be outside on a weekend instead of watching college football or any sport for that matter.

All in all would be happy anywhere and just hope to match. i feel like i did a decent enough job in my interviews but of course had some that didn't go all that well. good luck to everyone, keep the list coming.
 
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Midwesterner looking midwest and south. I consider myself a bit more real world “average” than the “SDN average”.

Unranked P/F school. Step 1: 220s. Step 2: 250s. Honored away rotation. Lots of leadership on the resume. Applied to 36. Invites from 23. Interviewed at 15


1. Indiana: Loved the residents here. PD was very excited about the program and seemed to really value resident input. Really strong program overall and I feel like I’d come out prepared for whatever. Probably a reach but match favors the applicant.

2. UTSW-Austin: Residents really gave me the warm fuzzies. New program which offers some great opportunities to shape the program but also a little scary because there’s no previous grads or reputation other than the UTSW reputation in general. Austin in an amazing city and that warm weather is looking really good right about now.

3. Iowa – Really friendly residents and faculty who really seem to enjoy being together. Lots of pathology from across the state gets flown in. Really like the college town feel and low cost of living. By far the most convenient for the SO.

4. WashU- really wasn’t looking for a 4 year program but fell in love with the faculty who seem really invested in the program. Would open doors to academic jobs in the future. STL is another great city. Downsides include 3 admittedly useless floor months and obviously that 4th year.

5. U Wisconsin – Really loved how passionate the department chair was about making the program the best it could be. Loved the college town feel. Downsides: they’re really into flight and that’s not really my thing. Also felt like I wanted to LOVE the program but left without getting quite the warm fuzzies I got elsewhere

6. Advocate Christ- trauma heavy program that would leave me prepared for anything. Seemed like a close-knit group of faculty and residents. Downsides: high cost of living and long commutes if you live downtown like most residents seem to do.

7. UIC-Peoria- really liked the program and probably would have ranked it top 5 but the location is just less than ideal for the significant other


Honorable mention (in alphabeticalish order): Emory, Kalamazoo, Kansas, Mayo, MCW, SIU, SLU, UMKC
 
Stats: 230s/250s steps, middle of the road med school P/F, no AOA available, Honors/HP 50/50 3rd year clerkships, Honors 2 EM clerkships, 1 HP

Harbor-UCLA: sick county patients, great reputation, amazing faculty, near the beach, close to family/where I grew up, - 4 year, resident salary

UC Davis: + proximity to outdoors, laid-back group of residents, great conferences, close to most of immediate family, 3 year, - Sacramento is kind of a meh

Maricopa: + fun group of residents, residents have great relationship with attendings, TWu/Eric Katz are phenomenal people, sick county patients, work hard/play hard mentality, the beautiful AZ desert landscape, - other residencies in the hospital, Phoenix summers (Oh, lawd!)

Advocate Christ: Great interview day with faculty that really seem to care, gets majority South Chicago trauma, light shift schedule, residents seemed really cool, PD was really nice and easy to talk to, - single training site, location in suburbs

Emory: + county/academic mix, loved the residents, heavily NIH funded (if you’re into that kind of thing), - had a really bad interview experience here and it somewhat turned me off towards the program

UW: + awesome city, enthusiastic faculty who came on specifically to start residency, seems to be pretty streamlined for new program, great teaching opportunities, - snooty feel, newness of program

BMC: “County with resources”, great residents, - 4 year, no one moonlights (not sure why), high cost of living, far from family

Loma Linda: + international support, splits time between LLU/Riverside County, 3 year CA program, - inland empire

Baylor: + county/academic mix, leadership opportunities, cool residents, - Houston

Denver: + great clinical training, outdoorsy city, really impressed with their conference, great teaching curriculum, - 4 year combined with many shifts, had one interviewer that really just rubbed me the wrong way

In the end, family was a big factor in my top 1 and 2. Would be ecstatic to be at top 5 and happy to be anywhere in top 10. Ranked 4 other programs that were not right for me for various reasons (solid programs, just not for me)

Best of luck to all in the match!
 
I think I’m going to end up being the outlier that doesn’t fit in with my stats and list but whatever… it is what it is. I’m definitely not on the SDN par… DO student, ~210 step 1, ~230 Step 2. Non traditional (ie, older, lol) student with lots of EMS experience prior to med school. Middle of the road grade wise first 2 yrs, all honors 3rd yr except one rotation with a preceptor who only gives “Pass” no matter what. Did a bunch of auditions, H in all but one (damn final test) and told SLOEs were very good. Applied broadly(seriously) and interviewed at 17.

1. UIC- Loved the history and also the possibilities with this program. Rotated at one of their sites and seriously enjoyed it probably more than just about any rotation I went on. Attendings are all bright and personable, all the residents were chill and fun to talk to/work with, and overall feel just "felt like home". APD is my new favorite person in the program after interview day... that guy is totally kick ass! Was initially #3 but moved up at the last minute due to CC curriculum, better fit for my interests for fellowship opportunities, gut feel, and opportunities for my SO.

2. Baystate- This was #1 all season til the last minute. LOVE the PD, faculty, and all the residents. New ED was simply awesome (it’s the size of 2 freakin football fields!!), curriculum and schedule is focused on resident wellness (loved this), and despite what people said, I actually was quite impressed by the area. I have heard nothing but how terrible Springfield is but I guess those people have never been anywhere REALLY bad because it’s not really bad at all and there are some awesome places to live very near (Longmeadow, Northampton). In the end this was all about the future… if everything was even between Baystate and UIC it would be Baystate, I loved it that much. The only thing I couldn’t get past is that I think I will get better fellowship opportunities and name recognition coming out of UIC than I would from Baystate and since I’d like to keep a career in academics open that was the major tipping point. Would not be AT ALL disappointed to end up here and was a massively difficult call bringing them to #2.

3. Resurrection- This one is mostly gut feel and location again for me. Seriously, the PD is one of the most interesting people I’ve come across this year. Fun, genuinely interesting, and a true resident advocate. Really liked the residents I met and just kinda got a great feel for the place. Dropped down due to fellowship opportunities and the curriculum wasn’t quite as nice as the first two.

4. UTSW Dallas (Parkland)- Wow… I honestly will say that if this was not in Dallas and was somewhere I reallllly liked it would have been #1 by a landslide. Residents were awesome, PD is cool and Asst PD is truly one of the best people I’ve met on the trail… definitely no downsides there. Event med opportunities were unbelievable, it’s PARKLAND (which BTW is the busiest ED in the nation), and did I mention it’s awesome? Oh, it’s also in Dallas and that’s where the fatal flaw came in… not really wanting to do anywhere hot like Dallas and I think TX is an acquired taste that I just haven’t acquired. If I end up here I will be thrilled about the training but a bit bummed about the location.

5. Cook County- Fantastic program, great rep, awesome residents on the day I met, really cool (and smooth, lol) PD that seems to be very tuned to resident satisfaction. Newer facility wasn’t as bad as I had been led to believe and of course… the pts are sick, sick, sick! Trauma at Cook… hard to beat it. Downside came in the fact that it’s 4 yrs and that supposedly there is some unnecessary scut (pushing pts to CT or upstairs) simply due to nursing issues. Again, I would be thrilled here and it’s one of few places I saw that the 4th yr really seemed to be “acceptable” due to how they had the curriculum set up (although I could do without the floor months).

6. Buffalo- I was really surprised by this program honestly. I really think it doesn’t get the favor it should simply because it’s in Buffalo but I really liked everything about the program and didn’t mind Buffalo that much eventhough it was like 5 degrees when I got there (it was a warm day). PD seems mild mannered and to be a truly awesome guy. Definitely impressed.

