Resident Hazard Pay?

[Mass Effect]

So I got curious from this thread and texted a faculty member at one of the particularly hard hit hospitals I know of (non-NYC) that has been giving COVID hazard pay to the nursing staff. He told me that residents aren't getting any, but he also told me something I hadn't thought much about. Residents have been getting pulled to COVID services, but even with the hospital full, productivity is likely down significantly for their residents as a whole. Only a portion of a hospital's residents cover inpatient services at any time and outpatient care is now wiped out, so now we're in a situation where there's a huge chunk of their residents with no real work to do and it's getting worse as their hospitalization numbers have started to decline this week. They've got a bunch of residents doing unplanned research electives now.

I hadn't thought about that aspect of things much (inexcusable on my part since the resident clinic on my floor hasn't been run in a month), but it does emphasize something I've believed for a long time, even back when I was in training: Resident compensation being tied to productivity, especially RVUs or billing, is a Pandora's box that you DO. NOT. want to open.

Not sure of the point, but that has nothing to do with hazard pay.

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[<L>]

Not sure of the point, but that has nothing to do with hazard pay.

The point is that as residents your incomes are protected until you complete your program. Those nurses won't have that luxury. ER numbers in my area have dropped like a rock after exploding at this time last month. Those nurses who got a little token cash are likely to see their shifts cut in the near future if things stay down, which looks extremely likely.

 

[Mass Effect]

The point is that as residents your incomes are protected until you complete your program. Those nurses won't have that luxury. ER numbers in my area have dropped like a rock after exploding at this time last month. Those nurses who got a little token cash are likely to see their shifts cut in the near future if things stay down, which looks extremely likely.

Again, has nothing to do with hazard pay.

 

[Eyeronic]

Not sure if related, but just wanted to comment that I am seeing quite a few on social media take the "hazard pay" and/or other alternatives for extra compensation argument one step further with viral posts about how all medical school debt should be forgiven. There is literally no better way to lose any argument on hazard pay than to make it hyperbolic and play that card.

1.) It won't happen.
2.) There's less money now than ever.
3.) Many people vow to pay off their medical education debt ASAP, making large payments during residency and fellowship and forgoing nice things and major life upgrades simply to not let interest accumulate on money that wasn't theirs in the first place. If you even entertain the idea of medical school debt forgiveness, what do you tell all the people that sacrificed to efficiently pay their debt off and have nothing left to repay? So they get nothing? Argument dead.
4.) It won't happen.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The bolded is my point. It isn't irrelevant to me. They're working overtime due to the pandemic, the same reason that residents are working more than they usually do.

I think your complaint is more about overtime than hazard pay in this case. Nurses are paid by their hours/shifts. If nurses work more shifts, they get paid more (and then paid at a higher rate for overtime). Residents are salaried, so they get paid the same regardless of how many hours they work. There are risks and benefits to both. Obviously, getting paid more for working more is a huge benefit. But if shifts are cut, nurses get paid less. And sometimes shift rates are different. If residents were paid this way, I could imagine that when a resident was on an elective, they might get paid less for that time than somewhere else.

Not sure of the point, but that has nothing to do with hazard pay.

I kinda does. What if I offer to pay hazard pay while residents are working on the wards, but then cut your pay in half when you're home doing nothing because there is nothing to do?

 

[<L>]

I was talking about ridicule by NYU leadership, not here.

If anyone is getting hazard pay, then residents should be getting hazard pay.

Let's reflect on what actually happened in this twitter thread:
1) NYU residents requested hazard pay
2) NYU leadership, rather than being empathetical and saying something along the lines of "we respect the difficult positions you are in, but the entire system is taking paycuts, and we just don't have the ability to pay you guys anything extra, etc. etc." acted, behind closed doors, in a condescending manner, and told residents that they were being greedy and unprofessional (there's that word again). Certain aspects of the hospital leadership wanted to find out which of his trainees had responded to an anonymous survey in a certain matter (assuredly for retaliation). Residents were subtly threatened with "well if you don't like it then maybe you don't have to work here"
3) A good resident who is on her way out the door to a good fellowship didn't stand for this level of crap and posted about it on twitter.

It's one thing if the residents asked for hazard pay and were told no. The fact is that their own hospital's leadership (who cares about SDN members ridiculing them) ridiculed their own residents and acted in a condescending manner to them. Yeah, I'd be pissed too.

