Residency App with Prior (x2) arrests

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
For Mr. S:

I'm going to take you at your word that you're honestly upset about this, and don't understand the rationale.

Although each board of medicine is independent and it's difficult to make any sweeping judgments regarding all of them, in general they will all ask questions about prior misdemeanors and felonies, and often also about any charges in general. They do this for several reasons:

1. Charges alone (without conviction) might represent a new offence that has not yet been litigated, an offence in the past that was "true" but couldn't be proven in a court of law and/or was plead down for expediency, or perhaps something that simply wasn't true at all. Boards have no interest in the latter, but perhaps lots of interest in the former. They would want to know if an applicant was charged with dealing drugs but then not convicted. Etc.

2. So why don't they make some rules about "you don't have to disclose speeding tickets" or something like that? Well, some boards do exactly that. But what you quickly discover is that it's very difficult to decide what's "important" to disclose, and what isn't. Let's stick with speeding, for example. What if you're caught doing 80 on an interstate with a limit of 65? What if you're doing 80 on the interstate and it's snowing like crazy? What if it's 80 in front of a hospital? What if it's happened multiple times? There's no good way to decide what should, or should not, be reported. So, they ask for everything. And then, they ignore anything minor.

I'm not sure what your major concern is. If you have a speeding ticket that's considered a misdemeanor in the state where you got it, you just disclose it and you'll get your license. No big deal. if you don't disclose it, then the lack of disclosure becomes the problem. No one would have cared. But now that you've lied about it, I worry you're hiding other things.

Some examples, from my board / program:

1. Resident gets a DUI. They went to dinner at a friend's house, had a couple glasses of wine. Drove home, ended up speeding down a hill and stopped. Asked if they had been drinking, answered yes to be honest was sure they were under the limit, blew over the limit. Came to me the next morning. "I done screwed up, is my career over?" is how our conversation started. Result: board was notified, recognized that we would have the resident under close supervision so did not impose any further requirements. Resident lost license for 6 months, was told needed to find a way to get to work on time every day. Did fine. Got job and license in another state (by choice). All good at last check.

2. Resident goes on vacation to another state, gets a DUI. Decides not to tell anyone, figures there's no way we would find out anyway. Of course, we end up finding out several months later. Result: Board revokes training license for not reporting in a timely manner. Fired immediately, because no license. Note that if reported in a timely manner, we would have had the same result as above.

3. Resident matches to our institution. After starting, while reviewing licensing paperwork, we discover that they list having attended two medical schools instead of one. ERAS application states only one medical school. Resident is questioned, says "oh yes, I went to med school A, failed out. I then went to Med School B and did fine. I assumed it didn't really matter since I graduated from medical school, which is what really matters". Result: it really matters. Terminated for fraud / incomplete application. We would have likely considered them, and matched, if they had been truthful in the first place.

This is the big leagues. You're a professional. Being a physician is a big job with lots of responsibility. Telling the truth is part of it.

Can this process run amok? Yes, it can. None of your examples come even close to real problems. But when boards have "concerns" about past psych issues and request private health records, or require psych assessments, or the whole concept of "disciplinary psychiatry" -- these can be problems and if we want to have a discussion about how to address or prevent these problems, I'm fine with that.

Of note, a common refrain in this type of question is "ask a lawyer". This is really not a good idea. First of all, if you ask 10 lawyers you're likely to get some to say disclose, and others to say not. How does that help? Plus lawyers look at questions like this as "what could I possibly defend in court?" As has been mentioned on this thread already, the best answer is to always disclose. That way, no one is taken by surprise, and you don't need to spend the next months / years worrying about it.

I appreciate your post above:
I think the boards are un necessarily invasive.
Umm, your post lost most of it's validity when you state "ask a lawyer" is realy not a good idea.
That to me is telling of your mindset and certainly "the boards" mindset. That is something they would say.
Happy New Year.

Members don't see this ad.
 
I appreciate your post above:
I think the boards are un necessarily invasive.
Umm, your post lost most of it's validity when you state "ask a lawyer" is realy not a good idea.
That to me is telling of your mindset and certainly "the boards" mindset. That is something they would say.
Happy New Year.

So tell me this. At what point do you think reality matches up with your expectations and when do you think reality is going to bend to your will?

I suspect you probably have some personal stake in this for some reason, so good luck with that
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
So tell me this. At what point do you think reality matches up with your expectations and when do you think reality is going to bend to your will?

