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cowgirla said:
If we switch back, I'll have to pick your brain on technique.
I don't generally have a tech in the room with me, or when out on the farm, and it was a battle in the vast majority of patients. I can do a very good exam in most patients with minimal restraint, but that stupid vaccine never went well.
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Gotta shoot quick before they get a chance to even realize what you’re doing :laugh:
 
cowgirla said:
If we switch back, I'll have to pick your brain on technique.
I don't generally have a tech in the room with me, or when out on the farm, and it was a battle in the vast majority of patients. I can do a very good exam in most patients with minimal restraint, but that stupid vaccine never went well.
Click to expand...
I know just from doing nasal exams that having a tech in the room just for a small part of the exam can help so much. Or just distracting with a treat if they’re good motivated helps a lot as well. Also just being confident and quickly giving it. That’s one difference between my current vet and my previous vet. For anything SQ, he’s very quick and deliberate. The more you try to get the perfect angle the longer it takes and the more aware the animal becomes of what’s going on. Much previous vet spent so much time trying to make sure that the injection wouldn’t go through. If you have almost 100% success with taking your time and 99% success by just going quickly, just go quickly. The extremely small chance of messing up when you go quickly is definitely worth the benefit of not pissing off the patient. And if you mess up, it’s a small cost. Unless it’s convenia...
 
cowgirla said:
If we switch back, I'll have to pick your brain on technique.
I don't generally have a tech in the room with me, or when out on the farm, and it was a battle in the vast majority of patients. I can do a very good exam in most patients with minimal restraint, but that stupid vaccine never went well.
Click to expand...

I extend neck backwards and sneak it in from behind, "nose to the sky" deal. Approaching from the front doesn't work well, they see it. Or sometimes if I know the dog has sniffed everything, I will show them the vaccine and when they sniff... squirt, squirt.... SURPRISE! :laugh:
 
DVMDream said:
I extend neck backwards and sneak it in from behind, "nose to the sky" deal. Approaching from the front doesn't work well, they see it. Or sometimes if I know the dog has sniffed everything, I will show them the vaccine and when they sniff... squirt, squirt.... SURPRISE! :laugh:
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I've definitely done the "surprise a sniffer" approach. Don't know why I've never tried doing it from behind - this is how I do a million things and it just never occurred to me to do bordetella this way, but def trying it next time I get a chance
 
ajs513 said:
@cdoconn @DVMDream @vetmedhead
I really appreciate the input. Like I said, I haven’t had experience with severe cases since I’ve only worked in GP offices. I know along the way I’ll encounter some scary things, but I’m lucky that I haven’t yet (for this specifically). I definitely think that it should be tailored for the patient, and that’s what my office recommends anyway. We don’t give bordetella super often though due to the clientele and what they do with their pets. Most are pretty coddled, not boarded, and have personal groomers. The ones who do get boarded or go for grooming get it. We also get a lot of crazy anti-vaxxers, but don’t even get me started on that.
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I still warn people that even with a "personal" or "at home" groomer, their pet is still at risk as that groomer has been to other homes, seen other dogs, touched other dogs and the bacteria can spread just from that. Dog--> groomer----> next dog, but if they are anti-vaxx they won't care anyway you word it. They will only care (maybe) when their dog is dying from bronchopneumonia in the ER.
 
DVMDream said:
I still warn people that even with a "personal" or "at home" groomer, their pet is still at risk as that groomer has been to other homes, seen other dogs, touched other dogs and the bacteria can spread just from that. Dog--> groomer----> next dog, but if they are anti-vaxx they won't care anyway you word it. They will only care (maybe) when their dog is dying from bronchopneumonia in the ER.
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That’s true. I never really thought of it that way. At the end of the day we do still recommend it for patients who are at risk but not at a super high risk. Surprisingly/maybe not surprisingly, wealthy people love to decline routine care though.
 
DVMDream said:
I extend neck backwards and sneak it in from behind, "nose to the sky" deal. Approaching from the front doesn't work well, they see it. Or sometimes if I know the dog has sniffed everything, I will show them the vaccine and when they sniff... squirt, squirt.... SURPRISE! :laugh:
Click to expand...
That was always my method...maybe my aim was the problem, not the vaccine lol

Either way, I can't find the studies we used when deciding to change, but we see very little difference in efficacy. Most of the coughing dogs I do get end up being a different etiology, even the unvaccinated ones that let me test. Client response to the oral is so much better. Less gets immediately sneezed or dripped out on the table therefore clients think it's a "better use of their money." In five years, I think our practice had 10-12 dogs with mild URI signs for a few days after the intranasal, and then of course, those owners wanted to decline the vaccine in the future or get a letter for boarding kennels that "fluffy almost died and can't get the vaccine ever again!!!!" Oral is a little more expensive for us, but I've been quite happy with it.
 
