Resident Hazard Pay?

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Even in high school, I was signing petitions. In those days it was in response to the corporal punishment policy at my school which was a topic that was important to me. I didn't care if the school found out and I was happy to present my views at the district meeting. Did the same in college regarding other things. Petitions don't scare me.

Wait, do what now?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mass Effect]

Wait, do what now?

The school district had a corporal punishment policy in the handbook. I disagreed that schools should be allowed to physically discipline kids.

 

[yeasports]

I'm not going to get into those types of specifics because it'll vary by hospital, number of residents, reimbursement to others, policy, etc.

could you ballpark? I think it important to your argument that all front line residents should get hazard pay. You are wiling to let the institutions decide what they are going to pay themselves?

Hospital A: 100$ a week funds appropriated from general cme fund thus reducing everyones fund a little
Hospital B: 5000$ a week funds appropriated by a private loan against hospital in hopes of paying back.
Hospital C: 1000$ a week funds appropriated by increasing insurance deductible.
Hospital D: 500$ a week funds appropriated by stopping or reducing meal allowance parking etc.

I think it is easy to say give them money. I think Jerry Seinfeld said: anyone can take reservations, its the fulfillment that matters.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The school district had a corporal punishment policy in the handbook. I disagreed that schools should be allowed to physically discipline kids.

I figured that was your thinking, I just didn't realize that still existed. It had been phased out long before I started grade school and I don't think you're older than I am.

 

[Mass Effect]

could you ballpark? I think it important to your argument that all front line residents should get hazard pay. You are wiling to let the institutions decide what they are going to pay themselves?

Hospital A: 100$ a week funds appropriated from general cme fund thus reducing everyones fund a little
Hospital B: 5000$ a week funds appropriated by a private loan against hospital in hopes of paying back.
Hospital C: 1000$ a week funds appropriated by increasing insurance deductible.
Hospital D: 500$ a week funds appropriated by stopping or reducing meal allowance parking etc.

I think it is easy to say give them money. I think Jerry Seinfeld said: anyone can take reservations, its the fulfillment that matters.

Hospitals allocate different funds to residents all the time. Literally, ever program has a different pay structure. The amount is irrelevant to my point as it WILL vary by hospital (as it should). So no, I won't give a ballpark. Saying give them money without specifying how much is perfectly reasonable and dependent upon the hospital's internal policies and allocation of funds.

 

[Mass Effect]

I figured that was your thinking, I just didn't realize that still existed. It had been phased out long before I started grade school and I don't think you're older than I am.

Yeah, I grew up in a place still in the Stone Age. Fortunately, it was removed.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yeah, I grew up in a place still in the Stone Age. Fortunately, it was removed.

Well I grew up in SC, so if it's more backwards than we are.... You're from Mississippi?

 

[yeasports]

Hospitals allocate different funds to residents all the time. Literally, ever program has a different pay structure. The amount is irrelevant to my point as it WILL vary by hospital (as it should). So no, I won't give a ballpark. Saying give them money without specifying how much is perfectly reasonable and dependent upon the hospital's internal policies and allocation of funds.

Rats, well would you at least pick a hospital A,B,C or D? I spent all that time typing it out.

 

[Raryn]

I have always said that med school should not be an available option to those fresh out of undergrad with no work experience. I do believe we graduate doctors too young and put them in residency, which requires maturity and some type of expectation of how to behave and resolve conflicts in the workplace. That said, I don't think this issue is about maturity, at least not in relation to the residents who really are working on the front lines and are asking to be compensated as such.

Which is funny, given the vast majority of countries in the world graduate doctors younger than we do. The more typical path is ~6 years of med school starting at age 17-18.

 

[Mass Effect]

Well I grew up in SC, so if it's more backwards than we are.... You're from Mississippi?

LOL, nope. I grew up in GA and FL.

 

[Mass Effect]

Which is funny, given the vast majority of countries in the world graduate doctors younger than we do. The more typical path is ~6 years of med school starting at age 17-18.