I suspect you probably have some personal stake in this for some reason, so good luck with that
I am generally suspect of ANY organization with unchecked authority. In this case the state licensing boards have a long track record of abuse of authority. Moreover, theyhave immunity from all of their actions. I do not have any stake in any of this. I just call it like it is.
You may choose not to question anything.... but I sure do.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I appreciate your post above:
I think the boards are un necessarily invasive.
Umm, your post lost most of it's validity when you state "ask a lawyer" is realy not a good idea.
That to me is telling of your mindset and certainly "the boards" mindset. That is something they would say.
Happy New Year.

I don't think you should discard the validity of my post if you don't agree with one portion of it.

I'm surprised this is the part you find objectionable. My point was simply this: if you ask a lawyer what to do and follow their directions, and then discover that it's wrong, you're the one who is on the hook. "My lawyer said so" isn't a defense. Just like if you have an accountant do your taxes and they are incorrect, you are responsible.

I am generally suspect of ANY organization with unchecked authority. In this case the state licensing boards have a long track record of abuse of authority. Moreover, theyhave immunity from all of their actions. I do not have any stake in any of this. I just call it like it is.
You may choose not to question anything.... but I sure do.

Not sure what you mean by "long record of abuse". As mentioned above, I think that some boards exploring psych records of physicians looking for licensure are a huge problem, and I'd fully support some sort of reform in this regard. And boards certainly don't have immunity, many have been sued in the past. Individual members (who are often volunteers) usually have individual immuinty if they are acting in good faith -- but this is standard in this sort of situation.

Let me ask you this: how would you do this? Should there be licensing boards at all? Should there be any sort of background check on physicians? What do you think is fair game?
 
I don't think you should discard the validity of my post if you don't agree with one portion of it.

I'm surprised this is the part you find objectionable. My point was simply this: if you ask a lawyer what to do and follow their directions, and then discover that it's wrong, you're the one who is on the hook. "My lawyer said so" isn't a defense. Just like if you have an accountant do your taxes and they are incorrect, you are responsible.



Not sure what you mean by "long record of abuse". As mentioned above, I think that some boards exploring psych records of physicians looking for licensure are a huge problem, and I'd fully support some sort of reform in this regard. And boards certainly don't have immunity, many have been sued in the past. Individual members (who are often volunteers) usually have individual immuinty if they are acting in good faith -- but this is standard in this sort of situation.

Let me ask you this: how would you do this? Should there be licensing boards at all? Should there be any sort of background check on physicians? What do you think is fair game?
I do think there should be backround checks. Absolutely!! I am not condoning not looking into physicians past. That would be crazy. But asking questions that are NOT relevant is just a "witch hunt". "Have you ever received a failing grade on ANY examination?" THis question is NOT relevant. The relevance is that you passed the exams that count. There are other questions that are similarly worded and irrelevant that they ask all of the time.

Consulting a lawyer is ALWAYS a good idea.
Just like going to the doctor to check out that vague symptom is ALWAYS a good idea.

"long record of abuse": google is your friend..
 
Another Question the boards like to ask is

Are you in default on your federal loans? Or are you behind on your loans ?
Are you behind on your child support payments..
There should be a box that conveys, "None of your freakin business
How is any of that relevant to your fitness to practice?
 
Another Question the boards like to ask is

Are you in default on your federal loans? Or are you behind on your loans ?
Are you behind on your child support payments..
There should be a box that conveys, "None of your freakin business
How is any of that relevant to your fitness to practice?
My state asks none of those questions
 
Which state does this?

Cali does not: http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Forms/Applicants/application_us-canada.pdf

Texas does not: http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/idl/CCCC910D-2641-4DEE-D66C-0AADB5BBDF6E

Florida does not: https://flboardofmedicine.gov/apps/medical-doctor-app.pdf

Massachusetts does not: https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/12/28/full-license-kit.pdf

I list these 4 because they are often considered the most in depth. Feel free to post a link to a state that does this. There may be one out there, I'd like to see it.
 
Which state does this?

Cali does not: http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Forms/Applicants/application_us-canada.pdf

Texas does not: http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/idl/CCCC910D-2641-4DEE-D66C-0AADB5BBDF6E

Florida does not: https://flboardofmedicine.gov/apps/medical-doctor-app.pdf

Massachusetts does not: https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/12/28/full-license-kit.pdf

I list these 4 because they are often considered the most in depth. Feel free to post a link to a state that does this. There may be one out there, I'd like to see it.
MAryland does!!! and so does FLORIDA
and the only state board on there that is really invasive is Texas
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Another Question the boards like to ask is

Are you in default on your federal loans? Or are you behind on your loans ?
Are you behind on your child support payments..
There should be a box that conveys, "None of your freakin business
How is any of that relevant to your fitness to practice?