Stroganoff said:
Oh wow, there's anti-vaxx pet owners too? I thought the crazies was limited to human medicine. Do they have the same reasons, like doggy autism? Or is it like "Oh, my dog acquired Guillain-Barre, so I'm putting future vaccs on hold."
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They honestly don’t even have the same reasoning. They just distrust big Pharma. Use garlic as FT prev. They use herbal collars. Essential oils. Cedar oil. They try reiki healing. Anything that can be considered a synthetic chemical is bad. We even have one who, while she’s incredible at owning dogs for most things like training and food, brings her dog on runs in the woods and gives no preventatives of any sort. She does tons of bloodwork to make sure nothing is wrong, but the dog has gotten ehrlichiosis before. You’d think these sorts of mental gymnastics would break a mental bone but you’d unfortunately be wrong.
 
Stroganoff said:
Oh wow, there's anti-vaxx pet owners too? I thought the crazies were limited to human medicine. Do they have the same reasons, like doggy autism? Or is it like "Oh, my dog acquired Guillain-Barre, so I'm putting future vaccs on hold."
Click to expand...
Crazy people gonna be crazy no matter what they're in charge of. Sometimes I think people just like to feel in control of medical situations and declining stuff in favor of weird hooey their neighbor told them is their way of feeling like they are participating in the care of their pet and (in some way) had some control over the outcome
 
Stroganoff said:
Oh wow, there's anti-vaxx pet owners too? I thought the crazies were limited to human medicine. Do they have the same reasons, like doggy autism? Or is it like "Oh, my dog acquired Guillain-Barre, so I'm putting future vaccs on hold."
Click to expand...
Usually the same people are antivax in my experience. Think their animals are being over vaccinated because you get childhood vaccines once so why is my dog not good for life on all vaccines after the puppy series. Some people DO have actual reasons for not vaccinating if their dog has developed certain diseases where it’s highly recommended to not vaccinate or skipping a certain vaccine if their dog had an anaphylactic reaction to it and pre and post Benadryl didn’t help. But the legitimate reasons for no vaccines aren’t super common, just like in human med more people are looneys than they actually had a problem with the vaccine
 
Stroganoff said:
Oh wow, there's anti-vaxx pet owners too? I thought the crazies were limited to human medicine. Do they have the same reasons, like doggy autism? Or is it like "Oh, my dog acquired Guillain-Barre, so I'm putting future vaccs on hold."
Click to expand...
they’re worried about the doggie autism
 
cowgirla said:
That was always my method...maybe my aim was the problem, not the vaccine lol

Either way, I can't find the studies we used when deciding to change, but we see very little difference in efficacy. Most of the coughing dogs I do get end up being a different etiology, even the unvaccinated ones that let me test. Client response to the oral is so much better. Less gets immediately sneezed or dripped out on the table therefore clients think it's a "better use of their money." In five years, I think our practice had 10-12 dogs with mild URI signs for a few days after the intranasal, and then of course, those owners wanted to decline the vaccine in the future or get a letter for boarding kennels that "fluffy almost died and can't get the vaccine ever again!!!!" Oral is a little more expensive for us, but I've been quite happy with it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the oral is just fine too. I really don't see how you can go wrong either way with using IN or oral, heck even injectable is better than nothing.

Agree, I have yet to get a dog come back positive for bordetella when it has had URI signs either vaccinated or not... usually comes back mycoplasma.
 
vetmedhead said:
dogtism
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I **** you not, that was a question on one of my immunology exams.

Which of the following is NOT a possible side effect of a vaccine:

A) Type I hypersensitivity reaction
B) Facial swelling
C) Canine autism
D) [idk]
 
Stroganoff said:
Dog: Woof! Rrrrrr. Woowoof!
Me: Now, now, use your words.
Dog: Oh thanks, I totally forgot. Anyways, some more doggy treats perchance? I've been such a good boy.
Me: Absolutely!
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He just doesn't seem to be sniffing butts as well as his peers
 
Stroganoff said:
Oh wow, there's anti-vaxx pet owners too? I thought the crazies were limited to human medicine. Do they have the same reasons, like doggy autism? Or is it like "Oh, my dog acquired Guillain-Barre, so I'm putting future vaccs on hold."
Click to expand...

