Reapply to MD/DO or accept SGU *considering* their decent match list?

[swaggyp_]

Hi all,

I know I will be crucified for not using the search function but I did look this up and wasn't really convinced by the results so here I go...

I am really interested in Orthopedic Surgery but those hopes have been dashed as I didn't get offers from any MD schools I was waitlisted at in the States. SGU, being my current second option, has decent placement into General Surgery (#2 choice specialty atm): https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2016.

So my question is....is the match list (specifically for general surgery) that bad at SGU? I know SGU gets bashed for "little to no" matching but their 2016 match list for General Surgery, IM, Anesthesiology, EM seems decent TO ME.

Can someone please enlighten/correct me as to what I am failing to realize? It's not as if all these programs are terrible..

Also, is it worth it to forgo SGU this year to reapply to MD/apply to DO (didn't the first time) especially considering ACGME and AOA are merging in 2020 (in effect for 2021 entering-residents I believe)? Can someone weigh in whether DOs would be equally favored as MDs for competitive specialties like Ortho after the merger?

My stats: Canadian, 3.7 sGPA, 515 MCAT, great ECs, publication, great rec letter from Attending Physician

Thank you!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[bcemslayer]

What schools did you apply to this year? Your stats look good for a US MD

 

[swaggyp_]

What schools did you apply to this year? Your stats look good for a US MD

Oh forgot to mention I am Canadian/International.
Applied to 15 schools, waitlisted at one in Michigan and one in Kentucky.

 

[kamakazi5]

With your stats and assuming no red flags you should find a spot at an MD school and definitely at a DO school. What schools did you apply to and what state are you in?

Edit: Did you apply to schools that are international friendly? You'll still likely have a decent shot at DO schools.

 

[swaggyp_]

With your stats and assuming no red flags you should find a spot at an MD school and definitely at a DO school. What schools did you apply to and what state are you in?

Edit: Did you apply to schools that are international friendly? You'll still likely have a decent shot at DO schools.

Yup I applied to only international friendly. And I made the mistake of not applying to DO last year because I wanted to do surgery :/ The merger changes things...

 

[Mansamusa]

Yup I applied to only international friendly. And I made the mistake of not applying to DO last year because I wanted to do surgery :/ The merger changes things...

Is it easy to go SGU--> surgery in Canada? Because I'm pretty sure DOs have more surgical opportunities than SGU grads in the US meaning that applying to DO schools would be your best bet

 

[kamakazi5]

Yup I applied to only international friendly. And I made the mistake of not applying to DO last year because I wanted to do surgery :/ The merger changes things...

The merger won't necessarily make it more easy to match into the more competitive specialties. Also, it's hard but don't go into medical school with eyes on only one specialty as it is very likely to change before you get to the end. Even worse is if you don't score well enough to get into a specific specialty. That could be a tough pill to swallow.

I still think you should be ok for DO programs. Good luck.

 

[swaggyp_]

Is it easy to go SGU--> surgery in Canada? Because I'm pretty sure DOs have more surgical opportunities than SGU grads in the US meaning that applying to DO schools would be your best bet

Not really because FMGs/IMGs can only be accepted to a residency program in round 2 in Canada...basically they can only fill in left over spots.

 

[swaggyp_]

The merger won't necessarily make it more easy to match into the more competitive specialties. Also, it's hard but don't go into medical school with eyes on only one specialty as it is very likely to change before you get to the end. Even worse is if you don't score well enough to get into a specific specialty. That could be a tough pill to swallow.

I still think you should be ok for DO programs. Good luck.

Good point. But I just wanna make sure I can at least get into the speciality I am interested in currently (shadowed many types of docs).

 

[Med Ed]

I am really interested in Orthopedic Surgery

Of course you are.

Also, is it worth it to forgo SGU this year to reapply to MD/apply to DO (didn't the first time) especially considering ACGME and AOA are merging in 2020 (in effect for 2021 entering-residents I believe)? Can someone weigh in whether DOs would be equally favored as MDs for competitive specialties like Ortho after the merger?

