Recruiting Resources

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This thread kind of went a direction different than I predicted, which means I learned things I didn't think I'd learn.

Administration is hounding us "explore innovative recruiting options." We shoot back that we face only three problems: salary, salary, and salary.

I send some of these comments up the chain of command and see if it changes anything. I know it won't.

I am aware that at least three Dignity anesthesia departments are in crisis/panic mode. We aren't panicking, but I hear rumbling that "corporate" (Dignity/CHI) is getting tired of hearing all the independent private practices (and surgeons) complain. It's not a stretch to fear that some C-suite suit might bring to an AMC salespitch and believe the easy answers.
 
CCCMDMBA said:
This thread kind of went a direction different than I predicted, which means I learned things I didn't think I'd learn.

Administration is hounding us "explore innovative recruiting options." We shoot back that we face only three problems: salary, salary, and salary.

I send some of these comments up the chain of command and see if it changes anything. I know it won't.

I am aware that at least three Dignity anesthesia departments are in crisis/panic mode. We aren't panicking, but I hear rumbling that "corporate" (Dignity/CHI) is getting tired of hearing all the independent private practices (and surgeons) complain. It's not a stretch to fear that some C-suite suit might bring to an AMC salespitch and believe the easy answers.
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Dude, you’re not making sense. First you say above average compensation at >500k/year in a reasonable location, and now you say the problem is salary. 😕
 
SaltyDog said:
Dude, you’re not making sense. First you say above average compensation at >500k/year in a reasonable location, and now you say the problem is salary. 😕
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Lies, lies, and more lies!!!!

In other words they are paying less than $30 a unit (as y’all predicted) and working 60+ hours a week, taking 4 weeks vacation in order to make that $500k. Been there, done that. Not fun. And why I quit my second job.

The truth shall set you free! Tell the whole truth OP.
 
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I think the original question as to why the OP has had difficulty recruiting has been answered. Inconsistent storylines and blaming recruiting woes on some faceless suit are big red flags that a potential employer is being less than honest. Maybe the OP is only getting “desperate CVs” because the word is out and only desperate anesthesiologists are willing to work there. It doesn’t take much to fill spots if you are in a remotely desirable area...just look at all the bad jobs being filled up and down the east coast.
 
CCCMDMBA said:
This thread kind of went a direction different than I predicted, which means I learned things I didn't think I'd learn.

Administration is hounding us "explore innovative recruiting options." We shoot back that we face only three problems: salary, salary, and salary.

I send some of these comments up the chain of command and see if it changes anything. I know it won't.

I am aware that at least three Dignity anesthesia departments are in crisis/panic mode. We aren't panicking, but I hear rumbling that "corporate" (Dignity/CHI) is getting tired of hearing all the independent private practices (and surgeons) complain. It's not a stretch to fear that some C-suite suit might bring to an AMC salespitch and believe the easy answers.
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Even then, the AMC will have to get people to come there. When a corporation is being cheap they always think an AMC is the answer until that AMC doesn't deliver on it's promises.
 
Dang...
UCSF Title Code 9121
Base of 266k with no call and time and a half over time with a full pension to boot.

crnapay.jpeg



SaltyDog said:
You can look up the salary for any UC employee online.
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What if you are an individual who works or moves every few years, exploring, living in different parts of the country, and working for the "man" getting shafted in non partnership positions because of living in excess doc's areas? Or let's say family situations changes or get tired of crappy weather or desire to live in different areas at certain stages of life.. all thr while being a competent physician. Will that make a guy who can work it less desirable? This isn't my situation but my plan is to be at first job for a couple of years until our family situation changes or permanently get tired of winter, and find the more perfect job. I would hate to be labeled as undesirable because "life"
 
2Fast2Des said:
What if you are an individual who works or moves every few years, exploring, living in different parts of the country, and working for the "man" getting shafted in non partnership positions because of living in excess doc's areas? Or let's say family situations changes or get tired of crappy weather or desire to live in different areas at certain stages of life.. all thr while being a competent physician. Will that make a guy who can work it less desirable? This isn't my situation but my plan is to be at first job for a couple of years until our family situation changes or permanently get tired of winter, and find the more perfect job. I would hate to be labeled as undesirable because "life"
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I would pass on this person.
Recruiting is a huge burden. It cost money and takes a lot of time.
Then once the new person arrives, there is more work to be done.
Why would I want to do all of this and then do it all again in a couple years when I can take someone that wants to remain in one place?
 