Not sure if Guillian-Barre has ever been reported in dogs to be honest. I'd have to dig a bit deeper for that. No, it is more of the "it is poison! They will get autism (not sure how you determine if a dog is autistic... but that is a different convo), it isn't necessary, they only need one vaccine ever! Etc, etc". Thinks of all the reasons in human med, someone somewhere thinks it can happen to their dog/cat as well.
 
DVMDream said:
it isn't necessary, they only need one vaccine ever! Etc, etc".
Click to expand...
Honestly this is a reason why I’m glad titers exist. That way you can literally show someone “no, your dog ISN’T protected. Get the vaccine.” My office offers free distemper vaccination if the titer comes back negative. It’s a good incentive for people who are against the vaccine to at least test. Happy medium and all.
 
DVMDream said:
And don't get me started on the small dogs need a smaller amount of vaccine than big dogs.... people just do not understand how the immune system works.
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BUT MY THREE POINT TWO POUND FIFI SHOULD NOT BE GETTING THE SAME AMOUNT OF VACCINE AS THAT MASSIVE 180 POUND MAXIMUS OVER THERE
 
ajs513 said:
Honestly this is a reason why I’m glad titers exist. That way you can literally show someone “no, your dog ISN’T protected. Get the vaccine.” My office offers free distemper vaccination if the titer comes back negative. It’s a good incentive for people who are against the vaccine to at least test. Happy medium and all.
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Except if the titer is high then people go "see no vaccine needed", but that isn't necessarily true, because a high titer does not mean that pet is protected from that disease. I will repeat that, a high titer does not equal protection from disease.
 
SkiOtter said:
BUT MY THREE POINT TWO POUND FIFI SHOULD NOT BE GETTING THE SAME AMOUNT OF VACCINE AS THAT MASSIVE 180 POUND MAXIMUS OVER THERE
Click to expand...

I have actually asked them how much their small dog needs and they will say 1/2mL because you know that is what the internet says. I then go, ok, based upon that you are telling me that the 180 pound mastiff needs ~18mLs of vaccine give or take a little bit.... no big dog owner is concerned that their large dog isn't getting enough vaccine.
 
DVMDream said:
Except if the titer is high then people go "see no vaccine needed", but that isn't necessarily true, because a high titer does not mean that pet is protected from that disease. I will repeat that, a high titer does not equal protection from disease.
Click to expand...
For distemper the titer is very accurate. For other vaccines it isn’t as accurate. Here is the AVMA’s stance on it.
https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/160701a.aspx
 
Out of curiosity, if high titre does not equal disease protection, why do we (humans) get titred for rabies instead of just being boosted every few years?

I haven't taken immuno yet.
 
ajs513 said:
For distemper the titer is very accurate. For other vaccines it isn’t as accurate. Here is the AVMA’s stance on it.
https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/160701a.aspx
Click to expand...

I hate the AVMA....

I am still going to repeat that... a high titer does not equal immunity from disease. Checking a titer is checking one tiny aspect of the entire immune system that is needed to fight off/fend from disease. While a high titer shows the body responded and will likely protect from that disease you can not parse down and say "because you have a high titer you are protected from this disease" it doesn't work that way. The immune system is much more complicated than that.
 
TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo said:
Out of curiosity, if high titre does not equal disease protection, why do we (humans) get titred for rabies instead of just being boosted every few years?

I haven't taken immuno yet.
Click to expand...

Human medicine does everything differently. However, if you are bitten by a rabies suspect or are exposed it doesn't matter what your titer is, you are being vaccinated again.

We can't "vaccinate again" for exposure to distemper/parvo after the fact in dogs because we have no way to know when/if/how they were exposed. Three different diseases. Most people asking for titers in pets are getting them for distemper and parvo not for rabies. The only time I have run rabies titers on a pet is when the owner is trying to travel/move to another country or to Hawaii and they need a titer test for an international health certificate.
 
There are also zero studies done in animals to correlate that titer with protection so at this point it is a guess as to what titer level is considered "high" even. The real answer is we don't even know that information. No study has titer tested dogs and then separated them into different levels based on titer then exposed them to the disease.... so we really don't even know what level is "high" it is all just a guess at this point.
 
On the topic of anti-vax pet owners - I do dog sports and the amount of vaccine, HW/F/T preventative, and dog kibble hate is rampant within both show and performance sports including techs who work in vet med field.

When I was looking for a breeder for my toller puppy I couldn't find anyone who wasn't going to sell me a puppy without me promising to feed raw and not vaccinate.

