REALITY of the merger: PD: "We went from 170 applications to 450 applications our first cycle"

[Bynumite17]

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I've always been a glass half-empty guy, but on this issue I'm not. I have yet to hear a compelling argument for how this is bad for DOs not pursuing a surgerical sub (so most)

Pretty much anyone wanting something other than FM or PM&R or community IM is going to be at a disadvantage. It opens the floodgates to applicants that will have higher board scores and greater research and other involvement. So yeah, in a sense the merger could lead to 10-15 years down the road of more DOs into true primary care.

 

[DrWhozits]

Pretty much anyone wanting something other than FM or PM&R or community IM is going to be at a disadvantage. It opens the floodgates to applicants that will have higher board scores and greater research and other involvement. So yeah, in a sense the merger could lead to 10-15 years down the road of more DOs into true primary care.

You have to show your work. You can not just say, competition = all DOs in primary care. What about the half of DO applicants who match into ACGME programs every year? How are they effected? What about the majority of DOs who match AOA in fields that MDs will not be rushing for (i.e. IM, rads, anesthesia, OB/GYN, etc.)?

Regarding the surgical subs and derm: I get that we are DO students, and it sucks that some bias exists...however, at what point do we recognize we are not entitled to those spots? If a former AOA ortho program gets two applications, 1 from an MD with a 245, tons of research and AOA (no idea why this guy is applying to this program) and a DO with a 520 COMLEX and no research; why would the DO deserve the spot? Is this not the same bias in reverse?

I understand that those gunning for the uber specialities will see the loss of some "protected" spots, but this does not mean that all of a sudden these programs will start being biased against DOs. It will mean that DO applicants will have to step up their game to at least approximate the level of competition of the newly eligible MDs. This is where I feel lost, because if you want a super competitive specialty, then be super competitive.

 

[Bynumite17]

You have to show your work. You can not just say, competition = all DOs in primary care. What about the half of DO applicants who match into ACGME programs every year? How are they effected? What about the majority of DOs who match AOA in fields that MDs will not be rushing for (i.e. IM, rads, anesthesia, OB/GYN, etc.)?

Regarding the surgical subs and derm: I get that we are DO students, and it sucks that some bias exists...however, at what point do we recognize we are not entitled to those spots? If a former AOA ortho program gets two applications, 1 from an MD with a 245, tons of research and AOA (no idea why this guy is applying to this program) and a DO with a 520 COMLEX and no research; why would the DO deserve the spot? Is this not the same bias in reverse?

I understand that those gunning for the uber specialities will see the loss of some "protected" spots, but this does not mean that all of a sudden these programs will start being biased against DOs. It will mean that DO applicants will have to step up their game to at least approximate the level of competition of the newly eligible MDs. This is where I feel lost, because if you want a super competitive specialty, then be super competitive.

I agree with you that it doesn't mean on an individual basis that someone can't be competitive. Everyone will have to earn their spots, I'm not even considering DO bias here since I'm talking about MD students taking competitive former-AOA spots.

The issue is a DO student can't simply snap their fingers and make opportunities arise out of thin air. MD students have an infinitely greater number of resources. They have mentors for every specialty, they have every imaginable research topic available, they have curricula without OMM to clog up time, etc etc etc. The fact of the matter is the resources are hard to come by, even if you compare the best DO schools to "low tier" MD schools, that disparity exists.

 

[DrWhozits]

I agree with you that it doesn't mean on an individual basis that someone can't be competitive. Everyone will have to earn their spots, I'm not even considering DO bias here since I'm talking about MD students taking competitive former-AOA spots.

The issue is a DO student can't simply snap their fingers and make opportunities arise out of thin air. MD students have an infinitely greater number of resources. They have mentors for every specialty, they have every imaginable research topic available, they have curricula without OMM to clog up time, etc etc etc. The fact of the matter is the resources are hard to come by, even if you compare the best DO schools to "low tier" MD schools, that disparity exists.

On that point, I agree with you completely. We as DO students are at a tremendous disadvantage in that regard. Whether or not that is true, does not equate with DOs will be only primary care. That seems like a worst-case scenario that would need a multitude of other factors on top of the merger in order to occur.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

they have curricula without OMM to clog up time, etc etc etc.