7. Western Michigan (Kalamazoo)- Again, great program that I felt really at home at. HUGE class and lots of friendly characters and cool people. PD is probably considered THE man among old school PDs now that Chisholm stepped down at IU and he is truly a student advocate and great person. Dings for the program mostly aren’t a fault of theirs and really actually are a plus in a way… in MI, DOs have to complete an AOA approved internship year in order to be licensed and at W. Mich they’ve actually built in an option where DOs can accomplish this without having to take an extra year to complete the internship. Problem is that you have to give up all your electives in residency to be able to accommodate. Again, great that they do this which is a plus but if I don’t have to give up the electives I don’t want to have to.

8. Univ. Of Missouri- Really nice program that will be a hit in a few years. Loved the enthusiasm of the faculty and what ideas they had set up. Downside for me was 2 fold… opportunities for the SO and the main ED’s volume was LOW… like I had to check and make sure it qualified type low. Wasn’t sure that was going to work or not and didn’t want to be part of 0.5 pph days for a large part of residency due to lack of flow. Probably will be a non issue but still stuck out to me plus the always present “new program” issues that everyone always mentions.

9. JPS- Man, this place really was a great little program that is sure to be an up and coming name in the future. Really liked the PD and reallllly got along with him but APD interview was really awkward. Didn’t ask much about me and went to the “so do you have any questions for me?” line about 3-4 min in and when I did ask a question he pretty much confabulated for 2-3 minutes before ending with “Yeah, but that’s a really hard question to answer honestly”. Happened on like 3 or 4 softball type questions in a row before I finally gave up. Again, kinda like Parkland, TX kinda kills this one for me or else it would be higher.

10. Hackensack- I dunno… good and bad feelings here. Loved the idea of the program and they seem to have something in the works that will be awesome in the future but I think it might be a bit too early. PD was awesome but chair was just flat out odd to me. Like the kind of older guy in his 50-60s you might run into in a club in Vegas at 3 AM kinda odd. He had music on the entire interview I was in with him to the volume that I missed some things he said cuz I could hear him over it. Just odd. Anyways, was really turned on by the idea that they do a lot of work with the NY Giants until they revealed that they actually can’t have residents do any work with the Giants “cuz it’s an NFL rule”. Umm, huh? Hello Indy? Hello Buffalo?

The rest…

11. MCW- awesome facilities, some awesome faculty, weird resident vibe

12. USF- I wanted to like this, I really did, but when the PD doesn’t make eye contact during your interview and had an awkward interview with the APD… yeah, didn’t fare too well. Clincher was when they tried to sell us on the idea that they work right at the national average for hrs worked a month… at240. Do the math… that is TWENTY 12s or some combination of 12s and 10s that leaves you well over the 20 shift per month mark.

13. York- It’s York PA… should be ‘nuff said. People who say Springfield MA (Baystate) is bad should come see York! 😉 Some attendings are AWESOME, some residents are awesome, but some were truly the type I could see myself choking the life out of by the end of 3 yrs.

14. Albany- Awesome PD and APD (and really faculty on the whole that I met). Residents… mmmm… just not my type I guess. Nice, but not my type. ED seemed really old and unimpressive and Albany is really not the best place I can think to live.

15-17. in no particular order, Central Michigan, Staten Island, Mercy St. Vincent (Toledo).
 
Midwest top 40 school. 240's/260's, HP most 3rd year, 2 H's. H in home EM, HP in away. A little research, some decent involvement in some other stuff, lot of sports involvements. Location was big for me - only applied to cities I had a strong enough desire to live in. In the end, most of my list came down to a decent combo of how I felt during the interview/"fit" as well as location personal desirability. I really started to prefer four year programs - for the most part, I felt the 3rd years just didn't compare with 4th year residents, and I want to be as strong clinically as possible while giving myself a great shot to get into academics if that's what I start leaning towards.

1)Carolinas - obviously a strong program, the only 3 year I placed high; got great vibes from this place, I love Charlotte and I'm pretty big on outdoor activities and would prefer somewhere with less of a winter than I've had the last few years. I've accepted this is a long shot, but hey might as well try!

2) Northwestern - loved this place - strong contender for #1. Really the only reason I bumped it was location - I'd prefer to get away from the vortex's. But the PD really sold this place like you wouldn't believe, and he had me loving it.

3) University of Washington - Seattle is awesome, the program is up and coming but is still relatively new - the fact that this program is only 3 years old did not bother me too much, but I was more bothered by the recency of the ED weirdness i.e. first EM board certified physicians didn't show up here until like 2005; like everyone else says, people are awesome, trauma catchment is ridiculous, and UW is a fantastic name in itself

4) Cincinnati - loved this place way more than I thought I would - they are one of the best for good reasons. Thought the faculty was top notch, PD was a great guy, they do flight training the right way. Only downside is Cinci, which isn't that bad of a place but I'm looking to get to different places I guess

5) Denver - super intense place, but the 4th year residents are unbelievably well prepared. When I saw intense, I don't mean malignant, but just very very hard working and take pride in their work ethic (not a bad thing, just not as laid back as most places can be); however, I love CO, and would love to be closer to family there

6) UNC - loved the 2 hospital system, I think they compliment each other very well; great emphasis on education and wellness. I would've put it higher but I'd rather live in Charlotte than Raleigh if I'm in the Carolinas

7) UCSF - another great program I was surprised by, relatively new, but with new Children's hospital AND new county hospital being built within the next year or two. Only downside is high COL and hard to find housing here

Bottom 9 in no particular order (just didn't feel like typing out more info on each program - sorry!)

Advocate
Ohio State
UCSD
Indiana
UTSW - Austin
UPMC
UTSW
Georgetown
Resurrection
 
1. Vanderbilt: (+) great didactics and orientation month, really clicked with residents and faculty, attending bonuses depend on resident evals (this was big for me) (-) residents do fast track, obs boarded in ED

2. University of Massachusetts: (+)amazing ultrasound, great evaluation system, attending access to main hospital shifts depends on resident evals (again, big deal for me), really liked faculty and residents (-) admitting sounds like a cluster, switching to EMR (ibex) this Spring

3. Wake Forest: (+) huge focus on ED and critical care time, 3 elective months, no floor months (-) didn’t click as well with the residents here as with top 2

4. University of Pittsburgh: (+) Jeep experience sounds like great training without the exclusive EMS-type-only vibe I expected to get, multiple practice settings, great clinical training (-) no integrated peds

5. CW-MetroHealt: (+) incredible county + academic combination, great clinical training, big US focus (-) residents may be overworked, faculty were cold and uninterested

6. Virginia Tech-Carilion: (+) lots of ortho and critical care, enthusiastic young faculty, academic + rural ED (-) new program, peds month, other residencies in hospital are weaker

7. University of North Carolina: (+) concentration tracks, academic + county-type (-) med and surg floor months, at least one attending who shouldn’t be allowed to work with other people (ever)

8. Virginia Commonwealth: (+) high volume and acuity, tracks, really sold me on their city in a way no other program did (-) administrative instability, peds and med floors

9. University of Virginia: (+) scribes (!), tracks (-) big focus on off-service rotations, OB and peds EM in Richmond

10. University of Florida: (+) 6 bed trauma/resus bay run by resident, scribes (-) no integrated peds

11. Eastern Virginia: (+) Multiple practice settings, right near da beach (-) inbred, tons of shifts, no integrated peds at main site, faculty seemed uninterested

12. Buffalo: (+) great tracks program, really liked residents and faculty (-) painful admission process, should be much higher on list if not for location

13. Rochester: (+) Critical care bay sounds great, incredibly supportive friendly PD, multiple sites (-) minimal integrated peds, location killed it

14. East Carolina: (+) no floors, integrated peds, little competition (-) didn’t click with residents at all, US sounds minimal

15. Dartmouth: (+) philosophy of deliberate education rather than apprenticeship, really liked faculty (-) new program, low volume, have to travel for trauma and a couple other rotations

16. SUNY Upstate (+) 3 elective months (-) didn’t get along with residents at all
 
Think that's everyone that has PM'ed me a list. If I've missed any, you see any typos, or there is any personal info I need to take down that I missed, please feel free to PM me.

Good luck all.
 