I talked about it with my breeder when I was first inquiring about a puppy from her and she said the feeling within the breeder community is that vaccines and dog kibble cause the auto-immune and genetic diseases that show up in the breed to flare up. :bang:
 
genny said:
Rabies vaccines are expensive.
Click to expand...
My previous bosses were from India. They would go to India when they needed their rabies vaccines and get them for $10. I was tempted to just fly to India with them to get vaccinated.
 
DVMDream said:
Human medicine does everything differently. However, if you are bitten by a rabies suspect or are exposed it doesn't matter what your titer is, you are being vaccinated again.

We can't "vaccinate again" for exposure to distemper/parvo after the fact in dogs because we have no way to know when/if/how they were exposed. Three different diseases. Most people asking for titers in pets are getting them for distemper and parvo not for rabies. The only time I have run rabies titers on a pet is when the owner is trying to travel/move to another country or to Hawaii and they need a titer test for an international health certificate.
Click to expand...
Well and even if someone wanted to titer for rabies, it still doesn’t meet the legal requirement for vaccinating so they’d still need to vaccinate so might as well save your $300 :laugh:
 
Stroganoff said:
What clinical value do titers have then in vet med?
Click to expand...

Other than testing for certain disease like mentioned. .. lepto/Lyme/fungal disease they really aren't used. Lyme and lepto can get confusing since we do have vaccines for those so determining titer from vaccine vs disease gets interesting.
 
SkiOtter said:
Well and even if someone wanted to titer for rabies, it still doesn’t meet the legal requirement for vaccinating so they’d still need to vaccinate so might as well save your $300 :laugh:
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One of our onco instructors tried to tell us in class last week that you don't have to vaccinate your cat for rabies because we can do titers. That's not how this works... 😵
 
Dinashadow said:
On the topic of anti-vax pet owners - I do dog sports and the amount of vaccine, HW/F/T preventative, and dog kibble hate is rampant within both show and performance sports including techs who work in vet med field.

When I was looking for a breeder for my toller puppy I couldn't find anyone who wasn't going to sell me a puppy without me promising to feed raw and not vaccinate.

I talked about it with my breeder when I was first inquiring about a puppy from her and she said the feeling within the breeder community is that vaccines and dog kibble cause the auto-immune and genetic diseases that show up in the breed to flare up. :bang:
Click to expand...
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
Caiter92 said:
One of our onco instructors tried to tell us in class last week that you don't have to vaccinate your cat for rabies because we can do titers. That's not how this works... 😵
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Okay but also not all states even have a legal requirement for cats to be rabies vaccinated
 
SkiOtter said:
Okay but also not all states even have a legal requirement for cats to be rabies vaccinated
Click to expand...
In WA they do.

She also tried to say that you can vaccinate every three years, no matter what the vaccine label says.

She def has no idea of the rabies laws in this state haha
 
SkiOtter said:
I know I’m just saying in general not all states require it which is insane to me
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True. Especially cause cats can be free roaming, and are way more likely than a dog to come in contact with a rabid animal.
 
I feel like today is an appropriate day to post on here. Stress has been building up gradually; I’m anxiously waiting to hear from my IS (which was also the only school I applied to). Compound that with my classes this semester, O chem 2 and biochemistry which I’m struggling with a bit, my husband never being home, and my work screwing around with our staffing, I am STRESSED.

And to top it off my dingus dog has torn her ACL and we’re now looking at an expensive surgery that can’t be done locally plus the time commitment for recovery. WHYYY??
See picture of dingus dog below and tell her she’s a butthole.
 

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J.Bed said:
I feel like today is an appropriate day to post on here. Stress has been building up gradually; I’m anxiously waiting to hear from my IS (which was also the only school I applied to). Compound that with my classes this semester, O chem 2 and biochemistry which I’m struggling with a bit, my husband never being home, and my work screwing around with our staffing, I am STRESSED.

And to top it off my dingus dog has torn her ACL and we’re now looking at an expensive surgery that can’t be done locally plus the time commitment for recovery. WHYYY??
See picture of dingus dog below and tell her she’s a butthole.
Click to expand...
Oh no 🙁 I’m so sorry! I really hope everything works out well. If you get in IS and the surgery can wait for a while with some palliative care, maybe the hospital at your school has a student discount. I know mine has a 50% discount.
 
ajs513 said:
Oh no 🙁 I’m so sorry! I really hope everything works out well. If you get in IS and the surgery can wait for a while with some palliative care, maybe the hospital at your school has a student discount. I know mine has a 50% discount.
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Whoa! Good to know. Thank you!
 
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