REALITY of the merger: PD: "We went from 170 applications to 450 applications our first cycle"

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not doubting you but I'd love to see your source on this.

As soon as can find it I'll post it. It was talked about a few minutes this ago in a step/MCAT thread.

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[AnatomyGrey12]

Not doubting you but I'd love to see your source on this. I'm curious at what timepoint they're measuring clinical ability. I'm guessing as a third year student or even as an intern with a shiny new degree it might correlate, because at that point book knowledge is the main thing you have going for you. Ten, twenty, thirty years into attending-hood, I don't think your ability to answer multiple choice questions about pathophysiological zebras has much to do with your ability to care for patients.

For your enjoyment

Are United States Medical Licensing Exam Step 1 and 2 scores valid measures for postgraduate medical residency selection decisions? - PubMed - NCBI

 

[acapnial]

For your enjoyment

Are United States Medical Licensing Exam Step 1 and 2 scores valid measures for postgraduate medical residency selection decisions? - PubMed - NCBI

Im curious how they measured clinical skill acquisition

 

[DrfluffyMD]

For your enjoyment

Are United States Medical Licensing Exam Step 1 and 2 scores valid measures for postgraduate medical residency selection decisions? - PubMed - NCBI

Let's picture a world without the USMLE....

Oh wait, I know, it's like the legal world, the world of Big law jobs and firms like Skadden.

In the world of law, where you've gone to school is pretty much the only determinant of future. If you went to a "third tier toilet", you cannot ever get a big law job without serious connection, where as Yale send most of their grads into big law.

This is why I am skeptical of any research claiming step score should not be used in residency selection. Believe me, if you are a DO, removal of step score will absolutely hurt you more than help you. Right now, you can prove how good you are by being the 270 guy. Without standardized test, all DOs will be lumped into one category.

 

[jw3600]

This is perhaps most important for DOs because some of us (like myself) picked a DO acceptance over a MD acceptance. Hence don't fit into the category of MD reject.

That's your own fault. As a PD I'd fault you for making a stupid career decision.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Believe me, if you are a DO, removal of step score will absolutely hurt you more than help you.

I am NOT advocating removing it as a part in residency selection. I definitely agree that it is a way for students from lower ranked schools to throw their hat into the ring, and is a way for me to help overcome the DO bias a little by performing well. I am however, an advocate of recognizing that it doesn't correlate to actual clinical skill, and realizing that just because someone has a 270 that doesn't mean they will be better clinically than someone with a 235. Or a 235 will be better than a 220. A test score is not the end all be all, it's one reason I've always actually liked the DO method of rotating at programs to match there. You get to actually show what matters.

It should be part of residency selection no doubt, but I think sometimes it is given too much credit.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's your own fault. As a PD I'd fault you for making a stupid career decision.

So instead of asking why they made that decision, you decided that they were stupid. I'm going to go on a limb and say you're not aiming for a field with significant human interaction are you?

 

[Carbon090]

This thread though...

I keep saying this, but it's like the same crap is argued over and over.

 

[DrWhozits]

This is perhaps most important for DOs because some of us (like myself) picked a DO acceptance over a MD acceptance. Hence don't fit into the category of MD reject.

I am NOT advocating removing it as a part in residency selection. I definitely agree that it is a way for students from lower ranked schools to throw their hat into the ring, and is a way for me to help overcome the DO bias a little by performing well. I am however, an advocate of recognizing that it doesn't correlate to actual clinical skill, and realizing that just because someone has a 270 that doesn't mean they will be better clinically than someone with a 235. Or a 235 will be better than a 220. A test score is not the end all be all, it's one reason I've always actually liked the DO method of rotating at programs to match there. You get to actually show what matters.

It should be part of residency selection no doubt, but I think sometimes it is given too much credit.

I like to think about it like the NFL Combine. Sure, a 4.4 40 yard dash isn't going to guarantee that you are going to be good at your position, but it certainly gives you a good starting point.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

That's actually really ok with me. You sound like you'd be literally the worst person to work with.
And as always your contributions continue to prove invaluable.

Choosing DO over MD is valid when you have family situation etc. Just keep in mind that to a PD, it doesn't matter. They won't know your GPA or MCAT and will just assume you went to a DO school because you had to.

 

[jw3600]

So instead of asking why they made that decision, you decided that they were stupid. I'm going to go on a limb and say you're not aiming for a field with significant human interaction are you?