I spent a total of 68 hours TOTAL for OMM during all of year 1, which includes lab time, time watching lectures on 2x speed, reading the textbook, and studying for 4 exams. On the flip side, I think my Neuro total was more than 180 hours and I retained significantly more OMM than Neuro. OMM shouldn't be a time sink unless you forget anatomy.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

DOs are not as competitive as MDs overall and so a lot of them will be pushed into less competitive residencies and even programs.[/QUOTE]

I spent a total of 68 hours TOTAL for OMM during all of year 1, which includes lab time, time watching lectures on 2x speed, reading the textbook, and studying for 4 exams. On the flip side, I think my Neuro total was more than 180 hours and I retained significantly more OMM than Neuro. OMM shouldn't be a time sink unless you forget anatomy.

I spent about 8 to 10 hours per OS competency alone. I spent easily over 100 hours per semester on OS.

 

[jw3600]

You have to show your work. You can not just say, competition = all DOs in primary care. What about the half of DO applicants who match into ACGME programs every year? How are they effected? What about the majority of DOs who match AOA in fields that MDs will not be rushing for (i.e. IM, rads, anesthesia, OB/GYN, etc.)?

Regarding the surgical subs and derm: I get that we are DO students, and it sucks that some bias exists...however, at what point do we recognize we are not entitled to those spots? If a former AOA ortho program gets two applications, 1 from an MD with a 245, tons of research and AOA (no idea why this guy is applying to this program) and a DO with a 520 COMLEX and no research; why would the DO deserve the spot? Is this not the same bias in reverse?

I understand that those gunning for the uber specialities will see the loss of some "protected" spots, but this does not mean that all of a sudden these programs will start being biased against DOs. It will mean that DO applicants will have to step up their game to at least approximate the level of competition of the newly eligible MDs. This is where I feel lost, because if you want a super competitive specialty, then be super competitive.

You do realize that on the whole the DO population is vastly inferior to the MD population? If all students are put into one population, the more competitive stuff is going to shift towards the MDs. The more competitive stuff is generally not primary care. Hence the amount of DOs going into primary care will for sure increase. No one said all. Calm down.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is what it is. I think overall it's better to have one unified system with accountability for ****ty programs. It's just not good for me. This year.

Also it's one step closer to permanently removing OMM (or at least significantly downsizing) from higher education.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You do realize that on the whole the DO population is vastly inferior to the MD population? If all students are put into one population, the more competitive stuff is going to shift towards the MDs. The more competitive stuff is generally not primary care. Hence the amount of DOs going into primary care will for sure increase. No one said all. Calm down.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is what it is. I think overall it's better to have one unified system with accountability for ****ty programs. It's just not good for me. This year.

Also it's one step closer to permanently removing OMM (or at least significantly downsizing) from higher education.

Inferior? Sure. Vastly? No.

Most DOs would fall into 1 SD of the general MD student population without much issue.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Inferior? Sure. Vastly? No.

Most DOs would fall into 1 SD of the general MD student population without much issue.

Agreed, there is a lot of overlap between the quality of student at a lower tier MD school and the established DO schools. I know far too many 3.7/30 applicants from my undergrad at DO schools to think the two pools are really that much different.

 

[jw3600]

Inferior? Sure. Vastly? No.

Most DOs would fall into 1 SD of the general MD student population without much issue.

My god are we gonna bicker about the degree of "vastly?" 95% of DO students are there because they couldn't get into MD schools. As a population, there's a pretty clear margin. And if "most DOs" falling within 1 SD, means 20% above, 60% below, and the other 20% further below then 1 SD, then haven't you supported my claim?

 

[W19]

Agreed, there is a lot of overlap between the quality of student at a lower tier MD school and the established DO schools. I know far too many 3.7/30 applicants from my undergrad at DO schools to think the two pools are really that much different.

I bet that the 3.7 GPA (with no grade replacement) and 30 MCAT is less than 20% of the DO population... Let's not kid ourselves here!

 

[DrWhozits]

You do realize that on the whole the DO population is vastly inferior to the MD population? If all students are put into one population, the more competitive stuff is going to shift towards the MDs. The more competitive stuff is generally not primary care. Hence the amount of DOs going into primary care will for sure increase. No one said all. Calm down.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is what it is. I think overall it's better to have one unified system with accountability for ****ty programs. It's just not good for me. This year.

Also it's one step closer to permanently removing OMM (or at least significantly downsizing) from higher education.

I'm not sure if serious or not...?

I'm saying it is a good thing overall. Also I never said anything about DO students being better or worse or anything. I think that based on undergrad sure, but after that, it's largely up to the individual.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

My god are we gonna bicker about the degree of "vastly?" 95% of DO students are there because they couldn't get into MD schools. As a population, there's a pretty clear margin. And if "most DOs" falling within 1 SD, means 20% above, 60% below, and the other 20% further below then 1 SD, then haven't you supported my claim?

