Research in medical school - does this count?

[alt91119]

I'm entering a gap year, and will be working on a few research projects during this time. While I will be collaborating with researchers I worked under in undergrad, I will be leading all of these projects. I anticipate being able to get presentable and publishable data out of at least two of these projects before the end of my gap year.

If I have all the data, sit on it for a few months, and then process it at the beginning of MS1 and submit it for publication and to conferences then, will residencies see it as "med school research" or "undergrad/gap-year/non-medschool research"?
If I don't go to med school at the institution whose researchers I collaborated with, I'm assuming I'll just list my affiliations as my current medical school and program directors will just assume I did it there or not care?

I understand I'll still be expected to do research and have productive output with faculty from my medical school during my time there (and plan to do this), but it would be nice to have 5 or 6 "med school pubs" as opposed to 1 0r 2.

P.S. This will be surgery/medical device research (which is the research field I plan to stay in during med school), so it won't "look weird" in that it won't be something obviously not done as research during med school (eg butterfly phenotyping).

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[Lost in Translation]

Interesting question, following to see an answer.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Hmm interesting question. I think the bottom line for assessing someone is that pubs are pubs, productivity is productivity. I don't see why getting, for example, a first author basic science in undergrad is any less than getting one in med school. In fact, I'd probably be more impressed of someone who achieved that as an undergrad. But I do recognize that productivity should be consistent and a lot has to do with luck and connections whether in a gap year/undergrad/professional school. I'm no adcom but if I were an adcom, I would put relatively little weight on when the work was done unless there was some huge disconnect in productivity in med school vs before that. Interested in others' opinions...

 

[22031 Alum]

Your ERAS application will have a box for publications, presentations, and abstracts. There's no Undergrad or Medical School heading within that box. When I see something in that box, I think "Okay, they've produced something from their research" and move on to the actual descriptions for each experience. If I care to tease out exactly what happened when (I rarely do), I have to compare publication dates from the citations, with your entering/graduation dates.

Many, many, many people have their undergrad research published after they've matriculated into med school. It comes with the territory of the acceptance/revision/publication timeline. Purposely sitting on your data so it gets published later is a lame attempt to game the system that actually has no effect.

 

[alt91119]

Your ERAS application will have a box for publications, presentations, and abstracts. There's no Undergrad or Medical School heading within that box. When I see something in that box, I think "Okay, they've produced something from their research" and move on to the actual descriptions for each experience. If I care to tease out exactly what happened when (I rarely do), I have to compare publication dates from the citations, with your entering/graduation dates.

Many, many, many people have their undergrad research published after they've matriculated into med school. It comes with the territory of the acceptance/revision/publication timeline. Purposely sitting on your data so it gets published later is a lame attempt to game the system that actually has no effect.

Thank you for your input!

I published things on this topic as an undergrad too, so that's good to hear. Does this mean that, for all intents and purposes,
2 pubs from undergrad/2 pubs from work during gap year/2 pubs from med school work
is approximately viewed the same as 1 pub undergrad/5 pubs med school, as long as the recommendation letters from your PI in medical school is equivalently strong in both cases?

Additionally, do posters at national/regional conferences count as "presentations," or is that only podium talks?

 

[operaman]

As noted above, pubs are pubs, but the year won't "fool" anyone into thinking you did the work as a medical student. Honestly it doesn't really matter, but it is immediately obvious where the work was done. I'm just a baby in my field and can look through any of our journals and know exactly where it's from just based on the names; no doubt those with more experience are even better at it. Nobody who matters will be fooled into thinking the UG and Gap stuff was done while you were a med student, but it will still look really good and show that you can be productive and move a project from A to Z.

Posters and podium presentations are listed separately. Presentations are generally better, but truthfully there isn't that much difference. Pubs are far superior to both.

I wouldn't sit on finished work for too long. Just get it published when you can. Sitting on it does nothing for you.

 

[Hangry]

Thank you for your input!

I published things on this topic as an undergrad too, so that's good to hear. Does this mean that, for all intents and purposes,
2 pubs from undergrad/2 pubs from work during gap year/2 pubs from med school work
is approximately viewed the same as 1 pub undergrad/5 pubs med school, as long as the recommendation letters from your PI in medical school is equivalently strong in both cases?

Additionally, do posters at national/regional conferences count as "presentations," or is that only podium talks?