I have interacted with the poster before about their choice. If I remember correctly is was basically because of OMM. Seems like a poor cost benefit analysis to me.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I have interacted with the poster before about their choice. If I remember correctly is was basically because of OMM. Seems like a poor cost benefit analysis to me.

Speaking of OMM, if I ever see a candidate with good step and poor COMLEX, I'll just assume he did poorly on the OMM portion and vice versa.

 

[acapnial]

Speaking of OMM, if I ever see a candidate with good step and poor COMLEX, I'll just assume he did poorly on the OMM portion and vice versa.

The people i know that got an uncharacteristically low comlex score had huge life events near the test, like a death in the family

 

[F1rstGen]

This is perhaps most important for DOs because some of us (like myself) picked a DO acceptance over a MD acceptance. Hence don't fit into the category of MD reject.

There is no good reason to do this. Even if you had a major life event or family concerns, you can delay a year to get these issues worked out. If you wanted to be in a certain area geographically, that's also dumb because there is a good chance you will have to relocate for residency anyway. If money was the issue, the MD school puts you in a better spot to get into a high earning specialty so that's a wash.

There are two types of DO students, those that couldn't get into an MD school and those that could but have seriously flawed decision making skills.

^That's why the USMLE is a positive for DO students. They can prove that they might have attended a DO school but have learned enough medicine to be equal or better than the majority of MDs applying for the same spot. Take away the USMLE, and PDs will assume all DOs are second tier to their MD counterparts for the reason I mentioned above.

 

[F1rstGen]

So simplistic.

Exactly. Voluntarily choosing DO over MD is ill advised, period. There may be an exceptional case or two out there, but they are veeeeeery few and far between.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Exactly. Voluntarily choosing DO over MD is ill advised, period. There may be an exceptional case or two out there, but they are veeeeeery few and far between.

I know many DOs who chose DO over MD or decided to only apply DO, despite very high stats (and not only ones from this forum). There are very many reasons and unfortunately, it isn't so simple always. Some may not understand the implications of their choice, but others do.


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[DrfluffyMD]

Appreciate the input. Best of luck.

What stage of training are you in?

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Incoming M1. But a 3rd gen DO. All 4 of my siblings are DOs and no one in my family is in PC. All my siblings did ACGME training in either surg sub specialities or something "as competitive." So although I'm not a 4th year, I'd like to think I know at least a LITTLE bit about what I'm getting into.

You have a cool family. Get togethers must be fun. (Not sarcastic lol)


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[DrfluffyMD]

Lol thank you. When we all hang out, I think we regress to age 8. Not too much intellectual convos going on. But honestly that is maybe one of the reasons I feel the way I do. I'm lucky to have the experience and guidance I do. I realize that most DO students do not. And most schools don't do an adequate job of providing it.

With the connection you have it won't matter whether you do MD or DO. This is a bit different for other students.

 

[jw3600]

Incoming M1. But a 3rd gen DO. All 4 of my siblings are DOs and no one in my family is in PC. All my siblings did ACGME training in either surg sub specialities or something "as competitive." So although I'm not a 4th year, I'd like to think I know at least a LITTLE bit about what I'm getting into.

So you want to go to an ACGME residency but don't want to go to an MD school? Honestly, I don't get it. I feel like you're not really a true DO if you do an ACGME residency. You become a doctor during residency, not during medical school.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

So you want to go to an ACGME residency but don't want to go to an MD school? Honestly, I don't get it. I feel like you're not really a true DO if you do an ACGME residency. You become a doctor during residency, not during medical school.

Who knows, it doesn't matter. Personal connection will get people the furthest in medicine.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Lol thank you. When we all hang out, I think we regress to age 8. Not too much intellectual convos going on. But honestly that is maybe one of the reasons I feel the way I do. I'm lucky to have the experience and guidance I do. I realize that most DO students do not. And most schools don't do an adequate job of providing it.

That's awesome. Are any PDs?


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[TheaterOfTheme]

Unfortunately no lol my dad retired this year

What specialties do they represent?


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[CCmetal94]

There is no good reason to do this. Even if you had a major life event or family concerns, you can delay a year to get these issues worked out. If you wanted to be in a certain area geographically, that's also dumb because there is a good chance you will have to relocate for residency anyway. If money was the issue, the MD school puts you in a better spot to get into a high earning specialty so that's a wash.

There are two types of DO students, those that couldn't get into an MD school and those that could but have seriously flawed decision making skills.