And what about it? What are we quantifying as inferiority here? An average difference in usmle score probably less than 5%?

I mean, idk why there even needs to be talks about superiority or inferiority at all to begin with when the discussions are literally within such a conservative range of numbers that have in terms of absolute value very small differences.

 

[jw3600]

I'm not sure if serious or not...?

I'm saying it is a good thing overall. Also I never said anything about DO students being better or worse or anything. I think that based on undergrad sure, but after that, it's largely up to the individual.

I meant DOs being shunted to primary care. I spaced it weirdly.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Can we go back to the original post. Does anyone know of any other formerly DO programs that took MDs this round?

 

[Carbon090]

I bet that the 3.7 GPA (with no grade replacement) and 30 MCAT is less than 20% of the DO population... Let's not kid ourselves here!

I know of four, including me, with those stats attending my school.

Admissions is brutal, you simply have to work harder, but that is fine with me.

 

[jw3600]

I know of four, including me, with those stats attending my school.

Admissions is brutal, you simply have to work harder, but that is fine with me.

Look I never agree with w19. Check my post history. He/she is right though. That's a solid DO student and less than the average MD student. How much god damn DO kool aid do you guys drink?

 

[Carbon090]

Look I never agree with w19. Check my post history. He/she is right though. That's a solid DO student and less than the average MD student. How much god damn DO kool aid do you guys drink?

Not sure what you're implying with DO kool aid, but zero. Simply responded with peeps I know with stats like that. Nor did I ever make an argument in regards to the comparison of DO vs MD quality. Frankly, it's a silly argument that I have no desire to get into.

 

[W19]

I know of four, including me, with those stats attending my school.

Admissions is brutal, you simply have to work harder, but that is fine with me.

How many students are in your class? >200... People with high stats usually volunteer to share their stats unprompted... That's probably why you know 4 in your class.

I was not saying that DO students are not smart, but the truth of the matter is people (90%+) go to DO school because they don't have the stats for MD. I would have attended a DO school over my MD if the COA were similar. I have no bias against DO...

 

[W19]

Let's be real here, tons of white and asian DO students most definitely had "MD stats".... Probably wanna change that viewpoint of yours to reflect reality.

Well, I wonder why the average MCAT is still 26-27... It might not be 'tons' then... I guess the MCAT distribution for DO students is really bimodal... A bunch of blacks/hispanics with 23 (which represent ~15% of DO students), and the tons of caucasians/asians with 30+ MCAT...

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Agreed, there is a lot of overlap between the quality of student at a lower tier MD school and the established DO schools. I know far too many 3.7/30 applicants from my undergrad at DO schools to think the two pools are really that much different.

Not quite, according to the AACOMAS matriculant profile the average GPA of the class of 2020 (those who matriculated in 2016) was 3.54, which is pretty low for most MD schools even at the low tier (HBCUs not included).

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-s...riculant-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=10

Let's be real here, tons of white and asian DO students most definitely had "MD stats".... Probably wanna change that viewpoint of yours to reflect reality.

That doesn't make sense at all when you consider the vast majority of matriculants at DO schools are already White and Asian.

Anyway, we don't have to speculate because the data's right there. The average White matriculant to a DO school had an MCAT of about 502, while Asians were 503 - neither of which are "MD stats".

 

[Mr Roboto]

I bet that the 3.7 GPA (with no grade replacement) and 30 MCAT is less than 20% of the DO population... Let's not kid ourselves here!

I'm a 3.6 with 33 MCAT and no red flags besides an UG that's not well-known outside of its region. **** happens man.

 

[W19]

I'm a 3.6 with 33 MCAT and no red flags besides an UG that's not well-known outside of its region. **** happens man.

see post #382 (just above yours)

 

[Doctor_Strange]

lol which D.O. schools spoon-feed their students with USMLE style questions on their exams? Name names please because that sure as hell isn't the case with my school.

I've been told LECOM does a good job towards USMLE style exams.