Sorry, but aside from the one email stating "the more mature residents may understand" is there something else I'm missing re:the bolded on both your posts?

 

[46Long]

Not sure if related, but just wanted to comment that I am seeing quite a few on social media take the "hazard pay" and/or other alternatives for extra compensation argument one step further with viral posts about how all medical school debt should be forgiven. There is literally no better way to lose any argument on hazard pay than to make it hyperbolic and play that card.

1.) It won't happen.
2.) There's less money now than ever.
3.) Many people vow to pay off their medical education debt ASAP, making large payments during residency and fellowship and forgoing nice things and major life upgrades simply to not let interest accumulate on money that wasn't theirs in the first place. If you even entertain the idea of medical school debt forgiveness, what do you tell all the people that sacrificed to efficiently pay their debt off and have nothing left to repay? So they get nothing? Argument dead.
4.) It won't happen.

First of all, the interest rate right now on ALL student loans is ZERO. So residents need not make payments now until at least Sept. The issue with loan forgiveness has nothing to do with whether it is right or not or whether or not it sends the right message. That is not even a consideration. Come Sept, the talking points will be whether or not student loan forgiveness will do ANYTHING to encourage the economy. If the answer is yes, then it will be considered. My guess is at some point before the election there will be some sort of loan forgiveness as Trump will want that in his favor because the race is getting close.

 

[<L>]

First of all, the interest rate right now on ALL student loans is ZERO. So residents need not make payments now until at least Sept. The issue with loan forgiveness has nothing to do with whether it is right or not or whether or not it sends the right message. That is not even a consideration. Come Sept, the talking points will be whether or not student loan forgiveness will do ANYTHING to encourage the economy. If the answer is yes, then it will be considered. My guess is at some point before the election there will be some sort of loan forgiveness as Trump will want that in his favor because the race is getting close.

Angry resident I mentioned upthread was posting about how this pandemic means all MDs should have their loans forgiven too, unsurprisingly.

I make a quarter million dollars a year. If you want taxpayers to add an instant ~170k to my net worth, by all means, I'm not stopping you. (Angry resident also probably makes more than me given her extra training)

Also seeing posts by the same people to make the n'th attempt at arguing that doctors deserve PSLF.

 

[Mass Effect]

I think your complaint is more about overtime than hazard pay in this case. Nurses are paid by their hours/shifts. If nurses work more shifts, they get paid more (and then paid at a higher rate for overtime). Residents are salaried, so they get paid the same regardless of how many hours they work. There are risks and benefits to both. Obviously, getting paid more for working more is a huge benefit. But if shifts are cut, nurses get paid less. And sometimes shift rates are different. If residents were paid this way, I could imagine that when a resident was on an elective, they might get paid less for that time than somewhere else

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying the nurses are getting more than their USUAL overtime pay. So if they get, say, $35/hr overtime, they're now getting $50/hr for overtime. You can label it anything, but when nurses are getting paid more than they were for the very specific work they're doing now, I call that equivalent to hazard pay.

 

[RangerBob]

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying the nurses are getting more than their USUAL overtime pay. So if they get, say, $35/hr overtime, they're now getting $50/hr for overtime. You can label it anything, but when nurses are getting paid more than they were for the very specific work they're doing now, I call that equivalent to hazard pay.

Nurses have better organized leadership/lobbying. Let's be happy for them (and a bit jealous).

As other pointed out, most residents are fortunate in that they're still drawing their normal salaries, compared to hourly workers (most of whom are seeing their hours cut). The few residents on ICU/inpatient rotations are possibly working harder, but many of those services actually have fewer patients than normal. Inpatient volumes are down in most hospitals, even EDs. Most rotations are being cancelled or scaled down. Residents are doing home research. Only a few are working more than usual, and it's likely just for a month or two. Sure, I'd be happy to see them get hazard pay (I'd be happier to see housekeeping get hazard pay), but I think overall they're better off with not seeing their pay cut due to other rotations being scaled back.

 

[46Long]

Nurses have better organized leadership/lobbying. Let's be happy for them (and a bit jealous).