MD applicant, top 25 school, 240s/250s. One home rotation, two aways. H/HP/H. Highest priorities are strength of training, resources/project opportunities, brand. Applied to 30ish, offered all but two. Went on 14 interviews, ranked 12.

#1 Stanford:
(+) County + academic + community, all of which are robust! Amazing brand. Beautiful campus. Unlimited resources and opportunities for interdisciplinary projects. Fun residents. Lots of stuff to do on weekends.
(-) Long commute between sites. High COL. 12h shifts. No built-in scholarly tracks. 3 weeks vacation.

#2 UNC:
(+) Academic + county-like. Best PD on the trail in my opinion. Built-in scholarly tracks. Huge focus on wellness and pursuing outside projects. Incredibly warm feel to interview day. Nearby resources of Duke to pursue interdisciplinary stuff. Great COL. Gorgeous area of the country. Amazing moonlighting opportunities. 4 weeks vacation.
(-) Lower volume/acuity. Weaker brand.

#3 UPenn:
(+) Strongest peds I encountered with shifts at CHOP in which you run the pod. UPenn resources including Wharton. Strong brand. Cool resuscitation rotation. Down-to-earth and funny PD. Fun residents. 4 weeks vacation.
(-) Not so sure about patient volume being adequate. 4 years not completely justified with only 4 months of elective and some random throw-in rotations. No substantial alternate sites to HUP ED. Shorter 2 week orientation that starts in June.

#4 Cincinnati:
(+) County + academic + community. Best residents I met on the trail. PD is hilarious and a huge advocate. Tons of elective time (7 months I believe). Incredible adult training, and equally strong peds training. Great reputation. Incredible job placement. Warm faculty and program coordinator. Great COL. 4 weeks vacation.
(-) Location. Weaker brand.

#5 Duke:
(+) Incredibly dynamic and down-to-earth PD and clerkship director. Very strong off-service rotations. Incredible resources at Duke for interdisciplinary stuff. Great brand. Built-in scholarly tracks that are robust. Gorgeous area of the country. Great COL. Fun residents. 4 weeks vacation.
(-) Low-volume main ED. Very low-volume peds ED. Minimal county experience (Duke Regional). No community experience. Division of surgery. Significant faculty turnover with recent hires that I wasn't so sure of. Weak moonlighting.

Rest in no particular order: Hopkins, Vandy, UTSW, UChicago, Northwestern, Christiana, Temple, Pitt (UPMC), Yale
 
So I had a really tough time and changed my list a fair amount in the finals hours. Have some regrets about being so far from home (east coast), but I think it will be good for me. Would really be happy anywhere. It almost made me upset that I worked so hard in medical school 🙂. If I were to do it again....I probably would have had my friend change my password a week before....In the end I tailored my list to leaving the east coast and getting the best training possible.

250s on steps. half honors/half HP, an EM publication and an abstract presentation, some random ECs. Top 40 east coast medical school and no AOA, but top 1/3 of class.

1.) Highland--Fuzzies here. Loved the people here, the interview was a bit quirky, but I felt at home. Residents were great and night before was one of the best. I liked the idea of being unopposed more than other places. Felt that the schedule was not too grueling, never work 12s and the bay area seems like a great place to live. Watched the documentary "the waiting room" the day before....Negatives: wish they did more rotations at UCSF, off service is weaker than most, probably not a a ton of research opportunities.....In the end the reputation, lifestyle, and training opportunities here just seemed like the best combo! This place felt like a giant family and would make it easy for me to

2.) Denver--Initially had this lower. M&M blew me away. I had considered doing surgery for a long time and wasn't scared of the intensity. That being said there was definitely not a friendly vibe here. I do better when I work hard though and love to ski! Denver has so many great sites to rotate through, you have rocky mountain poison, and a ton of great research at your fingertips. I felt that if I ended up here I would probably have endless really really tough days, which is scary, but in the end I would be able to go anywhere and handle everything. Cons: Rumors of malignancy (didn't totally dissuade me as I like to work hard), nothing.....just intense vibe.

3.) Pitt--3 years! awesome academics! cool residents! great faculty! Felt this was the strongest three year I interviewed at. Had it all....diversity of sites, great fellowships, residents seemed to go anywhere, and the city itself is CHEAP and seemed pretty cool. I really liked the blue collar feel of it all and heard that the patient population was really grateful. Also, Pitt is a really great academic medical institution and thus all the other services will be strong too (and the med students!--easier teaching). EMS Jeep was also an added bonus. Warm and fuzzies....wish I ranked it 2 almost....Cons: Maybe a little weak on ultrasound in past years, but they addressed that and said they had reworked some things and hired more people, seemed very EMS focus, but they also addressed that and made it clear that they were throwing resources into becoming more well-rounded.

4.) USC/LAC--Initially had this #1 for awhile, but i eventually became too scared of LA itself to keep it there. As mentioned previously, probably the best clinical training. A ton of EMRAP people are here as well. The interview day was awesome, the residents were awesome. If I had family in the area it probably would have stayed #1
Cons: The traffic/commute time seemed awful. They also work a lot all 4 years and all 12 hours shifts. Honestly, I became scared that one day after a 12-14 hour shift I would fall asleep behind the wheel on my commute home. I will note that some of the residents said they lived closer than an hour away, but a lot live in Santa Monica.

5.) Cincy--Loved this one too. PD and chair were awesome. Obviously a well known place in our EM world. Great research, procedure numbers, and the flight experience is sweet. I felt the vibe to similar to pittsburgh, although I think cincy has a slight edge in reputation. In the end I put Pitt higher because I liked the residents better, the city better, and it was one less year. Con: The city and a lot of residents were married with kids (there were multiple kids at the night before). A bit sad I didn't put this one higher though....if I were married/had somebody coming with me....it might have been #1.

6.) Bellevue/NYU-- Bellevue is an institution and the oldest public hospital in the US. It would have been higher if I didn't want to get away from east coast (grew up in NYC area). Great tox here (Goldfrank is chair)....which is something I am interested in. Morning didactics are AWESOME. Teaching is awesome. Great reputation. Amazing residents, everybody was really fun, young, and hilarious. Cons: Not totally trauma heavy, but certainly enough to be comfortable....a lot of people get hit by buses/cabs, etc. They don't really have to do much ancillary work anymore as it has gotten much better, but it is still probably worse than some places. If manhattan were more knife/gun and I hadn't spent so much time in NYC then I might have put it #1

7.) UCSF--great and up and coming. Probably will be a top program in the next 10-20 years (if it's not already). Great diversity in sites, etc. Maybe the happiest residents I encountered on the trail. Cons: Heard from people that rotated here that besides SFGH, a lot of the other sites weren't that busy. They split trauma airways with anesthesia. The big thing was that the PD is leaving this year....that was enough to knock them down lower.

8) BWH/MGH--I loved this program when i interviewed. All my interviewers was awesome. Initially was gonna put it in top 3. I mean, it's harvard....you're gonna be a good doc coming out even from just the off-service. Get their pick of jobs, rotate through a bunch of sites. Amazing institution and the ability learn fromthe brightest people in our field
Cons: It's harvard....while they said it wasn't that bad...I just didn't want to get pooped on by surgery and medicine, didn't want to fight for procedures. Didn't like that a surgery resident sits in the ED waiting for traumas and belly pain.

9.) Hopkins--Same problems as mgh/bwh. Although I liked the residents a little bit better here. I felt the ED was just TOO NICE. I know this sounds crazy, but they each have their own physical room with dry walls and an LCD TV. Rotate through shock trauma, good peds experience.

10.) BIDMC--3 years, harvard, awesome. Wasn't feeling the interview day/residents as much. At this point in making my list I just started to put programs down.