To me those are more relevant than remote marijuana use. When my friend was applying to the FBI, they asked me similar questions about what I knew regarding his financial state. I think the idea is that people in financial distress are at increased risk of doing shady things.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I think the idea is that people in financial distress are at increased risk of doing shady things.
Do you have evidence to support that?

If that is the case we should require financial disclosure on ALL applications.
 
Which state does this?

Cali does not: http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Forms/Applicants/application_us-canada.pdf

Texas does not: http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/idl/CCCC910D-2641-4DEE-D66C-0AADB5BBDF6E

Florida does not: https://flboardofmedicine.gov/apps/medical-doctor-app.pdf

Massachusetts does not: https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/12/28/full-license-kit.pdf

I list these 4 because they are often considered the most in depth. Feel free to post a link to a state that does this. There may be one out there, I'd like to see it.

Interesting.

California and Florida only ask about convictions, guilty pleas, and no contests, while Texas and Massachusetts ask about arrests.
 
Here
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot (10).png
    Screenshot (10).png
    223.8 KB · Views: 113
Hello,

I recently have gotten admitted to medical school (Both MD and DO) Class of 2023.

I wanted to know how two prior arrest for possession of Marijuana will affect my application. Dates and results as follows
October 2015- Possesion of Cannabis- Dismissed (Expunged)
April 2017- Possesion of Cabbabis- Dismised

I no longer smoke pot. See previous post if you want explanation.

Given the history and passage of time will I be able to match. Should I proceed with my medical education or is there too much risk/uncertainty to continue.

I want program directors opinions but I don’t know how to tag them here. Please assist.

Thank you for taking the time to help me!

All licensing paperwork I've ever filled out asked if I was ever CONVICTED of a crime. charged and convicted are 2 different things. You apparently have never been convicted of anything; therefore you answer "NO."

Don't offer that you were charged with a crime to anyone. At the least it would do absolutely nothing, at the most it could get your application thrown out. Good for you, you quit smoking weed. Move on and don't bring it up with anyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
MAryland does!!! and so does FLORIDA
and the only state board on there that is really invasive is Texas

Thanks for pointing that out. I missed the question on the FL application. You are correct it's on the Maryland app.

I agree with you that this question should not be there. I guess they use it as a measure of "character", but I think that's ridic. Unless there's some state law that requires them to ask, presumably to garnish pay to cover an unpaid debt. That's a whole different discussion, and would be out of the Board's control.

But I don't see this rising to the level of outrage you seem to have over it. But that's what makes us unique.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Do you have evidence to support that?

If that is the case we should require financial disclosure on ALL applications.
It is the premise behind asking about financial problems for security clearances
 
And let’s not forget that it’s fairly straightforward to get loans OUT of default too, so one could simply bring their obligations current prior to applying.

I’m not sure but I feel like I’ve read something before about being in default on a federal debt could render you ineligible to be a Medicare provider. If that’s the case it could certainly be of interest to the board what sort of practice you’re planning to have.

The Florida question in particular is interesting and I wonder how long it’s been there. That state has had serious problems in the opioid epidemic, especially with docs coming from out of state and opening cash only pain clinics/pill mills that tend to make a ton of money up until they’re raided by the feds and shut down.

I don’t know if being default would preclude licensure, but it may something that warrants some additional scrutiny and oversight. People who are willing to blow off one major obligation are more likely to blow off something else too. My evidence for this is collective life experience of literally every human being.
 
Thanks for pointing that out. I missed the question on the FL application. You are correct it's on the Maryland app.

I agree with you that this question should not be there. I guess they use it as a measure of "character", but I think that's ridic. Unless there's some state law that requires them to ask, presumably to garnish pay to cover an unpaid debt. That's a whole different discussion, and would be out of the Board's control.