Yup, I'm aware. I can't speak for other countries and the maturity level of their med school graduates, but I hold my opinion due to direct supervision and observation of the 26 and 27 year olds joining the residency job force. A person's first job shouldn't be as a physician, imo.

 

[Apollyon]

Well I grew up in SC, so if it's more backwards than we are.... You're from Mississippi?

When I lived in SC (which I love), I used to say that there should be an SC plate that says, "Go Mississippi!", because, without them, SC would be #50!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yup, I'm aware. I can't speak for other countries and the maturity level of their med school graduates, but I hold my opinion due to direct supervision and observation of the 26 and 27 year olds joining the residency job force. A person's first job shouldn't be as a physician, imo.

High school is more rigorous in other places quite frequently

 

[<L>]

Hospitals allocate different funds to residents all the time. Literally, ever program has a different pay structure. The amount is irrelevant to my point as it WILL vary by hospital (as it should). So no, I won't give a ballpark. Saying give them money without specifying how much is perfectly reasonable and dependent upon the hospital's internal policies and allocation of funds.

IIRC, you have a pattern of doing this. Post about how the latest resident controversy/issue/complaint is supportive of your thesis that medical training is toxic/exploitative/whatever, then when asked to get specific about what should be done to fix it, you scurry away from answering. That's not the look of someone who cares about solving these problems. That's the look of someone trying to pat themselves on the back and project their self-appointed virtue to the world.

But you saw upthread that NYU got residents a tiny hazard bump by getting COVID service residents an additional year of pay seniority during the pandemic. You think that's acceptable in this case that we've been talking about? NYU residents still aren't happy with it.

That's your interpretation of the comment as an attending rather than the comment itself and how it's perceived by trainees.

As for this, who the **** are you that you've decided that you, and only you, and none of the other young attendings on this board who have been through the same processes as you are specifically able to have special insight into the resident mind? Christ man, if you've been having issues with "medical culture" I can assure you that it's a "you problem".

 

[Mass Effect]

IIRC, you have a pattern of doing this. Post about how the latest resident controversy/issue/complaint is supportive of your thesis that medical training is toxic/exploitative/whatever, then when asked to get specific about what should be done to fix it, you scurry away from answering

Oh good lord. I wasn't asked how to fix it. I was asked to give a specific number that only the hospitals can give. I am not and have never been involved in the financial aspects of a hospital. That's like asking me what Podunk U should pay their residents. I have no clue what Podunk U can afford to pay. What I can surmise as, you know, an intelligent adult is that if there is money to pay nurses hazard pay, then there is money to pay residents hazard pay. How much that money is is hospital dependent and you stomping your feet and demanding to know what it is doesn't change that fact. It only highlights the ridiculous strawman you put out. And no, you don't recall correctly. Anytime I chime in on trainee culture, I also give reasons as to why I think it's wrong and potentially what can be done to fix it.

But you saw upthread that NYU got residents a tiny hazard bump by getting COVID service residents an additional year of pay seniority during the pandemic. You think that's acceptable in this case that we've been talking about? NYU residents still aren't happy with it

I think they deserve hazard pay. How much they get is up to the hospital.

As for this, who the **** are you that you've decided that you, and only you, and none of the other young attendings on this board who have been through the same processes as you are specifically able to have special insight into the resident mind?

When did I say that I, and only I, and none of the other attendings on this board who have been through the same processes as I can't have insight? Stating my opinion about your opinion is not saying that I, and only I, have insight. If you think it does, then I implore you to improve your reading comprehension.

Christ man, if you've been having issues with "medical culture" I can assure you that it's a "you problem".

Now who's the one suggesting that he, and only he, and none of the other attendings on the board, have insight? have problems with the "medical culture" because the "medical culture" in many ways, sucks ass. And no, it's not a me problem.

 

[Splenda88]

The argument in this thread is pretty simple as I see it (I am a simple man ).

