Research: not taken too seriously

[axp107]

Due to my citizenship status and everything, I can't work for a money. I've tried working at 2 different labs.. first lab was useless... the guy made me do b!tch work. I quit.

Joined 2nd lab, not getting much out of it at all. It's frustrating when people don't take you as seriously as they're supposed to b/c they aren't paying you.

Anyone have any advice on what to do? Anyone here work for no pay at a lab and have success?

I'm doing a lot of hospice volunteering, hoping it will perhaps override my lack of "depth" in research. (problem is: I go to a research university). I have a feeling this could hurt me when applying.

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[jochi1543]

Well, what do you WANT to do in those labs? Have you talked to the staff and explained what you want to do and how you could contribute to their work? The whole idea that they don't take you seriously b/c they aren't paying you is somewhat alien to me - if anything, you're free labor, so they should be using you for all you're worth. What are you doing right now? Are you just washing dishes and stuff? Have you tried occupying yourself with other things, ones that you can do w/o major supervision? Maybe try suggesting doing some journal/book research to provide the staff with more information on whatever they are working on next? You won't need them to look over your shoulder 24/7, and still be useful and get some credit for your work. As I've said before, you never realize how hard it is to keep someone busy until you become a supervisor - especially when that someone is not really qualified to do many of the tasks you might need help with.

 

[artaxerxes]

a lot of lab work is bitch work, I don't think payment has much to do with it. if you can get recommendations from them, you should be fine.

 

[axp107]

problem is, I've approached the PI many times.. saying that I want to help with papers/more of the intellectual work. He's agreed and said he'd let me know when something comes up.. except he hasn't notified me of anything all summer and seems too busy with his own work.

 

[calcox]

Having to do "bitch" work as the "new guy" does not sound unusual. Your supervisor may have given you crappy chores to gauge your level of commitment and work ethic. You have to earn better assignments and tasks by proving you are willing to do whatever is necessary. You quit, what does that tell the supervisor. I suggest that in this second lab, you put your head down and chug away at the tasks you are given. Knock them down quickly and with quality and then ask for more. After a bit, ask to expand your responsibilities to include more "substantial" tasks and your supervisor will know you will attack them with the same attitude that you did your "bitch" work.

I personally took my Psych degree from a UC right out of college and worked in a biotech company as a glorified janitor (changing cages, mopping floors, etc.) for about a year before I was able to prove my abilities and value and take on more interesting tasks. You have to earn trust and responsibility, its not just bestowed because you are volunteering your time. Good luck and have patience.

 

[voirlesetoiles]

I hear ya. I worked in two labs last summer... unpaid. The work was really simple and as far from publication-worthy as one can get. My best advice is to stick it out because everyone has to start somewhere... it will build up your resume and maybe even get you through some doors in the future if you decide to do more research.

Can't even begin to tell you how many jobs/extracurriculars I have absolutely detested.... I have quit some of them, and some of them were just too important for med school. If you think it is important, stick it out keeping the eventual outcome in mind.

 

[Fiddlergirl]

Doing the scut work is pretty much what volunteers are for. As an undergraduate I spent half a summer making stock solutions but after awhile I moved up to actual experiments. I think you just have to be patient and prove that you can do whatever you're asked to do.

 

[skinnylindsay]

Keep in mind that working in a lab may be different from actually doing undergrad research in one. I worked in a lab as a tech for a semester and my job was basic lab maintenance (making solutions, cleaning fly boxes, washing dishes, etc...). My lab employs 2-3 students each semester just for this purpose.

After working for a semester, I approached my professor about doing undergraduate research, which is for class credit not pay, and it was during this time that I actually had projects to work on. The number of us doing research was limited by the number of doctoral students and post-docs he had who were willing to work with an undergrad. If your lab is anything like mine, your PI probably doesn't carry out actual experiements, and spends most of his time reading/editing papers and writing grants.

So stick with it, and definitely make it known that you'd be interested in working on an actual research project. A previous lab tech is probably more likely to get priority for open spots than a random undergrad.

 

[nabs86]

I had the same problem. Since I was unpaid, I wasn't covered by the lab's insurance so I wasn't allowed anywhere near the human tissue samples. Just try to get a good recommendation so you can move up to a paid position where you will get more responsibility.

 

[axp107]

Mine isn't a typical lab.. its radiology (MRI) research. So the PI is an MD and does research as well. There are no samples to be prepared or anything.