In the 2016 match there were 717 orthopedic surgery positions offered. Of these 4 were filled by DO's (0.56%), 6 were filled with US IMG's (0.84%), and 8 were filled with non-US IMG's (1.12%).

There are currently 44 AOA-approved orthopedic surgery programs, filled with 100% DO's. Most of the folks I have talked to feel that many of the current osteopathic programs, especially those in competitive fields, will give a strong preference to osteopathic applicants even after the merger.

tl;dr DO is a better option.

 

[ed*26]

If you look at the breakdown of their current graduates only 7% are actually doing surgery. Elsewhere you'll find that they have about 5800 (!) MD students currently enrolled. With that many students, you're bound to get a few good matches here and there. It doesn't mean the program is conducive to you getting into surgery.

On the page you linked they report that 30% of their graduates do not get their residencies through the Match. That's 30% of graduates failing to match (and that number doesn't count those who are left totally without a residency so the number is likely much higher). To compare, only 5-8% of US grads fail to match.

None of this counts the number of students that don't make it to graduation. Strangely, SGU doesn't report that data. But let's return to that 5800 total MD enrollment number. Assuming an even distribution across classss that's ~1450 people a class. The front page of the SGU website boasts 860 US residency matches this year. That's only 59% of their students getting a match. I.e., 59% of students can actually be practicing physicians. If the rumors are true and many people do fail out your chances are even worse.

Tl;dr if you want to practice medicine in the US, get your medical degree in the US (same with Canada) and not some sketchy school that couldn't set up in the country you actually want to

 

[ed*26]

Thanks @gonnif

So for simplicity let's assume that the 20% (conservative estimate) that fail out do so between M2 and M3 so SGU can keep that 97% Step 2 passing rate. That would be ~1600 entering students (1600+1600+1300+1300=5800).

So out of 1600 entering students, 860, or 54%, get to be practicing US doctors.

That's given that 30% of those that get residencies fail to match. So only 600 actually do match, or 37.5% of entering students. Yikes.

 

[Goro]

Any American medical school that had numbers like this would be shut down by thier accreditors, and sued.

SGU has no reason to tell the truth on "their decent match list"

Thanks @gonnif

So for simplicity let's assume that the 20% (conservative estimate) that fail out do so between M2 and M3 so SGU can keep that 97% Step 2 passing rate. That would be ~1600 entering students (1600+1600+1300+1300=5800).

So out of 1600 entering students, 860, or 54%, get to be practicing US doctors.

That's given that 30% of those that get residencies fail to match. So only 600 actually do match, or 37.5% of entering students. Yikes.

 

[ChrisMack390]

The list you provided says that 2 people of of 897 matched to ortho. That does not include the 50% or greater attrition rate.

2 out of 1794 = 0.1% of SGU students entering into your preferred specialty. Are those really odds you want to take?

 

[Dustbowl12]

If you can get accepted to a US med school MD or DO you should dance until you drop. Avoid SGU unless you can't get in multiple times

 

[GrapesofRath]

You are going to be hard pressed to find anybody to recommend you go to the Carib. Especially with these stats. You probably know this also.
One issue with regards to your question is we dont know how many AOA ortho programs will survive the merger.
Making a decision like this primarily because of a desire for top specialties is not something you'll find many people recommend either.
If MD is your end goal one consideration if feasible is to move to the US and become a resident.
If that's not feasible DO is a viable option for you.
There are SMP programs in the US with a certain level of linkage(ie RFU) that take a good chunk of their SMP grads where your odds are largely defined by if you can beat out a certain % of people in the SMP. I dont know how being an international would affect your odds and I havent seen many instances of internationals going the SMP route so it's not something Id be comfortable recommending but that's one potential option to look more into if MD is your end goal.

 

[bcemslayer]

I'm Canadian, so feel free to PM me about Canadian admissions. Because you shouldn't have to go Caribbean with your stats!