11.) Maryland--Shock trauma, 3 years, great program, but I didn't gel with the residents.
12.) Mount Sinai (NYC)--Liked Bellevue better, definitely an up and coming program, although scott weingart is leaving (bummer)
13.) UC Davis--sacramento was the only problem here. Awesome training and 3 years.
14.) BMC--Great program. Didn't like the procedure month idea. Felt I would rather be at harvard and get those strong off-service rotations.
15.) Emory--Just had an bad interview experience here that left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Residents seemed happy and nice, i am sure the clinical training is fantastic, but the program is a bit big and I don't like the south.
 
Is this the year where people who are going into EM are not on SDN? Where are the lists!
 
fahimaz7 said:
Is this the year where people who are going into EM are not on SDN? Where are the lists!
Click to expand...
And are there any people who are not in the >240 club this year? I thought this was the EM thread, not Derm, LOL!!
 
Middle of the road med school, 240s, H/H on EM rotations.

1: BIDMC - Pro: 3 years, Boston. Excellent graduated responsibility. Really liked almost all of the attendings/residents I met. Red Sox games! Cons: Much less trauma than BMC.
2: Boston Medical Center - Pro: Awesome PD, got along well with the residents. County with resources. Boston. Cons: 4 years.
3: Downstate/Kings County - Pro: Amazing training. Great trauma. Residents all seem super happy. Cons: 4 years. Ancillary staff is horrible.
4: Maimonidies - Pro: got along well with the PD and residents. 3 years. Nice facilities. Fun events coverage. Great ancillary staff by NYC standards. Cons: Minimal trauma. Patient population not very diverse.
5: Beth Israel NYC - Pros: Location. Residents seem happy. 3 years. Cons: Didn't really click with the people, but didn't really have a problem either.
6: Presbyterian - Pros: Location. Name. Good mix of patient populations. Cons: A bit stuffy with the reputation. Columbia's ED super antiquated. Didn't click with residents.

7 through 10 in alphabetical order: LIJ, North Shore, Stony Brook, UConn
 
DO applicant, mid 500s on both level 1 and level 2, did not take USMLE. Applied to 25 programs all in the Northeast invited on 12 went on 10.

1.) Albany - (+) Awesome curriculum with tons of time in the ED and critical care. Amazing schedule (45 hours a week intern year and decreasing from there), 9 hour shifts with 1 hour overlap. Great pathology, it's the busiest trauma center in New York State. The PD is awesome and the program coordinator is probably the best in the country. Best sim lab I saw. Brand new Children's ED coming across the street and hundreds of millions of dollars being put into the area around the hospital. The kicker for me was I spent a month doing a rotation here and had the opportunity to work with about 14 different attendings and can't imagine a better group of attending to work under for 3 years.
(-) ED looks a bit dated and their EMR is a bit of a mess but I am told it will be improving soon

2.) Rochester - (+) Probably the most fun pre interview dinner I went on and they have an awesome group of residents. They have a great ED with a really cool critical care wing in the ED that residents get a ton of autonomy running. Awesome PD, big focus on resident wellness. Great research and fellowship opportunities
(-) Was told parking was a pain but that's about all I can come up with

3.) SUNY Upstate - (+) Awesome schedule, work all the Syracuse basketball games, great toxicology and international opportunities, another great PD
(-) Seems like there were some off service rotations the residents weren't crazy about, EDs are dated

4.) SUMMA Akron - (+) Biggest surprise for me on the trail, best ED (You can see the sun) and cafeteria I came across, amazing resident perks (IPad, food, tons of great events), residents really spoke highly of their attendings
(-) Location is a hard sell for me, didn't quite click with all the residents and interviewers

The rest of the best in alphabetical order

Allegheny, Buffalo, Baystate (Tufts), Penn State, UConn, Western Michigan
 
Now that the rank lists are in I think I don't need to PM and can post on my own. I am 220's/240's, bottom 1/4 of my class, HP on EM rotations, research not in EM, tons of volunteering. Am a midwesterner who wants to move south. Applied to 74, 14 invites, went to all of them and ranked all of them. Would cry on match day out of happiness with top 5. Top 7 would be super happy. Would be happy with top 11. Any will be OK. Might be a little unstable if I don't match.
1. Arizona South Campus: LOVE LOVE LOVE tucson, medical spanish, a program that really embraces international medicine, not super academic, ability to work at academic hospital and city hospital.
2. Scott&White: rotated here, loved it. small city but I am from a small city so I am OK with that. close to austin, everyone is so happy. Dr. Wieters is awesome.
3. San Antonio: It;s new but they are trying out some cool stuff. I liked how the faculty were obviously friends before starting the program and it seems they have been including the residents into their "club".
4. Baton Rogue: loved the laid-backness of everyone especially the Program Coordinator, did not like the low salary 44k wtf?
5. Vidant Health Greenville NC: Everyone seemed happy, nice that they put us in a hotel. went out with the residents. Very small city.
6. Bethlehem PA: Loved this program but really want to get out of the cold. Everyone was really awesome. Super laid-back. Residents seemed really cool.
7. Toledo OH - St. Vincent: really liked the cadaver lab thing. Feel like I would get really good training there. bummer that there are no perks (compared to Summa).
8. Omaha NE: was really tied with UW madison but I liked the fact that they actually have penetrating trauma.
9. UW Madison: like madison, really cold. like really really cold. close to family.
10. Ressurection: really liked program. intimidated to live in Chicago. close to family
11. Summa Akron: really awesome perks. beautiful hospital. just wasn't feeling the place.
12. Oklahoma: one 10 min interview. I spent $100s for that. really? probably can't study abroad. oh and they rejected me before giving me an interview. At least it is semi warm, but add in tornados and the weather part is no longer a positive
13. Columbia MO: really liked the people but am nervous about a brand new program.
14. SIU: don't want to live in springfield. the residents i talked to were easily offended by things that those at other residencies thought was funny. I would not make friends there. might just be a little too rough around the edges for these folks.
 
MD applicant. 240's. Top 1/4 of class. Midwest program. Lots of research/pubs. 2x EM rotations. Location is extremely important to me. Convinced after interviews that everyone who ever said reputation/perceived competitiveness is basically irrelevant was right - every program I saw was strong and I think anyone could do well at any of them. This is almost entirely about personal preference at this point. I would be well trained at any of these places. I just want to match.

1. Kansas - (+) Rapidly expanding ED/hospital system with strong residency and department leadership. Excellent vibe from residents. Strong desire to be in Kansas City. Lots of procedures/autonomy for residents. Large academic center that still acts as a major safety net. Plenty of moonlighting in KS and MO. Excellent peds hospital (Children's Mercy) affiliation. Cool community site in Lawrence. Excellent cost of living in the area. Awesome ultrasound experience (two US fellowship trained faculty + new ultrasound fellowship program). Best overall fit for me at a program that is stronger than many people give it credit for, presumably since it is still newish. 9 hour shifts for all years. (-) Floor month on medicine. Newish program without much of a reputation at this point. I suppose a lot of people would view KC as a negative (clearly not a negative for me). On the low end of resident salary.

2. Mayo - (+) Arguably the strongest community type program I saw. Excellent resources. Due to Mayo being capped for total residents (across all specialties) this program is smaller than it would otherwise be + Mayo's financial resources = great pay to "moonlight" covering uncovered shifts. Excellent infrastructure in Rochester (enclosed downtown area, shuttles, provided parking, access to gym, etc). Classic Midwestern feel at dinner with residents - this is a huge plus for me. Their EMR is better adapted to the ED than any I saw (designed by EM faculty with IT background). (-) Wife doesn't like the cold. Inkling of concern that presence of such strong specialty services infringes on ED autonomy. Not much trauma. As a side note, I had some concerns pre-interview that the association with Mayo clinic might cut back on the bread and butter EM stuff - between the assc. PD's presentation and running over the PD's trackboard from the night before those concerns were put to rest.