It's pretty much just... sit in front of the MRI machine (that I can't operate), and basically watch a pig. It's a lot of waiting time. Nothing else. It's pretty simple everytime. So, I stopped going to the actual experiments b/c there was absolutely no point in doing so.

I've wanted to help with data/papers and emailed the PI many times.. but he replies with a "thank you.. i'll let you know".. I mean, I can't force the guy to give me work to do can I. For this past semester, I've just been going and observing, without doing any actual work... there's no way I can.

I haven't really contributed at all.. and a semester has flown by.. it's possible that I might be sitting idle until med school apps time (next year) until I realize, "hey I haven't actually done any research".. how can I even get a recommendation.

 

[streetlight]

I'll go against the grain and advise you to not take the bitchwork. I say leave the lab and find a lab that is actually interested in taking you as a student - not a unpaid technician. I was in a really prestigious lab doing bitchwork - still getting my name put on publications - but doing bitchwork nonetheless. I couldn't take it and left unexpectedly. I approached different PIs through e-mail and then I met with a few who were interested. Right off the bat you tell them you want to do research, learn the techniques and have your own project. Many PIs will be receptive to this, since this is how they were as undergrads. If a PI doesn't want that, oh well, there are other PIs out there. If you're at a research university, it shouldn't be so hard to do so.

Research should be an invigorating experience, not a turn off. Working the first lab made me want to never go into research ever, and working in this lab has given me the insight to go for an MD/PhD.

I hope it all works out for you - keep us updated.

 

[jae9970]

streetlight, i would gladly do b!itchwork to get my name on a publication at a prestigious lab...

to axp,

look for a paying lab position. Then the PI will make some use of you, hopefully.

 

[jon stewart]

cant work either eh? tell me about it.......

 

[Dayfed]

Everyone has to start somewhere. That being said, I'd still keep an open eye out for better research positions. For example, I'm working out the details to research I am going to be doing in the fall. I won't be getting paid for it, but I get credit for guided research (which I need for my major), and I'll actually be doing experiments, with the help of grad students at first and then on my own later. Now, who knows, I haven't started yet, and though the PI said I won't be doing any "clean-up" aka your "bitch work" we shall actually see when I start. I feel that it is okay to not have any experience to start with, because, like my professor said, "I'm getting old and I have to teach the new generation. Everyone must start at some point."

I'd really try to keep every option open at this point, but like others have pointed out, do what you can today in your lab with the best quality you can give. I'm sure if you do that, someone will recognize what you are capable of doing.

 

[Creightonite]

Due to my citizenship status and everything, I can't work for a money. I've tried working at 2 different labs.. first lab was useless... the guy made me do b!tch work. I quit.

Joined 2nd lab, not getting much out of it at all. It's frustrating when people don't take you as seriously as they're supposed to b/c they aren't paying you.

Anyone have any advice on what to do? Anyone here work for no pay at a lab and have success?

I'm doing a lot of hospice volunteering, hoping it will perhaps override my lack of "depth" in research. (problem is: I go to a research university). I have a feeling this could hurt me when applying.

That's normal as far as B$tch work goes. If you can prove your self that you can handle easy work, you will be trusted with something more difficult. Just stick around for long enough. Also, the amount and the level of research at an undergraduate level is pretty low anyways. So do not expect to find a cure for the cancer. Maybe, they will let you run some Westerns that none else wants to do, but it needs to be done. Just stick around for long enough to be promoted into doing something else.

 

[Jolie South]

You don't absolutely have to do clinical research to get research experience. When I was a graduate student, I talked to my advisor to get a feel for professors that were doing stuff I was interested in. Then, I went and talked to one. I explained that I was looking to get experience in research and that I'd work for free. She talked to me about experiments and research that she was interested in completing. It worked out from there. I worked on the experiments and learned a lot from a great professor.

I didn't end up doing clinical research (actually it was invertebrate transgenesis), but I think the fact that you are going through the process and learning the basic skills necessary to conducting research is the point.

That said, maybe you could branch into another area that's equally interesting but maybe outside the clinical arena.

 

[axp107]

Would you recommend that I email a professor or anyone for a research position for next fall? I emailed my advisor and he told me to contact professors and ask them.. except he told me that I wasn't limited to the Biology department (I'm a bio major). What other departments could I contact that are medicine-related?

 

[streetlight]

I would recommend to do that. Do any departments that might interest you. I was in a tissue eng/chem engineering lab at first and hated it, and I joined a neuroscience lab which I loved - it actually helped me choose my major.

There's plenty of options out of biology if you want: neuroscience, psych, bioengineering, biochem, etc. that are still medically related.

