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Oh, no, that's not what I meant at all. I simply meant that it just isn't feasible in every single wolf game for a pack mate to never place a vote on another pack mate. It isn't a realistic goal.
Ready? Set. Assassinate! - Assassination Classroom Themed WW - Sign Ups and Game Thread
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Like who that plays regularly?
I agree with this.
What I mean is, that I do see some games lost because of lazy thinking (assumptions about some mechanics not being in play when they could be, and then when they do show up no one is ready for them), so that is where I think assumptions need to be challenged by having certain mechanics in play.
Some of my favorite examples that were village losses were RvB, the shorty 3P game, and the Zenge bone lord game.
But I absolutely see a resistance/propensity to yeeting certain players happen in a certain way that I don't think makes the game better on this site.
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For the record I think basics games are important.
I think one role of role madness ironically can be to get players to use mechanic overreliance less, not more. Because the mechanics can be done in such a way that you need to rely on thread, interactions, VCA, etc more not less.
We have had games that essentially made crazy mechanics pretty much useless and a distraction.
This is also a really good point!
And this is one of the reasons I'm very excited to get to wolf again. I think in general I'm a much, much better villager now than I was in boWWling or LiterWWary, and I'm thrilled to see how that affects my next wolf game.
Yes, and I think what makes it seem like a popularity contest is players who have played for multiple years automatically have more experience honing their playstyle and making it really, really effective.
AGREE
I really liked the champs practice game for this reason. Wacky shenanigans are super fun, but to a certain extent mechanics can start to feel stifling at times. For instance, if every single game on this site were styled after the 10th anniversary game, there wouldn't be much incentive for people to improve, imo.
Using PRs effectively is also an art and a science. But thinking about this game specifically, without mkg seering Vis and then ultimately flipping village, Vis probably would've been misyoten and maybe mkg herself as well. It would've been fascinating to see what would happen had no one had PRs here.
I don't think it's exactly lazy thinking. If you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra.
Would this not be relevant, though? Having mechanics that seem like they would be important but then they're just there... to be there? Does that not challenge expectations of games and mechanics as well?
Yeah, well, since everyone rands village about 80% of the time, it still behooves people to learn to correctly read the suckier players as you've pretty much made the case for calling them, here.
Unless you all just think certain people should just stop playing because they can't be as good of villagers as the rest of you. Good luck filling a roster.
What happened to jaboo and mkg and cubs in a lot of games for example, is something of a travesty and instead of beating your guys' collective chest about how good you are and how much other players need to improve, maybe there actually is some room for a certain cadre of players to cut some other people some slack or learn how to read them better.
I think AM is one of the first people to say it's not enough to just correctly read wolves, you need to find villagers too.
Sorry so many of us suck so bad.
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If that's your interpretation of what I said, then we're not going to be able to have a productive conversation about it.
That's what I'm saying, the crazy mechanics can challenge expectations in a way where people rely on them less.I don't think it's exactly lazy thinking. If you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra.
Would this not be relevant, though? Having mechanics that seem like they would be important but then they're just there... to be there? Does that not challenge expectations of games and mechanics as well?
No, but I thought I would tell you your theory that what other players are complaining about would just be non-issue if they got better, how that could be taken.
I don't think you think that was what your message was, but I had to point out what it basically amounts to.
I wholeheartedly resist the notion that people who get misyeeted all the time and the ones who don't, it's just a question of the misyeeted getting better and playing like the other people.
Because it doesn't feel like you're actually considering what it's like for those folks when you just assert how your own experience just confirms what you believe. What you experienced on another site this way is basically just a confirmation bias about your own play. It says very little about what other people are complaining about, actually, in all reality.
Off the top of my head, from those that have played in the last fiscal year, Stagg, Chaos, April, Vis, mayo, Paws, Barks, genny +/- PSV (unsure if still relevant for the last as she hasn't wolfed in a while) have expressed comfort with deepwolfing.
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I'd like to minus myself from this list, but still pending.
Also I didn't mean to draw sus to True, I was trying to clear him when I thought I was going down 😭
supershorty
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Well, that isn't what I said at all, so if people take it that way, that's on them.
I'm going to disengage from this because I don't like having my words twisted and it's not going to be productive. It's just going to make both of us mad.
mkg's in vet school now (though she still plays occasionally). jboo's a new doctor. cubs tends to get frustrated with this game after losing and needs to take site breaks sometimes.