 

[W19]

Sure it does, dawg. A- I never said there weren't tons of white and asian students with less than that, did I superstar? B- I would consider at least 1250 med students a ton (not to mention the 55% of students who had a 25-29 mcat, of which, it's impossible to tell what amount had what in that range). Maybe you wouldn't. That's cool but I wasn't talking to you so I really could not care less what you have to say. Further, who tf was talking about "averages" 😕 lol: it's as if you didn't actually read what I wrote. C- Let's not pretend there aren't a whole swath of US MD students who got in with less than a 3.7/30, which would further shoot up that 1250 conservative estimate of DO students with "MD caliber stats." Unless your position is that these US MD students don't have MD caliber stats then lol ok good talk.

Where did you get that 1250? The table I was looking at says ~600 matriculants have a 507+ mcat...

Why are you so angry?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not quite, according to the AACOMAS matriculant profile the average GPA of the class of 2020 (those who matriculated in 2016) was 3.54, which is pretty low for most MD schools even at the low tier (HBCUs not included).

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-s...riculant-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=10




That doesn't make sense at all when you consider the vast majority of matriculants at DO schools are already White and Asian.

Anyway, we don't have to speculate because the data's right there. The average White matriculant to a DO school had an MCAT of about 502, while Asians were 503 - neither of which are "MD stats".

Notice I said the established schools. There are a good amount of DO schools (KCU, DMU, MSU, PCOM, CCOM etc) who all have averages at 3.6+/505+. All of the people I know with ~3.6/507+ type stats are all at these types of schools. At these schools there is significant overlap with their students and those that get accepted to the Drexels, Loyolas, and other low tier MD privates. This isn't even getting into state schools that often have averages at or lower than these numbers. There is more a lot more overlap than some would like to believe.

 

[W19]

Notice I said the established schools. There are a good amount of DO schools (KCU, DMU, MSU, PCOM, CCOM etc) who all have averages at 3.6+/505+. All of the people I know with ~3.6/507+ type stats are all at these types of schools. At these schools there is significant overlap with their students and those that get accepted to the Drexels, Loyolas, and other low tier MD privates. This isn't even getting into state schools that often have averages at or lower than these numbers. There is more a lot more overlap than some would like to believe.

When I was applying in 2013-2014, these two schools stats were 3.7 GPA and 31 MCAT according to MSAR. I guess their stats have dropped considerably...

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Sure it does, dawg. A- I never said there weren't tons of white and asian students with less than that, did I? B- I would consider at least 1500 med students a ton (not to mention the 55% of students who had a 25-29 mcat, of which, it's impossible to tell what amount had what in that range). Maybe you wouldn't. Further, who was talking about "averages" 😕 ..... C- Let's not pretend there aren't a whole swath of US MD students who got in with less than a 3.7/30, which would further shoot up that 1500 conservative estimate of DO students with "MD caliber stats." Unless your position is that these US MD students don't have MD caliber stats?

hmmm...deliberately using vague, meaningless terms so nobody can call you out when you aren't making sense, eh?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

When I was applying in 2013-2014, these two schools stats were 3.7 GPA and 31 MCAT according to MSAR. I guess their stats have dropped considerably...

The average MCAT for Loyola this last year was a 504...

Edit: also for Drexel for 2015 it was a 3.6/31, that means that half the class had lower than those in those categories

 

[ThreeCheers]

I've always been a glass half-empty guy, but on this issue I'm not. I have yet to hear a compelling argument for how this is bad for DOs not pursuing a surgerical sub (so most)

You have to remember that the AVERAGE DO student sits out the USMLE and scores 500-550 on the COMLEX. I can't imagine anyone with those stats matching into ACGME residencies outside of primary care, PMR, psych, and maybe gas. Hence the concern that most DOs will be pushed to a small pool of specialties.

I don't mind that part so much because I think it's unwise to matriculate into a DO school if you can't be satisfied with matching into primary care if necessary. What does concern me is how the shoddy advising given at some DO schools, combined with the many unanswered questions about the merger, makes it difficult for the next few classes to determine which residency programs they are competitive for.

 

[DrWhozits]

You have to remember that the AVERAGE DO student sits out the USMLE and scores 500-550 on the COMLEX. I can't imagine anyone with those stats matching into ACGME residencies outside of primary care, PMR, psych, and maybe gas. Hence the concern that most DOs will be pushed to a small pool of specialties.

I don't mind that part so much because I think it's unwise to matriculate into a DO school if you can't be satisfied with matching into primary care if necessary. What does concern me is how the shoddy advising given at some DO schools, combined with the many unanswered questions about the merger, makes it difficult for the next few classes to determine which residency programs they are competitive for.

Yes, but how many people are scoring 500-550 and matching even into the AOA versions of the competitive specialities? Can't imagine very many.

