Residencies pointless?

[Its Z]

---

Members don't see this ad.

HUP?

there's a couple of us working on PGY-2s now who are eyeing those spots.

You just started!!!

 

[njac]

remember that PharmaTope did a residency, but lives in an insanely saturated area and was unable to find a job immediately after finishing residency.

There's some reason to be as jaded as that individual is, but they've gotten a bit preachy.

I've been a PGY-2 for a week today and I'm already getting headhunter calls.

 

[joetrisman]

I've been a PGY-2 for a week today and I'm already getting headhunter calls.

I think I speak for quite a few pharm schoolers when I say thank you for that comment. Makes me feel there is still some hope to be had 👍

 

[spacecowgirl]

A residency is just another way to open doors for you. I did not need a residency to get my job, but I am much better at my job for it. I am starting programs and projects I never would have been able to without a residency.

I don't make more money than my coworkers who didn't do a residency, but I have different responsibilities than them - less staffing, more "clinical" work. I did a residency for better job satisfaction so in my case, it served its purpose.

It certainly wasn't pointless for me. 😕

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Are you on drugs?

Residency isn't school...it's work. It'll be a cold day in hell when I would allow a distance residency where I'm paying a salary to a resident to sit home and play on the computer all day.

Say I'm crazy now...they said the same thing
with the PharmD...the extra hands on experience...blah blah...
You watch...in 10 years someone will offer a for profit "residency"...people'll be doing metaanalyses about Lovenox in the obese and **** in they pajamas...stupid ass resident posters at the ashp meeting as far as the eye can see...

It's how this credential arms race bull**** works...

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Are you on drugs?

Not anymore...im off my adderall without the health insurance.

 

[FruitFly]

incorrect and i dont appreciate attacks on me. im giving realistic opinions rather than drinking the pharmacy kool-aid. you clearly are still under brainwashing from your school of pharmacy.

you telling me that residency trained people are better than nonresidency? how do you figure? you think that someone with years of experience is not qualified bc they didnt take a 50k paycut to run around doing free work? that is total nonsense. you think that a piece of paper vs 20 yrs of experience makes a difference? pull your head out of your ass.

I would have to agree with this. 1 year of residency does not a clinician make...

There are many who promote residencies so much in the profession, that it changes the culture just based on word of mouth and perception, but the reality needs to be reexamined.

 

[KARM12]

It seems the people who are strongly against residency are those that have not done one.

Honestly, the amount of "free labor" I have been over my past two years of residency has been minimal. I staffed one weekend/month and one day a week as a PGY1. As a PGY2 it was every 3rd weekend doing clinical protocols. My time was spent working up patients, topic discussions, and working on projects that the staff pharmacists did not want to do. During my PGY2, staff pharmacists and even other specialists were paging me constantly for help with difficult patients because I had the time to work through them and in the process learn. Residency is not school and it is not cheap labor. They pay you less because you get much out of it through the learning process and the day to day pharmacy operations I had very little to do with,

 

[jinga]

I think a PGY-1 and 2 residency is worth it IF it = job satisfaction. Job satisfaction can't be measured by salary - it's honestly probably one of the most important things in life...

 

[Rebel78]

Whatever makes you happy is "what makes it worth it." For me, I wanted to do a residency when I graduated. I ended up working for WAG and working a 7-on, 7 B-rate schedule for 5 years.

I wouldn't trade the WAG experience (i.e. CASH!!) for any residency out there 😀

Now I'm staff at a hospital with a lot of savings in the account and stuff paid off. My satisfaction is high.

 

[rph3664]

It seems the people who are strongly against residency are those that have not done one.

I'm not against residencies. I'm against people being pushed into them when they don't want to, and hiring a new grad with a residency over someone with many years' experience.

 

[aboveliquidice]

I would have to agree with this. 1 year of residency does not a clinician make...

There are many who promote residencies so much in the profession, that it changes the culture just based on word of mouth and perception, but the reality needs to be reexamined.

1 yr residencies alone make little sense. It would be more prudent to simply become a hospital staff pharmacist.