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Shimmy8 said:
So I supervise 99% of the time, but I’m only a year out of residency. For you folks who do your own cases, how long out of residency/doing my own cases would make you iffy on hiring me?
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Every year out of residency supervising is a negative to me. They add up. The more there are the worse it is. That’s the best I can describe it.
Here’s how I look at it and I’m sure there will be many rebuttals. Once you finish residency you are supposed to be a safe anesthesiologist. Now you need a few years under your belt fine tuning your skills. Some people take more than others and the type of practice also matters in this regard. My perfect candidate is probably 3-5yrs out of residency that has been doing mostly (>75%) of their own cases. No trouble passing boards. Many good comments from “cold calls” to partners, surgeons, administrators and nurses. I call the PACU nurses. I rarely get very much useful info from surgeons.
 
Noyac said:
Then once the new person arrives, there is more work to be done.
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I’m curious what you mean by this. Do you really feel you need to do that much to get a new grad up to speed?? Speaking for myself, my residency classmates, and the other new hires from various programs we’ve had since I’ve been out: I haven’t really noticed any issues with people hitting the ground running. Of course there are questions from the new guys but they’re always “how do you guys typically do these here” or “what can I expect from this surgeon.” Perhaps you’re just not getting good candidates??

To be honest, the guys that tend to be problem children are the ones with experience. We’ve historically given a reduced partner track to guys with >5yrs experience, but we’re actually considering doing away with that to discourage applications. We’ll take a new grad from one of our familiar programs all day long over the guy that’s supposedly got PP experience.
 
Noyac said:
I would pass on this person.
Recruiting is a huge burden. It cost money and takes a lot of time.
Then once the new person arrives, there is more work to be done.
Why would I want to do all of this and then do it all again in a couple years when I can take someone that wants to remain in one place?
Click to expand...

Where does cost come into factor? When I interviewed private practice jobs, no reimbursement for travel or anything or sign on bonus was offered. Wouldn't a group save money by having a new person come on board since for the couple of years before made partner they have buy in cost?
 
2Fast2Des said:
Where does cost come into factor? When I interviewed private practice jobs, no reimbursement for travel or anything or sign on bonus was offered. Wouldn't a group save money by having a new person come on board since for the couple of years before made partner they have buy in cost?
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Maybe you weren’t interviewing at the right groups. Some places I interviewed at least had a fancy dinner with at least 6-10 partners the night before the interview and one big PNW group offered a $1500 travel stipend for the interview which I spent every penny of.
 
2Fast2Des said:
Where does cost come into factor? When I interviewed private practice jobs, no reimbursement for travel or anything or sign on bonus was offered. Wouldn't a group save money by having a new person come on board since for the couple of years before made partner they have buy in cost?
Click to expand...

You don’t want the turnover though. Turnover is disruptive to everyone. A small to midsize group is like a family.

You may have better luck with a large group. But honestly, if you’re looking for a more “Bohemian” lifestyle then just working locums is probably a better option. Perhaps setting up a rotation of regular/recurring gigs with a few practices in different areas?
 
SaltyDog said:
I’m curious what you mean by this. Do you really feel you need to do that much to get a new grad up to speed?? Speaking for myself, my residency classmates, and the other new hires from various programs we’ve had since I’ve been out: I haven’t really noticed any issues with people hitting the ground running. Of course there are questions from the new guys but they’re always “how do you guys typically do these here” or “what can I expect from this surgeon.” Perhaps you’re just not getting good candidates??

To be honest, the guys that tend to be problem children are the ones with experience. We’ve historically given a reduced partner track to guys with >5yrs experience, but we’re actually considering doing away with that to discourage applications. We’ll take a new grad from one of our familiar programs all day long over the guy that’s supposedly got PP experience.
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I get your point about people with >5 yrs exp. they know the ropes and can manipulate to their advantage if they want to.
The work when you bring someone on isn’t about doing anesthesia. It’s all the other stuff. Our last 4 or 5 hires have been seemless. But we have learned many lessons leading up to this. Everyone comes with some sort of deficiencies to some degree. Usually they are small and easy to overcome. Maybe it’s waking up kids fast in a busy ENT room. When the schedule is based on our “usual” timing and a new person takes 5 min more to wake each one up then that adds up. So they get more ENT until they are up to speed. That’s just an example. There are all kinds of things to learn in a new job. It takes time is what I’m getting at. Not that a new hire has any issues.
 