Mass effect is saying that if the hospital has money to pay one type of workers that are in the front line hazard pay, they should do the same for all workers in the front line (not necessarily residents)...

 

[Kuratz]

Resident Hazard Pay?

HA!

Just got an email today stating that we will not be receiving COL increases this year.

Big picture: I appreciate that I'm healthy and have a job
Career picture: Medicine is such a joke

 

[deleted814217]

OP basically started this thread with the premise the asking for hazard pay is silly. Bunch of people posted why they felt it wasn't right. Other attendings chimed with their usual stuff about residents and how they are. No one is really going to change anyone's opinion here.

 

[yeasports]

Leader: What do we want?
Group: Hazard pay!
Leader: and how much, how often, were from, and other logistics?
Group: That's irrelevant!

The topic is about hazard pay. I am only trying to expound upon that premise. If that is not welcome maybe it should have been a poll?
Hazard pay: yes or no please no comments.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Mass effect is saying that if the hospital has money to pay one type of workers that are in the front line hazard pay, they should do the same for all workers in the front line (not necessarily residents)...

That's reasonable. It just also means that those people not engaged in the hazardous activity would understand that their pay could/would be cut to provide the hazard pay. That's not only the way that makes sense logistically, but also the fair way.

Instead of trying to "name and shame", residents could have presented their own plan, which is generally more well received than simply presenting a complaint. But I didn't see any residents suggesting that those among them with decreased clinical workload should volunteer a 5% (for example) pay cut so that the money could be redirected to those working on COVID units.

This is, of course, what happened to nurses who might be seeing hazard pay. The PACU nurse sitting at home because there aren't elective surgeries isn't getting hazard pay (or any pay, for that matter). But their wage savings are going to fund the pool for those nurses actually working on the COVID units.

 

[sunshinefl]

This thread already had a poster respond to the idea that residents asking for hazard pay/others on this thread supporting it should also be responsible for the logistics of how:

If you can borrow more money to pay nurses more and midlevels more, you can borrow money to make the trainees whole and pay them more. This is classic bullying type behavior, assuage the folks who are perceived to hurt you more and the powerless you kick. Whether the hospital is hemmorhaging money or not is none of MY or any residents business. They don't includethe residents in the board meetings when they are in surplus and they are all giving each other bonuses and trying to figure out how to make money.

Sometimes our situations do plain suck, True. BUt we have to differentiate do they suck even more for reasons that can be controlled or NOT.
I have Zero sympathy for the hospital corporations. Zero and you should not either. They are EVIL plain and simple.

 

[Mass Effect]

Leader: What do we want?
Group: Hazard pay!
Leader: and how much, how often, were from, and other logistics?
Group: That's irrelevant!

The topic is about hazard pay. I am only trying to expound upon that premise. If that is not welcome maybe it should have been a poll?
Hazard pay: yes or no please no comments.

Can't believe such a simple concept is lost on you. It is irrelevant because it's dependent on each individual hospital, their finances, and how much they're paying others in hazard pay.

It's like this - as a medical director of an inpatient psych unit, if I said "we need to change the locks to badge access," the hospital leadership would not ask me "how are those constructed?" They would form a team to decide what goes into that, how they're made, how much it would cost, etc. It is not up to the doctor to come up with those figures. There are entire groups of people hired by the hospital who do that and if you don't know that, then you're way too inexperienced to even be having this discussion.

 

[greatnt249]

Can't believe such a simple concept is lost on you. It is irrelevant because it's dependent on each individual hospital, their finances, and how much they're paying others in hazard pay.

It's like this - as a medical director of an inpatient psych unit, if I said "we need to change the locks to badge access," the hospital leadership would not ask me "how are those constructed?" They would form a team to decide what goes into that, how they're made, how much it would cost, etc. It is not up to the doctor to come up with those figures. There are entire groups of people hired by the hospital who do that and if you don't know that, then you're way too inexperienced to even be having this discussion.