Maybe that is where confusion is setting in. PGY1 is really an extension of your final year rotations with more responsibility and inpatient focus (ignoring amb care/community residencies). The idea is to allow you to evaluate different disciplines of inpatient pharmacy and decide which one to specialize in.

If you have no interest in specializing, why do a residency? In school, this was very clearly explained to us. I have a feeling this is less elucidated elsewhere.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

1 yr residencies alone make little sense. It would be more prudent to simply become a hospital staff pharmacist.

Maybe that is where confusion is setting in. PGY1 is really an extension of your final year rotations with more responsibility and inpatient focus (ignoring amb care/community residencies). The idea is to allow you to evaluate different disciplines of inpatient pharmacy and decide which one to specialize in.

If you have no interest in specializing, why do a residency? In school, this was very clearly explained to us. I have a feeling this is less elucidated elsewhere.

It is. 1 year of residency is basically seen as a way to get a staff job easier. That's why I have a problem with them. They are taking spots away from people interested in specialization...and not really doing anything long term...and paying people less out of school.

 

[PharmaTope]

well up until recently you could do the specialty residency you wanted. NOW they make you do the PGY-1. the whole reason behind it is to force people to do an extra year of low pay work to help hospitals.

pgy-1 before pgy-2 is of no benefit and people see it as a way of getting to the pgy-2 they want so they deal with it.

 

[FruitFly]

1 yr residencies alone make little sense. It would be more prudent to simply become a hospital staff pharmacist.

Maybe that is where confusion is setting in. PGY1 is really an extension of your final year rotations with more responsibility and inpatient focus (ignoring amb care/community residencies). The idea is to allow you to evaluate different disciplines of inpatient pharmacy and decide which one to specialize in.

If you have no interest in specializing, why do a residency? In school, this was very clearly explained to us. I have a feeling this is less elucidated elsewhere.

Agreed.

 

[KARM12]

It is. 1 year of residency is basically seen as a way to get a staff job easier. That's why I have a problem with them. They are taking spots away from people interested in specialization...and not really doing anything long term...and paying people less out of school.

My experience is that many people enter PGY1 thinking they want to specialize. For example out of the 10 PGY1's I've worked with...3 ended up doing speciality residencies and the rest were initially interested, but decided against it. Being a specialist isn't for everyone, just like working retail isn't for everyone.

 

[TemSirolimus]

at what point does a clinical pharmacy resident get over the fact that the full extent of what they can do is just recommend something but NOT not make any real calls?

How is that different from just doing bi*tch work work for the MDs? Most of the times, the "clinical" pharmacist has to look it up in their fancy Apps anyways.

Someone educate me here...

But hey, someone will pay a clinical pharmacist 80K a year, so they must be worth something. So to each his own. Ya...I think residencies are pointless, other than help you get a job.

 

[Glycerin]

But, the new trend for the past 10 years has been "clinical/staff" hybrid pharmcist who processes physician orders while doing clinical duties working on the floors. For that role, a year of residency can do a world of good in preparing a pharmacist. Straight out of pharmacy school, I will not put that green pharmacist on the floor unless I train them extensively.

This is exactly how it is where I work on the West coast and has been for a very long time. I think, personally, that this model is the direction where health system pharmacy should go. I think there is a disconnect when there are separate clinical and staffing positions exclusively.

I want to know how you can figure a person running around doing rounds and preparing a poster to present with some staffing on the side is somehow a better candidate for a staffing position than a person that has exclusively done staffing for a year.

I can see how a person with a residency would be a better fit for "clinical" work or whatever you want to call it...but how can anyone honestly tell me that they would make a better staff pharmacist than a person who has exclusively been a staff pharmacist with no other side responsibilities.

Because of what I typed above, rounding + verifying orders + paging physicians when their orders are wrong and documenting interventions, thus proving our worth + doing multiple monographs/P&T presentations + plus doing an MUE + weekend staffing/clinical + administrative stuff + leading staff development topics + lots of other things I did as a resident = me highly qualified for said hybrid model of pharmacy. In fact, I took a pretty specialized position with just a PGY-1, and almost all of our pharmacists have done a residency and/or have 20+ years of experience.

At the health system where I did my residency and stayed on, it will still require a lot of training for a pharmacist who has only had "purely staffing" positions.