 

[Lawpy]

If you can get accepted to a US med school MD or DO you should dance until you drop. Avoid SGU unless you can't get in multiple times

Caribbean should be avoided completely. If someone can't get accepted after multiple cycles, they should probably pursue an alternative career.

 

[Mansamusa]

If you can get accepted to a US med school MD or DO you should dance until you drop. Avoid SGU unless you can't get in multiple times

What @Lawper said. I would go a step further and say that anyone who cannot get into a DO after multiple attempts (20% of 2014 DO matriculants had a MCAT below the 50th percentile, grade replacement, and the many new schools opening already give less-qualified applicants plenty of opportunities) should very seriously consider whether or not this is the right career path for them. It's a huge financial risk to take if you are not even capable of getting into a new DO program

 

[Goro]

Only 1.4% of all of my grads (> 1000 since I've been teaching) have ever gone into Ortho via AOA residencies. None have made it via ACGME. Do NOT think for second that it's easy for DOs to get into this specialty.

Get into med school, and then worry about residency.

 

[thestrugglingtraveler77]

Why don't u try Canadian medical schools?

 

[Ho0v-man]

Apply again MD/DO. Doesn't msucom have some kind of scholarship for Canadians that basically makes it like instate tuition? That's probably the best DO school anyway, just sayin'.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Why don't u try Canadian medical schools?

Doesn't have a competitive GPA, unless his last couple years were great.

If you're unsuccessful with US DO schools this year you'd want to consider Ireland as your next option. Much better odds of actually making it through med school (compared to the Caribbean) and you might be able to match to something other than Family or Psychiatry in Canada. If you go international there's no reason to expect that you'll become a surgeon. Could happen if you're very lucky, but unlikely. Ireland is a popular spot for Canadian applicants, good schools and good beer.

 

[swaggyp_]

Bloomberg has cited from DeVry Medical International (Ross/AUC corporate parent) see link below) that Ross, for example, has about 52% of their students who complete the program and earn a degree. Of these about 85% receive a residency slot. SGU has previously reported about 30% of it graduates go to non-match slots via SOAP, off-cycle, or other mechanisms which essentially means what is ever left open at the end of the match. So if you start Ross, for example, you have an under 45% chance of earning a degree and getting any residency slot. Big risk for several hundred thousands of dollars in loans and less than a 45% chance of practicing medicine.

Not rumors; numbers in Bloomberg article are cited from DeVry itself

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...an-medical-schools-use-federal-funds-loophole
Attrition, Completion
Attrition at U.S. schools averaged 3 percent for the class that began in 2008, while 80 percent graduated in four years, according to the AAMC. Attrition was 20 percent to 27 percent at for-profit DeVry’s two schools, while 52 percent of Ross students and 66 percent at AUC completed their program on time in 2012, according to DeVry.

Additionally, the NRMP "Charting Outcomes in the Match International Medical Graduates" you can see in Chart 15 Country of Medical School by IMG Applicant Type and Match Status of the 534 SGU graduates/seniors who were US Citizens who applied in 2013 for residency only 258 matched. That is only 48%. All the rest that got slots were from non-Match placement, via SOAP, off cycle, etc.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

Thanks @gonnif

So for simplicity let's assume that the 20% (conservative estimate) that fail out do so between M2 and M3 so SGU can keep that 97% Step 2 passing rate. That would be ~1600 entering students (1600+1600+1300+1300=5800).

So out of 1600 entering students, 860, or 54%, get to be practicing US doctors.

That's given that 30% of those that get residencies fail to match. So only 600 actually do match, or 37.5% of entering students. Yikes.

Is the low attrition rate more a reflection of the quality of education at the school or it is a reflection of students' ability to perform? Isn't it unfair to blame a school if (many) students' decide to goof off? For example, the average GPA of matriculants at SGU is 3.4, with an MCAT of 26. Suppose these same students entered an US MD program, don't you think the attrition rate at that school would be much higher?