2Fast2Des said:
Where does cost come into factor? When I interviewed private practice jobs, no reimbursement for travel or anything or sign on bonus was offered. Wouldn't a group save money by having a new person come on board since for the couple of years before made partner they have buy in cost?
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We are all equal in my group. New hires. New grads, old farts like me. All the same contract.
But time and money are spent in the interview process. The hardest part is time. You don’t get that back. I’d much rather be spending my time away from work my way rather than having to interview.
 
Noyac said:
I would pass on this person.
Recruiting is a huge burden. It cost money and takes a lot of time.
Then once the new person arrives, there is more work to be done.
Why would I want to do all of this and then do it all again in a couple years when I can take someone that wants to remain in one place?
Click to expand...
Because you are wrong in assuming that this person does not want to remain in one place. That's what most of us want: find a nice job, settle down, be happy.

If one is a wanderer, it's MUCH easier and more lucrative to just do locums.
 
FFP said:
Because you are wrong in assuming that this person does not want to remain in one place. That's what most of us want: find a nice job, settle down, be happy.

If one is a wanderer, it's MUCH easier and more lucrative to just do locums.
Click to expand...

My goal would be to find the nice job where one can look forward to going in every day, a job with some sense of reward and good working environment where you are treated respectfully with fair reimbursement. I don't know if it's right to penalize those whom are on the journey to get that gig, since it seems they are getting farther and fewer between. If a situation with a group (s) go south due to unhappy work environment or inbalance of work to pay, I would assume it may take a couple of jobs/years until the right one pops up? Although I agree, someone who has a locums like CV looking for a gig in a low turn over group red flags should probably be raised. But I'm not going to punish myself in a group staying longer than necessary that isn't ideal because of perception on CV.
 
FFP said:
Because you are wrong in assuming that this person does not want to remain in one place. That's what most of us want: find a nice job, settle down, be happy.

If one is a wanderer, it's MUCH easier and more lucrative to just do locums.
Click to expand...
Well all you have to do is prove it to me.
 
chocomorsel said:
Anyone needing a locums for June? My gig is up and fellowship doesn't start till July. I have a few weeks in June. CO, TX, OK, NV, IN.
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Not me right now. We are all full. But check with San Juan Regional in Farmington NM.

Oops, you didn’t mention NM. My bad
 
2Fast2Des said:
My goal would be to find the nice job where one can look forward to going in every day, a job with some sense of reward and good working environment where you are treated respectfully with fair reimbursement. I don't know if it's right to penalize those whom are on the journey to get that gig, since it seems they are getting farther and fewer between. If a situation with a group (s) go south due to unhappy work environment or inbalance of work to pay, I would assume it may take a couple of jobs/years until the right one pops up? Although I agree, someone who has a locums like CV looking for a gig in a low turn over group red flags should probably be raised. But I'm not going to punish myself in a group staying longer than necessary that isn't ideal because of perception on CV.
Click to expand...

This is so true
 
CCCMDMBA said:
Administration is hounding us "explore innovative recruiting options." We shoot back that we face only three problems: salary, salary, and salary.

I am aware that at least three Dignity anesthesia departments are in crisis/panic mode. We aren't panicking, but I hear rumbling that "corporate" (Dignity/CHI) is getting tired of hearing all the independent private practices (and surgeons) complain. It's not a stretch to fear that some C-suite suit might bring to an AMC salespitch and believe the easy answers.
Click to expand...

I'm 90% sure I know where this guy is from. If I'm correct, they've been recruiting nonstop for at least four years. They have used Comphealth, Team Health, and Medical Doctors Associates to try to recruit. Today their ad says they need two anesthesiologists and promises a $10,000 signing bonus, but I've seen it at $20,000. They are a bunch of dinosaurs (one has been there for 45+ years) trying to get newbies to do all the heavy lifting.

Their group is being sued for discrimination their hiring practices. That by itself is alarming.

And their patients are over 50% Medicaid (MediCal).