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With how well village has been playing this year I don't think it's accurate to suggest that people aren't trying to correctly read those who are often under suspicion or who don't have the means (which is frankly often a time issue) to get a strong village read out of the gate. If there were only 3 or 4 villagers every game who didn't get misyeeted, village would never win. Like, Zenge, samac, shorty, and AM are frequently night-kills anyway. Village still manages to win, and often with few or no misyeets lately. You mention cubs but I can remember only one game this year where he was misyeeted (well, technically mis-shot), same with mkg I think. I think there are a lot of active attempts to get reads on players who are more difficult to read for various reasons. It comes up every game.
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Yes, no one has actually brought up how one player heavily sussed as a wolf, voting for a packmate, could be an example where bussing isn't about taking the bussed packmate down, and could be used to scare people off the yeet.
I have seen that done effectively and happen that way. Genny is a great example of someone who uses bussing (sussing packmates and voting them) to introduce the sort of WIFOM that can provide packmate cover should the voter be flipped.
Many wolves using bussing this way and it can work. Not always but yeah.
The main reason you will see me vote a pack mate or throw sus at them is that I think they may go down and flip, but also if I think I may not be long for this world.
Wolves need to be careful that their voting record is not terribly predictable when if/when they should flip.
When genny wolfs she does a great job that she has laid down enough WIFOM that analyzing her posts and votes for clues to find her pack mates is basically almost useless.
Others have this skill but she always comes to my mind first and foremost on this.
I think of the anti low-poster bias sort of like this:
If I scream 20 things on thread and five of them sound very village while the rest sound neutral, then I have five village points.
If someone else says 3 things and all three sound very village, then they theoretically have only three village points.
Does that make sense to anyone else? With a higher volume of posts there's inherently a greater likelihood of spewing village.
It does go the other way, too. If you post 20 things as a wolf, there's a greater chance of you including TMI, perspective slips, etc.
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I don't think shorty at all was talking about people who do get misyoten occasionally or frequently or laying down judgement for the way they play.
She was talking about the idea that has come up multiple times, one that you have said yourself and that others have said about me (so I have some personal experience with the frustration) that there is just some automatic "Oh we can't yeet her because she's Dubz" rule instead of it being a skill. I'm not calling other players ****ty villagers when I say that projecting villageyness is a skill, any more than I would be calling other players ****ty villagers when I say wolfhunting is a skill (one I do not have, but actively try to work on).
It was specifically about the idea that we come into a game with automatic village status because of who we are, rather than it being something we work for. And saying we get village read on other sites too is not confirmation bias, it is a literal fact. If the people you are playing with don't know you or your meta and still village read you, I would say that's pretty good evidence that you're just good at getting yourself village read. I don't understand why that has to be taken as an insult to other players.
Honestly, your post really felt like justification for dismissing some people's feelings, so I thought I would call it out. I don't think your intention was to be hurtful, but I wanted you to consider how/why it could be hurtful. I didn't mince words about it to try to get you to understand how it could feel.
I love you shorty, but no matter how you slice it your post is dismissing that some people get a clique vibe from the game, and saying that isn't really real.
To make it worse, you're doubling down on just saying, well, I don't think it's real and I'm going to ignore anyone that tries to say it is.
You can disengage but I'm not going to stop challenging people trying to say this effect isn't real.
That's cool you went and played somewhere else and had an experience that makes you feel the way you do. But consider for a moment that I have also played a long time here, with different players and different mods but also many of the same people. And I've definitely seen how things have changed or not changed here. Which is relevant to the game on *this* site. I don't think the people complaining are wrong in their complaints. And I don't think your experience elsewhere supports saying they're wrong.
It does start to feel like certain people are friends and feel comfortable reading one another, and then start to put in less effort engaging with others to correctly read the more challenging people. And this will effectively make it that the village blocc is just a few people and others are frequent misyeets. And since the few will be village 80% of the time, that strategy may work fairly well for that group. But it kinda sucks for the rest.
And in turn, the better you are at projecting villageyness, the more that becomes part of your meta to the extent that players unintentionally start coding you village as soon as you post. But that doesn't happen just 'cuz. The association has to be built up. And it could be broken down if the player stopped sounding so villagey. That's why it's a continuing skill.