^That's why the USMLE is a positive for DO students. They can prove that they might have attended a DO school but have learned enough medicine to be equal or better than the majority of MDs applying for the same spot. Take away the USMLE, and PDs will assume all DOs are second tier to their MD counterparts for the reason I mentioned above.

You sound like the type of doc that will go through at least 3 marriages.

 

[F1rstGen]

You sound like the type of doc that will go through at least 3 marriages.

Happily 5 yrs into the first/only one. Wife shares my sentiments. Maybe they have some validity?

 

[firstaidforever]

Not quite, according to the AACOMAS matriculant profile the average GPA of the class of 2020 (those who matriculated in 2016) was 3.54, which is pretty low for most MD schools even at the low tier (HBCUs not included).

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-s...riculant-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=10




That doesn't make sense at all when you consider the vast majority of matriculants at DO schools are already White and Asian.

Anyway, we don't have to speculate because the data's right there. The average White matriculant to a DO school had an MCAT of about 502, while Asians were 503 - neither of which are "MD stats".

UCLA and Loyola had an average of 505 last cycle.

Not that far off at all. Especially given that a bunch of DO schools (namely the Touros) have class average of 508.

 

[firstaidforever]

I'm a 3.6 with 33 MCAT and no red flags besides an UG that's not well-known outside of its region. **** happens man.

Same. I had a low 1st year undergrad and that was enough to keep out of my state school. My other friend with 3.5/34 is at DO as well. Meanwhile our third friend with 3.3/27 is on a full scholarship at Rush (although it's a minority scholarship).

Things arent always cut and dry like people like to think. If stats are everything, is a DO with a 250 then better than >50% of Harvards class?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

UCLA and Loyola had an average of 505 last cycle.

Not that far off at all. Especially given that a bunch of DO schools (namely the Touros) have class average of 508.

Trust me, a UCLA med student with 505 and a Touro student with 505 will be world's apart in their CV.

Plus, UCLA's low average is probably due to accepting some people with low MCAT which drag down the average.

 

[firstaidforever]

Trust me, a UCLA med student with 505 and a Touro student with 505 will be world's apart in their CV.

Plus, UCLA's low average is probably due to accepting some people with low MCAT which drag down the average.

The 505 is their median. I wasn't accurate in choosing my words in the first post.

And I get that their CVs are generally different, but there is still overlap and luck. My classmates all shared similar stories at the beginning of med school, "I interviewed at UCI/USC/Georgetown/MSU" Out of 40000 applicants to MDs, enough will easily fall into the overlooked/unlucky/late applicant pool and get snatched up by the better located DO schools.

If you look at the average CV of Touro-CA vs a random MD school, like Loyola, I bet we can go toe-to-toe with them.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

UCLA and Loyola had an average of 505 last cycle.

Not that far off at all. Especially given that a bunch of DO schools (namely the Touros) have class average of 508.

In the case of UCLA, their average gets decreased by the fact that they have a pipeline programme specifically geared towards URMs who want to serve in underprivileged communities and they often take applicants with lower stats. The MCAT average of UCLAs main programme is definitely not 505.

Can't comment on Loyola since I know little about them.

 

[shadowlightfox]

I think the surgical subspecialties will tank hard for many DO students unless they seek out opportunities and connections to programs and or obtain comparable applications ( DOs with 240s and multiple publications). Or maybe it won't.

I wonder truly how many DOs there are with stats that actually parallel the average orthopedic applicant.

That sucks to hear if the merger is supposed to allow us DOs to be on an even footing ground with MDs.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

That sucks to hear if the merger is supposed to allow us DOs to be on an even footing ground with MDs.

I mean it's supposed to make your residency training on an even ground, which arguably matters more.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Before the merger, a DO can get into ortho, derm, NS fairly easily if he/she works hard on audition rotations. After the merger it would be more difficult.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

In the case of UCLA, their average gets decreased by the fact that they have a pipeline programme specifically geared towards URMs who want to serve in underprivileged communities and they often take applicants with lower stats. The MCAT average of UCLAs main programme is definitely not 505.

Can't comment on Loyola since I know little about them.

Nope, over in pre-allo this was discussed heavily and someone ran a statistical analysis on the numbers and the pipeline program cannot account for the matriculant median reported. And it was also suspect that the PRIME program was even included in that number.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Nope, over in pre-allo this was discussed heavily and someone ran a statistical analysis on the numbers and the pipeline program cannot account for the matriculant median reported. And it was also suspect that the PRIME program was even included in that number.