3. Cincinnati - (+) Flight program second to none. Graded autonomy that seems to push residents hard (especially as PGY2s), the PGY3s agree that this is well worth it. Lots and lots of resources for whatever you want to do (research, teaching, international, device development, etc). Chairman clearly 100% behind any projects residents want to do. Well established program = ED has a lot more control than at some places I saw. Residents extremely down to earth, I really enjoyed the dinner here. Reputation-wise, probably the strongest I interviewed at, for whatever that is worth. (-) Four years. Cincinnati is a long ways from family and not my ideal city anyway. Flight program is a requirement, which could be a downside for many.

4. WashU - (+) Excellent PD - very straight, to the point, no BS (I really appreciate their clarity regarding interview thank yous and post-interview communication nonsense). Strong hospital system. Lots of trauma (East St. Louis is not that far away...); a well respected hospital that sees everything due to location. Residents were all very cool people (subjective, I know, but I got a great vibe from all of the ones I met). (-) Only program where I got a hint of arrogance from leadership (one of the assc. PDs). A little bit overly "academic" for me. Would be a long commute to live where I would want to live near St. Louis. Apparently the hospital is still on mostly paper charts? Four years.

5. Nebraska - (+) PD similar to WashU's = no BS, very supportive of residents - my kind of person. Good cost of living. With changes to Creighton the trauma volumes and overall volumes are likely to increase significantly (already have largish volumes to begin with). Really liked the residents. (-) Not my ideal location. No ultrasound fellowship trained faculty. Interns still work 12s, PGY2/3 schedule setup still in limbo but will apparently not include 12s (nothing set in stone yet).

6. Illinois - Peoria - (+) Best physical ED facilities I saw, the layout was awesome. The sim center is just out of control, residents report it is a great addition to their training (run by an ED faculty, residents use it 1-2x per month, interdisciplinary sims, etc). Free food, all the time - per residents this was way more awesome than they anticipated. Option for lots of flight time. Lots of farm/hunting type trauma. Good cost of living. (-) Peoria is not my ideal location. Several residents who didn't seem quite sarcastic enough for me (not really a knock against them, just not my ideal fit). Seem to have less moonlighting opportunity.

7. Iowa - (+) Great location. Option for lots of flight time. Lots of options for research (fairly academic place overall). ED attendings have "super triage" so apparently admissions are very smooth. Cool residents. Lightest shift schedule I saw on the trail; if I remember right: PGY1/2/3 = 18/17/16 shifts, 8hrs. (-) Lightest shift schedule I saw on the trail to the point that it was a little bit concerning. Have multiple dedicated off service rotations that seem to be related to a lack of procedure opportunities during the ED months. Super triage sounds great, but I suspect admitting to services that can be a pain is a necessary skill for almost any job after residency...

8. UTSW - Dallas - (+) Parkland has massive volumes of everything. Brand new hospital in the next 2 years. Virtually all fellowships represented in the faculty. Event medicine opportunities were out of control. New Zealand? For two months? Paid for?! And I can take the family?!?!!! Tons of opportunity and connections with this program. (-) Dallas is excessively large for my taste. In general I think the program is just too big for me, I would prefer a smaller more tightly knit group - I am not as social as many of the residents here seemed to be. A little bit more "county" than I want. This is a great program that just isn't the perfect fit for me. I am glad I gave one of the Texas programs a look though.

Bottom three (alphabetized):

Missouri - (+) Very motivated group of faculty: core group is three from WashU + Dr. Borenstein (PD/chair), I suspect that this program is going places in the next five years. Clicked well with the faculty at dinner. Lots of new toys to go with the new program (ultrasound machines, revamping ED, new office/lounge, etc). Decent salary in a very low cost of living city. (-) Can't quite bring myself to rank a brand new program higher than this given how great all the other places were. On the low end of volume. I would guess that with the leadership they have, this will be a highly desirable program in the next few years and I wish them all the best. I would bet that if I match here, in a year I will think to myself, "self, why did you not rank them higher in the first place?".

Southern Illinois - (+) Lots of ICU time. Large catchment area. Plenty of moonlighting/autonomy. Small enough that they really seem to be responsive to resident feedback. (-) Just didn't click with the residents the way I did elsewhere; as the above poster stated they weren't as receptive to the type of humor that I like (maybe it's me?). Multiple interviewers seemed to get hung up on questions about what I like about Springfield... they asked so many times that I started to wonder if maybe there was something wrong with Springfield that should concern me? This was also the only place where I had an interview that was straight up awkward. Just a case of a program that I am sure is strong, but not the ideal fit for me.

Truman (UMKC) - (+) Well established program. Lots of trauma. Lots of autonomy, procedures, etc. Extremely positive impression of grads from this program I have worked with. (-) I only met 3 residents total and none of them seemed excited. At the dinner one of them told me about how he was disappointed he matched here and not somewhere else... awkward. At the interview lunch the only person who ate with us (~12 applicants) was the intern who did the tour... the staff/resident interviewing came in to get food and then left, which was also awkward. A little bit overly "county" for me. Clearly I want to be in Kansas City, so I really wanted to love this program. I would chalk it up to one flawed interview day... I have worked with enough grads of this program (who were all excellent) to assume that I would like it here if I matched.
 
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This one is for those of you who are below "real" average, and way below SDN average.

DO applicant. Step 1/2 210's/220's. P's>>HP>H for preclinical grades. Almost all HP with a smattering of H third year. EM aways HP/HP. Application strength lies in EC's.

Applied to ~130. 14 offers, attended 13, ranked 13. Glad that I applied everywhere rather than "broadly" because many of the interview offers seemed arbitrary as did several of the rejections. Gained about 5 interviews through contacting programs I hadn't heard from. Needs of SO helped mold the final list. Would be ecstatic with top 2, very happy with top 4, and quite content with top 7 but in the end I'll be psyched to be an EP.

1. University of New Mexico: Positives: friendly atmosphere, awesome PD/APD/chair, EP's in many leadership positions throughout the hospital and EM recognized as their strongest residency, generally recognized as a strong program, excellent job placement in the rocky/west region, emphasis on wellness/ giving enough time for reading/research/EC's outside of the ED, off-service rotations well thought out, older/tried and tested program, awesome mix of county and academic with some time spent in the community, cool resus bay with lots of autonomy/responsibility there as a senior, good set up of graduated responsibility overall, only Level 1 for the entire state. Lots of time in ED second and third year. Strong global health/disaster/wilderness and somewhat flight programs, living in New Mexico with hiking literally in albuquerque, Taos not far, tons of outdoorsy opportunities and the quirky vibe of ABQ. Works great for SO. Felt very fortunate to interview here.
Negatives: Lots of other residencies at UNM make me concerned that I won't get as many procedures as at a community program (don't get level I trauma's unless on trauma team), some issues with boarding which makes me wonder if the shorter hours in the ED may translate to not enough patient contact time.

2. Baystate/Tufts: Positives: Program wise this was my favorite as I realized on the trail that I preferred more of a community/county feel as a way to ensure I would get enough procedures and be comfortable with anything and everything after residency. Massive volume. Massive ED. Significant emphasis on wellness with no more than 45 hours/week spent in ED that seemed sufficient to residents since the volume was so large and you have so many EM rotations. Mid-level's see lots of lower acuity cases so even though the admission rate for the ED was ~25% the admission rate for residents was around 50%, which is crazy. Very sick patients. Friendly people. Good international and wilderness opportunities. Practically live in ED second and third year. Springfield isn't that rough and is fairly affordable but salary is based on living in more expensive burbs only ~20 minutes away. Near decent hiking, okay skiing, six flags, Northampton, and watersports and not too far from Boston and better hiking and skiing. Good vibe from residents. Cool interview experience where PD was there hanging with the residents but not intrusive. Friendly and helpful staff. Works OK for SO.
Negatives: Interns did not seem thrilled with a lot of their off-services. Not ideal for SO. Looking for somewhere warmer.

3. Christus Spohn: Positives: unopposed community program with tons of procedures, EM residents running the show, residents felt they were exceptionally well trained, significant volume, sick patients. Incredible moonlighting opportunities. Can live on the water and not too far from Houston. SO loved this program.
Negatives: Not really near anything and a young program makes me wonder about job prospects outside of the region. Opportunities for SO.