Also known as the "samac profile picture phenomenon."
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I think that's part of it. Posting more also gives you more of a chance to form connections with other players. When you form connections, even if they aren't always super positive ones, it makes people think harder about voting for you. Even if you can't be around all the time, if you're contributing meaningful content when you are, you're more likely to get village read for effort.
And in my opinion that works just as well for wolves as it does for villagers. Sure, you increase your chance of putting your foot in your mouth, but the gains in appearing to care about solving the game, the gains in thread control, those are the things that win games against strong villages. We aren't currently playing in a site culture where wolves can lurk and win, as far as I can tell.
I get what you're saying but I don't think the tendency of bloccing a key group is based on friendship. Consider: mkg and weagle are really good friends IRL, but they voted for each other this game (and were opposing affs). I really like stoat and fluff, but I think they're both inherently sus and I'm perfectly willing to vote them. Obviously I have a soft spot for True though, RIP that.
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Add that Sporty and I are literally best friends and yet she wants me dead every game lol
I think the closest we came to this was Mountains, and the only reason that almost worked was because the living villagers were mostly just yelling at each other instead of yelling at the wolves.
And even then, village still won ultimately.
There's certainly a tendency for vocal players to agree-- or argue-- more with each other, simply because, for instance, I like to camp the thread all the time, and so I'll respond to essentially everyone. If there's only a couple people camping, they're going to spend a lot more time talking to each other. That can be a good thing if they agree each other is village, or a bad thing if one incorrectly tunnels the other.
Or if they're both wolves and have thread control.
The problem is you don't know how it feels to play against yourselves and how the conformity gets enforced.
And this is a group game. Dismissing some people's views and feelings doesn't make it more inclusive.
Instead of suggesting others need to change their game, one could take responsibility for adjusting one's own play to be more inclusive and to improve your reads of other players.
And this is a group game. Dismissing some people's views and feelings doesn't make it more inclusive.
Instead of suggesting others need to change their game, one could take responsibility for adjusting one's own play to be more inclusive and to improve your reads of other players.
supershorty
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I have no idea how my saying "it's frustrating that people constantly devalue a particular skill and reduce it to 'it's a popularity contest!'" is "suggesting others need to change their game." or otherwise dunking on them.
But whatever.
Not worth it.
But whatever.
Not worth it.
Unless you live in the African savannas.I don't think it's exactly lazy thinking. If you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra.
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I'm saying that we have done that. I mean, maybe not me as much as I could, because I'm bad at the whole wolfhunting thing, but the evidence is there. If people are getting misyeeted less often that means the others are getting better at reading them. And I think that those who do get misyeeted game after game should take some responsibility for recognizing how their playstyle might be difficult to read and make adjustments, just as those responsible for misyeeting them should consider how they could try to read them better. I think there is evidence for both already occurring.
The only reason it's insulting, is to suggest that because you get village read because you're good at getting village read, is the implication that it makes invalid the feelings of people who feel it isn't merely that player's villagey-ness but also cliqueishness. And I don't see why both can't actually be true.
Being village read on another site is not actually proof against bias operating on this site, is my point.
I don't think that's what shorty thinks or intends to communicate but I understand if that's how you feel. Will respond after work or maybe message you privately, since there are feelings here worth unpacking. On some level it seems like you dragged a whole separate argument in by coding the bussing discussion as a cloak for wider grievances you have.
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It's at least proof that any bias that might exist is not actually contributing as much as you're trying to say it is, Cray. I don't see how you're missing how insulting it is to directly devalue the time and effort that people put into the game to get village read by saying it's just because of some clique behavior.
Hey, that's totally fair. I definitely don't mean to insult people who are just genuinely good. That's great. I don't mean to put down the fact that they're taking time and effort.
It maybe has less to do with, some people are off limits to discuss, and in some ways that maybe some people tend to be picked on or ignored.
But when people ignore someone, it shouldn't be surprising that the people doing the ignoring don't notice this is what they're doing. That it's the chronically ignored that would be the ones sensitive to the fact they are in fact being ignored. Same with people feeling picked on.