As other pointed out, most residents are fortunate in that they're still drawing their normal salaries, compared to hourly workers (most of whom are seeing their hours cut). The few residents on ICU/inpatient rotations are possibly working harder, but many of those services actually have fewer patients than normal. Inpatient volumes are down in most hospitals, even EDs. Most rotations are being cancelled or scaled down. Residents are doing home research. Only a few are working more than usual, and it's likely just for a month or two. Sure, I'd be happy to see them get hazard pay (I'd be happier to see housekeeping get hazard pay), but I think overall they're better off with not seeing their pay cut due to other rotations being scaled back.

I get your point but do you see where the indignation comes from? You said it volumes are down at most hospitals, but bedisde nurses are suddenly getting 50 bucks an hour.. Midlevels from other states are making 15k per week.. Where is this money coming from?

 

[Mass Effect]

Nurses have better organized leadership/lobbying. Let's be happy for them (and a bit jealous).

As other pointed out, most residents are fortunate in that they're still drawing their normal salaries, compared to hourly workers (most of whom are seeing their hours cut). The few residents on ICU/inpatient rotations are possibly working harder, but many of those services actually have fewer patients than normal. Inpatient volumes are down in most hospitals, even EDs. Most rotations are being cancelled or scaled down. Residents are doing home research. Only a few are working more than usual, and it's likely just for a month or two. Sure, I'd be happy to see them get hazard pay (I'd be happier to see housekeeping get hazard pay), but I think overall they're better off with not seeing their pay cut due to other rotations being scaled back.

Nope, I see it completely differently. Residents are not fortunate to be drawing their normal salaries. The hospital is damn lucky such a thing called residency exists where you can order these folks to the front lines, risking their lives and the lives of their loved ones, and they're in no position to negotiate.

 

[RangerBob]

I get your point but do you see where the indignation comes from? You said it volumes are down at most hospitals, but bedisde nurses are suddenly getting 50 bucks an hour.. Midlevels from other states are making 15k per week.. Where is this money coming from?

The nurses not getting called off and who are working in very close personal proximity to COVID patients are possibly making more. A lot of that stuff is written into those union contracts. But most RNs are seeing a cut in hours. Lots of outpatient/OR nurses aren't working at all.

Midlevels are getting paid 15k/week? Are they locums? That's $60k/month pre-tax.

The money is probably coming from increased borrowing. Most hospitals are deep in the red. Our hospital is hemorrhaging money right now. If the hospital goes under, we're all out of jobs.

I'm not saying no one deserves hazard pay. I'd love to see all of us make more money, but there's really not enough money in the pot to even continue to pay the people who are still working. Lots of staff have been laid off or had hours reduced. Most admins have taken hefty paycuts.

Nope, I see it completely differently. Residents are not fortunate to be drawing their normal salaries. The hospital is damn lucky such a thing called residency exists where you can order these folks to the front lines, risking their lives and the lives of their loved ones, and they're in no position to negotiate.

The soldiers in Iraq wanted more armor. They put their lives in even more danger than we are in, and had even less control over their employment situation than residents. Despite having the resources and determination, it still took us a long time to get them what they needed.

Sometimes our situations just plain suck, and we just have to do the best we can. The docs (and all other essential workers) working during the Blitz deserved hazard pay. But when things get that crappy, sometimes we just have to stop and think, be thankful that we're alive, that we're still able to support our family, and that we're also able to support our fellow humans during such dark times.

 

[Mass Effect]

I'm not saying no one deserves hazard pay. I'd love to see all of us make more money

All of us don't deserve more money. I certainly don't. I'm sitting at home doing remote work. The residents on the front lines deserve hazard pay. They have no choice in what they're doing and they're literally putting their lives on the line.

The soldiers in Iraq wanted more armor. They put their lives in even more danger than we are in, and had even less control over their employment situation than residents. Despite having the resources and determination, it still took us a long time to get them what they needed

You cannot compare the military to being a doctor. Not even remotely the same thing.

Sometimes our situations just plain suck, and we just have to do the best we can. The docs (and all other essential workers) working during the Blitz deserved hazard pay. But when things get that crappy, sometimes we just have to stop and think, be thankful that we're alive, that we're still able to support our family, and that we're also able to support our fellow humans during such dark times.

Or sometimes, we're allowed to bitch that we're not getting what we deserve. That's the thing, you can argue the logistics of why the money isn't there (although the nurses and midlevels are somehow getting it, so...?), but to suggest the residents also shouldn't be pissed about it or talk about it or post about it is crazy to me.