I am also not convinced that the OP is being sincere. He crows about his MBA in his username, but then tries to act like he's one of us and not a C-suite douchebag. If the guy is who I think he is, he's a tool par excellence. He is leading a charge to sell his group, not the kind of "man of the people" (with a brand new account, no less) who is trying to keep his group fiercely independent. (No group wants to buy them because their payor mix is so economically disadvantaged.)

I could be wrong, though. If he's really plugged in to the Dignity anesthesia groups, he's either exactly who I think he is, or he's from Santa Cruz or Redding. Each of those Dignity hospital groups has lost six or seven anesthesiologists in the last year, and I wouldn't fault them for sincerely coming to Student Doctor Network looking for help recruiting.

OP, if you are from Santa Cruz or Redding, I apologize.
 
Big Swinging Doc said:
I'm 90% sure I know where this guy is from. If I'm correct, they've been recruiting nonstop for at least four years. They have used Comphealth, Team Health, and Medical Doctors Associates to try to recruit. Today their ad says they need two anesthesiologists and promises a $10,000 signing bonus, but I've seen it at $20,000. They are a bunch of dinosaurs (one has been there for 45+ years) trying to get newbies to do all the heavy lifting.

Their group is being sued for discrimination their hiring practices. That by itself is alarming.

And their patients are over 50% Medicaid (MediCal).

I am also not convinced that the OP is being sincere. He crows about his MBA in his username, but then tries to act like he's one of us and not a C-suite douchebag. If the guy is who I think he is, he's a tool par excellence. He is leading a charge to sell his group, not the kind of "man of the people" (with a brand new account, no less) who is trying to keep his group fiercely independent. (No group wants to buy them because their payor mix is so economically disadvantaged.)

I could be wrong, though. If he's really plugged in to the Dignity anesthesia groups, he's either exactly who I think he is, or he's from Santa Cruz or Redding. Each of those Dignity hospital groups has lost six or seven anesthesiologists in the last year, and I wouldn't fault them for sincerely coming to Student Doctor Network looking for help recruiting.

OP, if you are from Santa Cruz or Redding, I apologize.
Click to expand...

Truth hurts sometimes I guess. Nothing the OP is saying adds up, this would certainly shed some light on the situation.
 
Southpaw said:
I haven’t found American medicine to be any different than any other facet of life. I had a different career before medicine. To judge is human nature. It takes an awful swell person to realize the problem isn’t so much with the person they’re looking at as much as the person in the mirror. I don’t meet many people like that.

I agree that it’s harder to overcome a bad start and win over hearts and minds, than it is to have a wonderful start and then later lose the trust of your peers. But both can be accomplished over time.

I also agree, in general, with your assessment on recommendations. But I think l I have a pretty good feel on who’ll give me a solid, honest recommendation (good or bad!) about a candidate and who is just blowing smoke. For some people, that’s tough to differentiate. So, on that note, in general I appreciate the system of word-of-mouth and recommendations. You just have to understand where it’s coming from. I much more prefer a person who is recommended highly by a person that I trust (and there are few..) than a person that may look good on paper but the recommender that I trust doesn’t have the best things to say.
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Agree Southpaw. In the beginning of your career YES you do not want to piss off anybody.
However when you collect enough experience and know what you can do you, you do not need any schmuck to give you reference, even if is pollitical.
Just be in touch with people who really, really know you..Reputation will come because they are worse than you 😉
 
Yup, thanks to all who contributed. Lots of learning for someone like me coming out of fellowship.

I have a question : I'm applying late for jobs for next year. I applied to a fairly big PP group on the coast, they scheduled me for an interview but are not paying for travel/accomodation. I'm very interested in the job but honestly it will really hurt my budget to fly out there, which I mentioned to them and they said it's their policy. Is this a huge red flag ?

Thanks
 
FFP said:
It's so friggin' easy to be judgmental. You know the saying "you never get a second chance to make a first impression"? That's exactly what happens when one comes with the "rotten egg" reputation.

I know how that works. I was one of the superstars in my high school. As Trump would say, I could have taken a pee in the middle of the classroom and people would have forgiven it. On the other hand, if some poor soul, who had underperformed for a while because his family was going through a tough time, suddenly started to show some promise, it would have been considered an accident for a very long time.