But I don't see this rising to the level of outrage you seem to have over it. But that's what makes us unique.
Totally irrelevant question that is none of their business.
is the board a debt collector now?
The answer to the question should not even be taken into consideration.
Back to my original point. WHat if i answered NO to the question of whether i defaulted on a student loan? and they find out I did a year later. Is it reasonable to revoke me?
The State Medical Boards are TOtally out of control
 
I don’t know if being default would preclude licensure, but it may something that warrants some additional scrutiny and oversight. People who are willing to blow off one major obligation are more likely to blow off something else too. My evidence for this is collective life experience of literally every human being.
All your evidence is unsubstantiated. One can find plenty of people who have defaulted who do just fine in life. Moreover, there are plenty of Loan companies who have been indicted by department of justice etc etc. They are not saints. Why should we be?
Student Loan Collector Cheated Millions, Lawsuits Say
 
Totally irrelevant question that is none of their business.
is the board a debt collector now?
The answer to the question should not even be taken into consideration.
Back to my original point. WHat if i answered NO to the question of whether i defaulted on a student loan? and they find out I did a year later. Is it reasonable to revoke me?
The State Medical Boards are TOtally out of control

Yes because you lied.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
All your evidence is unsubstantiated. One can find plenty of people who have defaulted who do just fine in life. Moreover, there are plenty of Loan companies who have been indicted by department of justice etc etc. They are not saints. Why should we be?
Student Loan Collector Cheated Millions, Lawsuits Say

I feel like if you were currently in default and then opened up a cash only pill mill in my state, I’d want you to face some additional scrutiny.

You’re extrapolating far beyond the scope of what’s being said. I feel strange saying to another alleged adult that loan collection agencies breaking the law does not absolve you or anyone else of your own obligations, but here we are.

My evidence is actually very well substantiated. It’s a very very small fraction of physicians who end up having most of the problems whether it be malpractice suits, licensure issues, etc. The studies have also shown that these are the same docs who have professionalism problems as students and residents. I don’t think the studies looked specifically at financial history but other studies in the HR literature have shown very powerful correlations between how people handle their own personal finances and ultimately how they handle their financial and other responsibilities in the workplace.

I don’t think we need multiple RCTs to tell us what the data and overwhelming life experience already do: past behavior is highly predictive of future behavior. Period.

Can people change? Yes. Do they? Rarely.
 
I feel like if you were currently in default and then opened up a cash only pill mill in my state, I’d want you to face some additional scrutiny.

You’re extrapolating far beyond the scope of what’s being said. I feel strange saying to another alleged adult that loan collection agencies breaking the law does not absolve you or anyone else of your own obligations, but here we are.

My evidence is actually very well substantiated. It’s a very very small fraction of physicians who end up having most of the problems whether it be malpractice suits, licensure issues, etc. The studies have also shown that these are the same docs who have professionalism problems as students and residents. I don’t think the studies looked specifically at financial history but other studies in the HR literature have shown very powerful correlations between how people handle their own personal finances and ultimately how they handle their financial and other responsibilities in the workplace.

I don’t think we need multiple RCTs to tell us what the data and overwhelming life experience already do: past behavior is highly predictive of future behavior. Period.

Can people change? Yes. Do they? Rarely.
Please show me the study that shows that being in default in student loan leads to medical negligence issues. Please show me studies about doctors who have been involved in pill mills and their student loan status?

If you were right and the board's intent was to weed out physicians who have financial problems because it is a harbinger for professional problems then "ALL" debt would be relevant. The question would be worded, DO you have ANY outstanding debt 30 days past due? 60 days? 90 days? Have you ever missed a credit card payment? What is your credit score? etc etc etc.

Physicians are humans and are not perfect. You can miss a car payment but still perform your duties to patients properly.
 
I don't understand why this thread is still going. Just answer the goddamn question and move the **** on. Yeah it may not be relevant but if you feel that strongly about the question than move to a different state. We live in a community and thereby subject to rules that govern everyone. There will be times where we feel the rules don't/shouldn't apply to us but that's just too bad. I don't like to do the stupid MOC payments or tests but I don't have a choice. Jesus, just give it a rest already.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Please show me the study that shows that being in default in student loan leads to medical negligence issues. Please show me studies about doctors who have been involved in pill mills and their student loan status?

If you were right and the board's intent was to weed out physicians who have financial problems because it is a harbinger for professional problems then "ALL" debt would be relevant. The question would be worded, DO you have ANY outstanding debt 30 days past due? 60 days? 90 days? Have you ever missed a credit card payment? What is your credit score? etc etc etc.

Physicians are humans and are not perfect. You can miss a car payment but still perform your duties to patients properly.

Do you really not see the difference between default on a federal loan and being 90 days past due on a revolving account of some kind?