 

[46Long]

The money is probably coming from increased borrowing. . Our hospital is hemorrhaging money right now. If the hospital goes under, we're all out of jobs.




The soldiers in Iraq wanted more armor. They put their lives in even more danger than we are in, and had even less control over their employment situation than residents. Despite having the resources and determination, it still took us a long time to get them what they needed.

Sometimes our situations just plain suck, and we just have to do the best we can. The docs (and all other essential workers) working during the Blitz deserved hazard pay. But when things get that crappy, sometimes we just have to stop and think, be thankful that we're alive, that we're still able to support our family, and that we're also able to support our fellow humans during such dark times.

If you can borrow more money to pay nurses more and midlevels more, you can borrow money to make the trainees whole and pay them more. This is classic bullying type behavior, assuage the folks who are perceived to hurt you more and the powerless you kick. Whether the hospital is hemmorhaging money or not is none of MY or any residents business. They don't includethe residents in the board meetings when they are in surplus and they are all giving each other bonuses and trying to figure out how to make money.

Sometimes our situations do plain suck, True. BUt we have to differentiate do they suck even more for reasons that can be controlled or NOT.
I have Zero sympathy for the hospital corporations. Zero and you should not either. They are EVIL plain and simple.

 

[RangerBob]

All of us don't deserve more money. I certainly don't. I'm sitting at home doing remote work. The residents on the front lines deserve hazard pay. They have no choice in what they're doing and they're literally putting their lives on the line.



You cannot compare the military to being a doctor. Not even remotely the same thing.



Or sometimes, we're allowed to bitch that we're not getting what we deserve. That's the thing, you can argue the logistics of why the money isn't there (although the nurses and midlevels are somehow getting it, so...?), but to suggest the residents also shouldn't be pissed about it or talk about it or post about it is crazy to me.

Sorry-you used the term “front lines” so I ran with the military comparison.

By all means-we should all be pissed about what’s going on. This whole thing sucks. But we can either complain about it and be miserable and jealous of others. Or we dust ourselves off and keep moving forward and help our fellow man.

 

[Mass Effect]

Sorry-you used the term “front lines” so I ran with the military comparison.

By all means-we should all be pissed about what’s going on. This whole thing sucks. But we can either complain about it and be miserable and jealous of others. Or we dust ourselves off and keep moving forward and help our fellow man.

Is there a reason we can't do both? I also wouldn't call it jealousy to stand up for what you deserve when you see others getting it. I call it having a backbone and fighting the possibility of being taken advantage of.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Sorry, but aside from the one email stating "the more mature residents may understand" is there something else I'm missing re:the bolded on both your posts?

There's a GI fellowship director leaked e-mail trying to figure out who signed some anonymous petition.

There's the letters tot he editor for an article written by an undergrad about issues of hazard pay and PPE.

I will concede that it's not a ton, but IMO the leadership response from NYU has left a lot lacking in response to reasonable questions.

 

[Mass Effect]

There's a GI fellowship director leaked e-mail trying to figure out who signed some anonymous petition.

There's the letters tot he editor for an article written by an undergrad about issues of hazard pay and PPE.

I will concede that it's not a ton, but IMO the leadership response from NYU has left a lot lacking in response to reasonable questions.

Sounds to me like NYU leadership could use some "maturing" as well.

 

[<L>]

Sorry-you used the term “front lines” so I ran with the military comparison.

By all means-we should all be pissed about what’s going on. This whole thing sucks. But we can either complain about it and be miserable and jealous of others. Or we dust ourselves off and keep moving forward and help our fellow man.

I'm not even as stoic as you are here. There are issues that are popping up around COVID and resident coverage that need attention, mostly PPE-related. The UCSF Frenso email that was bouncing around Twitter last month comes to mind (though per reports that situation was shut down quickly). Financially, Colorado nixing COL this year is concerning, and I'm pretty pissed at that, though it's not out of the realm of possibility they've taken a hit to a non-federal source of funding for their GME, and the yearly pay difference is small enough that it can be made up in a single shift of moonlighting when this all ends.