Would you just state "we need to change the locks" and expect it to be done, or would you more likely lay a case out for leadership as to why you needed it to be done? It seems self-evident that people working hazardous jobs should get hazard pay, but you have to anticipate that you will get pushback making such a request unless you make a concrete case for why you deserve it. And even if you do deserve what you're asking for, that's no guarantee that you'll get it. I'm not saying it's not right to ask for hazard pay; I'm saying there needs to be a well-executed plan for asking for it to begin with.

 

[Mass Effect]

Would you just state "we need to change the locks" and expect it to be done, or would you more likely lay a case out for leadership as to why you needed it to be done? It seems self-evident that people working hazardous jobs should get hazard pay, but you have to anticipate that you will get pushback making such a request unless you make a concrete case for why you deserve it. And even if you do deserve what you're asking for, that's no guarantee that you'll get it. I'm not saying it's not right to ask for hazard pay; I'm saying there needs to be a well-executed plan for asking for it to begin with.

They did explain why they were requesting it.

 

[Mass Effect]

That's reasonable. It just also means that those people not engaged in the hazardous activity would understand that their pay could/would be cut to provide the hazard pay. That's not only the way that makes sense logistically, but also the fair way.

Instead of trying to "name and shame", residents could have presented their own plan, which is generally more well received than simply presenting a complaint. But I didn't see any residents suggesting that those among them with decreased clinical workload should volunteer a 5% (for example) pay cut so that the money could be redirected to those working on COVID units.

This is, of course, what happened to nurses who might be seeing hazard pay. The PACU nurse sitting at home because there aren't elective surgeries isn't getting hazard pay (or any pay, for that matter). But their wage savings are going to fund the pool for those nurses actually working on the COVID units.

I'm sorry, what? It's not the residents' job to do that. If I apply for a job and they offer me 250K and I ask for 300K, it's not my job to figure out how the hospital can afford to pay me that. It's not up to me to say "pay someone else less." That's literally why they have MBAs and the suits doing the finances. I think people are tying themselves into knots to make their point that residents don't deserve the money.

 

[greatnt249]

They did explain why they were requesting it.

And they didn't get what they were asking for. Did whole residencies/fellowships sign the petition, or was it just a few members? Power comes in numbers; the more you have, the harder it is to ignore.

And, while I don't think the leaked e-mails painted faculty in a good light (to put it mildly), nor do I support those attitudes, I have to question whose idea it was to make them public to begin with. Tensions are probably high all throughout that system, and doing that seems something of a "going nuclear" option.

 

[greatnt249]

I'm sorry, what? It's not the residents' job to do that. If I apply for a job and they offer me 250K and I ask for 300K, it's not my job to figure out how the hospital can afford to pay me that. It's not up to me to say "pay someone else less." That's literally why they have MBAs and the suits doing the finances. I think people are tying themselves into knots to make their point that residents don't deserve the money.

I'm not saying they don't deserve something; I'm saying that no one is just going to give it to them if they're not obliged to it by contract or some other agreement unless they make a case for themselves. And by "make a case," I don't mean "a few residents/fellows" sign a petition.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Would you just state "we need to change the locks" and expect it to be done, or would you more likely lay a case out for leadership as to why you needed it to be done? It seems self-evident that people working hazardous jobs should get hazard pay, but you have to anticipate that you will get pushback making such a request unless you make a concrete case for why you deserve it. And even if you do deserve what you're asking for, that's no guarantee that you'll get it. I'm not saying it's not right to ask for hazard pay; I'm saying there needs to be a well-executed plan for asking for it to begin with.

Um yeah I would ask someone to change the locks because the house is unsafe. Usually I would specify some timeframe over which I would like this done. I typically would not specify what types of locks, how much they should pay for them, who should cut the keys, etc. So your analogy is terrible.