It seems the people who are strongly against residency are those that have not done one.

It does appear to be that way.

 

[Its Z]

Oh looky... it's Glycerin...

 

[Glycerin]

But hey, someone will pay a clinical pharmacist 80K a year, so they must be worth something.

80K? Where? I'm making 6 figures, like many other pharmacists.

 

[Glycerin]

Oh looky... it's Glycerin...

Always here, usually lurking. You know, with all my free time and all...oh wait, I have that now.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Because of what I typed above, rounding + verifying orders + paging physicians when their orders are wrong and documenting interventions, thus proving our worth + doing multiple monographs/P&T presentations + plus doing an MUE + weekend staffing/clinical + administrative stuff + leading staff development topics + lots of other things I did as a resident = me highly qualified for said hybrid model of pharmacy. In fact, I took a pretty specialized position with just a PGY-1, and almost all of our pharmacists have done a residency and/or have 20+ years of experience.

So doing some staff pharmacist roles and other barely tangential roles magically makes you better at being a staff pharmacist than a person that during that same period was nothing but a staff pharmacist? Uhhuh...

Are you more qualified to have an anticoag clinic? Sure. But being a generalist staffer? Sorry...I just don't buy it.

 

[Glycerin]

and other barely tangential roles

Okay. I won't waste anymore keystrokes on that aside to say that I went through the year, you didn't.

Are you more qualified to have an anticoag clinic? Sure.

Who said anything about anticoag or amcare? If I wanted that type of job, I would have done an amcare-focused residency.

But being a generalist staffer? Sorry...I just don't buy it.

Again, reread. We don't do "general staffer" here. All positions are hybrid. But, I wouldn't expect you to buy the concept or the reality that things learned by doing a residency absolutely bumps up the qualification for an applicant for this model of pharmacy; you're much too cynical and/or apathetic. Honestly, I put the info out there for others interested in seeing how a residency will fit into a hybrid model job and to agree with Z and Karm.

 

[Its Z]

So doing some staff pharmacist roles and other barely tangential roles magically makes you better at being a staff pharmacist than a person that during that same period was nothing but a staff pharmacist? Uhhuh...

Are you more qualified to have an anticoag clinic? Sure. But being a generalist staffer? Sorry...I just don't buy it.

Let me answer this.

Does doing a residency help you become a better Meditech order entry pharmacist than a pharmacist without a residency? Maybe not. But order entry isn't everything. In fact, I would consider it a bare minimum hospital pharmacist duty.

Residents spend a lot of time reading mundane journals and guidelines..and should end up with a broader and more comprehesive knowledge of disease management in pharmacotherapy. Also, protocol and pathway development residents are involved with allows them to have a better understanding of the medication delivery system at a clinical and operational level at the facility. Because I employ hybrid clinical/staff pharmacist, I believe residency trained pharmacist will be better at identifying and making interventions compared to a fresh grad. It's my opinion based on having worked with and trained many pharmacists.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Let me answer this.

Does doing a residency help you become a better Meditech order entry pharmacist than a pharmacist without a residency? Maybe not. But order entry isn't everything. In fact, I would consider it a bare minimum hospital pharmacist duty.

Order entry is as clinical as it gets. You've got everything you need to make relevant interventions. Diagnosis, drugs, labs, pt history. It's not retail...you check their K+ when putting in a KCL bag...you check their phos when you put in phoslo. I don't think you give it enough respect. That or your expectations are low towards those doing it.

Residents spend a lot of time reading mundane journals and guidelines..and should end up with a broader and more comprehesive knowledge of disease management in pharmacotherapy.

And staffers don't? I did...and still do. Hell, I had a damned notebook with guidelines in it. We had an intraoffice journal club going. And for the sake of argument, let's say they don't...one year of being forced to read journals magically makes someone have a better clinical mind forever? Please.

Also, protocol and pathway development residents are involved with allows them to have a better understanding of the medication delivery system at a clinical and operational level at the facility.

You would probably have a point here...but let's be honest, does a staffer really care about this?

Because I employ hybrid clinical/staff pharmacist, I believe residency trained pharmacist will be better at identifying and making interventions compared to a fresh grad. It's my opinion based on having worked with and trained many pharmacists.