The same argument can be made for residency matching for Carib students. The match rate for IMGs is around 50%. So is this a reflection of a legitimate/systemic bias against Carib students by residency programs in the US or is it more a reflection of the same students who had an average of 3.4/26? This is not me trying to be pompous.

That's only 59% of their students getting a match. I.e., 59% of students can actually be practicing physicians. If the rumors are true and many people do fail out your chances are even worse.

Again, it is because of the school or the students?

 

[Mansamusa]

Is the low attrition rate more a reflection of the quality of education at the school or it is a reflection of students' ability to perform? Isn't it unfair to blame a school if (many) students' decide to goof off? For example, the average GPA of matriculants at SGU is 3.4, with an MCAT of 26. Suppose these same students entered an US MD program, wouldn't you think the retention rate at that school be much higher?

The same argument can be made for residency matching for Carib students. The match rate for IMGs is around 50%. So is this a reflection of a legitimate/systemic bias against Carib students by residency programs in the US or is it more a reflection of the same students who had an average of 3.4/26? This is not me trying to be pompous.



Again, it is because of the school or the students?

There are DO schools with a 3.4/26 profile with retention and match rates much higher than SGU's. There are more goof-off students, problems with the school itself, issues with clinical rotations at Caribs schools vs US schools, and PD anti-Carib sentiment (read the million dollar mistake blog- even being a grest student and getting a 260 step severely limits your options). They all factor in against Caribs grads. And remember, goof-off students at US schools will have more resources available to help them remediate and the US school will do everything they can to make sure that student finishes as successfully as they can. Whereas SGU would drop that student as population control for 3rd yr rotations

 

[ChrisMack390]

If you fail an exam at a school in the US, you have to speak with an adviser and go through a remediation process.

If you fail an exam in the Caribbean, they keep your money and send you home.

Enough said.

 

[swaggyp_]

There are DO schools with a 3.4/26 profile with attrition and match rates much higher than SGU's. There are more goof-off students, problems with the school itself, issues with clinical rotations at Caribs schools vs US schools, and PD anti-Carib sentiment (read the million dollar mistake blog- even being a grest student and getting a 260 step severely limits your options). They all factor in against Caribs grads. And remember, goof-off students at US schools will have more resources available to help them remediate and the US school will do everything they can to make sure that student finishes as successfully as they can. Whereas SGU would drop that student as population control for 3rd yr rotations

Is PD anti-Carib sentiment a fact or more of an assumption here on SDN?

If you fail an exam at a school in the US, you have to speak with an adviser and go through a remediation process.

If you fail an exam in the Caribbean, they keep your money and send you home.

Enough said.

Actually, the SGU graduate (doing pathology residency at a top program) who interviewed me specifically told me she failed a course but was still able to graduate.

 

[deleted407021]

There are DO schools with a 3.4/26 profile with attrition and match rates much higher than SGU's. There are more goof-off students, problems with the school itself, issues with clinical rotations at Caribs schools vs US schools, and PD anti-Carib sentiment (read the million dollar mistake blog- even being a grest student and getting a 260 step severely limits your options). They all factor in against Caribs grads. And remember, goof-off students at US schools will have more resources available to help them remediate and the US school will do everything they can to make sure that student finishes as successfully as they can. Whereas SGU would drop that student as population control for 3rd yr rotations

I think I know what you meant here, but it was just worded in such a way that I think some clarification might be needed. Overall attrition for all DO programs has ranged between 2.45 and 3.18% for the past several years, per AACOM data. Over an order of magnitude lower than SGU et al.

 

[gyngyn]

Is PD anti-Carib sentiment a fact or more of an assumption here on SDN?

.