People really have too much time on their hands...

 

[surfguy84]

No school makes you repeat an entire year for just failing one class. Your friends are not telling you the entire story.

I can tell you 100% yes they do. I have several people in my current class (who were a year ahead of me) who failed OMM theory and had to repeat everything with my class.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

People really have too much time on their hands...

No argument on that account. I guess it's what happens when you get a bunch of neurotic students that have nothing to do but count down the days until med school starts

 

[RadGod1]

Despite the many MD applicants with "STRATOSPHERIC" scores that applied to Broward's ortho program this year, they still filled completely with DO students. All were from NSU-COM.

http://osteopathic.nova.edu/do/images/2017_residency_ placements.pdf

 

[IslandStyle808]

Despite the many MD applicants with "STRATOSPHERIC" scores that applied to Broward's ortho program this year, they still filled completely with DO students. All were from NSU-COM.

http://osteopathic.nova.edu/do/images/2017_residency_ placements.pdf

Well, that's inbreeding for ya...

 

[DrMcLovin]

Despite the many MD applicants with "STRATOSPHERIC" scores that applied to Broward's ortho program this year, they still filled completely with DO students. All were from NSU-COM.

http://osteopathic.nova.edu/do/images/2017_residency_ placements.pdf

Probably won't be the case this year since they're only participating in the MD match according to ERAS. I'm assuming most DO applicants still won't be bypassing the osteopathic match at this point.

 

[hallowmann]

I agree with you that it doesn't mean on an individual basis that someone can't be competitive. Everyone will have to earn their spots, I'm not even considering DO bias here since I'm talking about MD students taking competitive former-AOA spots.

The issue is a DO student can't simply snap their fingers and make opportunities arise out of thin air. MD students have an infinitely greater number of resources. They have mentors for every specialty, they have every imaginable research topic available, they have curricula without OMM to clog up time, etc etc etc. The fact of the matter is the resources are hard to come by, even if you compare the best DO schools to "low tier" MD schools, that disparity exists.

There are plenty of MD schools that don't have all specialties, but yes, generally, MD students have far more opportunities for mentors and research than DO students. That said, for anyone willing to put in the effort to look, they are available. Sure it's not built into the curriculum, but if you want to participate in research there are tons of programs going on.

My god are we gonna bicker about the degree of "vastly?" 95% of DO students are there because they couldn't get into MD schools. As a population, there's a pretty clear margin. And if "most DOs" falling within 1 SD, means 20% above, 60% below, and the other 20% further below then 1 SD, then haven't you supported my claim?

I believe the percentage is closer to 75-80% based on AACOM surveys, and I buy that based on my own anecdotal experiences.

It could certainly vary depending on school though. A DO school surrounded by MD schools in a DO-unfriendly region with barely any AOA residency programs will most likely have more of the "forced to go DO" group.

This is kinda shortsighted, and I'm surprised that a residency trained physician puts this much stock in a simple number.

Yes, boards are important but making them the be all and end all is a sure fire way to end up with a batch of residents that are book smart and hospital dumb.

Yeah, but most med students don't "just" do well on the steps, they likely do well on clinicals, have research, and interview OK to well.

I think what DrFluffy is referring to is all else being equal, a higher step in and of itself is enough to be excited about one candidate and not about another. I'm sure if they came off as a tool/particularly awkward during interviews and had poor 3rd year clinical grades a slightly higher step wouldn't make up for it.

Yet it is the thing we have as DO students the most control over. DO school in general give these rotations that under prepare students for residency. Of course, students can catch up during 4th year, but then its too late...

I don't know man. Judging by the way my residency is holding my hand through everything in the beginning here (at a decent university ACGME institution) I'm starting to suspect that rotation experience is so variable for med students in general, that I doubt we're really all that behind.

I think it's more that some programs are better at transitioning from student to resident, and most likely some incoming residents are as well.

Sure if you were at a school/hospital that treated the student like a resident, I could see it being a huge advantage, but I honestly don't know if there are that many places like that anymore, especially given the MD programs I'm somewhat familiar with.

There is no good reason to do this. Even if you had a major life event or family concerns, you can delay a year to get these issues worked out. If you wanted to be in a certain area geographically, that's also dumb because there is a good chance you will have to relocate for residency anyway. If money was the issue, the MD school puts you in a better spot to get into a high earning specialty so that's a wash.