To default on a federal loan you have to willfully blow off efforts to contact you for at least six months if not more. They even call your parents and your friends you listed on the loan application. And all it takes to prevent default is to make one phone call and get a forbearance or make some other arrangements if you’re having a hardship. So yes, to default on a loan takes a special level of willful disregard.

And obviously getting out of default is also incredibly easy. It can be done almost instantly with a consolidation loan and starting an income based plan OR you can rehabilitate the loan by making payments again and they even wipe it off your credit report!

So for a physician to be applying for licensure and be currently in default despite all of that definitely says something concerning about their character and level of responsibility. I would not want them to be my own physician under any circumstances.

As for the studies I think my previous answer was quite clear and written in plain English. You’ve extrapolated something beyond it that is too ridiculous to warrant a reply, so I will redirect you to my previous comment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Do you really not see the difference between default on a federal loan and being 90 days past due on a revolving account of some kind?
.
Bad example I used. How about this question, "Have you ever had a credit card company write off any of your debt for failure to make payments for a year or more"

Have you ever borrowed money from anyone (this includes friends, enemies, co-workers, ex gf, ex-bf) and did not pay it back for a year or more.

Another question. What is worse morally? Obtaining a DWI and being convicted at twice the legal limit or defaulting on student loan and lieing about it on the addendum questions?


Look we disagree. You clearly hate questioning the establishment's motives. I relish it.
 
I hesitate to jump into this discussion because I am not a physician. However, I am a licensed professional and in my state, default of state guaranteed student loans or delinquency in child support payments will result in the suspension of a current license or the refusal to issue a license until the issue is resolved. That is the law for every professional license (P.E., plumber, P.G., electrician, etc...) so I assume that it also applies to medical licenses. So it isn't the board that is setting the rule, it is the state legislature. And yes, they do have the right to determine who gets a license to perform a service in their state.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
What is worse morally? Obtaining a DWI and being convicted at twice the legal limit or defaulting on student loan and lieing about it on the addendum questions?

DWI. But you'll report that to the Board, and it's certain to impact your license. You'll likely be put into a monitoring program.

I hesitate to jump into this discussion because I am not a physician. However, I am a licensed professional and in my state, default of state guaranteed student loans or delinquency in child support payments will result in the suspension of a current license or the refusal to issue a license until the issue is resolved. That is the law for every professional license (P.E., plumber, P.G., electrician, etc...) so I assume that it also applies to medical licenses. So it isn't the board that is setting the rule, it is the state legislature. And yes, they do have the right to determine who gets a license to perform a service in their state.

You just beat me to the punch. For Florida, it's not the Board that's the problem. It's the law. From statute (in the section about why your license might not be granted or revoked):

Failing to perform any statutory or legal obligation placed upon a licensee. For purposes of this section, failing to repay a student loan issued or guaranteed by the state or the Federal Government in accordance with the terms of the loan or failing to comply with service scholarship obligations shall be considered a failure to perform a statutory or legal obligation, and the minimum disciplinary action imposed shall be a suspension of the license until new payment terms are agreed upon or the scholarship obligation is resumed, followed by probation for the duration of the student loan or remaining scholarship obligation period, and a fine equal to 10 percent of the defaulted loan amount. Fines collected shall be deposited into the Medical Quality Assurance Trust Fund.

The board is legally required to ask, by law. Perhaps the law is dumb and should be changed. In fact, one could argue that if you owe money, and then can't get a license, then you can't make any money to actually pay back the loan. But if you look carefully at the law, you'll see that being in default on your loans doesn't mean you don't get a license -- it just means you need to come up with a payment plan which might start after you get your license and start getting paid.
 
DWI. But you'll report that to the Board, and it's certain to impact your license. You'll likely be put into a monitoring program.



You just beat me to the punch. For Florida, it's not the Board that's the problem. It's the law. From statute (in the section about why your license might not be granted or revoked):

Failing to perform any statutory or legal obligation placed upon a licensee. For purposes of this section, failing to repay a student loan issued or guaranteed by the state or the Federal Government in accordance with the terms of the loan or failing to comply with service scholarship obligations shall be considered a failure to perform a statutory or legal obligation, and the minimum disciplinary action imposed shall be a suspension of the license until new payment terms are agreed upon or the scholarship obligation is resumed, followed by probation for the duration of the student loan or remaining scholarship obligation period, and a fine equal to 10 percent of the defaulted loan amount. Fines collected shall be deposited into the Medical Quality Assurance Trust Fund.

