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I guess the key thing would be to prevent the conversation from going in that direction, but it's pretty hard when it's something like, "I hurt my knee back in 2003, but thanks to my faith, I recovered. Do you know about this faith, and have you accepted it?"
I too live in a disturbingly religious area of the country and deal with this stuff every day. It's not just patients either. 6 rotations into third year and I've only worked with one physician who wasn't pretty vocal about having fundamentalist christian, young earth creationist, evolution denying beliefs. No way to prove it, but I'm pretty sure that preceptors figuring out I wasn't on the same page when I'd deflect their religious questions has negatively impacted at least a couple of evaluations.
Once, after a perfectly pleasant 20 minute conversation with a patient, as we're wrapping things up, she asks bluntly: "so, where do you go to church?" That's kind of hard to deflect. I went for the honesty route and just said I didn't. She then made a disgusted face and just walked away.
Not a religious issue, but a similar situation...On my outpatient psych rotation last month, the doc I was with is a big time gun nut. Keep in mind, this is a couple of weeks after the Sandy Hook shooting, and in at least 3 or 4 sessions a day, completely unprompted by the patient, he launches into these pro-gun, anti Obama diatribes with "facts" that are either totally twisted or completely made up. During one session he does this, and the son of the patient says: "you're preaching to the choir doc, I think everyone here agrees with what you're saying," then he looks over at me, apparently subconsciously shaking my head no, and says: "RIGHT???!?! !" then gets all bent out of shape, starts breathing really heavy, and storms out after the session was over.
I guess the point is, deflect and redirect when you can, but some people are just gonna press the issue and if they have a big problem, screw 'em.
"I hurt my knee back in 2003, but thanks to my faith, I recovered. Do you know about this faith, and have you accepted it?"
This is a really big fear of mine, and I'm sorry you're going through that. I'm likely going to be in the same position next year. I've already had lecturers that insert bible verses in their lectures or mention that a holy being created these organs, etc. And yes, the first time I ran into this situation, the lady asked me, "So what church do you go to?" after having preached to me for over 10 minutes. My preceptor is religious, but I think he gets the idea that I am not and he's a hell of a guy. I might discuss this with him later.
In an ideal world, being a dissenter would have no bearing on your professional career, but third year clerkship grades aren't exactly based on objectivity - so I've heard. I'm thinking about going to one of the administrators that I know pretty well and discussing this with them, too, especially in the context of preceptors and how to handle it in third year. We have a handful of non-religious people in our class, but I would say the overwhelming majority believes in the same god. There's even a prayer group before every test, for Christ's sake. The culture is insane where I'm at and literally inescapable given the amount of time we have to spend together in the classroom or in clinic.
I was religious for the majority of my life so I'm more than capable of blending in or - let's be honest - lying, but I would be sacrificing... my pride? Myself? All that is good and moral? I don't know. FWIW, all of my best friends are very religious, and I respect them all the same. But they know me and love me and do not directly influence my professional future. I don't know. Does UWorld cover this?
Man, I thought my school was bad but no one has gone anywhere near as far as putting a Bible verse into a power point lol
I imagine you're in the South though.
I think you guys were just unlucky. I went to school in Arkansas, where the locals bible beat with the best of them. While the patients (and doctors and nurses and everyone else...*sigh*) think along the lines of what you're describing, they generally don't directly try to involve you in their beliefs. I'm a long-standing atheist, but I never had any issues navigating people's faith.
How about this possible solution."I am sorry but I am not allowed to discuss religous or political matters with patients at the hospital." followed by something like. Tell me more about the problem your having.
Your patient is being inappropriate here, though they probably don't realize it and mean well. I'd be straight forward and if they are persistent again simply go with the whole "I'm glad you find comfort in your faith, but I'm afraid I don't discuss my religious beliefs at work." And then RAPIDLY move the conversation elsewhere. They should get the hint.
If they persist in wanting to discuss religion rather than their medical care, you need to develop the skills to redirect without offending. I.e. 'We have limited time, I want to be sure we discuss your high blood pressure,' or other similar lines. This will be a common problem with a whole range of topics, not just religion.
If you go to a liberal school, they yell at you if you have conservative or religious views. I'm 1) African American and 2) a Woman, so I don't get bothered, but the few conservative white kids I saw in liberal colleges always got harassed.I go to school in a pretty conservative region, and to put it simply, I see a lot of patients that are very eager to share their beliefs. The problem is that I try to be very honest with patients, and they tend to find out that I am not very religious. As soon as they start talking about their beliefs, I feel that the question "Are you also a believer?" becomes unavoidable. The problem is this, and it never fails: I feel that there is a very perceivable shift in the patient encounter soon after, and either they offer to pray for me or they close off and don't appear as enthusiastic to talk to me or provide me any more relevant history unless I specifically ask.
My question is: is it considered unethical to perhaps exaggerate my religious views in order to establish a better rapport with a patient? I have tried to be completely honest with patients, and it hasn't been too bad but I feel maybe this is a non-issue and that the potential to have patients trust you more supersedes the need for you to be completely honest about something as trivial [to medicine] as religion.