In American medicine, all it takes is to piss off the wrong person. It's a much smaller world than people imagine. In somebody with no/minimal malpractice history, I wouldn't care much what some third-party says about them (except to bring it up with the candidate and see the reaction), unless that third-party is both a great anesthesiologist AND human being. A reference is worth exactly as much as the person it's coming from (especially his/her people knowledge). I constantly work with residents who come with good recommendations from colleagues, just to discover how weak they are professionally (but how great at brown-nosing).
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It sounds like you had a couple bad experiences, but probably have found a good place now since i see that you are a GOLD DONOR!
 
wickedskillz said:
Yup, thanks to all who contributed. Lots of learning for someone like me coming out of fellowship.

I have a question : I'm applying late for jobs for next year. I applied to a fairly big PP group on the coast, they scheduled me for an interview but are not paying for travel/accomodation. I'm very interested in the job but honestly it will really hurt my budget to fly out there, which I mentioned to them and they said it's their policy. Is this a huge red flag ?

Thanks
Click to expand...
It doesn’t matter if its a “red flag” or not. If you are interested in the group then go to the interview, suck up the cost since you won’t even remember it in a year, and see what they have to offer. At the least you gain interview experience. That experience is invaluable. You get more comfortable interviewing. You get something to compare other groups too. You get better at knowing what you are looking for in a group. The list goes on.
 
wickedskillz said:
Yup, thanks to all who contributed. Lots of learning for someone like me coming out of fellowship.

I have a question : I'm applying late for jobs for next year. I applied to a fairly big PP group on the coast, they scheduled me for an interview but are not paying for travel/accomodation. I'm very interested in the job but honestly it will really hurt my budget to fly out there, which I mentioned to them and they said it's their policy. Is this a huge red flag ?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I agree with @Noyac. If it’s a solid above board group and you’re not wasting your time, just pay it all and forget it.
 
anbuitachi said:
It sounds like you had a couple bad experiences, but probably have found a good place now since i see that you are a GOLD DONOR!
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Yeah. $40/2 years is a lot. I would encourage more people to donate to SDN.

Btw, I was not talking about myself in that post. I just have seen bad stuff happen even to good people. Thank Gods I don't have a malpractice history or other red flags, besides the ones I can't fix (I am good looking, I am a US grad and I have a perfect English accent).
 
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FFP said:
Yeah. $40/2 years is a lot. I would encourage more people to donate to SDN.

Btw, I was not talking about myself in that post. I just have seen bad stuff happen even to good people. Thank Gods I don't have a malpractice history or other red flags, besides the ones I can't fix (I am good looking, I am a US grad and I have a perfect English accent).
Click to expand...

The perfect English accent, or American accent? And why the hell do you need to be good looking? Are they asking for pics before they interview you?
I am always weary when they ask for those. Only done so for licensing but it still bugs me. Like why do you care what I look like? What does it matter?

Yeah, yeah, I know. Good looking people get the better jobs, and such, and I am decent looking, but why are pics necessary? Besides for drivers licenses. What do they do with all those pics anyway? Anyway, off tangent. Good looks don't make a good doc.
 
chocomorsel said:
The perfect English accent, or American accent? And why the hell do you need to be good looking? Are they asking for pics before they interview you?
I am always weary when they ask for those. Only done so for licensing but it still bugs me. Like why do you care what I look like? What does it matter?

Yeah, yeah, I know. Good looking people get the better jobs, and such, and I am decent looking, but why are pics necessary? Besides for drivers licenses. What do they do with all those pics anyway? Anyway, off tangent. Good looks don't make a good doc.
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You are absolutely correct, Choco. But you can’t deny that the world just doesn’t work that way. No matter how we try to change it, looks matter. If we are advanced enough, as some people are, to ignore looks or not let it influence their decisions then that is an impressive skill. But I’d argue that even these people are influenced some none the less even if subconsciously. It is in our DNA. So my point is, don’t break your neck trying to fix it/them.
 
Big Swinging Doc said:
or he's from Santa Cruz or Redding. Each of those Dignity hospital groups has lost six or seven anesthesiologists in the last year, and I wouldn't fault them for sincerely coming to Student Doctor Network looking for help recruiting.