The board is legally required to ask, by law. Perhaps the law is dumb and should be changed. In fact, one could argue that if you owe money, and then can't get a license, then you can't make any money to actually pay back the loan. But if you look carefully at the law, you'll see that being in default on your loans doesn't mean you don't get a license -- it just means you need to come up with a payment plan which might start after you get your license and start getting paid.
so you are in support of states inquiring about federal debt? Earlier in the thread you were against it.

It should not be in there. It is NOT material to your fitness as a physician. That is what the board should care about period. This is simply GOTCHA!
 
My personal feelings?

If there's no law about it, and the board is asking as a matter of character, then I'm 100% against it.

If there is a law about it, I don't see that my personal feelings matter at all. The speed limit is 65 on most of the highways where I live. I might want it to be higher. I might actually drive faster. But if I do so I'm speeding, and if caught I'll pay a fine. If I'm that angry about it, I should lobby the appropriate govt agency to change the law.

What are my personal feelings about the law? My prior post was based on the character issue. Now that I see the question is regarding payment of loans for your education or service requirements that were unfulfilled, and presumably as a physician you should be able to afford to repay those debts or live up to your obligations, I don't have a huge problem with it. This assumes that the board doesn't just flat out deny a license if you indicate that you are in default on your loans, which would be illegal if you have agreed to a repayment plan. If it was up to me, I'd just have the state garnish wages and leave the licensing out of it, but that leaves problems for physicians who are in private practice and don't have wages to garnish. So, all in all, I'm good with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
DWI. But you'll report that to the Board, and it's certain to impact your license. You'll likely be put into a monitoring program.

Curious. Does a DUI/DWAI from college really impact licensing? I doubt they would put you in a monitoring program for something that happened 5+ years ago
 
Curious. Does a DUI/DWAI from college really impact licensing? I doubt they would put you in a monitoring program for something that happened 5+ years ago
You can doubt all you want but they will and they do!

If you have gotten a DWI it is not inconceivable that the board ask for records of sobriety, treatment that you have completed letters from addictionologist(s), etc etc etc. And if they are not happy with that they can flat out deny your license or put you on probation. Real thing baby.
 
My personal feelings?

If there's no law about it, and the board is asking as a matter of character, then I'm 100% against it.

If there is a law about it, I don't see that my personal feelings matter at all. The speed limit is 65 on most of the highways where I live. I might want it to be higher. I might actually drive faster. But if I do so I'm speeding, and if caught I'll pay a fine. If I'm that angry about it, I should lobby the appropriate govt agency to change the law.

What are my personal feelings about the law? My prior post was based on the character issue. Now that I see the question is regarding payment of loans for your education or service requirements that were unfulfilled, and presumably as a physician you should be able to afford to repay those debts or live up to your obligations, I don't have a huge problem with it. This assumes that the board doesn't just flat out deny a license if you indicate that you are in default on your loans, which would be illegal if you have agreed to a repayment plan. If it was up to me, I'd just have the state garnish wages and leave the licensing out of it, but that leaves problems for physicians who are in private practice and don't have wages to garnish. So, all in all, I'm good with it.
All the questions can be answered by two simple questions
1) are you in the NPDB.. if youre not what further questions can the board have further
2) submit your fingerprints and we will do a backround check on you and if you come back clean what further questions should the board have.

Is it a crime to not pay back your student loans? If yes they the person to jail if not lets move on to licensure.

The board has "mission creep".
 
You can doubt all you want but they will and they do!

If you have gotten a DWI it is not inconceivable that the board ask for records of sobriety, treatment that you have completed letters from addictionologist(s), etc etc etc. And if they are not happy with that they can flat out deny your license or put you on probation. Real thing baby.

1) dont call me baby lol

2) I guarantee you no one has gotten their license denied because of a remote DUI that was an isolated incident with no other criminal history lol. Plenty of people that got a DUI got one because they had an extra glass of wine, not because they're alcoholics that require treatment and clearance from an "addictionologist." LOL. In fact, program director above shared an example of someone that got a DUI DURING RESIDENCY and the board didn't require sobriety monitoring of them or records of sobriety yada yada lol. Yet you think that someone with a DUI before they even went to med school would need "addictionologist" clearance and even maybe be denied.

I can see what you say happening for someone with a track record of substance abuse or criminal behavior, but from what my buddy who actually went through this said, a remote DWAI did not hurt him. His program knew about it and he got a training license with no issue and is now applying for a full license with no issue. No words of sobriety monitoring lol.
 