4. Kaweah Delta: Positives: essentially unopposed community program with tons of procedures and autonomy where current interns appear to be functioning at the level of seniors. Sick/underserved population in Visalia. Like the PD. Young program. An hour to good hiking, farther to Yosemite, SF/coast/Tahoe etc are 3+ hours away.
Negatives: new program is a +/-. Opportunities for SO. Air quality of Visalia.

5. Rochester: Positives: I loved this program. Great mix of county/academic. Tons of volume. Sick patients with crazy mix of urban/suburban/rural (Mennonite buggy accidents and rare genetic diseases!). Incredible PD. Graduated responsibility where you run the resus bay completely solo as a senior. I feel like this program is underrated. Some of the opportunities seemed like the designed them for me.
Negatives: Not high on SO's list. Rochester seems nice but doesn't have exactly what we're looking for.

6. Virginia Tech: Positives: young, energetic program that seems very consciously designed to be a force to be reckoned with down the road. EM residents get tons of procedures and a lot of respect/leeway in the hospital. Good hiking/paddling/COL in/near Roanoke.
Negatives: did not mesh great with residents. Opportunities for SO.

7. Western Michigan (Kalamazoo): Positives: well established, tons of ED and ICU time with EM running the ICU when you're on ICU months. Ungodly awesome flight/EMS program. Tracks = "mini fellowships" in almost anything, and PD is pretty open to letting you design your own tracks. KZoo seems OK.
Negatives: didn't gel well with the incoming PD. Not terribly impressed by current residents. KZoo seems OK.

8. Wright State: Positives: a pleasant surprise. Got along well with the chair. Residents seemed happy with their training. The mix of civilian/air force residents provides a unique prospective to EM and having faculty with military mass casualty experience is a boon.
Negatives: Rotating through 5 different hospitals I imagine I probably won't know people's names/feel truly comfortable. Working with 120 different preceptors. Dayton could be worse but could be better.

9. Kern: Positives: lots of procedures. Very sick/underserved community. Really adored the PD and liked the chair. B-field is warm most of the year
Negatives: 4 years in polluted Bakersfield is not terribly appealing. When it's not warm there it's HOT. I asked some residents if they thought all the off-services they did as an intern and the extra year were making them a better physician and received a resounding "no." I would consider a 4 year if I got a very different answer.

10. Drexel: Positives: very well-established program ("second in the nation). Lots of solid ED and ICU opportunities. Most residents seemed friendly. Good opps for SO
Negatives: Looking for a smaller/warmer city. One third year spent the day with us and he seemed to rankle the entire group leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I suspect this was just an unfortunate representation.

11-13 Alphabetically:

Central Michigan: really liked most of the people, seems like they get great procedures, Saginaw did not work for SO

Staten Island: loved the chair, really liked the PD, seems like some good opportunities but nothing really sold me on the program. SI did not work for SO.

U. of Missouri - Columbia: some really nice faculty and liked Columbia. Had some program concerns but would be in the first class so I couldn't ask current residents to address these like I could elsewhere. Including: seems like crazy low volume with plans on increasing class size by 2 in near future; plans for a more traditional hierarchy (interns report to second years report to third years report to attendings) which I don't like the sound of in the ED, although that would not affect the first class; three of core leadership were all chiefs at WashU back to back which may make them very strong but I'm concerned about inbreeding.
 
MD applicant, from midwest/northeast. Step 1 220s, Step 2 240s. H/P/H on EM rotations. Several non-EM publications. Applied to 30, offered 8, waitlisted at 2.

1. UPMC (Pitt) – Pros: Friendly PD, enthusiastic faculty, got along well with residents, close to friends/family. Strong academic institution with many post-grad opportunities, EMS training w/ Jeep and flight shifts second to none. Multiple training sites with different feels. Pittsburgh is a great, affordable city. Cons: one the highest number of shifts/month, peds not integrated.

2. VCU – Biggest surprise on the interview trail, really blown away by their program. Pros: meshed well with the residents, beautiful new 100 bed ED nearing completion, track program has some really interesting options (ex: media relations, head to NYC for a month to work for a national TV station). High volume, large catchment area. Integrated peds. Bus tour really showed off Richmond, seems like a cool place to live. Cons: 2 ward months (IM and peds), all 12s.

3. Maricopa – Pros: Enthusiastic new PD, awesome residents. County program with good funding, EM is the “top dog” program in the hospital. Good mix of clinical sites. Phoenix has great weather and outdoor activities, easy striking distance to Vegas/Mexico/CA/etc. Cons: far from family/friends.

4. UPenn – Pros: very down to earth PD, all the trappings that come with the Penn name, CHOP experience, lots of elective time with international options and a cool connection with the IHS in Arizona. Cons: 4 years.

5. Louisville – Pros: well established program, high level of autonomy, graduates really know how to move a department. High trauma volume, down to earth residents. Louisville is a fun city, good cost of living. Lower number of shifts/month. Cons: a little too much autonomy for my taste, older/cramped ED, multiple EMRs.

6. Allegheny General – Pros: close to family/friends, PD is a great advocate for the residents. Excellent EMS training. Friendly faculty. Cons: old ED, still using paper charts, just didn’t get the “warm and fuzzies.”

7. Las Vegas – Pros: amazing event coverage (Burning Man, EDC, NASCAR, etc), large catchment area. Access to Vegas events/food/entertainment. Cons: new PD, far from family, just didn’t get a feeling I’d be a good fit.

8. John Hopkins – Pros: amazing leadership/research opportunities, FAST tracks are essentially mini fellowships during 4th year, multiple clinical sites, Shock Trauma experience, Baltimore/east coast corridor. Cons: 4 years, seemed oddly couples oriented. During his presentation the chair asked us to “raise your hand if you are not planning on bringing a SO next year.” He followed it with a comment along the lines of “oh don’t worry, we’ll find someone for you guys” and proceeded to talk up their club for spouses/SO of residents. Not the best way to win over a single person.
 
Crap... I deleted my list during an edit. Will try and get it back tomorrow.
 
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Congrats man, solid app & great interviews. Just curious about what made you leave out 5 progs from ROL? I'm sure you'll be fine, but 8's on the low-side for EM. Rather not match than be at those 5?
 
Just a general question for you guys, and just strictly out of curiosity (in case any zeroes get up in my face): what is the deal with "the rest, alphabetically"? I mean, you are naming names by stating the first 8 or 10 - is there concern that one might offend, say, MUSC, for listing Palmetto as #11, and them as #12?

I mean, the most interesting ones are those that you rank #1, and those you rank # last - it's like the most interesting guy after the winner of the marathon is the guy who drops out at mile 25. Why you put a program last, or didn't rank them, is MUCH more interesting (and possibly/probably helpful) than "alphabetically".

But, again, if you are one of those people who will get on my back, don't.
 
Apollyon said:
Just a general question for you guys, and just strictly out of curiosity (in case any zeroes get up in my face): what is the deal with "the rest, alphabetically"? I mean, you are naming names by stating the first 8 or 10 - is there concern that one might offend, say, MUSC, for listing Palmetto as #11, and them as #12?

I mean, the most interesting ones are those that you rank #1, and those you rank # last - it's like the most interesting guy after the winner of the marathon is the guy who drops out at mile 25. Why you put a program last, or didn't rank them, is MUCH more interesting (and possibly/probably helpful) than "alphabetically".

But, again, if you are one of those people who will get on my back, don't.
Click to expand...

I'll get around to posting my list soon. I agree - the top and bottom is most interesting. The middle of my list was kind of a "eh, these are fine, not my favorites, I should put them in some type of order." There are reasons the programs at the bottom of my list are on the bottom.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
I'll get around to posting my list soon. I agree - the top and bottom is most interesting. The middle of my list was kind of a "eh, these are fine, not my favorites, I should put them in some type of order." There are reasons the programs at the bottom of my list are on the bottom.
Click to expand...