I think one of the major issues people are forgetting as this thread goes on is that the hospital leadership basically called these residents uncaring and unprofessional and immature for even daring to ask for hazard pay. I mean they could have had a more understanding response of the stress these residents are experiencing instead of the obviously superficial email that obviously didn't give a crap about this. "I understand your anxieties since they aren't different from my anxieties blah blah blah feel demanding hazard pay now is not becoming of a compassionate or caring physician". The entire email was basically talking about the faculty and himself instead of acknowledging the residents. A little true compassion and appreciation goes a long way, even if you then have to follow that up with "hey we have a significant shortfall financially right now and let's see how this shakes out for the hospital as a whole financially but rest assured if you become ill from COVID while working with COVID patients we will make sure your costs are covered if you receive care in our system (one of their demands and which honestly wouldn't be a huge deal for the hospital since they'd basically just have to cover the deductible/OOP max for whoever actually ends up sick)."

The reason this went viral was the response, not really the demand.

 

[greatnt249]

Um yeah I would ask someone to change the locks because the house is unsafe. Usually I would specify some timeframe over which I would like this done. I typically would not specify what types of locks, how much they should pay for them, who should cut the keys, etc. So your analogy is terrible.

Wasn't my analogy to begin with; that's the reason I commented on it (because I thought it was inadequate).

 

[yeasports]

Can't believe such a simple concept is lost on you. It is irrelevant because it's dependent on each individual hospital, their finances, and how much they're paying others in hazard pay.

It's like this - as a medical director of an inpatient psych unit, if I said "we need to change the locks to badge access," the hospital leadership would not ask me "how are those constructed?" They would form a team to decide what goes into that, how they're made, how much it would cost, etc. It is not up to the doctor to come up with those figures. There are entire groups of people hired by the hospital who do that and if you don't know that, then you're way too inexperienced to even be having this discussion.

Sorry to put you in disbelief. As I understand you are for resident hazard pay. If the hospital "team" crunched the numbers and gave everyone 100000000 bucks or a donation in your name to the human fund you would be fine with that. cool

I'm sorry, what? It's not the residents' job to do that. If I apply for a job and they offer me 250K and I ask for 300K, it's not my job to figure out how the hospital can afford to pay me that. It's not up to me to say "pay someone else less." That's literally why they have MBAs and the suits doing the finances. I think people are tying themselves into knots to make their point that residents don't deserve the money.

I make a lot more that most because I know what and how I generate. I don't need a suit to value my work.

I never said the residents do or don't deserve the pay. I am not trying to make a point. I like to encourage discussion. If you just want to just look at the surface and not explore what the cost or impact would be to help make the decision, that's ok. Do you discuss risks, benefits, alternatives, and convalescence with a patient before a procedure?

 

[Mass Effect]

And they didn't get what they were asking for. Did whole residencies/fellowships sign the petition, or was it just a few members? Power comes in numbers; the more you have, the harder it is to ignore.

And, while I don't think the leaked e-mails painted faculty in a good light (to put it mildly), nor do I support those attitudes, I have to question whose idea it was to make them public to begin with. Tensions are probably high all throughout that system, and doing that seems something of a "going nuclear" option.

I have no idea how many signed. I am not at that institution and know nothing about them. I just shared my opinion that residents on the front lines deserve hazard pay, particularly those at hospitals in which the nurses are getting it.

My understanding is that someone on the thread "accidentally" leaked it to everyone and people then discussed it on social media.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

I know that apparently it's not our "job" to understand how things work, but a relevant paragraph from a JAMA viewpoint out today:

Many hospitals have limited liquid assets and may not be capable of absorbing large financial shocks while also mobilizing sufficient resources to respond to the pandemic (eTable 1 in the Supplement). Based on data from 2018, across US hospitals, the median operating margin (defined as the difference between revenue and operating expenses, divided by revenue) was 2.0% and median asset-to-liability ratio (a measure of a hospital’s ability to pay its short-term debt obligations) was 2.1 (a ratio greater than 1 indicates that a hospital has the assets needed to cover its liabilities). The median hospital had 53.4 days cash on hand (defined as the number of days a hospital can continue to pay its operating expenses) and 49.2 days in net accounts receivable (defined as how long payment is outstanding before it is collected). Many hospitals were in a considerably worse financial position: those in the 25th percentile, for example, had −4.4% operating margins and only 7.6 days cash on hand. Some hospitals do have substantial endowments, particularly teaching hospitals associated with major academic medical centers, but most do not and many of those funds are restricted.