Of course they are. They have a year of experience. We're talking about the collective experience of residency versus one year of hard staffing strictly towards how good of a staff pharmacist either would make.

Don't get me wrong...I could totally see how YOU would be all for residencies. It removes having to deal with the awkward "welcome to the real world" phase all of us went through from your plate...via the proxy of some other institution, to boot. But for a pharmacist...and I'm strictly talking about those that want to be generalist pharmacists doing staffing...it sucks that this phase is being done at half the salary when up until a few years ago, it was done pretty much exclusively at full salary.

 

[Its Z]

Order entry is as clinical as it gets. You've got everything you need to make relevant interventions. Diagnosis, drugs, labs, pt history. It's not retail...you check their K+ when putting in a KCL bag...you check their phos when you put in phoslo. I don't think you give it enough respect. That or your expectations are low towards those doing it.

I did order entry for 12 years. C'mon dude..quit it with the elementary electrolyte examples...at least if you're going to talk about electrolytes, talk about Ca++ and need for albumin adjustment.. I'm talking about doing the APACHE II score for Xigris... then convincing the Intensivist why Xigris won't help.. Dosing Argatroban or Lepirudin.... talking to cardiologist why heparin loading dose for AMI should be 60 u/kg instead of 70 u/kg... knowing the iron store before Epo is dispensed.. why Timentin is necessary... or convince docs to use Continuous infusion Zosyn..

And staffers don't? I did...and still do. Hell, I had a damned notebook with guidelines in it. We had an intraoffice journal club going. And for the sake of argument, let's say they don't...one year of being forced to read journals magically makes someone have a better clinical mind forever? Please.

So you're studious.. and motivated to learn. How much more would you have learned with a residency.

Of course they are. They have a year of experience. We're talking about the collective experience of residency versus one year of hard staffing strictly towards how good of a staff pharmacist either would make.

There's a lot more to pharmacy operation and practice than processing orders. Residents get exposure to activities a typical staff and student don't. Unless you can see the big picture, you will never be convinced of why residency is beneficial.

If you think residency is nothing more than a ploy for cheap labor, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Again, reread. We don't do "general staffer" here. All positions are hybrid. But, I wouldn't expect you to buy the concept or the reality that things learned by doing a residency absolutely bumps up the qualification for an applicant for this model of pharmacy; you're much too cynical and/or apathetic. Honestly, I put the info out there for others interested in seeing how a residency will fit into a hybrid model job and to agree with Z and Karm.

WTF are you talking about...my job WAS 50:50 clinical...

I attended the occasional round (though definitely not as many as a person doing a residency...and now that I mention it...WVU made me do *4* internal medicine rotations, though...because they hate me...that might have helped me moreso than others prepare for a staff job...)...helped run codes when I was on clinical...in the ICU, no less...worked on the problem boards...did kinetics, coagulation monitoring and dosing...surprisingly comprehensive ID monitoring...mostly because the ID docs there were idiots...etc, etc.

...so...let me revise this.

You're saying that a person exclusively doing a 50:50 clinical:staff job isn't as prepared on his 366th day of doing the job as a person getting off of a one year residency that walks into the same hospital would be at doing the same job?

I don't know...you'll have to convince me better.

 

[Its Z]

You're saying that a person exclusively doing a 50:50 clinical:staff job isn't as prepared on his 366th day of doing the job as a person getting off of a one year residency that walks into the same hospital would be at doing the same job?

I don't know...you'll have to convince me better.

I wouldn't take a fresh grad and put him/her into a 50:50 clinical role unless they're trained properly. And how long that training will take can vary greatly.


And if I'm hiring a clinical/staff pharmacist, I know residency trained pharmacist has more to offer..because I may want them to write a monograph..present at P&T... train nurses... have students etc..

You may be able to do all that today but not every staff who's worked 1 year at a hospital can.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I did order entry for 12 years. C'mon dude..quit it with the elementary electrolyte examples...at least if you're going to talk about electrolytes, talk about Ca++ and need for albumin adjustment.. I'm talking about doing the APACHE II score for Xigris... then convincing the Intensivist why Xigris won't help.. Dosing Argatroban or Lepirudin.... talking to cardiologist why heparin loading dose for AMI should be 60 u/kg instead of 70 u/kg... knowing the iron store before Epo is dispensed.. why Timentin is necessary... or convince docs to use Continuous infusion Zosyn..