Not every program at the bottom of the list is there because they're a horrible program who whips their residents. Sometimes it's just poor location for that person or their SO, maybe you had a fluke bad interview day, maybe mid way through the season you realized your life long dream of flying and the program doesn't let you fly. I think people alphabetize them because they're trying to respect the programs and not bash a perfectly good program. If more than 2 or 3 people put MiddleOfNowhere University as last on their list because of location alone it wouldn't be long before there'd be a thread like "I've heard MiddleOfNowhere has problems can someone tell me whats going on?"
 
red10 said:
Not every program at the bottom of the list is there because they're a horrible program who whips their residents.
Click to expand...

Truth. The program I ranked last is considered one of the most "prestigious" programs out there. And the program leadership there knew it. I There was a pretty self-righteous vibe and one was a supreme jerk. Before the interview I was planning to have it at the top of my list...2 hours into it I was tempted to not rank them at all.
 
red10 said:
Not every program at the bottom of the list is there because they're a horrible program who whips their residents. Sometimes it's just poor location for that person or their SO, maybe you had a fluke bad interview day, maybe mid way through the season you realized your life long dream of flying and the program doesn't let you fly. I think people alphabetize them because they're trying to respect the programs and not bash a perfectly good program. If more than 2 or 3 people put MiddleOfNowhere University as last on their list because of location alone it wouldn't be long before there'd be a thread like "I've heard MiddleOfNowhere has problems can someone tell me whats going on?"
Click to expand...

Yes, but your whole post goes right to the crux of my point - if several people put "InAndOut Burger" last, then a prudent question WOULD be "are there problems there?" The question arises whether the last of the list IS a horrible program, or if it is a "it's not you, it's me" thing. And, as to the person above, your point, too, would be intriguing - you say it was one of the most "prestigious" programs, yet, 2 hours into the interview, you were tempted to not rank them. Now THAT is one about which I would really like to hear (although, parenthetically, I have a guess as to which program that is). "Horrible" means different things to different people, and your brief description could fit that bill. That would be a LOT more incisive than alphabetically - and, if someone would go to the effort to alphabetize, a single line of "no problems, just the last in line" would be equally as facile.

And, logically, if one is speaking to numbers 13 to 15, how much "bashing" is there?

Again, don't bash me.
 
Apollyon said:
Yes, but your whole post goes right to the crux of my point - if several people put "InAndOut Burger" last, then a prudent question WOULD be "are there problems there?" The question arises whether the last of the list IS a horrible program, or if it is a "it's not you, it's me" thing. And, as to the person above, your point, too, would be intriguing - you say it was one of the most "prestigious" programs, yet, 2 hours into the interview, you were tempted to not rank them. Now THAT is one about which I would really like to hear (although, parenthetically, I have a guess as to which program that is). "Horrible" means different things to different people, and your brief description could fit that bill. That would be a LOT more incisive than alphabetically - and, if someone would go to the effort to alphabetize, a single line of "no problems, just the last in line" would be equally as facile.

And, logically, if one is speaking to numbers 13 to 15, how much "bashing" is there?

Again, don't bash me.
Click to expand...

I think if there IS a problem with a program you'll see it in their reviews on the review threads. Otherwise I would assume the last of people's list is just a "meh not as good of a fit/location as 1-10" thing.
 
red10 said:
I think if there IS a problem with a program you'll see it in their reviews on the review threads. Otherwise I would assume the last of people's list is just a "meh not as good of a fit/location as 1-10" thing.
Click to expand...

Having been on SDN for 13 years, and not being one of the "cool kids", I have learned to look everywhere for information. I can't recall how many vague or "clique-y" things I didn't understand, because it was someone's one-off mention in one thread, which then gets picked up - but not explained - by others, and promulgated thus. I believe that you are making assumptions about facts not in evidence.

Man, do I sound cynical, or what?!
 
Apollyon said:
Having been on SDN for 13 years, and not being one of the "cool kids", I have learned to look everywhere for information. I can't recall how many vague or "clique-y" things I didn't understand, because it was someone's one-off mention in one thread, which then gets picked up - but not explained - by others, and promulgated thus. I believe that you are making assumptions about facts not in evidence.

Man, do I sound cynical, or what?!
Click to expand...
Lol, lucky there's a thread for that cynicism right now too 😉 I tend to agree with above... the bottom of my list is not about "these programs sucked because of this and this", they are about the fact that those were the programs where I felt the least amount of "fit" for me. Maybe it was location or personality types... both of which are personal preference type things that should never influence other people because we all have different preferences. By not putting that as the reason I guess it kinda does leave a "hmm, I wonder why" but I honestly think with the moderate amount of anonymity here I think most people would mention if there was something truly negative that drove the program to the bottom of the list like a bad faculty member or interview, crap curriculum, or something of that nature. That matters. Someone's preference for Cali over Ohio... not so much. I guess just how I feel... maybe I'm alone on that one.
 
red10 said:
I think if there IS a problem with a program you'll see it in their reviews on the review threads. Otherwise I would assume the last of people's list is just a "meh not as good of a fit/location as 1-10" thing.
Click to expand...

Rank lists have been cross posted into the EM stickies on specific programs for the last few years, presumably because there are not many individual, lengthy program reviews. Throwing details into the ROL thread is important.

I suppose we need someone to go through the ROL thread in a few months and do the necessary cross posting, unless someone is already doing it...I haven't checked the individual program stickies recently.
 
rut roh... just got an email from the NRMP titled "Important SOAP Resources". I know it's nothing but informational and "in case" type stuff but seeing that flash across my phone as the "you have an email" update it gave me a little pucker factor for a second or two, lol! I guess I'll call it a fire drill and hope the real fire never happens!:barf:
 
namethatsmell said:
Truth. The program I ranked last is considered one of the most "prestigious" programs out there. And the program leadership there knew it. I There was a pretty self-righteous vibe and one was a supreme jerk. Before the interview I was planning to have it at the top of my list...2 hours into it I was tempted to not rank them at all.
Click to expand...

I ranked Vandy last.
 
Soooooo... back to that whole rank list thing... anyone else have any to post??? Seems like the #s are mighty low this year...
 
I'll feed the beast. Been years since I've posted.

Low tier Midwestern MD school. 230s/250s on steps. H/HP/HP. Lots of research in unrelated field. My letters were very average. I wish I had asked for more letters. I thought I was fine with letters but my advisors said it was a weak point of my ap. I applied to 50+ places all over the country.

1) SD kaiser: (+) location location location. Love San Diego. Got along well with the PD and really like the idea of helping shape a new program. (-) guinea pig

2) Denver: (+) Spend five minutes searching sdn EM forums and you'll find everyone loves this place. Great hospitals. Great variety. Denver is awesome. Graduate as a BOSS (-) workhorse reputation

3) New York hospital Queens/cornell: (+) New York area. Great patient population diversity. Trauma is longitudinal plus a month in Miami. Loved the residents. Residents end up getting jobs and fellowships at awesome places (-) money problems from Medicare audit and recent changes in EM leadership. Residency downsized from 8 to 6. Not really sure what this means.

4) NY Methodist: (+) surprised at how much I liked this place. Beautiful ED. The PD was great and they learn US very well. Chance to live in manhattan. (-) was bashed on SDN, must take these things with a grain of salt. Not a well known program beyond the northeast.

5) Presence resurrection Chicago: (+) Chicago is the best. Great diversity of curriculum. Residents are enthusiastic. (-) very unimpressive ED at home hospital. Many different locations you must travel to.

6) Hackensack: (+) get to live in Hoboken. a top hospital in the country. Awesome PD. Beautiful ED. (-) new. No fellowships. Trauma seemed very weak. Non-diverse patient population. No access to under served patient population.