1) dont call me baby lol

2) I guarantee you no one has gotten their license denied because of a remote DUI that was an isolated incident with no other criminal history lol. Plenty of people that got a DUI got one because they had an extra glass of wine, not because they're alcoholics that require treatment and clearance from an "addictionologist." LOL. In fact, program director above shared an example of someone that got a DUI DURING RESIDENCY and the board didn't require sobriety monitoring of them or records of sobriety yada yada lol. Yet you think that someone with a DUI before they even went to med school would need "addictionologist" clearance and even maybe be denied.

I can see what you say happening for someone with a track record of substance abuse or criminal behavior, but from what my buddy who actually went through this said, a remote DWAI did not hurt him. His program knew about it and he got a training license with no issue and is now applying for a full license with no issue. No words of sobriety monitoring lol.
You can choose to stick your head in the sand further.. That is fine with me.
I am telling you the truth.

If you think the State Licensing Boards are going to not ask questions about your DWI, you are kidding yourself.

Those questions will be: 1) we need proof you are not a drunk.
2) we need proof that you completed a treatment program
3) we need letters from your addictionologist.

Im not saying all boards will go off the deep end, but most will.
If you dont like it they WILL deny your license.
 
You can choose to stick your head in the sand further.. That is fine with me.
I am telling you the truth.

If you think the State Licensing Boards are going to not ask questions about your DWI, you are kidding yourself.

Those questions will be: 1) we need proof you are not a drunk.
2) we need proof that you completed a treatment program
3) we need letters from your addictionologist.

Im not saying all boards will go off the deep end, but most will.
If you dont like it they WILL deny your license.

1) I dont have a DWI lol
2) I think you should refrain from making matter of fact statements like you are an expert on the topic. I'm sure some states are tougher than others, but if its a remote incident, I'm sure the fact that there are no other incidences and the fact that you completed whatever the court sanctioned (usually some generic DUI treatment), is enough evidence that you are not a drunk. No one gets a letter from an "addictionologist." There are physicians practicing with felony convictions lol. Again, a isolated remote DUI has likely never cost a physician their license to be denied.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
All the questions can be answered by two simple questions
1) are you in the NPDB.. if youre not what further questions can the board have further
2) submit your fingerprints and we will do a backround check on you and if you come back clean what further questions should the board have.

Is it a crime to not pay back your student loans? If yes they the person to jail if not lets move on to licensure.

The board has "mission creep".

No, it's not that simple. Many of the things asked on license applications are not reportable to the NPDB. Getting your privileges revoked by a hospital. Getting put on probation by a residency program (this can be state specific). Professionalism problems at prior workplaces. Etc. The only things that got the NPDB are medmal judgments, and actions against licenses.

Also, there is a significant delay from when something "happens" to when it ends up in the NPDB. One purpose for these questions is to prevent someone in one state who is in the process of having their license revokes switching to another state before there's a problem on their record.

As mentioned in FL the LAW (not written by the board, but written by the legislature) says that if you fail to pay back your loans, you MIGHT not get a license. So, the board has to ask about it. The board has no choice about this, and complaining that they are "overreaching" or "mission creep" is not correct. This is one of those issues that is in equipoise for me - I can support either side. If you feel strongly that not paying back your loans or otherwise living up to your agreements for your training shouldn't be part of licensing, that's fine. But don't complain about the board. Change the law.

You can choose to stick your head in the sand further.. That is fine with me.
I am telling you the truth.

If you think the State Licensing Boards are going to not ask questions about your DWI, you are kidding yourself.

Those questions will be: 1) we need proof you are not a drunk.
2) we need proof that you completed a treatment program
3) we need letters from your addictionologist.

Im not saying all boards will go off the deep end, but most will.
If you dont like it they WILL deny your license.

Some states might. Likely the timing will matter -- something in the distant past is unlikely to be of concern. Your statement that "Most will go off the deep end" is simply incorrect in my real world experience. Exactly what are you basing your "most" on? There are 50 states (plus DC, and PR, and some states have separate MD and DO boards). Conservatively, "most" would mean that 26 states would "go off the deep end". Please tell us what 26 states these are, or point to a study that would answer this question.
 