 

[SurgDoc95]

The average MCAT for Loyola this last year was a 504...

Edit: also for Drexel for 2015 it was a 3.6/31, that means that half the class had lower than those in those categories

Here's another example, KCU for this years incoming class has a GPA average of 3.7ish and an MCAT average of almost a 30 (29.6 or something) while my undergrad, public MD school that ranks in the top 70 med schools has a 3.7 and 30 MCAT.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Unless anyone posts a post germane to the original post, I will ask the mods to close the thread

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Here's another example, KCU for this years incoming class has a GPA average of 3.7ish and an MCAT average of almost a 30 (29.6 or something) while my undergrad, public MD school that ranks in the top 70 med schools has a 3.7 and 30 MCAT.

...so why'd you go to KCU?


Furthermore, according to this http://www.kcumb.edu/admissions/student-profileKCU's median GPA is 3.63 and the median MCAT is a 28...so idk why you're inflating these numbers for any other reason but your own ego. It just makes you look insecure dude.

 

[SurgDoc95]

...so why'd you go to KCU?


Furthermore, according to this http://www.kcumb.edu/admissions/student-profileKCU's median GPA is 3.63 and the median MCAT is a 28...so idk why you're inflating these numbers for any other reason but your own ego. It just makes you look insecure dude.

That's last years class. Also, the only one with an inflated ego is you who insist on attacking and proving everyone wrong.

To answer your question, I chose KCU over my undergrad because I couldn't stand the thought of being in the same town of 10k people for another 4 years.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

That's last years class. Also, the only one with an inflated ego is you who insist on attacking and proving everyone wrong.

I mean it's one thing to stand up for yourself and another to repeatedly state falsehoods. Nobody's saying DOs aren't competent physicians, but the statements you've made have no substance and are easily disproven with a 2 second google search. I can't imagine why you'd bother saying things that simply aren't true, unless you have a profound inferiority complex to compensate for.

 

[SurgDoc95]

I mean it's one thing to stand up for yourself and another to repeatedly state falsehoods. Nobody's saying DOs aren't competent physicians, but the statements you've made have no substance and are easily disproven with a 2 second google search. I can't imagine why you'd bother saying things that simply aren't true, unless you have a profound inferiority complex to compensate for.

You've sure got me pegged! Also, schools don't publish their incoming class averages until the term starts. Ever think perhaps I got that from a current student or school admin? Anyway I'll go wallow in my inferiority complex.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

You've sure got me pegged! Also, schools don't publish their incoming class averages until the term starts. Ever think perhaps I got that from a current student or school admin? Anyway I'll go wallow in my inferiority complex.

Considering that as a 4th year I interviewed applicants and didn't receive our GPA and MCAT averages among accepted students for the 2016-2017 application cycle (nor did anyone else to my knowledge) I find it strange that 1) they'd give that info to students, since students generally have more important **** to worry about like boards, ERAS and shelf exams and it has no bearing on their lives whatsoever and 2) they'd have that info compiled >1 month before term starts when people are still getting accepted off of waitlists and stuff, so their class likely isn't 100% finalised yet.

Feel free to resume wallowing in your inferiority complex.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Considering that as a 4th year I interviewed applicants and didn't receive our GPA and MCAT averages among accepted students for the 2016-2017 application cycle (nor did anyone else to my knowledge) I find it strange that 1) they'd give that info to students, since students generally have more important **** to worry about like boards, ERAS and shelf exams and it has no bearing on their lives whatsoever and 2) they'd have that info compiled >1 month before term starts when people are still getting accepted off of waitlists and stuff, so their class likely isn't 100% finalised yet.

Feel free to resume wallowing in your inferiority complex.

Okay boss call me a liar if you'd likeCould it be you have a superiority complex? Have a good day.

 

[Bynumite17]

Here's another example, KCU for this years incoming class has a GPA average of 3.7ish and an MCAT average of almost a 30 (29.6 or something) while my undergrad, public MD school that ranks in the top 70 med schools has a 3.7 and 30 MCAT.

The numbers they gave early on turned out not to be accurate (were inflated af) for our class. I doubt they're that high for your class either.

Also, MD students also don't have grade replacement.

 

[IslandStyle808]

The numbers they gave early on turned out not to be accurate (were inflated af) for our class. I doubt they're that high for your class either.

Also, MD students also don't have grade replacement.

I doubt, even without grade replacement, that the numbers would decline that much.