There are two types of DO students, those that couldn't get into an MD school and those that could but have seriously flawed decision making skills.

^That's why the USMLE is a positive for DO students. They can prove that they might have attended a DO school but have learned enough medicine to be equal or better than the majority of MDs applying for the same spot. Take away the USMLE, and PDs will assume all DOs are second tier to their MD counterparts for the reason I mentioned above.

Yeah. You're wrong. There may not be a good reason for you, but you know nothing about the situation others are in. Some people can't leave the geographical area unless they don't mind missing the last couple years of a family member's life. Others have spouses that can't leave for a couple years.

Also, while its true most people move for residency, a lot can happen in 4 years, and situations may be much easier then. Alternatively, lots of people actually do stay in the same region for residency. It's not too hard if you're in an area with a lot of programs in the field you want and a moderately competitive app.

So you want to go to an ACGME residency but don't want to go to an MD school? Honestly, I don't get it. I feel like you're not really a true DO if you do an ACGME residency. You become a doctor during residency, not during medical school.

enlighten us to what a true DO is brother. Must I attend an AOA program and perform OMM on at least every 3rd patient before I can proudly wear the D.O. title on my chest?

 

[ortnakas]

I think we all forgot that the point of the merger was to standardize GME, not standardize our chances of getting into GME. In the short term that sucks for people who wanted subspecialties and are going to have a hard time getting them in ACGME vs. AOA, but in the long term it might make us all better-trained doctors in the end, and that would be a good thing.

enlighten us to what a true DO is brother. Must I attend an AOA program and perform OMM on at least every 3rd patient before I can proudly wear the D.O. title on my chest?

While flinging your osteopathic banner to the breeze, of course. (Good luck starting off your residency by the way!)

 

[jw3600]

enlighten us to what a true DO is brother. Must I attend an AOA program and perform OMM on at least every 3rd patient before I can proudly wear the D.O. title on my chest?

I don't know. Do you not see my point though?

 

[Back 5]

I had rotations with students from UCLA. I was very much having to hide my jealousy after hearing their stories of classroom education as well as the quality of didactics during 3rd year. There was no comparison. UCLA better prepared their students for both step 1 and step 2 over my DO school. Hands down.

 

[Peach Newport]

Despite the many MD applicants with "STRATOSPHERIC" scores that applied to Broward's ortho program this year, they still filled completely with DO students. All were from NSU-COM.

http://osteopathic.nova.edu/do/images/2017_residency_ placements.pdf

WOMP WOMP

 

[SLC]

I had rotations with students from UCLA. I was very much having to hide my jealousy after hearing their stories of classroom education as well as the quality of didactics during 3rd year. There was no comparison. UCLA better prepared their students for both step 1 and step 2 over my DO school. Hands down.

What do you think this translates to in the real world? Do you think the average UCLA grad is significantly better than the average grad from your school as an intern?

Because I'll bet there's no appreciable difference in the eyes of the PD once everyone's there and starts working.

 

[W19]

I had rotations with students from UCLA. I was very much having to hide my jealousy after hearing their stories of classroom education as well as the quality of didactics during 3rd year. There was no comparison. UCLA better prepared their students for both step 1 and step 2 over my DO school. Hands down.

Did you even have to say that?

 

[W19]

What do you think this translates to in the real world? Do you think the average UCLA grad is significantly better than the average grad from your school as an intern?

Because I'll bet there's no appreciable difference in the eyes of the PD once everyone's there and starts working.

You cannot be serious! You don't think better 3rd/4th year translates to better intern.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

What do you think this translates to in the real world? Do you think the average UCLA grad is significantly better than the average grad from your school as an intern?

Because I'll bet there's no appreciable difference in the eyes of the PD once everyone's there and starts working.

Rooofl. I can tell you right now not only better 3rd and 4th years translate into being a better intern, better residency program translate into a better attending. I am a senior rads resident who is working with an AOA rads resident. He is reading at half as much volume as I am and I am carrying the service.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What do you think this translates to in the real world? Do you think the average UCLA grad is significantly better than the average grad from your school as an intern?

Because I'll bet there's no appreciable difference in the eyes of the PD once everyone's there and starts working.

I think pretending that there aren't going to be differences in the knowledge bases of different graduates of schools probably isn't right. That being said I doubt any non top 10 school will have students as well trained and exposed as UCLA.