I wish more professors acted like this with their political views.I have to think that sidestepping is the humane thing to do for both sides so long as it's not a detriment to your character. Deflect or satisfy the early questions to stifle the deeper questions that would make things uncomfortable, perhaps a partial truth. Otherwise, if they're persistant and it's inevitable, and you've tried to be considerate, stick to your guns. No one can fault you for honesty and if they do, well, then the question falls on them and their rapport.
This is a really big fear of mine, and I'm sorry you're going through that. I'm likely going to be in the same position next year. I've already had lecturers that insert bible verses in their lectures or mention that a holy being created these organs, etc. And yes, the first time I ran into this situation, the lady asked me, "So what church do you go to?" after having preached to me for over 10 minutes. My preceptor is religious, but I think he gets the idea that I am not and he's a hell of a guy. I might discuss this with him later.
In an ideal world, being a dissenter would have no bearing on your professional career, but third year clerkship grades aren't exactly based on objectivity - so I've heard. I'm thinking about going to one of the administrators that I know pretty well and discussing this with them, too, especially in the context of preceptors and how to handle it in third year. We have a handful of non-religious people in our class, but I would say the overwhelming majority believes in the same god. There's even a prayer group before every test, for Christ's sake. The culture is insane where I'm at and literally inescapable given the amount of time we have to spend together in the classroom or in clinic.
I was religious for the majority of my life so I'm more than capable of blending in or - let's be honest - lying, but I would be sacrificing... my pride? Myself? All that is good and moral? I don't know. FWIW, all of my best friends are very religious, and I respect them all the same. But they know me and love me and do not directly influence my professional future. I don't know. Does UWorld cover this?
This is a really big fear of mine, and I'm sorry you're going through that. I'm likely going to be in the same position next year. I've already had lecturers that insert bible verses in their lectures or mention that a holy being created these organs, etc. And yes, the first time I ran into this situation, the lady asked me, "So what church do you go to?" after having preached to me for over 10 minutes. My preceptor is religious, but I think he gets the idea that I am not and he's a hell of a guy. I might discuss this with him later.
In an ideal world, being a dissenter would have no bearing on your professional career, but third year clerkship grades aren't exactly based on objectivity - so I've heard. I'm thinking about going to one of the administrators that I know pretty well and discussing this with them, too, especially in the context of preceptors and how to handle it in third year. We have a handful of non-religious people in our class, but I would say the overwhelming majority believes in the same god. There's even a prayer group before every test, for Christ's sake. The culture is insane where I'm at and literally inescapable given the amount of time we have to spend together in the classroom or in clinic.
I was religious for the majority of my life so I'm more than capable of blending in or - let's be honest - lying, but I would be sacrificing... my pride? Myself? All that is good and moral? I don't know. FWIW, all of my best friends are very religious, and I respect them all the same. But they know me and love me and do not directly influence my professional future. I don't know. Does UWorld cover this?
I'm not trying to be rude here, but get over it? I went to undergrad at a school that had more institutionalized sanctity than what you described and I was non-religious (at least with respect to the religion they preached). In my gen biochem course, the lecture ended early on Good Friday and the professor told us the importance of Easter and the resurrection for the final 10 minutes of class as part of the lecture presentation. Yes, it's irritating, and yes, what people do can border on the absurd to the point of even being amusing, but to think you're going to be screwed because of differences in theology is ridiculous. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. If you think you're actually being harmed because of your religious beliefs, then talk to your course/clerkship director, ombudsman, or even your dean. I think you're making way too many assumptions though and are assuming the worst when there is very little likelihood that would happen.
All bets are off unless you go to Loma Linda though.
(sent from my phone)
No, you're probably right. I'll know when I get there and will probably resurrect this thread. Looking forward to talking with my preceptor and an admin. to see what they say though.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but get over it? I went to undergrad at a school that had more institutionalized sanctity than what you described and I was non-religious (at least with respect to the religion they preached). In my gen biochem course, the lecture ended early on Good Friday and the professor told us the importance of Easter and the resurrection for the final 10 minutes of class as part of the lecture presentation. Yes, it's irritating, and yes, what people do can border on the absurd to the point of even being amusing, but to think you're going to be screwed because of differences in theology is ridiculous. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. If you think you're actually being harmed because of your religious beliefs, then talk to your course/clerkship director, ombudsman, or even your dean. I think you're making way too many assumptions though and are assuming the worst when there is very little likelihood that would happen.
All bets are off unless you go to Loma Linda though.
(sent from my phone)
Is it really that ridiculous though? I agree it most likely wouldn't have any significant or even noticeable detrimental effect, but I do feel that if a religious person finds out that you are atheist, you will lose some social capital from that person - whether they are liking you less consciously or subconsciously.
I remember hearing about some survey done not too long ago that showed that most Americans distrusted atheists like crazy, like worse than criminals or something like that. Maybe it wasn't general distrust but unwillingness to vote them into public office or something.