 

[RangerBob]

Is there a reason we can't do both? I also wouldn't call it jealousy to stand up for what you deserve when you see others getting it. I call it having a backbone and fighting the possibility of being taken advantage of.

I’m fine with people fighting for what they want/feel they deserve. I just think RNs are getting the so called hazard pay because it’s in their union contracts and the hospitals are likely legally obligated to pay those rates.

If not, then it’s probably because they’ve been pressured politically to do it (which can certainly be effective), in which case others at risk should get that same special treatment.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Again, has nothing to do with hazard pay.

So if you have ten residents in your program and 5 are on inpatient services and 5 are outpatient services, do they all get hazard pay? What if they go on the research elective? Do only the ones on inpatient rotations get it, which would lead to a variety of issues of fairness?

 

[<L>]

So if you have ten residents in your program and 5 are on inpatient services and 5 are outpatient services, do they all get hazard pay? What if they go on the research elective? Do only the ones on inpatient rotations get it, which would lead to a variety of issues of fairness?

Or to double up on this, if you've got a split site residency. Employees at hospital A are offered it, and employees at hospital B aren't? How does your residency handle it?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Nurses have better organized leadership/lobbying. Let's be happy for them (and a bit jealous).

As other pointed out, most residents are fortunate in that they're still drawing their normal salaries, compared to hourly workers (most of whom are seeing their hours cut). The few residents on ICU/inpatient rotations are possibly working harder, but many of those services actually have fewer patients than normal. Inpatient volumes are down in most hospitals, even EDs. Most rotations are being cancelled or scaled down. Residents are doing home research. Only a few are working more than usual, and it's likely just for a month or two. Sure, I'd be happy to see them get hazard pay (I'd be happier to see housekeeping get hazard pay), but I think overall they're better off with not seeing their pay cut due to other rotations being scaled back.

Ugh see this is why I brought up the whole "how much money do residents really bring in vs lose the hospital" thing from before. Because of statements like this.

Residents in funded slots (or in slots where the hospital is not 100% footing the bill for their salary/benefits) should absolutely NOT think of themselves as fortunate vs other people whose jobs are not subsidized by the federal government. Again, if the hospital cut their salary to try to make up for other areas, they would essentially be skimming more money from CMS. Their salaries are directly totally or partially paid for by the federal government.

It'd be like saying someone with a huge R01 grant whose salary is supported by the R01 could have money taken away from the R01 by the hospital just because the hospital is losing money.

 

[Raryn]

It'd be like saying someone with a huge R01 grant whose salary is supported by the R01 could have money taken away from the R01 by the hospital just because the hospital is losing money.

Um. That's exactly how it works? The university gets a cut of all the faculties grants, which they can use for general operating expenses, subsidizing other labs, etc.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Um. That's exactly how it works? The university gets a cut of all the faculties grants, which they can use for general operating expenses, subsidizing other labs, etc.

Right but they don't get to cut into the designated salary support just because the institution happens to run at a loss for a few months. In the exact same way Medicare reimburses for IMEs recognizing that there is some level of institutional support that residents require. however, the hospital isn't allowed to say they're going to expand the amount designated as IMEs and cut the residents salary just because they're running at a loss that year.

 

[<L>]

There's a GI fellowship director leaked e-mail trying to figure out who signed some anonymous petition.

There's the letters tot he editor for an article written by an undergrad about issues of hazard pay and PPE.

I will concede that it's not a ton, but IMO the leadership response from NYU has left a lot lacking in response to reasonable questions.

I'm specifically asking bout "ridicule" of residents as both you and @Mass Effect allege.

Neither thing you cite contains such.

 

[Mass Effect]

So if you have ten residents in your program and 5 are on inpatient services and 5 are outpatient services, do they all get hazard pay? What if they go on the research elective? Do only the ones on inpatient rotations get it, which would lead to a variety of issues of fairness?

No, they don't all get hazard pay. If they did, it wouldn't be hazard pay. Again, hazard pay is a legitimate thing, as defined by the Department of Labor. By definition, those not working in hazardous conditions should not get it. It's completely fair, in my book. I'm a psychiatrist. I don't deserve hazard pay. My colleagues on the front lines do. They're the ones risking their lives while I'm doing remote work.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

No, they don't all get hazard pay. If they did, it wouldn't be hazard pay. Again, hazard pay is a legitimate thing, as defined by the Department of Labor. By definition, those not working in hazardous conditions should not get it. It's completely fair, in my book. I'm a psychiatrist. I don't deserve hazard pay. My colleagues on the front lines do. They're the ones risking their lives while I'm doing remote work.