People in a clique rarely perceive that they are in one. People not in the clique tend to be very painfully aware that this is so. How do you account for that? I think this makes a lot of sense that this is how it happens. So when the issue of cliques comes up, rather than the people who are being told they are in one telling the people they feel they aren't that the clique doesn't exist, maybe they need to actually recognize their ability to recognize that they are in a clique is not going to be where the people feeling excluded is at.
My point is not that these things are binary. Like, it's only true that people are being given a pass, or it's only true that they just really are that good. Like, more than one thing can be true at the same time.
But my big gripe all the time is people operating with a bias not seeing that they're operating with a bias.
When some people feel very heard, it might come as a surprise to hear how much other people don't feel heard. That doesn't actually mean the people not feeling heard are actually being heard, however. This is probably one of those things, where we need to seriously consider the complaints and how we might address them, rather than insisting that the people complaining have nothing to complain about.
Speaking ~only for myself~, could you let me know (here or in messages) things that I could productively do to make you feel more like you're not being personally pushed out of a friendly bubble when I am playing? Because I do think your feelings are important
Honestly I feel the issue the least from many of the newer players, which is part of why I do feel like there is some bias or cliqueness or whatever happening. I don't feel like newer players are bowing to what I have to say, which isn't what I'm looking for, but I bring up to say that me feeling heard isn't about, OK then everyone does what I say/agrees/goes along with me. But I do feel like somehow it gets acknowledged in a productive way, like people can still go against you without one feeling dismissed. And I really appreciate you making this post response.
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I don't really know how to reconcile the two thoughts tbh. I understand you feel you're not being heard, but I don't actually see how this was the case this game, except for when you literally weren't here. I had you in my village blocc until we reached a point where I needed to consider who in my village blocc didn't fit anymore because of mechanics. I am not trying to make a dig at you because I know **** happens and life gets busy, but consider how difficult it is to choose to vote for someone who is here and defending themselves vs someone who is not in a situation like that.
The best thing to do to look at it objectively I think would be to look at games where the same people you're talking about were wolves and say, okay, did it seem like there was a bias towards reading them village despite them being super wolfy.
Well, samac was voted out the last two times she was a wolf. So that's out. In one of those same games, AM was shot, resurrected, forced to bus her packmate, and had to fight really hard to win in the end, and none of the people who I assume you're including in the clique you're referring to were there to support her. I haven't won a wolf game since last year. shorty hasn't wolfed here in forever. So I am struggling to see what it is that is upsetting you. It's not like anyone is riding along to easy wolf victories because their friends are reading them village.
Yes, some of us are close friends. That is natural. If you've felt left out somehow I am sorry for that. You have always been welcome to join in the activities that go on outside SDN. Otherwise I just don't really understand what it is that you want people to do here. Is it really that important to you that shorty or samac (or me or AM or Zenge or True or whoever else doesn't often get voted out) get misyeeted sometimes? Why?
Here's the thing, is that often the coding for whether or not you seem village, partly seems to be, how much are you seen agreeing with or disagreeing with certain players. And that means you can't oppose them or push them. This can mean very frustrating wolf AND village losses.
This kind of village consensus like this, also does lead to village losses even (RvB, HZD, 10th Ann). There was a certain resistance, or a certain weighing of some players against another, not for reasons of affiliation, that led to those losses.
I'm only familiar with one of the games you mentioned (10th anniversary of course), but I think it's rarely so cut and dry as to say this reason is concretely why village lost.
10th anniversary had an interesting/fun mechanic where village could unknowingly contribute to a scum faction. That is rarely the case. And while you're correct many people weren't listening to your concerns about the stumps (me being one of them), I don't think that is conclusively why the skeleton army won. Zenge is a really good WW player, period, and he was able to skate between getting NK'd and getting yoten despite being the "head" of the stump legion. It isn't that you did a bad job conveying your concerns, but that Zenge did a really good job flying under the radar.
And that's just it. The presence of a "samac pfpp" just proves there is a bias. Many people mentioned it in 10th Ann. That the exact same point out of one person's mouth would be weighed differently depending on who it came from, early in the game when there are the least data points on anything and we were were voting a non-yeet, so something not very crucial. So in some ways, at that point in the game, there was really no good reason to listen to anything samac said more than anything mkg said. But people acknowledged out of the gate feeling differently about a comment depending on where you thought it came from rather than where it actually did.