1. No they aren't viewed the same. In your hypothetical scenario each student has plenty of pubs and experience that the difference between them is negligible. However, we often get questions in here that go something like "I have 2 pubs from undergrad so I'm set research-wise for residency right?" to which the answer is no. If you want to go into a research heavy field/academic program, you need to demonstrate continued involvement/productivity in medical school and not rest on any undergrad research laurels you may have. Imaging how silly that sounds to PDs "No I promise I want research to be a part of my career even though I completely stopped being involved in it for the last four years." That doesn't fool anyone.

2. Posters and podiums are different, with podium presentations given more weight but as @operaman said, probably irrelevant in the grand scheme with pubs being the ultimate measure of productivity.

 

[alt91119]

1. No they aren't viewed the same. In your hypothetical scenario each student has plenty of pubs and experience that the difference between them is negligible. However, we often get questions in here that go something like "I have 2 pubs from undergrad so I'm set research-wise for residency right?" to which the answer is no. If you want to go into a research heavy field/academic program, you need to demonstrate continued involvement/productivity in medical school and not rest on any undergrad research laurels you may have. Imaging how silly that sounds to PDs "No I promise I want research to be a part of my career even though I completely stopped being involved in it for the last four years." That doesn't fool anyone.

2. Posters and podiums are different, with podium presentations given more weight but as @operaman said, probably irrelevant in the grand scheme with pubs being the ultimate measure of productivity.

I plan on doing research during med school, residency, and my entire career - I love it. I was more concerned with the fact that pubs can often be just as much a measure of connections and luck as they can true productivity, and I wanted to make sure that if I ended up in a situation in med school where publishing more than once or twice was hard that I could still appear as a "research powerhouse" to residencies. I guess the more realistic question is "does 3 pubs in med school and 3 in undergrad/gap year look far better than just 3 in med school," to which the answer appears to be yes.

 

[Hangry]

I plan on doing research during med school, residency, and my entire career - I love it. I was more concerned with the fact that pubs can often be just as much a measure of connections and luck as they can true productivity, and I wanted to make sure that if I ended up in a situation in med school where publishing more than once or twice was hard that I could still appear as a "research powerhouse" to residencies. I guess the more realistic question is "does 3 pubs in med school and 3 in undergrad/gap year look far better than just 3 in med school," to which the answer appears to be yes.

6 pubs looks better than 3, yes. But once you get past the zero pubs barrier, I think the quality of your work is going to be more important than sheer numbers. So are 6 pubs FAR better than 3? All else equal, yes. However if you have 3 9th author pubs in crap journals from undergrad those two people would be about the same despite the pub count. I guess the moral of the story is there is no clear "safe" cutoff that will make you a research "powerhouse" to residencies because it will depend more on the quality of your work.

In the end though, a few pubs in med school is more than enough for probably 95% of applicants to reach their career goals, so just try to find the best projects you can during school and put out quality work and you will do well. Worrying only about pumping out huge numbers of pubs is detrimental, IMO because most of those will have to be crap unless you take a research year.

Caveat- still a med student, interpret my opinions on the matching process with due care.

 

[MaxPlancker]

Hmm, not to hijack this thread, but is there a weight difference between clinical and basic science papers? Assuming similar authorship levels, journal tier, etc.

 

[alt91119]

Hmm, not to hijack this thread, but is there a weight difference between clinical and basic science papers? Assuming similar authorship levels, journal tier, etc.

No worries, I am also interested in this question!

 

[Amba]

I plan on doing research during med school, residency, and my entire career - I love it. I was more concerned with the fact that pubs can often be just as much a measure of connections and luck as they can true productivity, and I wanted to make sure that if I ended up in a situation in med school where publishing more than once or twice was hard that I could still appear as a "research powerhouse" to residencies. I guess the more realistic question is "does 3 pubs in med school and 3 in undergrad/gap year look far better than just 3 in med school," to which the answer appears to be yes.

To be honest, even if you publish twice before med school and then 3 or 4 times in med school, you probably won't be viewed as a "research powerhouse", unless all of those are basic science and in great journals. Keep in mind that applicants to competitive specialties have 7-10 ERAS pubs (which does include abstracts/presentations, but the point remains).

On a positive note, half of publishing is figuring out how to consolidate your data into a cohesive story and putting it on paper. If you use your gap year to learn how to write, it will open many doors and you'll have no problem getting >5 more pubs in med school (especially if you do clinical).