The money has to come from somewhere. And unfortunately, hospitals don't have an enormous discretionary rainy day fund. So while residents don't need to understand the nitty gritty of hospital financials, understanding the broadstrokes is important because it truly may not be a matter of heartless administration, but instead a simple matter of there being no money to give.

 

[46Long]

I know that apparently it's not our "job" to understand how things work, but a relevant paragraph from a JAMA viewpoint out today:



The money has to come from somewhere. And unfortunately, hospitals don't have an enormous discretionary rainy day fund. So while residents don't need to understand the nitty gritty of hospital financials, understanding the broadstrokes is important. Whether or not systems want to provide it, they may not have the means to actually fund such an effort.

Maybe the hospitals shouldnt have spent money on bonuses and even worse an Electronic Medical Record that doesnt even work. They prob would have had money for their rainy day. THe residents know that at least:

12 EHR implementations that cost over $100M

Implementing a new EHR can generate big time costs for hospitals and health systems, with some spending hundreds of millions to even more than a billion dollars on rollouts.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Maybe the hospitals shouldnt have spent money on bonuses and even worse an Electronic Medical Record that doesnt even work. They prob would have had money for their rainy day. THe residents know that at least:

12 EHR implementations that cost over $100M

Implementing a new EHR can generate big time costs for hospitals and health systems, with some spending hundreds of millions to even more than a billion dollars on rollouts.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

If you want to argue poor financial decision making left them in a position where they were unable to provide hazard pay, you get no argument from me. But that's not the only reason financial health of some hospitals is tenuous. And it's also a different argument than saying hospitals won't provide hazard pay out of spite.

 

[CalmAndCollected]

I know that apparently it's not our "job" to understand how things work, but a relevant paragraph from a JAMA viewpoint out today:



The money has to come from somewhere. And unfortunately, hospitals don't have an enormous discretionary rainy day fund. So while residents don't need to understand the nitty gritty of hospital financials, understanding the broadstrokes is important because it truly may not be a matter of heartless administration, but instead a simple matter of there being no money to give.

I think most residents are aware that money doesn't come from anywhere, but many of them feel that the hospital should try and reimburse them for their increase workload and risk either immediately, or at some future point in time (once the hospital is stable). I think if hospitals were transparent about the hospitals economic situation but promised to offer compensation and include it in a contract, things would be rosier.

In reality, we have hospital top brass stating that residents can't get any money for their work while they refusing to cut their 7 figure salary by even a negligable amount.

 

[46Long]

If you want to argue poor financial decision making left them in a position where they were unable to provide hazard pay, you get no argument from me. But that's not the only reason financial health of some hospitals is tenuous. And it's also a different argument than saying hospitals won't provide hazard pay out of spite.

Maybe the 100 fold incease in bureacrats in the past 20 years has small thing to do with the fact that hospitals are cryin'poor.
I call BS on it though, I think they DO have the money. and it is just simply the residents dont have enough political clout to damage them politically or damage. any local councilman's career.
These people are SLIMY mother****ers. BELIEVE ME. They have NO HONOR Or INTEGRITY!

 

[CalmAndCollected]

Maybe the hospitals shouldnt have spent money on bonuses and even worse an Electronic Medical Record that doesnt even work. They prob would have had money for their rainy day. THe residents know that at least:

12 EHR implementations that cost over $100M

Implementing a new EHR can generate big time costs for hospitals and health systems, with some spending hundreds of millions to even more than a billion dollars on rollouts.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Hospitals have, historically, always been bad investments. Unlike most business, you can't deny your service to those who cannot or refuse to pay, and they are legally obligated to continue providing services despite it being a loss for the hospital. It is usally a balancing act between high earning venues paired with high-loss venues (elective surgeries make a lot of money for a hospital, while prolonged ICU stays for medical patients lose a lot of money), leading to generally thin profit margins.