OP, if you are from Santa Cruz or Redding, I apologize.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me more about what happened in Redding and Santa Cruz? Did Dignity Health buy their hospitals and they subsequently had a mass exodus? Were they made employees? Why'd they leave?
 
New to a long conversation. I have been in the recruiting role for the last 2 years. I do understand what is meant by the desperate CVs sent from recruiters. Most of the applicants I get from recruiters are pretty lame, or they simply went around a CRNA school and told them all to let him send their names out. So many spelling mistakes, it was quite frustrating.

To some of the recruiters, the Midwest is anywhere from Pennsylvania to Idaho, and I will get all sorts of CVs from people who are poor fits. Location and connection to that location are very important. I prefer people who contact me through gaswork or from a friend, especially so I do not have to pay a $25,000 recruiter's fee (for MD) for such minimal work that recruiters do.

I will tell you that the biggest improvement in getting interested and competent applicants was offering a better salary and compensation package. It is a little tougher to attract to a Midwest city than on the coasts, since those are where the population centers are. But our compensation package for the MD spot that was open last year actually gathered a lot of attention and we filled it pretty quickly with a high quality MD.
 
Impromptu said:
New to a long conversation. I have been in the recruiting role for the last 2 years. I do understand what is meant by the desperate CVs sent from recruiters. Most of the applicants I get from recruiters are pretty lame, or they simply went around a CRNA school and told them all to let him send their names out. So many spelling mistakes, it was quite frustrating.

To some of the recruiters, the Midwest is anywhere from Pennsylvania to Idaho, and I will get all sorts of CVs from people who are poor fits. Location and connection to that location are very important. I prefer people who contact me through gaswork or from a friend, especially so I do not have to pay a $25,000 recruiter's fee (for MD) for such minimal work that recruiters do.

I will tell you that the biggest improvement in getting interested and competent applicants was offering a better salary and compensation package. It is a little tougher to attract to a Midwest city than on the coasts, since those are where the population centers are. But our compensation package for the MD spot that was open last year actually gathered a lot of attention and we filled it pretty quickly with a high quality MD.
Click to expand...
Gathered a lot of attention from Gaswork or word of mouth/networking?
Cuz apparently according to SDN, gaswork is for the lamest, poorest paying, crappiest jobs.
 
chocomorsel said:
Gathered a lot of attention from Gaswork or word of mouth/networking?
Cuz apparently according to SDN, gaswork is for the lamest, poorest paying, crappiest jobs.
Click to expand...

SDN is hyperbolic on a lot of things. There are good jobs out there on gasworks (even, *gasp* AMC ones), but you MUST know how to navigate around the garbage.

This is true of just about any job search board and is not unique to our specialty.
 
Gaswork is different state by state. Location is key. Look at Utah, there are no jobs posted there. But there are so many anesthesiologists that want to live there, that jobs do not need to be advertised. People cold call them all the time. As a resident when I was looking to move near some family there I was told that one hospital had 50 applicants for 2 part time spots. Another said they had 15 applicants for no spots, but you could keep your name on a list and a job comes available every couple of years and they have no trouble hiring someone for pretty crummy pay until they make partner 2-3 years later.

Other jobs are in lower population areas, so the number of anesthesiologists wanting to live there (having grown up there and/or having family there) is pretty low, so they need to actively advertise. It is not that those areas are not good places to live, or that the jobs are bad, it is just that many people want to be near where they have family, which tend to be the higher population areas.

Other states are full of jobs that cannot fill because of the low pay, poor working conditions, or constant churning by the owners. These are the poor jobs that Gaswork critics complain about. They have often been turned over to recruiters. I often filter out recruiters when searching and finding gems is easier.

You can find good jobs. You can find crummy jobs. It is really location and timing dependent. The job I advertised on Gaswork was a good job (self bias) that paid well (no bias there), but you had to want to live in this area. I found applicants through both word of mouth and through Gaswork. Word of mouth is somewhat limited to those that are already working in your region, and the this part of the Midwest is a tight market, so Gaswork added some good choices for us from a bit farther away.

As to what I learn from the crème de la crème that post SDN, I take comments with a grain of salt. Like much of social media, there is a tendency to put one's best face forward. I will often take that best face and try and integrate some of those things into my own practice. It has made a difference. No one is going to post their malpractice worthy tales, as that would just invite lawyers to pay even more attention to the site than we do. ​
 
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