Meh...lame...you can look all that **** up...and honestly, a lot of that stuff has computer flags, anyway. I can still see the bright orange "corrected calcium" thing flash in my face.

I'll drop this off. Improvisation with a ****ing receptor affinity chart. That's good **** right, there...

So you're studious.. and motivated to learn. How much more would you have learned with a residency.

I'd like to know. Seriously. Because I'd then attempt to learn whatever it is. I couldn't do a residency if I wanted to, anyway. I ain't got the pedigree...nor family situation...

There's a lot more to pharmacy operation and practice than processing orders. Residents get exposure to activities a typical staff and student don't. Unless you can see the big picture, you will never be convinced of why residency is beneficial.

I can appreciate that...but I just don't don't see how most of it affects the staffer. The clinical and operations people are usually paid to streamline policy so that we don't have to think about it.

If there is something I'm not considering, give me an example.

If you think residency is nothing more than a ploy for cheap labor, you couldn't be more wrong.

I do think it is part of it. Especially for corporations like yours. Why would you want to hire new grads at full rate when they will be useless for 5-6 months? You could get them after a yearlong breaking in period. It makes a TON of sense to want to make residencies mandatory on your end.

 

[Its Z]

I can appreciate that...but I just don't don't see how most of it affects the staffer. The clinical and operations people are usually paid to streamline policy so that we don't have to think about it.

If there is something I'm not considering, give me an example.

MUE, NPSG compliance, SCIP, FMEA, Med Event Review/Analysis,
You just wait till I get back into being a DOP...every staff of mine will be involved with everything... those days of clocking in.. processing orders for 8 hours and going home are over.

I do think it is part of it. Especially for corporations like yours.

Our corporation does not have a residency. We have hospitals with residency but it has no effect on our corporation as hospital employee salary has nothing to do with us.

Why would you want to hire new grads at full rate when they will be useless for 5-6 months?

Not only useless....dangerous to patient care.

You could get them after a yearlong breaking in period. It makes a TON of sense to want to make residencies mandatory on your end.

Not my end... every hospital's end. That's why I say do a residency if working inpatient is your goal.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I wouldn't take a fresh grad and put him/her into a 50:50 clinical role unless they're trained properly. And how long that training will take can vary greatly.

You know...I do distinctly remember...I was sitting there in the ICU in December of 2008...attending a code for only the 3rd time...but the first time on a unit...mostly because it was just me...three pharmacists in their 50s past their prime that refused to go to them, even though it was policy that a pharmacist HAD to go to each code...both bosses at the midyear clinical meeting...so I was pretty much the only person willing to go...I'm up there answering questions about how to push various meds...I studied that ACLS ****, thank god... but I was thinking that same thing. Like...dude, I've only been doing this for 6 months...wtf am I doing in this unit? Is this normal?

My old boss was an idiot that whored out his pharmacists and enjoyed his annual "below par" labor cost bonus (1 pharmacist on 1st shift with a census of 170...really?)...so maybe you have a point...

......

I need to stop talking about this ****...it's making me really miss being in that hot seat... 🙁

I do know one thing....if I did a residency, I'd prolly be employed...

I am jealous of the job prospects of those with that piece of paper...no doubt about that...

 

[Its Z]

I know what you're capable of doing. But not every new grad can pick it up like you did.... especially if they never worked inpatient. It took me 6 months to learn to read orders as a pharmacist... and that's after 4 years of hospital internship... And it took about 2 years to feel comfortable about what I was doing as a hospital pharmacist.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Our corporation does not have a residency. We have hospitals with residency but it has no effect on our corporation as hospital employee salary has nothing to do with us.

You don't get what I'm saying...you guys make out the best because you DO NOT have residencies while others do. As residencies become manditory to practice in a hospitals...you guys will make out the best. No more breaking new grads in. Those offering residencies, obviously, will still have to deal with it...but that's why I say you guys must be so for them. It's all gravy...