So if you are on a rotation that is outpatient, but your fellow resident is on an inpatient rotation, you'd be perfectly ok with the other resident getting extra pay and you don't. And then lets say two months from now there's no virus worries, but you never make it to that rotation. You'd be ok with the other guy getting money that you'll never see?

While you, personally, may be ok with that, there will be a bunch of residents out there that would not be ok with it. It would serve to create some animosity between residents. It would also be a bit of a nightmare to handle logistically from a salary perspective with only certain residents in certain programs getting the extra pay.

 

[Mass Effect]

So if you are on a rotation that is outpatient, but your fellow resident is on an inpatient rotation, you'd be perfectly ok with the other resident getting extra pay and you don't. And then lets say two months from now there's no virus worries, but you never make it to that rotation. You'd be ok with the other guy getting money that you'll never see?

While you, personally, may be ok with that, there will be a bunch of residents out there that would not be ok with it. It would serve to create some animosity between residents. It would also be a bit of a nightmare to handle logistically from a salary perspective with only certain residents in certain programs getting the extra pay.

I feel as if I've said I'd be okay with it a bunch of times already. I'm not going to suddenly change my mind when asked over and over again.

Hazard pay -- pay for working in hazardous conditions. Residents not working in hazardous conditions don't get it. It's really not that complicated. It's akin to some people getting bonuses and others not, despite having the same job and same salary.

And let's also not act like this is an impossibility. Some hospitals are already doing it and I would bet my house that they're not paying all the residents hazard pay.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I feel as if I've said I'd be okay with it a bunch of times already. I'm not going to suddenly change my mind when asked over and over again.

Hazard pay -- pay for working in hazardous conditions. Residents not working in hazardous conditions don't get it. It's really not that complicated. It's akin to some people getting bonuses and others not, despite having the same job and same salary.

And let's also not act like this is an impossibility. Some hospitals are already doing it and I would bet my house that they're not paying all the residents hazard pay.

You have residents complaining about normal pay. Do you think those same people aren't going to complain about not getting hazard pay but some of their fellow residents do?

 

[Mass Effect]

I'm specifically asking bout "ridicule" of residents as both you and @Mass Effect allege.

Neither thing you cite contains such.

If you don't call the statements by NYU to be ridiculing the residents, not sure what to tell ya.

 

[Mass Effect]

You have residents complaining about normal pay. Do you think those same people aren't going to complain about not getting hazard pay but some of their fellow residents do?

Not if they're not working in hazardous conditions. And if they do, so what? They have no leg to stand on, unlike the residents who legitimately qualify for hazard pay. When I was in residency, I didn't have a fit when my co residents got pregnant and had maternity leave or when my co-resident was excused from some of our overnight call due to a medical condition. They're a group, but each has individual circumstances that should determine how they're treated and in this case, the ones doing the hazardous work deserve the hazardous pay. The others don't.

 

[Raryn]

I think I need hazard pay for reading this thread.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I'm specifically asking bout "ridicule" of residents as both you and @Mass Effect allege.

Neither thing you cite contains such.

Multiple folks that espouse the 'lack of professionalism', 'greed' and other unsavory terms from NYU's leadership as a discussion of their residents/fellows isn't ridicule to you?

Medical Residents Demand Covid-19 Hazard Pay

Faced with the coronavirus pandemic and dangerous working conditions, medical residents are overworked, scared, and beginning to organize.

theintercept.com

"The head of urology called the ask for hazard pay “not becoming of a compassionate and caring physician.” The director of gastroenterology asked to see the names of any gastroenterology fellows who had signed the petition. "


Here's the thing - Bad Press against the institution WORKS-

"The threat of bad press may be enough action for now. Soon after the email snafu, NYU leadership let residents know that after “additional feedback,” they’d be bumping up planned raises for residents from July 1 to April 1. In a statement, NYU confirmed that “resident and fellows who have provided direct clinical care to Covid patients at a higher level of responsibility than usual will have their compensation advanced to the next PGY level retroactively to April 1, 2020, rather than July 1, 2020. We will also seek to raise funds to help off-set financial stress for those house officers whose partners have lost their jobs. Additionally, we will soon announce how we also plan to address the needs of our staff beyond just our house staff. These individuals, from health care professionals to the maintenance staff, also face similar personal risks, challenges and fears as they too work to support care for the Covid patients.”