This happens all the time, where a point is made but it is never seriously considered unless a certain other player makes it. Noobs have complained about this before although I can't speak for if that complaint exists now.
What really makes me sad, is that we have these NK courtesy rules for people who modded or whatever, when we've effectively even admitted that some wolf packs have no hope of winning if they don't NK a certain group of players, yet they're still supposed to stay their hand, and then I don't always see people resisting their yeet instincts and driving off certain other players. I used to be very gung ho yeah let's yeet the noobs, but when someone says they feel picked on, I just lose my zest for their early yeet until I have more data points. The same mindset we claim we want in wolves picking their early NKs, we should maybe see in villagers yeeting.
At some point I was made aware that my play style was very anti-noob and driving people off and hurting them. So I tried to adjust. And now I find the main players taking what I have to say seriously are the noobs. So I am trying to be more pro-noob.
It makes me sad many of the players who seem to have been driven off. Yeah many of us take the game seriously and are competitive, but some others have been driven off because they didn't play a certain way.
We have to resist any urge to yeet or not yeet the same people over and over, because the statistics do not share our biases.
Not gonna say there haven't been gains, like with cubs.
For me it's a number of things, really.
And you are also not acknowledging how much time and effort other people put in, and yet for reasons they cannot understand except for what I've said, they are still ignored or not heard.
You're right, but that's my point: we associate certain players with being very village because they have played very strong, pro-village games in the past and/or are some of the strongest village voices. This doesn't mean other players who don't have that sort of association are bad. But I think the point can be that sounding very village is part of some people's metas and is something they have been actively working to cultivate.
Let's return to genny, who you mentioned earlier. genny for whatever reason rands scum at an abnormally high rate (this would be a fun statistics project, oh my). Therefore, there's more of a scum association with her. But that doesn't mean she isn't a strong villager-- she tends to be insightful and detect wolves pretty early on. She is also a really good scum player (StardeWW probably being the brightest example, where she came under fire for potentially being the cult leader and still managed to avoid being NK'd or yoten and won the game for cult).
I guess what I'm trying to say is, just because certain people are good doesn't mean others are bad or that any faction's play is better or worse than another's. I know I'm rambling again and probably making little sense.
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I'm struggling to understand who or what situations you are even referring to. That's why I am asking for specific examples.
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Oh while I was driving to the lake this morning I passed a sign for "Magoon" real estate.
Petition to forever abbreviate mafia goon as "magoon."
Petition to forever abbreviate mafia goon as "magoon."
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Like if you're talking about RvB...well that was over a year ago. Same with HZD. Are those games still relevant now? I don't really think so. 10th anniversary, yeah people didn't listen to you about Zenge. That is probably because you were a wolf.
The main issue is that if you have a group of people that never get *mis*yeeted specifically, than for some packs or players the only path to victory is to NK those players. Which given how bitterly they then complain about it, to the point of actually causing a lot of people a lot of distress wolfing, sucks a lot of fun out for both the killers and the frequently killed. Everyone should be on the table. Everyone should be up for discussion.
My perception is that sometimes these players win games, and it isn't actually because no one questioned them or caught them, but that no one really questioned them that closely or no one really listened to the people who did.
And even if they were village, I still don't always see why it's someone else that gets misyeeted over them, except I think they may be given too much weight. I mean Dubz, how many times do you say that people shouldn't sheep you or vote with you to kill a player, and yet that happens anyway? You really think that some players are imagining that when say Midwife wants them dead, that it gets them dead? But if Midwife gives them a pass, then they live? And living and dying in this game shouldn't just be a function of someone else's reputation, reading cards aside.
I get nowhere with a lot of my pushes, and it isn't often because I'm wrong. But I'm sure it's just my play style and how I'm saying it 🙄
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Again, you're talking about things many of us already do. Fluff had multiple people move off of her d1 because she was misyeeted early in the last game she played. Others were listed as not options for d1 yeet because they hadn't played in a while or were misvoted often. This also happens every game. I wish I hadn't moved to jboo, I really do.
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Hey I would love it if people stopped sheeping my votes, particularly d1 (except for when I really really want them to). I don't really know what you expect me to do about it though, in a practical sense.
And again you're being vague but where are the specific examples of games where this is happening frequently? I already stated how few wolf wins there have been recently among the group you're talking about.