 

[jae9970]

Would you recommend that I email a professor or anyone for a research position for next fall? I emailed my advisor and he told me to contact professors and ask them.. except he told me that I wasn't limited to the Biology department (I'm a bio major). What other departments could I contact that are medicine-related?

the research doesnt need to be medicine-related, but if you'd prefer..

and many research labs look for students from diverse background.. the program im in currently, everyone has a different major. So far, ME, ChE, BioE, chemistry, and Aerospace engineering majors..

 

[axp107]

Any other opinions?
should I just wait on the guy... for a response

or do I try somewhere else and hope I have better luck next time

 

[TheRealMD]

Would it be a good idea to e-mail professors now about researching in the fall?

 

[Tropicana100]

Any other opinions?
should I just wait on the guy... for a response

or do I try somewhere else and hope I have better luck next time

The responses you got above are very accurate and thorough. Perhaps you're giving the wrong message to your PI's and upsetting them. You seem to have a rather cavalier attitude that you should be getting your own projects and publishing. That's not the right attitude when entering a lab. You should be willing and eager to do "bitchwork" so that you show your perseverence willingness to learn from others. Also, you are under the impression that you need get paid to be taken seriously. Not true. People in academia look to your intelligence and hard work, not your salary. Unless you have an impressive CV with publications in Nature, I wouldn't expect anything from the get-go when applying to labs. Next time you apply, I recommend expressing interest to your PI in EVENTUALLY tackling your own project, but be willing to do bitch work for some time beforehand. Good luck.

 

[Tropicana100]

Would it be a good idea to e-mail professors now about researching in the fall?

Yep, go for it.

 

[ryandote]

Would it be a good idea to e-mail professors now about researching in the fall?

Definitely, but approach this with tact. Maybe try to get an appointment to come ask questions about their research, as you read a little bit and are potentially interested in volunteering in their lab.

Also, TheRealMD, the younger you are in school the better, because you represent a return on the investment required to train you in their lab. Plus, depth of involvement is much better than washing dishes in a few labs over 3 years. These types of things point to making sure you talk to professors whose research you are actually interested in. Don't get discouraged, because everybody has room for a dishwasher and you could probably slide into something more interesting if you show dependability.

You may have thought of this, but I've got to stay up for another hour or two anyway!

 

[ryandote]

Due to my citizenship status and everything, I can't work for a money. I've tried working at 2 different labs.. first lab was useless... the guy made me do b!tch work. I quit.

Joined 2nd lab, not getting much out of it at all. It's frustrating when people don't take you as seriously as they're supposed to b/c they aren't paying you.

Anyone have any advice on what to do? Anyone here work for no pay at a lab and have success?

I'm doing a lot of hospice volunteering, hoping it will perhaps override my lack of "depth" in research. (problem is: I go to a research university). I have a feeling this could hurt me when applying.

As others have pointed out, lab work is scut work. You don't walk into medical school and perform surgery. Maybe people aren't taking you seriously because you quit your last lab. Don't "do research" because you need it on your application. That's a mistake and leads to whiny posts like this.

If you have some interest in science, doubtlessly you can find some research that you are actually interested in.

I worked in 2 different labs without pay and had successful experiences, mostly because I liked the work. I didn't publish anything on my own, but I had a few good recommendation, left with an understanding of some research processes, and a definitely greater interest in the subjects.

 

[axp107]

I'm not even doing bitch work now. No work at all.. if you read the other post. There really isn't much "physical" work to do except for mounting a pig on an MRI machine. It's a radiology lab where my PI is a radiologist. The actual running of the machine, only ONE MD/Phd student is allowed to do. There are already enough people to do it. My PI basically wanted me to attend and watch so that it would benefit "me". There was never any work for me to do.

So I asked "Can I help with data collection or anything intellectual" He said "ofcourse ofcourse, definitely... you can review papers and look over them etc..". So since I joined in December, I have done absolutely nothing. I've just gone there and talked to med students basically..

My plan is to join a lab more at the "undergraduate" level such as a Molecular Bio lab or something of that sort where I can atleast run Western Blots.

Plus , I know high school kids who are being assigned to projects the second they join a lab. The first thing my advisor said is "If you're joining a lab and washing dishes even to start off, quit immediately." I'm not even talking about getting published or recognized. Every one of my friends who's joined a lab and is getting paid is doing data work, even getting published. I just want to feel like I'm working.