 

[<L>]

You have residents complaining about normal pay. Do you think those same people aren't going to complain about not getting hazard pay but some of their fellow residents do?

A solid 30% of my duties in my chief resident year was listening to people in my office complaining about inequitable treatment if the call schedule was off by more than 15 minutes between PG2s, and how using short calls to balance the time differential for an uneven number of weekend days was akin to genocide. The idea that residents wouldn't start complaining about differences is cash compensations is... well...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (gasp) HAHAHAHA!

 

[Mass Effect]

A solid 30% of my duties in my chief resident year was listening to people in my office complaining about inequitable treatment if the call schedule was off by more than 15 minutes between PG2s, and how using short calls to balance the time differential for an uneven number of weekend days was akin to genocide. The idea that residents wouldn't start complaining about differences is cash compensations is... well...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (gasp) HAHAHAHA!

And I'm certain that you bent over backwards and changed things for them just because they complained.

I was a chief too. The things residents complained about was exhausting. Doesn't mean I bent to their every whim. But the potential of resident complaints is also no reason to deny residents who deserve hazard pay hazard pay.

 

[<L>]

Multiple folks that espouse the 'lack of professionalism', 'greed' and other unsavory terms from NYU's leadership as a discussion of their residents/fellows isn't ridicule to you?

Medical Residents Demand Covid-19 Hazard Pay

Faced with the coronavirus pandemic and dangerous working conditions, medical residents are overworked, scared, and beginning to organize.

theintercept.com

"The head of urology called the ask for hazard pay “not becoming of a compassionate and caring physician.” The director of gastroenterology asked to see the names of any gastroenterology fellows who had signed the petition. "


Here's the thing - Bad Press against the institution WORKS-

"The threat of bad press may be enough action for now. Soon after the email snafu, NYU leadership let residents know that after “additional feedback,” they’d be bumping up planned raises for residents from July 1 to April 1. In a statement, NYU confirmed that “resident and fellows who have provided direct clinical care to Covid patients at a higher level of responsibility than usual will have their compensation advanced to the next PGY level retroactively to April 1, 2020, rather than July 1, 2020. We will also seek to raise funds to help off-set financial stress for those house officers whose partners have lost their jobs. Additionally, we will soon announce how we also plan to address the needs of our staff beyond just our house staff. These individuals, from health care professionals to the maintenance staff, also face similar personal risks, challenges and fears as they too work to support care for the Covid patients.”

LOL at the Intercept's outrage porn bringing up the UW residents wanting 90K a year again.

So wait...

"It’s a small concession, but it might be enough for now, Peter said. “I think with the level of emotional exhaustion that we all have just from doing all this that this will probably be enough that people don’t have enough fire to really fight back for more,” he said. “I think they did the bare minimum to make us keep quiet and do what we’re supposed to do.”

So they got their pay and they're STILL bitching about compensation? No wonder their admins weren't exactly jumping out of their chairs with cash.

 

[<L>]

And I'm certain that you bent over backwards and changed things for them just because they complained.

I was a chief too. The things residents complained about was exhausting. Doesn't mean I bent to their every whim. But the potential of resident complaints is also no reason to deny residents who deserve hazard pay hazard pay.

You're telling me you and your co-chief(s) never had to have a private discussion about the maturity or other personal characteristics of one your interns?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

You're telling me you and your co-chief(s) never had to have a private discussion about the maturity or other personal characteristics of one your interns?

That you put in an email chain?

 

[Raryn]

That you put in an email chain?

Pretty sure they didn't mean for the email chain to be nationally publicized.

 

[<L>]

Pretty sure they didn't mean for the email chain to be nationally publicized.

yeah, I'm not sure how botched their infosec, but those were meant to be internal emails that someone got and decided to leak out to the internet.

 

[Mass Effect]

You're telling me you and your co-chief(s) never had to have a private discussion about the maturity or other personal characteristics of one your interns?

Actually, our interns were pretty awesome. The other classes on the other hand...