Fact: PD's use software that filters out Caribbean grads.
Program Director's indicate that being a US grad is more important than most of the other criteria evaluated. See page 3.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

 

[swaggyp_]

Fact: PD's use software that filters out Caribbean grads.
Program Director's indicate that being a US grad is more important than most of the other criteria evaluated. See page 3.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

Can you weigh in as to whether this would change when the AOA/ACGME merges in 2020? Would DO and MD students be equally favored? I realize it would still be speculation at this point.

 

[Mansamusa]

Is PD anti-Carib sentiment a fact or more of an assumption here on SDN?



Actually, the SGU graduate (doing pathology residency at a top program) who interviewed me specifically told me she failed a course but was still able to graduate.

You can look at the NRMP Program director survey.

Look at the list of residents at most mid-tier residency programs in almost every specialty and you will see a dearth of Carib grads. Then when you look at Charting the Outcomes, the step score of matched independent applications is pretty close to the step score of matched US seniors. If the matched average is close, what explains the great disparity in the quality of residency programs in which the students match?

And of course quality of school and the quality of student accepted to those schools is taken into consideration to some degree. Top-tier MD> low-tier MD>>Established DO>>New DO>Carib. So you are starting from the bottom of the food chain and need to do more to prove yourself

 

[Mansamusa]

Can you weigh in as to whether this would change when the AOA/ACGME merges in 2020? Would DO and MD students be equally favored? I realize it would still be speculation at this point.

It isn't DO vs MD. It is DO vs US MD vs Carib MD. Carib MD=/= US MD in the eyes of PDs

 

[gyngyn]

Can you weigh in as to whether this would change when the AOA/ACGME merges in 2020? Would DO and MD students be equally favored? I realize it would still be speculation at this point.

My prediction is that MD programs that did not previously consider DO's will not change and that previous DO programs will continue to favor DO's. Nobody is going to suddenly prefer Carib MD's.

 

[Mansamusa]

I think I know what you meant here, but it was just worded in such a way that I think some clarification might be needed. Overall attrition for all DO programs has ranged between 2.45 and 3.18% for the past several years, per AACOM data. Over an order of magnitude lower than SGU et al.

Yeah, bad writing. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[swaggyp_]

It isn't DO vs MD. It is DO vs US MD vs Carib MD. Carib MD=/= US MD in the eyes of PDs

My prediction is that MD programs that did not previously consider DO's will not change and that previous DO programs will continue to favor DO's. Nobody is going to suddenly prefer Carib MD's.

Right, I was asking as a potential resident applicant from a DO school.

 

[gyngyn]

Right, I was asking as a potential resident applicant from a DO school.

DO's will continue to be welcome at the places that have traditionally ranked them.
It will take time before inroads are made at the places that have not.

 

[Favoritefarm]

Those spots that SGU shows in their match list are categorical AND prelim spots. They don't break it down but I am sure almost all of them are prelim spots and not categorical. When you look at their match lists with that in mind, it is not impressive. Prelim spots don't mean anything and usually the worst med students from the worst med schools can still land a prelim general surgery spot pretty easily, even at the really good programs. There's a reason for that!

Sent from my SM-G900V using SDN mobile

 

[GrapesofRath]

The politics of the merger, in the short term, gives more power to most AOA programs as many had unfilled funded slots for GME and they are not going to give them up easily. How this will play out in 5 or 10 years is a huge wildcard

It is interesting how the perspectives vary by who you ask. It was announced last year AOA programs will not be allowed to accept residents without an application to ACGME accreditation already in place. ACGME also has had higher standards in many aspects than AOA such as resource requirements as one of many examples(ie ACGME has minimum faculty requirements unlike AOA even at the smallest programs as one ex). It's obviously not going to be feasible for all AOA programs to last the merger. Some think that 10% of AOA programs wont end up surviving the merger. Others have it at closer to 30% I've talked to who are follow this very closely. In particular many think the AOA programs in the most selective specialties(ie derm) are what will take the most beating. Like you said, many factors are in play that make it very difficult to predict which end of the spectrum the decline in AOA programs falls under. But this is likely a more relevant issue than whether previous DO programs will or wont continue to favor DO's.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

Is it easy to go SGU--> surgery in Canada? Because I'm pretty sure DOs have more surgical opportunities than SGU grads in the US meaning that applying to DO schools would be your best bet

NO. Like, literally impossible.