 

[Tropicana100]

I'm not even doing bitch work now. No work at all.. if you read the other post. There really isn't much "physical" work to do except for mounting a pig on an MRI machine. There are already enough people to do it. My PI basically wanted me to attend and watch so that it would benefit "me". There was never any work for me to do.

So I asked "Can I help with data collection or anything intellectual" He said "ofcourse ofcourse, definitely." So there hasn't been anything for me to do for the last 3 months.

Plus , I know high school kids who are being assigned to projects the second they join a lab. The first thing my advisor said is "If you're joining a lab and washing dishes even to start off, quit immediately"

I really don't want to be mean, but you really got to work on communcation skills, esp. with your PI. You are taking jobs, not knowing what your job entails, which shows a lack of maturity. Several people (above) have been trying to communicate the same message to you, and you still don't get it. Perhaps that's the same reason PI's aren't entrusting you to indepedent projects. Research is NOT about glamour or getting projects, it's about teamwork! You have been talking to SDN researchers, and we feel like we're talking to a brick wall. I doubt you'll do any better communicating with researchers in your job. If I could offer one piece of advice: Think about why you want to do research.

 

[ryandote]

...

My plan is to join a lab more at the "undergraduate" level such as a Molecular Bio lab or something of that sort where I can atleast run Western Blots.

Plus , I know high school kids who are being assigned to projects the second they join a lab. The first thing my advisor said is "If you're joining a lab and washing dishes even to start off, quit immediately." I'm not even talking about getting published or recognized. Every one of my friends who's joined a lab and is getting paid is doing data work, even getting published. I just want to feel like I'm working.

Sorry to hear about your experience in that first lab. Your advisor's advice is pretty dubious, as I think that the skill required to work at all in a number of labs takes more than a day to acquire. If the new people don't wash any dishes, who does? Eventually, everybody does, but you should expect that, to start. Is it possible that your advisor is looking to help you "check the box" on your app for research.

I'm wondering what is so special about those highschoolers and friends, or maybe what is deficient about you that you aren't getting assigned to projects the second day or getting paid and published.

I guess I'm not sure what magical advice you are looking for. Anyway, drop the MRI lab because it sounds like you don't like it and it probably isn't even padding your app.

 

[axp107]

I really don't want to be mean, but you really got to work on communcation skills, esp. with your PI. You are taking jobs, not knowing what your job entails, which shows a lack of maturity. Several people (above) have been trying to communicate the same message to you, and you still don't get it. Perhaps that's the same reason PI's aren't entrusting you to indepedent projects. Research is NOT about glamour or getting projects, it's about teamwork! You have been talking to SDN researchers, and we feel like we're talking to a brick wall. I doubt you'll do any better communicating with researchers in your job. If I could offer one piece of advice: Think about why you want to do research.

I don't expect you to understand. You're talking about a ladder to work up and teamwork. There is no ladder. I wasn't really posting here for advice.. it was more to see if other people had similar experiences. My PI basically thinks I'm simply shadowing researchers... despite my continued interest. Yes it is a communication problem because he never made it clear to me in the first place. Why I want to do research? To pad my app like 99% of the people on these boards. I've got 2 years left. Not making any more mistakes.

 

[ryandote]

Why I want to do research? To pad my app like 99% of the people on these boards. I've got 2 years left. Not making any more mistakes.

Glad that's out of the way. Seriously.

If it is really just to pad your app, find somewhere you can get published and learn about the project enough to competently describe it to interviewers. Just doing research is good. Over time makes you look dedicated. A good LOR can help you look competent and intelligent. However, a publication says all those things and more.

Before I get jumped on, I don't condone padding your app. I think misrepresenting yourself is bad. Also, you don't need a publication to show that you learned and accomplished during your research experience. However, it is something very concrete to point at.

 

[rmorriso]

Don't worry as much about research, make sure you keep up with volunteering. Clinical experience easily trumps research. I got three acceptances with absolutely no research experience outside of undergrad lab independent projects, but I filled that void with ER shadowing and hospital volunteering.

 

[senseiturtle]

- The above poster is absolutely right about clinical experience. If you're not really interested in research, then you're way better off getting that.

As far as research itself is concerned, your better bet might be approaching a graduate student in your lab. Make yourself available to him/her, do what they want you to do, learn what they're doing and offer suggestions if you can.

I worked as a student worker in a lab for 4 years, and basically got nothing out of it until I started getting buddy-buddy with the graduate student. My P.I. didn't teach me squat, it was he who allowed me to help develop his project, and I got a lot out of it.