2) I think you should refrain from making matter of fact statements like you are an expert on the topic. There are physicians practicing with felony convictions lol. Again, a isolated remote DUI has likely never cost a physician their license to be denied.
I am not a lawyer nor an expert but i am more of an expert than you. If you get a DWI you will have a lot of splainin' to do. Two reasons why. 1) it is NOT a crime of moral turpitude BUT they can call you judgement into question and 2) the substance abuse issue. Nobody wants a "drunk" doctor.

And which felonies are ok to have committed and its ok to work as a physician? Murder? Manslaughter? Rape? facilitating a prostitution ring?
 
No, it's not that simple. Many of the things asked on license applications are not reportable to the NPDB. Getting your privileges revoked by a hospital. Getting put on probation by a residency program (this can be state specific). Professionalism problems at prior workplaces. Etc. The only things that got the NPDB are medmal judgments, and actions against licenses.

Also, there is a significant delay from when something "happens" to when it ends up in the NPDB. One purpose for these questions is to prevent someone in one state who is in the process of having their license revokes switching to another state before there's a problem on their record.



Some states might. Likely the timing will matter -- something in the distant past is unlikely to be of concern. Your statement that "Most will go off the deep end" is simply incorrect in my real world experience. Exactly what are you basing your "most" on? There are 50 states (plus DC, and PR, and some states have separate MD and DO boards). Conservatively, "most" would mean that 26 states would "go off the deep end". Please tell us what 26 states these are, or point to a study that would answer this question.


Getting your privieges revoked will ABSOLUTELY be reported to the NPDB without a doubt. And so will a suspension greater than 30 days. FOR SURE!

My point is: If its not reportable to the NPDB why the F are you asking me?
  1. Who cares if you were on probation by a residency? Did you finish and graduate and get a dipploma? If the answer is YES lets move on. THe State bd wants to police everything and thats BS. Most professional problems at workplace are multifactorial and usually has little to do with the clinician. Nurse x called DR Y and it took him too long to respond to his page. HE responded to the question asked of him by the nurse in a derogatory, " Why are you calling me? You should call Dr. C who is on call. Ill give you a verbal order for this this time, but dont call me again. Call Dr C, who is on call? and if this continues I will report you to the HEAD nurse." or. Why wasnt my tray set up properly? I went over this with the last nurse 5x already. Why do i have problems every time? (those are the professional problems). I do not want to hear about em. LETS MOve on..


I dont want to hear about them. Was the police called? If no, lets move on.
 
My personal feelings?

If there's no law about it, and the board is asking as a matter of character, then I'm 100% against it.

If there is a law about it, I don't see that my personal feelings matter at all. The speed limit is 65 on most of the highways where I live. I might want it to be higher. I might actually drive faster. But if I do so I'm speeding, and if caught I'll pay a fine. If I'm that angry about it, I should lobby the appropriate govt agency to change the law.

What are my personal feelings about the law? My prior post was based on the character issue. Now that I see the question is regarding payment of loans for your education or service requirements that were unfulfilled, and presumably as a physician you should be able to afford to repay those debts or live up to your obligations, I don't have a huge problem with it. This assumes that the board doesn't just flat out deny a license if you indicate that you are in default on your loans, which would be illegal if you have agreed to a repayment plan. If it was up to me, I'd just have the state garnish wages and leave the licensing out of it, but that leaves problems for physicians who are in private practice and don't have wages to garnish. So, all in all, I'm good with it.

Why are you on the State Medical Boards side? Have you not read "stories" of their capriciousness and over-reach?
 
Why are you on the State Medical Boards side? Have you not read "stories" of their capriciousness and over-reach?
Because my state doesn't?

I googled "[my state] medical board overreach" and got nothing.

I make it a point to read every disciplinary case that goes before the board. In over 200 cases I have yet to think "man that doctor was treated unfairly". As I don't care what other medical boards do, my thoughts on this subject are specific to my state.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Because my state doesn't?

I googled "[my state] medical board overreach" and got nothing.

I make it a point to read every disciplinary case that goes before the board. In over 200 cases I have yet to think "man that doctor was treated unfairly". As I don't care what other medical boards do, my thoughts on this subject are specific to my state.
So what you are saying is, " If its not happening to me, then it is not happening!"
http://www.jpands.org/vol16no3/schlafly.pdf
The Role of State Medical Boards
I like the way these two clowns from the FSMB define unprofessional conduct as
failure to meet CME requirements
Felony conviction
physical abuse of patient
dishonesty..
oh yea as if all those above are the same..

CLOWNS!!
 
Top