Not only useless....dangerous to patient care.

Well...you have to train them...🙄

Not my end... every hospital's end. That's why I say do a residency if working inpatient is your goal.

Except for those offering residencies. They still do staffing in residencies and take ownership of what they do. It's not like the "newbie risk" is minimalized just because they are a resident vs staff. But it is minimalized for YOU as dealing with new grads will no longer be in your professional lexicon.

 

[Its Z]

Well, let me just say residents are pain in the ass... like new pharmacists... or anyone that has to be trained... it takes a lot of investment to train a new pharmacist. And when we dole out assignments to residents or pharmacists, it's really much easier for me to do it myself. But in an effort to train and mentor, we go through the motion. But we all have to contribute and hopefully it will enhance our profession.

 

[jinga]

Well, let me just say residents are pain in the ass... like new pharmacists... or anyone that has to be trained... it takes a lot of investment to train a new pharmacist. And when we dole out assignments to residents or pharmacists, it's really much easier for me to do it myself. But in an effort to train and mentor, we go through the motion. But we all have to contribute and hopefully it will enhance our profession.

2 people doing a job less efficiently than one experienced person doing the job = ~3 times less efficiency = lots and lots of time and money invested.

I've trained and been trained on many many jobs and it's very stressful and energy-intensive. My hospital internship has been the hardest job I've ever had to learn and it's always changing. If I'm working retail for a week and return something has changed.

This isn't really comparable to a residency but might be somewhat relevant to the discussion?

I promise I'm 100% sober this time, bros.

 

[StriveForGlory]

Im going to be a P2 next year and I am looking to do a residency to learn as much as I can about drugs and their uses in a clinical setting. Why cant the answer be as simple as that: I would actually like to know as much as possible and a residency seems like a good way to learn. I am not saying experience will not get you this kind of knowledge, but I have heard that a residency if oftentimes a lot more intense than school work and that intrigues me. Whats so bad about wanting to know the most and be the best? Im not planning on knowing more than anyone else in the hospital once I am done with the one or two years, but I do kind of expect to have more clinical drug knowledge than a person who spent the same amount of time staffing.

And people need to stop comparing residency grads to people with lots of experience. I work with a lot of experienced people at my job. They are fantasticly speedy and efficient with their order entry. But the fact of the matter is, no matter how quick they are, they still are not that knowledgable about drugs. Pharmacy school has gotten a lot more intense and specific over the last twenty years. And the learning definitely slows down when you get out of school. So maybe its not as easy to compare twenty years of staffing experience to two years of intense residency as some people think. Im speaking strictly about my hospital, but i know that if I were to do a two year residency I would definitely come out having more clinical knowledge than at least a third of the pharmacists that staff there currently. And that is not pointless.

 

[njac]

at what point does a clinical pharmacy resident get over the fact that the full extent of what they can do is just recommend something but NOT not make any real calls?

How is that different from just doing bi*tch work work for the MDs? Most of the times, the "clinical" pharmacist has to look it up in their fancy Apps anyways.

Someone educate me here...

But hey, someone will pay a clinical pharmacist 80K a year, so they must be worth something. So to each his own. Ya...I think residencies are pointless, other than help you get a job.

Here where I'm doing my PGY-2, certain services would crumple without their clinical pharmacists. Particularly transplant.

If anything, such extensive pharmacist involvement may be detrimental to physician training. But it creates job security for pharmacists in those specialties.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

If anything, such extensive pharmacist involvement may be detrimental to physician training. But it creates job security for pharmacists in those specialties.

I've seen this myself. At my old hospital, I will *never* forget the day when a new cardiologist called me to ask what Avapro was. Avapro! A cardiologist! Turns out...yup...just got done with a residency where the pharmacists took care of all of the pharmacotherapy.

Rather interesting...we are dumbing them all down to make ourselves a necessity. Brilliant!!!

 

[DrPepsi]

So if one of my interns asks me "Hey, I want to do home infusion when i graduate from pharmacy school. Should I apply to a residency?" I should answer yes?

You have to forgive me if I sound dumb asking that, I never did a residency.