 

[CalmAndCollected]

Maybe the 100 fold incease in bureacrats in the past 20 years has small thing to do with the fact that hospitals are cryin'poor.
I call BS on it though, I think they DO have the money. and it is just simply the residents dont have enough political clout to damage them politically or damage. any local councilman's career.
These people are SLIMY mother****ers. BELIEVE ME. They have NO HONOR Or INTEGRITY!

Most hospital that employ residents are nonprofit. That doesn't mean an individual can't profit (as a doctor who gets paid to see patients does or an executive who gets paid to run the place does), but it does mean that generally speaking, any hospital's profits are invested either back into the hospital or into outside ventures specifically to increase its value to reinvest into the hospital (like if they invest that money in the stock market). This means that that money is generally not liquid and isn't used to make any one person rich.

 

[46Long]

[

Hospitals have, historically, always been bad investments.

Because you have a bunch of dummie c level executives running them. Of course they are bad investments. I wouldn't invest in them.

 

[Mass Effect]

I know that apparently it's not our "job" to understand how things work, but a relevant paragraph from a JAMA viewpoint out today:

The money has to come from somewhere. And unfortunately, hospitals don't have an enormous discretionary rainy day fund. So while residents don't need to understand the nitty gritty of hospital financials, understanding the broadstrokes is important because it truly may not be a matter of heartless administration, but instead a simple matter of there being no money to give.

These are the same hospitals with the CEOs taking home millions, right? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they deserve it, but I don't see anyone protesting their earnings for the good of the hospital. Front line residents deserve hazard pay. How the hospital can afford it is their problem. They'll figure it out, just as they did with the nurses. Residents are no different.

 

[CopaceticOne]

Because you have a bunch of dummie c level executives running them. Of course they are bad investments. I wouldn't invest in them.

No, just no. As previously said - if you are required to provide care, by law in almost all cases, to individuals that cannot pay then the economics of hospital management are already a balancing act. That is why cash businesses (cosmetic derm, plastics, concierge medicine) and high reimbursing elective surgeries (ortho & spines that surgeons can choose to do on patients with nice insurance) are the real money makers. Why do you think many of those separate themselves from the main institutions?

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

These are the same hospitals with the CEOs taking home millions, right? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they deserve it, but I don't see anyone protesting their earnings for the good of the hospital. Front line residents deserve hazard pay. How the hospital can afford it is their problem. They'll figure it out, just as they did with the nurses. Residents are no different.

Well if the hospital can't operate and closes, it becomes everyone's problem. I guess they'll "figure it out" like Hahnemman...which if I recall, went really well for residents. But hey, at least some fraction of the residents would have taken home a few thousand extra this year.

And what are you talking about? The news has been full of stories about hospital admin and staff physicians taking cuts to pay, bonuses and benefits. No, that money isn't going to hazard pay. It's going towards keeping the lights on.

Finally, as I mentioned previously, nurse hazard pay is likely offset by reductions in nurses who weren't working as much as expected. The analog would be reduction in salary for residents with reduced clinical volume. That seems to be a conveniently overlooked point.

 

[46Long]

These are the same hospitals with the CEOs taking home millions, right? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they deserve it, but I don't see anyone protesting their earnings for the good of the hospital. Front line residents deserve hazard pay. How the hospital can afford it is their problem. They'll figure it out, just as they did with the nurses. Residents are no different.

How can you say the CEOs deserve to take home MILLIONS. Absolutely they do not.They run a failed entity as evidenced and revealed by the pandemic. They deserve to be sent home packing. And if they are like the Columbia COO Laura Forese, if i were the board I would send her back down to the orthopedic clinic (since she is an orthopedic surgeon) and say you dont make ANY money unless you see patients or operate. You are done after her stunt.
Same for the NYU executives and chairman. They would ALL be relieved of their duties.