Is it really that ridiculous though? I agree it most likely wouldn't have any significant or even noticeable detrimental effect, but I do feel that if a religious person finds out that you are atheist, you will lose some social capital from that person - whether they are liking you less consciously or subconsciously.
I remember hearing about some survey done not too long ago that showed that most Americans distrusted atheists like crazy, like worse than criminals or something like that. Maybe it wasn't general distrust but unwillingness to vote them into public office or something.
I remember hearing about some survey done not too long ago that showed that most Americans distrusted atheists like crazy, like worse than criminals or something like that. Maybe it wasn't general distrust but unwillingness to vote them into public office or something.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=in-atheists-we-distrust
Interesting points from the article:
Gervais and his colleagues presented participants with a story about a person who accidentally hits a parked car and then fails to leave behind valid insurance information for the other driver. Participants were asked to choose the probability that the person in question was a Christian, a Muslim, a rapist, or an atheist. They thought it equally probable the culprit was an atheist or a rapist, and unlikely the person was a Muslim or Christian.
Atheists are one of the most disliked groups in America. Only 45 percent of Americans say they would vote for a qualified atheist presidential candidate, and atheists are rated as the least desirable group for a potential son-in-law or daughter-in-law to belong to.
I really don't have a problem with this. Religion and faith are important parts of American life.
I think good doctors should be able to discuss spirituality and religion with their patients. Maybe this means going to church once in a while.
I really don't have a problem with this. Religion and faith are important parts of American life.
I think good doctors should be able to discuss spirituality and religion with their patients. Maybe this means going to church once in a while.
I really don't have a problem with this. Religion and faith are important parts of American life.
I think good doctors should be able to discuss spirituality and religion with their patients. Maybe this means going to church once in a while.
I'll tell you what. If they will go to medical school for us, then I'll go to church for them.
Just brush it off and tell them some BS like it's policy for students not to share their beliefs.I go to school in a pretty conservative region, and to put it simply, I see a lot of patients that are very eager to share their beliefs. The problem is that I try to be very honest with patients, and they tend to find out that I am not very religious. As soon as they start talking about their beliefs, I feel that the question "Are you also a believer?" becomes unavoidable. The problem is this, and it never fails: I feel that there is a very perceivable shift in the patient encounter soon after, and either they offer to pray for me or they close off and don't appear as enthusiastic to talk to me or provide me any more relevant history unless I specifically ask.
My question is: is it considered unethical to perhaps exaggerate my religious views in order to establish a better rapport with a patient? I have tried to be completely honest with patients, and it hasn't been too bad but I feel maybe this is a non-issue and that the potential to have patients trust you more supersedes the need for you to be completely honest about something as trivial [to medicine] as religion.
That said. I will never, while on duty, say anything that might even possibly be construed as calling a person's faith question. If they ask if I go to church...no ma'am. Are you saved?....sorry sir...I'm not christian. And so on.
It's crazy to think discussing things we have no familiarity with is some kind morally superior approach. That's what we do in this business. If we don't know, we refer. I would refer them to the chaplain. Or the rabbi. Or the imam. And so on.
Slavery was also once an important part of American life. And I'd be willing to bet that in the future religion will also be less important in American life.
Comparing slavery to religion?! Seriously?!
Comparing slavery to religion?! Seriously?!
I really don't have a problem with this. Religion and faith are important parts of American life.
I think good doctors should be able to discuss spirituality and religion with their patients. Maybe this means going to church once in a while.
Alright well I am agonstic.
To me scientology and christianity seem both about as likely.
I am assuming you are a christian. Would you go a scientology meeting a couple times a month to "be able to discuss spirituality and religion?"
Anyhow I try to defer to the hospitals religious people. They can talk to the pt. If they really want to pray, then we will pray. No harm to me, makes them happy, win win.
When they ask if you are a believer, just lie and say you believe in "miracles". When their medicine works and they thank god, you know exactly what was doing the work
No. I'm not doing that. One small lie could easily spin out of control. Lies get too complicated. If I started doing that I'd have to remember who I told what and life is too short to be wasting my time like that.
Feel free. It's not a bad strategy.
Not to defend my position as if there exists a correct answer, but I think it is miraculous that with modern medicine we can do so much. A miracle to a religious person might be divine intervention in their treatment. This simple explanation is satisfactory for myself, and fulfills a void that may be left if the patient is questioning your religious beliefs and you reply in the negative.
"Are you a believer?" - patient
"Yes, I believe in miracles"- me
I didn't say I believed in god and if they follow up with "do you believe in god", when you say no, but there are so many unexplainable things, they may be less likely to be judgmental of you.
Again, this is how I approach the subject. Feel free to do what makes you happy. As discussed above, there are still some people who see atheists as the worst type of sinner, so don't be surprised if you get screamed at for being a heathen. I can't believe I typed all of this out.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=in-atheists-we-distrust
Interesting points from the article:
Atheists are one of the most disliked groups in America. Only 45 percent of Americans say they would vote for a qualified atheist presidential candidate, and atheists are rated as the least desirable group for a potential son-in-law or daughter-in-law to belong to.