 

[Its Z]

Here where I'm doing my PGY-2, certain services would crumple without their clinical pharmacists. Particularly transplant.

I slash and burn clipboard pharmacists who hide out in their office. But I leave transplant pharmacists alone..

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I slash and burn clipboard pharmacists who hide out in their office. But I leave transplant pharmacists alone..

You mean its not worth it to pay for them to play freecell for 3 hours a day?

 

[Its Z]

You mean its not worth it to pay for them to play freecell for 3 hours a day?

Actually unless they're paid by schools to teach students, typical "clinical clipboard pharmacist" provide very little return on investment.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Actually unless they're paid by schools to teach students, typical "clinical clipboard pharmacist" provide very little return on investment.

Now that I think about what it is they do...that doesn't surprise me.

 

[Pharmcdc]

I agree with both sides of this argument. I wanted to do an ambcare residency and was accepted for my first choice, however the hospital lost some of its funding and went from having two residents to one, I lost out. boohoo, get over it right? Said all of that to say that I see the benefit especially after having a solid organ transplant rotation at University hospital in SA and a surgical trauma/ICU rotation. In both situations the pharmacist were not merely making recommendations, but were vital to the team and GREATLY respected.

In my opinion the reason I agree with WVU is because residencies are NOT equal. They would have to be in order for either side to definitively win this argument. I know residents who staff every other weekend, and even staff at times at the end of their "resident" day. I have a very close friend who has told me many times that he is not much better after completing the residency except for the fact that he got to experience all aspects of pharmacy at his hospital instead of only staffing the inpatient, or outpatient for a year. What is he doing now? Inpatient staffing! Yes, you have to pick your residency wisely, and if you want to be a critical care pharmacist then you need a PGY-2, but WVU's argument was for a PGY-1. Make them ALL equal to GLycerin's and maybe we would have a winner for this argument, until then, its a wash. In my opinion anyway.

 

[TemSirolimus]

Here where I'm doing my PGY-2, certain services would crumple without their clinical pharmacists. Particularly transplant.

If anything, such extensive pharmacist involvement may be detrimental to physician training. But it creates job security for pharmacists in those specialties.

pharmacokinetics is purely our turf, no questions about that. Transplant, ID ( antibiotic dosing) and some neuro comes to mind. Pharmacist involvement is essential.

However, I feel that pharmacists are severely "clinically" restricted. By definition, pharmacists are not trained to look, poke or touch a patient much like an NP, PA or MD can. The patient assessment has do be done by someone else. As a result, the pharmacist ends up treating the subjective/ objective/ data or numbers gathered by others.

So, does the residents/ clinical pharmacists in here feel rather autonomous in their day's business? Do they feel tethered to other disciplines to do their work?

I just want a hospital staffing position, nothing more, period.

 

[aboveliquidice]

However, I feel that pharmacists are severely "clinically" restricted. By definition, pharmacists are not trained to look, poke or touch a patient much like an NP, PA or MD can. The patient assessment has do be done by someone else. As a result, the pharmacist ends up treating the subjective/ objective/ data or numbers gathered by others.

.

This highlights the widespread misconception of specialty residencies and "clinical" work... 🙁

 

[aboveliquidice]

I've seen this myself. At my old hospital, I will *never* forget the day when a new cardiologist called me to ask what Avapro was. Avapro! A cardiologist! Turns out...yup...just got done with a residency where the pharmacists took care of all of the pharmacotherapy.

Rather interesting...we are dumbing them all down to make ourselves a necessity. Brilliant!!!

We aren't dropping their IQs... On the average, most physicians are knowledgeable about the main drugs / classes. Irbe is certainly not the main ARB out there.

We are enablers - Drugs were a difficult / annoying subject to master for many physicians. Some excel at it, many don't. Damn good thing they have pharmacist running around like encyclopedias.

 

[spacecowgirl]

So, does the residents/ clinical pharmacists in here feel rather autonomous in their day's business? Do they feel tethered to other disciplines to do their work?

We are all "tethered" to each other in a collaborative environment, so...I'm not really sure how to answer that. 😕 I still have a great deal of autonomy for some things, but ultimately a lot falls back on the prescriber.