They should not ever, ever, ever consider SGU if they want to be a surgeon and are Canadian....

 

[Law2Doc]

1. Attrition is high offshore -- it is part of their business model -- they don't have contracts for enough clinical rotations for everyone. It has nothing to do with the quality of the students or teaching -- they already know they are going to fail out X% and keep their money from day one. This has been part of the system at many of these schools for years -- accept everyone, fail out 40%, trap another 20% in internal hurdles before they can do the steps and rotations and then boast a better match rate using only the 40% left.
2. There aren't the same kind of "truth in advertising" laws or enforcement in the Caribbean requiring these schools to be 100% factual in any of the statistics they publish. In the US you couldn't claim an X% match rate unless you can back it up, we have lots of these consumer protection laws in place to hold schools feet in the fire. On an island they can just make crap up and throw it onto the website without any recourse. So unless the numbers are borne out by NRMP data, take it with a grain of salt. Nothing off an offshore website should be taken as true because it's unaudited and unenforced. So I reject your initial premise of the match rate, even using "after attrition" numbers.
3. Beware the dead end prelims. When an offshore school has "decent placement into general surgery", make sure they aren't including a large handful of dead end prelim surgery spots that scut out residents for a year and dump them out into the following match. These aren't good stepping stones and should really be ignored from your match calculations.

 

[Goro]

The answer is yes.

And pay attention:

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.


Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with grade replacement for these candidates.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really.

Is the low attrition rate more a reflection of the quality of education at the school or it is a reflection of students' ability to perform? Isn't it unfair to blame a school if (many) students' decide to goof off? For example, the average GPA of matriculants at SGU is 3.4, with an MCAT of 26. Suppose these same students entered an US MD program, don't you think the attrition rate at that school would be much higher?

The same argument can be made for residency matching for Carib students. The match rate for IMGs is around 50%. So is this a reflection of a legitimate/systemic bias against Carib students by residency programs in the US or is it more a reflection of the same students who had an average of 3.4/26? This is not me trying to be pompous.
Again, it is because of the school or the students?

 

[ATPsynthase123]

God... We've been over this multiple times on this website! GO DO. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST DO IT (see what i did there?).

The anti-DO stigma is unreal among pre-meds. The only real difference between MD and DO programs in this day and age is lack of research (which is currently in the process of changing) and the focus on primary care (which most physicians go into anyways). You are not screwing yourself by going DO, you are setting yourself up for success and a quality medical education. By attending SGU however, you are in-fact screwing yourself harder than a chronic masturbator.

If you go DO, in 4-5 years you will be starting your residency and on the way to becoming a successful physician.

If you go to SGU, statistically you will drop out within the first two years and be stuck with $200,000+ of debt and nothing to show for it.

So I ask you, which is better?

• Practicing DO/MD physician

or

• homeless/bankrupt

Think hard!

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Hi all,

I know I will be crucified for not using the search function but I did look this up and wasn't really convinced by the results so here I go...

I am really interested in Orthopedic Surgery but those hopes have been dashed as I didn't get offers from any MD schools I was waitlisted at in the States. SGU, being my current second option, has decent placement into General Surgery (#2 choice specialty atm): https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2016.

So my question is....is the match list (specifically for general surgery) that bad at SGU? I know SGU gets bashed for "little to no" matching but their 2016 match list for General Surgery, IM, Anesthesiology, EM seems decent TO ME.

Can someone please enlighten/correct me as to what I am failing to realize? It's not as if all these programs are terrible..

Also, is it worth it to forgo SGU this year to reapply to MD/apply to DO (didn't the first time) especially considering ACGME and AOA are merging in 2020 (in effect for 2021 entering-residents I believe)? Can someone weigh in whether DOs would be equally favored as MDs for competitive specialties like Ortho after the merger?