In fact, he wanted to put my name on something, but my P.I. recommended against it. I was quite upset, to say the least.

What I did get, however, was the valuable experience and a very strong direct-interaction letter which helped me to get my current research associate position under a different professor, who actually gives a crap about his underlings.

 

[trevagandalf]

I don't expect you to understand. You're talking about a ladder to work up and teamwork. There is no ladder. I wasn't really posting here for advice.. it was more to see if other people had similar experiences. My PI basically thinks I'm simply shadowing researchers... despite my continued interest. Yes it is a communication problem because he never made it clear to me in the first place. Why I want to do research? To pad my app like 99% of the people on these boards. I've got 2 years left. Not making any more mistakes.

Since you really don't have a background in radiology or anything related is not like you can interpret the MRIs and do anything except collect data. I did clinical research before and basically all you can get is a good rec letter, very few people gets publications in clinical research as a pre-med. Since you are looking for publications, I would suggest you join a lab that actually does hands on experimental research other than observational research. And make sure you search you PI in pubmed and make sure he publishes a lot. Then stick to it for a few semesters then ask for an independent project or part in a project.

 

[axp107]

Since you really don't have a background in radiology or anything related is not like you can interpret the MRIs and do anything except collect data. I did clinical research before and basically all you can get is a good rec letter, very few people gets publications in clinical research as a pre-med. Since you are looking for publications, I would suggest you join a lab that actually does hands on experimental research other than observational research. And make sure you search you PI in pubmed and make sure he publishes a lot. Then stick to it for a few semesters then ask for an independent project or part in a project.

I'm not dead focused on publications or anything. But ofcourse, it'd be awesome to get one. I'd rather do something I like and not get a pub.. than do something I hate (and get a pub) but can't even talk about in interviews

 

[ryandote]

I'm not dead focused on publications or anything. But ofcourse, it'd be awesome to get one. I'd rather do something I like and not get a pub.. than do something I hate (and get a pub) but can't even talk about in interviews

Interesting way to think if you are just trying to pad your application. If you are published, you should easily be able to talk about your involvement in the project.

 

[gujuDoc]

Doing the scut work is pretty much what volunteers are for. As an undergraduate I spent half a summer making stock solutions but after awhile I moved up to actual experiments. I think you just have to be patient and prove that you can do whatever you're asked to do.

The bolded is the most important part of this post and most important point on this thread.

To get fruitful research opportunities you have to prove yourself and start from groundup. The people I know who had the best undergrad research opportunities started ground up working in the lab 3-4 years before they were promoted to positions that allowed them to oversee other undergrads and get possible names on papers.

 

[gatrandy]

I haven't had the same trouble as you guys. You have to find the small labs where there is enough interesting work to go around. I make contact lenses of different chemical components and try to load them with drugs - the entire project from start to finish is mine. Sure, I have to clean glassware, but so does everyone else in the lab except the PhD's. Any PI not giving you a project after 2 months of crap work - go find someplace else. Good PI's can think of a project for you immediatly, even if you aren't ready to take it on. So ask them, before you start working, what project they eventually see you doing. Don't LET yourself get used.

- My 2 cents

 

[Tropicana100]

I haven't had the same trouble as you guys. You have to find the small labs where there is enough interesting work to go around. I make contact lenses of different chemical components and try to load them with drugs - the entire project from start to finish is mine. Sure, I have to clean glassware, but so does everyone else in the lab except the PhD's. Any PI not giving you a project after 2 months of crap work - go find someplace else. Good PI's can think of a project for you immediatly, even if you aren't ready to take it on. So ask them, before you start working, what project they eventually see you doing. Don't LET yourself get used.

- My 2 cents

Good advice, but people here don't have any trouble. It's the OP who is having a problem getting projects. Here lies his problem: he wants to be paid, have independent projects, and possibly publish. Yet he's taking jobs without knowing what they're about. He rarely discusses goals with his PI. To add to that, he lacks any patience with "bitchwork." I think the thread has sufficient pointers for the OP to give it another shot. However, his reasons for doing research are a still flawed.

 

[mikeinsd]

You seem to be making it as clear to your PI as you did to us that you dont really care about research, you just need something to put on your app. Guess what... labs see lots of ppl just like you, with no interest in a career in research but who want to write papers so they can get into med school... the secret is to have a little tact about it, because if you have made it as obvious to your PI as you have to us how you feel, then i dont blame him...

that said, if I were you I would quit, it doesnt sound like your PI is going to be sympathetic to your desires, and I know what you mean when you say you just want to do actual work