But no, I can honestly tell you no emails were exchanged in which we disparaged or ridiculed the residents. We kept our correspondence professional.

 

[Mass Effect]

Pretty sure they didn't mean for the email chain to be nationally publicized.

I mean, no one expects an email chain to be nationally publicized. Doesn't excuse the behavior in said email chain.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I mean, no one expects an email chain to be nationally publicized. Doesn't excuse the behavior in said email chain.

If you write something that has your name attached to it, its a good idea to write it such that if it did go public it wouldn't cause a huge uproar.

 

[CopaceticOne]

If you write something that has your name attached to it, its a good idea to write it such that if it did go public it wouldn't cause a huge uproar.

I concur with this. In my previous career I quickly learned that it is best to always assume any written communication will end up being viewed by the folks you don't want to view it. Taking this approach almost always resulted in communicating the same information / concerns without frequently having to defend / explain yourself. This is why so many delicate conversations happen verbally (phone or in-person).

 

[<L>]

If you write something that has your name attached to it, its a good idea to write it such that if it did go public it wouldn't cause a huge uproar.

Certainly not wrong, but given the only thing in those internal emails was a comment that some of the residents aren't mature enough to understand the financial issues the hospital is under and how their own GME funding even works (which this this forum has been showing for years is certainly true) and a a comment about seeing who signed the petition which lead to screams of "OMG, THEY'RE SABOTAGING CAREERS!", it takes some suspension of disbelief to think that the residents in question wouldn't go digging for something else to be offended about to help confirm their priors (or as is the case here posters in this forum who have a history of the same)

On a personal note, If you want to know why I truly don't care about the maturity comment, I was talking with my PC in my last month of residency and she made a comment that I'd matured a lot over my years in the program. It caught me off guard at the time, but it stuck with me, because I really had to look back and concede that she was right, and it put a lot of my issues over the course of med school and residency in perspective.

*Side note, if you put your name to a public petition, what do you think happens? Do you really think people aren't going to see that? You're not in undergrad anymore.

 

[Mass Effect]

Certainly not wrong, but given the only thing in those internal emails was a comment that some of the residents aren't mature enough to understand the financial issues the hospital is under and how their own GME funding even works (which this this forum has been showing for years is certainly true) and a a comment about seeing who signed the petition which lead to screams of "OMG, THEY'RE SABOTAGING CAREERS!", it takes some suspension of disbelief to think that the residents in question wouldn't go digging for something else to be offended about to help confirm their priors

That's your interpretation of the comment as an attending rather than the comment itself and how it's perceived by trainees.

On a personal note, If you want to know why I truly don't care about the maturity comment, I was talking with my PC in my last month of residency and she made a comment that I'd matured a lot over my years in the program. It caught me off guard at the time, but it stuck with me, because I really had to look back and concede that she was right, and it put a lot of my issues over the course of med school and residency in perspective

I have always said that med school should not be an available option to those fresh out of undergrad with no work experience. I do believe we graduate doctors too young and put them in residency, which requires maturity and some type of expectation of how to behave and resolve conflicts in the workplace. That said, I don't think this issue is about maturity, at least not in relation to the residents who really are working on the front lines and are asking to be compensated as such.

*Side note, if you put your name to a public petition, what do you think happens? Do you really think people aren't going to see that? You're not in undergrad anymore.

I always put my name on petitions in which I agree with what's stated/demanded. I don't really care who sees it. I'm prepared to defend my opinions/reasons. I felt this way in residency too, but I think it helped that my program may have disapproved of what we did but never took punitive action against us.

Even in high school, I was signing petitions. In those days it was in response to the corporal punishment policy at my school which was a topic that was important to me. I didn't care if the school found out and I was happy to present my views at the district meeting. Did the same in college regarding other things. Petitions don't scare me.

 

[yeasports]

@Mass Effect
So as I understand you agree with giving only the front line residents hazard pay. How much are we talking about? How often? Where does it come from? Does it increase depending on pgy year like salaries? What do you propose?

 

[Mass Effect]

@Mass Effect
So as I understand you agree with giving only the front line residents hazard pay. How much are we talking about? How often? Where does it come from? Does it increase depending on pgy year like salaries? What do you propose?

I'm not going to get into those types of specifics because it'll vary by hospital, number of residents, reimbursement to others, policy, etc.