My stats: Canadian, 3.7 sGPA, 515 MCAT, great ECs, publication, great rec letter from Attending Physician

Thank you!

you will not become an orthopedic surgeon going to sgu. you will likely not become a general sugeon going to sgu.

you can do either though, if your application is reasonably fixable. your choice.

edit: btw their gen surg match is garbage.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

Why don't u try Canadian medical schools?

Their GPA is much, much too low for most unfortunately. Canadian medical schools are very difficult to get into, so many use med-tier US MD as their 'back-up' even

 

[Favoritefarm]

Hi all,

I know I will be crucified for not using the search function but I did look this up and wasn't really convinced by the results so here I go...

I am really interested in Orthopedic Surgery but those hopes have been dashed as I didn't get offers from any MD schools I was waitlisted at in the States. SGU, being my current second option, has decent placement into General Surgery (#2 choice specialty atm): https://postgrad.sgu.edu/ResidencyAppointmentDirectory.aspx?year=2016.

So my question is....is the match list (specifically for general surgery) that bad at SGU? I know SGU gets bashed for "little to no" matching but their 2016 match list for General Surgery, IM, Anesthesiology, EM seems decent TO ME.

Can someone please enlighten/correct me as to what I am failing to realize? It's not as if all these programs are terrible..

Also, is it worth it to forgo SGU this year to reapply to MD/apply to DO (didn't the first time) especially considering ACGME and AOA are merging in 2020 (in effect for 2021 entering-residents I believe)? Can someone weigh in whether DOs would be equally favored as MDs for competitive specialties like Ortho after the merger?

My stats: Canadian, 3.7 sGPA, 515 MCAT, great ECs, publication, great rec letter from Attending Physician

Thank you!

You realize that the match list cairbbean schools publish includes all their prelim spots? And you realize that a top tier surgery program like UCSF sometimes has prelim spots that dont get filled? They just need warm bodies for a year and then you are essentially kicked out, unless you are a superstar intern and you somehow manage to upstage your MD colleagues. The match lists do NOT represent anything because you dont know who got a categorical spot, or a guaranteed residency. Out of the 30 gen surg spots SGU publishes, probably only one of them is a categorical spot, in a very bad program most likely.

Sent from my SM-G900V using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

Just to reiterate, any US schools, MD or DO, with match/placement rates like these would be closed and sued by the accreditors (LCME and COCA.

SGU does not publish a match list. it reports total placements from Match, SOAP (supplemental post match open slots), off cycle contracts, etc. They have reported about 30% non match placements.

So lets look at the numbers. Ross and AUC report about 25% attrition rate; SGU likely has similar numbers. Placement rates for the big 3 are about 85%. Lets take away the 30% non match residency. So you have 75% chance of graduating with a 55% chance of actually matching. That is about an over all success rate of 41%.

both MD and DO have overall attrition rates of 3% and a match rate of about 94%. So overall success rate is 91%

no applicant should consider off shore schools without completing two full cycles (both MD & DO) with a break in between

 

[ConfusedChemist]

You realize that the match list cairbbean schools publish includes all their prelim spots? And you realize that a top tier surgery program like UCSF sometimes has prelim spots that dont get filled? They just need warm bodies for a year and then you are essentially kicked out, unless you are a superstar intern and you somehow manage to upstage your MD colleagues. The match lists do NOT represent anything because you dont know who got a categorical spot, or a guaranteed residency. Out of the 30 gen surg spots SGU publishes, probably only one of them is a categorical spot, in a very bad program most likely.

Sent from my SM-G900V using SDN mobile

Exactly. And to make matters much, much worse, they are Canadian. So the chances are even lower, trying to find a place that will take a non-US IMG grad whom they need to pay $$ for a Visa for.

And then they need to hope and pray that Health Canada lets them have a J1 for their specialty of choice...or even FM