7) Detroit receiving (+) loved everything about this place... Literally (-) Detroit. I really don't want to live in the D

8) Ucsf Fresno: (+) loved everything about this place as well. (-) Fresno is as bad as Detroit for me, I ranked it lower because this is a 4 year program

9) St. John Detroit: this place is also awesome. Just thought the experience at Detroit receiving is a little bit better.

10) Yale: top program in all respects. I just really didn't get along with a few facility members and one resident. There are mostly great people here. Not a good fit for me.
 
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Strong northeast lean, 3-year preference

1) St-Luke's Roosevelt: Loved everything I heard about this program before interview day, and it exceeded expectations. + amazing curriculum, trauma month at Maryland shock, focus on wellness seems legitimate (Dr. Clark is amazing and just won program director of the year), best combo of academic opportunity but clinical/teaching focus, awesome/happy residents, great benefits/housing. - no university on campus (affiliated with Mt. Sinai).

2) Mt. Sinai: +top research opportunities, PD is from SLR, cool residents, diverse experience with Sinai and Elmhurst, NYC. - commute, so-so housing, 4-years without any clear benefit of the last one

3) Georgetown/WHC: +love DC, like PD, attending run-hospital allows more learning time for residents (nobody works Tuesday night so they can attend Wednesday conference), good Peds experience with DC childrens, residents get to do rotations at big sports events. - newish program, expensive city without subsidized housing, some fellowships still being worked out

4) Temple: +Great feel on interview day, supportive staff, absolutely love Dr. Garg, McNamara (chair) has huge hand in running the hospital which has trickle down benefits for the ED, best program in Philly, cool residents. - Commute to North philly, question the circadian scheduling

5) NYU: +Bellevue is iconic, more focus on clinical than research, all 3 (very different hospitals) are right next to each other, good prestige, Dr. Goldfrank is the man, Hoffman and all of tox is awesome. -off-service rotations, attached to a homeless shelter (workload/learning goes up), little-no research going on

6) Hopkins: +Name opens a lot of doors, PD was cool, believe you'd see everything, only 4-year program I saw which had an awesome/worthwhile 4h year. -Baltimore, white coats mandatory

7-15 (in no order): VCU, Stanford, Emory, Columbia/Cornell, Einstein/Jacobi, BUMC, Uchicago, Christiana, Denver

Did not rank: Einstein (philly)
 
MD state school somewhere in the Western half of the country. 240s step 1/2. Average grades in 3rd year, 2 honors at "big name" EM programs in 4th year. Possibly interested in a career in academics, but I want high acuity for training so I can stay flexible career-wise. Looking to possibly live in Cali after residency. Very happy with my match results (ended up at one of my top choices!!!).

1) Einstein-Jacobi/Montefiore: +++Quality of training (tons of pathology, high acuity), +++Optional academic/teaching track, ++Well-established with amazing reputation (seems to have lots of alumni in academic leadership at other programs), ++Residents are super smart without being dorky, +training in precepting lower levels, +Cali (Everyone who wants to go to Cali seems to have multiple job offers), +Moonlighting, +4 years, +/- Location (20-30 minutes from Manhattan by subway), +/-Cost of living (Salary is decent, but I don't know how far it would go in NYC), +/-Relatively little scutwork (for an NYC program)

2) UCLA-Harbor: +++Quality of training (tons of sick patients like my #1), +++Location (Needs no clarification), +++ Location (Great location, just thought it deserved some more +++s), ++Terrific reputation, crazy competitive, ++Awesome residents, +"Clicked" with faculty during interviews, +4 years , +great fellowships afterward, -Very close to ranking #1, but just overall wasn't feeling it quite as much as Jacobi.

3) NYP (Presby): +++Great split of clinical sites (Cornell with privileged suburbanites, Columbia as a total ****storm), +++Definitely "clicked" with the resdients, ++Great reputation, ++Manhattan!!!, -Cost of living (even the subsidized housing is crazy expensive), ---Ancillary staff at Columbia is terrible.

4) Mr. Sinai (NYC): +++Quality of training (Another high acuity program, but doesn't seem to have quite as much trauma), +++Lots of research resources, Location (NYC!), +/-4 years (doesn't seem to justify 4th year as well as #1/#2), -Housing is not that great

5) NYU (Bellevue): +++Great training, great reputation, great tox, great almost everything, +++ (NYC!), -Trauma (Decent blunt trauma exposure, but lacks the variety and acuity of Harbor and Jacobi)

6) UCSF Fresno: +++Awesome pathology, extremely high acuity, residents are amazing, ++Great ancillary staff, ++Everything in the hospital is really nice/new, +Cost of living +/- Not sure what the 4th year is for, ---Fresno (No. But maybe). If this program were located in LA/SF/SD/NYC, it would be my #2.

7) UCSD: +++LOCATION (San Diego is an amazing city to live in), ++Love the PD and aPD, +/- Possibly too academic for me, +/-Doesn't seem to justify 4th year well (just lots of free time and random electives?), -Seems to be lower acuity overall, -Not very much penetrating trauma

8) NYC Beth Israel: Not as much trauma or peds exposure, but still a very strong program. 3 years. Housing is really nice and cheap (and unexpectedly spacious for Manhattan). If it were 4 years and a bit more academic, it would be MUCH higher on my list (well into my top 5).

9) Buffalo: Residents seem to get solid training, great EMS experience, lots of different tracks, wish this was a 4 year program. PD rubbed me the wrong way (acted like I couldn't get into a better program).

10) SUNY Stonybrook: ++Hospital building looks like it was built by an architecture student. Just not quite feeling it as much.

11) Kawea Delta (Visalia): +++Love the PD, residents are awesome people. Great patient population. Residents seem to have the run of the ER (and every other service they are on). ---New program, no reputation, have no idea where alumni will end up.

12) NYMC Metro: Love the PD, residents are pretty chill. Great acuity and patient population. Experience in county and academic settings. ---Did not like main hospital facility. Made me feel like I was in a 1960s horror movie. ---Heard there's lots of scutwork.

13) Hackensack: Residents were not happy here, which is a dealbreaker. Lower acuity.

14) Lincoln: Was very high on my list before interviewing, but dropped here afterward. Residents seemed unhappy. Lots of scutwork. Busy, high acuity ED, but very little teaching (heard from others who rotated here). PD and faculty totally rubbed me the wrong way during interview (they gave me a ton of attitude and acted as if I couldn't get into a better program). Was seriously considering not ranking, but ending up here would have been better than not matching (I guess...). Lots of Carribian grads here. I have nothing against AIMGs per se, but it's usually the less competitive programs that fill with them, and less competitive programs are that way for a reason...
 
EMhopeful69 said:
Access to the outdoors is kind of a crapshoot up in Fresno. While, yes, you do have access to things, everything is at least two hours away and that's in one direction. So if you have hopes to go hiking in some nice mountains, that's a 4 hour round trip.
Click to expand...

Hey all, sorry to resurrect this old thread but I'm looking through it for some info while applying this year and thought I would correct this misinformation. As someone who lived in the foothills of the Sierras and commuted into Fresno for years I will tell you that you certainly do not have to travel two hours from Fresno to have some great hiking/outdoor fun.

First, you can do as I did and easily rent/own multiple acres in the foothills (Prather, Auberry, Oakhurst, Coarsegold, etc) and commute 45 minutes into Fresno therefore having outdoor access literally from your front steps. Depending on how long you are willing to commute you can get higher into the mountains and away from the summer heat. The only downside is the notorious valley fog in the winter which takes a while to get used to driving in.

To specifically address the 2 hour misnomer mentioned above- True, it takes 2 hours from Fresno to get into Yosemite. However, it takes only 45 min or so to reach unbelievable national forest. The climbing at Fresno dome, Shuteye ridge, Hawk Dome, etc it much closer, has Yosemite style granite, minus Yosemite crowds. Honestly, I hardly ever went into the park when I lived there due to the crowds. Also its about 1.5 h from Fresno to good skiing at China Peak. Hope this helps clarify some things for outdoorsy people considering Fresno for residency!
 
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