Can you for one moment imagine any executive or any real company responding to their most important workers publicly like that?

 

[NITRAS]

My healthcare system is a $10B institution. . . . And they have lost about a billion dollars in the past few months.

You think C-suit of other $10B companies don’t make 7 figures? I actually have no idea about the salaries of my leadership team, but I don’t envy them during this time were they are losing money hand over fist.

Oh wait. I forgot the flow sheet for SDN.

1. Can I blame NPs or PA’s for something? No, then go to 2.
2. Wait. . . Did you think about going to a Caribbean school? No, then go to 3.
3. Administration is a meaningless tick on everyone’s left butt cheek. Don’t really know what they do. . But there are a lot of meetings. No,
4. Are you sure we can’t blame midlevels? Probably not a no. . . But if still no then go one
5. Prestige means everything. . . its worth extra hundreds of thousands dollars of debt which you will never pay off because you are following your “passion” . . . . Which turns into retiring before you are 40 y/o.

Rinse repeat.

 

[46Long]

My healthcare system is a $10B institution. . . . And they have lost about a billion dollars in the past few months.

You think C-suit of other $10B companies don’t make 7 figures? I actually have no idea about the salaries of my leadership team, but I don’t envy them during this time were they are losing money hand over fist.

Oh wait. I forgot the flow sheet for SDN.

1. Can I blame NPs or PA’s for something? No, then go to 2.
2. Wait. . . Did you think about going to a Caribbean school? No, then go to 3.
3. Administration is a meaningless tick on everyone’s left butt cheek. Don’t really know what they do. . But there are a lot of meetings. No,
4. Are you sure we can’t blame midlevels? Probably not a no. . . But if still no then go one
5. Prestige means everything. . . its worth extra hundreds of thousands dollars of debt which you will never pay off because you are following your “passion” . . . . Which turns into retiring before you are 40 y/o.

Rinse repeat.

Wait a minute!! Is your name Laura Forese? or maybe not do you work for NYU or are you Dr Grossman of Grossman school of medicine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[myPsychAlt]

know that apparently it's not our "job" to understand how things work,

The fact that people are actually arguing this is making my head spin.

I really wish it didn't have so many psych and psych-interested people supporting that position too. We get enough work-averse trainees as it is.

 

[sunshinefl]

The fact that people are actually arguing this is making my head spin.

I really wish it didn't have so many psych and psych-interested people supporting that position too. We get enough work-averse trainees as it is.

What? Lol. Doing the work of a hospital administrator would take away from a resident physician’s work. You’re really trying to spin it as lazy to say that a resident physician, who thus far has not been a part of any hospital board meetings/financials/administrative bloat, is lazy for not suddenly taking on that role, during a pandemic? That’s making my head spin.

 

[Raryn]

Some people in this thread fail basic math.

Revenues are down. Expenses are being cut. Meanwhile, some would like a pay increase - of course, who wouldn't like a pay increase? Except that you can't get blood from a stone.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

Doing the work of a hospital administrator would take away from a resident physician’s work.

No one is suggesting that residents/physicians do the work of the administrators and financial people. I think we're saying you have to understand some of the things that go into how those decisions are made, and frame your requests to account for those realities.

As an intern, the call schedule isn't your "job". But if you want to ask for a day off, it certainly will help your case when you understand how the schedule works and attempt to suggest solutions or have pre-arranged coverage/switch prior to your request.

 

[sunshinefl]

No one is suggesting that residents/physicians do the work of the administrators and financial people. I think we're saying you have to understand some of the things that go into how those decisions are made, and frame your requests to account for those realities.

As an intern, the call schedule isn't your "job". But if you want to ask for a day off, it certainly will help your case when you understand how the schedule works and attempt to suggest solutions or have pre-arranged coverage/switch prior to your request.

That’s fair. But you are privy to the call rules, the call schedule, how to get in contact with your co-interns, etc. You are not privy to the hospital’s financial balance sheet, endowment, payroll, employee salaries, etc.