 

[SurgDoc95]

The numbers they gave early on turned out not to be accurate (were inflated af) for our class. I doubt they're that high for your class either.

Also, MD students also don't have grade replacement.

That's not my point. I understand that they'll fluctuate, but for lex to say I'm spewing incorrect information when he doesn't have information we were given by those at the school is simply ridiculous. Any way y'all only have what 9 days left?!

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I doubt, even without grade replacement, that the numbers would decline that much.

Idk man. Anecdotally, the people I come across who generally use grade replacement are people who got Cs and Ds in prerequisite courses and those tank your GPA something fierce. But I'm curious why you feel otherwise though.

That's not my point. I understand that they'll fluctuate, but for lex to say I'm spewing incorrect information when he doesn't have information we were given by those at the school is simply ridiculous. Any way y'all only have what 9 days left?!

You're saying things that nobody can verify and that don't correspond to the info that is out there so it's hardly ridiculous to not believe what a rando on the internet is saying when info published by the school itself says otherwise.

 

[Henry101]

What do you guys think RVU does differently where their students are required to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX?
If more DO schools required the USMLE, wouldn't most of these problems/concerns be non-issues?

Just bumping up my original question that no one has answered yet.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Just bumping up my original question that no one has answered yet.

It's hard to tease out what one school might do differently to influence board scores when board scores in and of themselves are largely a product of the individual's preparation and work ethic. With things like match lists it's easier to point the finger at a school for bad advising, poor mentorship or a scarcity of CV building opportunities like research, dual degrees, etc. but with board scores it's tough to say.

 

[Henry101]

when board scores in and of themselves are largely a product of the individual's preparation and work ethic.

This is not true but w//e.
Not even a DO student but I enjoy getting the other side's perspective.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

This is not true but w//e.
Not even a DO student but I enjoy getting the other side's perspective.

Why do you disagree?

 

[Henry101]

Why do you disagree?

Schools do play a tremendous part in how students perform on board exams.
- Length of dedicated prep time
- Adequate academic preparation during years 1-2
- Adequate and appropriate testing during years 1-2
- Amount of required class time during MS-II that takes away from independent studying.
- Supplemental instruction and counseling for struggling students (like Kaplan prep classes/material for students who have failed modules, etc.)
- Comprehensive counseling during MS-II in preparation for dedicated time.
- the list goes on....

Yes, individual effort is important but schools play a big role in shaping the environment for the student to succeed or fail on boards.
Preparation is different for a student who is given 3 weeks to prep for boards versus a student who is given 2 months to prep. Outcomes will also be different.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Schools do play a tremendous part in how students perform on board exams.
- Length of dedicated prep time
- Adequate academic preparation during years 1-2
- Adequate and appropriate testing during years 1-2
- Amount of required class time during MS-II that takes away from independent studying.
- Supplemental instruction and counseling for struggling students (like Kaplan prep classes/material for students who have failed modules, etc.)
- Comprehensive counseling during MS-II in preparation for dedicated time.
- the list goes on....

Yes, individual effort is important but schools play a big role in shaping the environment for the student to succeed or fail on boards.
Preparation is different for a student who is given 3 weeks to prep for boards versus a student who is given 2 months to prep. Outcomes will also be different.

With the exception of dedicated prep time and pre-exam counselling, I don't know if I buy this. The benefits of most of what you mentioned are highly variable and very individualised based on the learning style of one student vs. another, so I don't think you can say that they have a net effect on how students in a class as a whole do on boards that's larger than what the individuals themselves put in.

The vast majority of your learning in professional school is self-directed. Yes, the material can be presented to you in an more effective matter, but in general your typical medical student is going home and reading and re-reading from ≥1 sources and learning that way, even with required class time. Yes, didactics matter but pretty much everyone I've encountered has agreed that most of it comes down to how you prepare for the exam, and that's a highly individualised thing.

The Kaplan courses for students who've failed blocs before is a new one, I've never heard of a school paying for your review course.

 

[Henry101]

The vast majority of your learning in professional school is self-directed. Yes, the material can be presented to you in an more effective matter, but in general your typical medical student is going home and reading and re-reading from ≥1 sources and learning that way, even with required class time. Yes, didactics matter but pretty much everyone I've encountered has agreed that most of it comes down to how you prepare for the exam, and that's a highly individualised thing.

If what you say is true, why don't more DO students take the USMLE? Why do only 2-3 schools have a USMLE requirement? This is my original question. I don't believe that 50% of do students lack the "effort" or "drive" to not take the exam.....