Retake MCAT 4th time or give up Med School

[Lawpy]

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I mean, when you have average gpas that go up into the 3.8/3.9 range, you would expect to have a higher MCAT average as well. So while a 507-508 isn't bad, it's not on par with what the gpa reported average are.

And because TX weighs the MCAT less, they are less inclined to follow in suit with AAMC and average them to find the most realistic expectation of a board score, because they seem to place less evidence on it as a whole.

Think of it in terms of how D.O schools believe in reinvention, and allow grade retakes- they don't place as much emphasis on initial grades. Same as TX not placing as much emphasis on initial MCAT scores. I'm not trying to argue with you, but simply stating this as someone who has been to info meetings with TX deans and as someone who has interviewed at TX schools.

Then something else is happening to contribute to lower-than-national matriculation rate, because a high GPA/low MCAT is not that difficult to achieve (relatively speaking).

And sure you may have talked to TX deans and interviewers, but you weren't there when adcoms were making evaluations. These stuff are done behind closed doors, so no one knows. I am simply showing the validity and reliability in averaging multiple scores, and why OP should follow the averaging metric to have the most realistic perspective.

I would rather be prepared with the worst case scenario and be very pleasantly surprised with a successful cycle than pinning my hopes on best case scenario and being brutally shut out.

 

[GinnyWeasley]

Then something else is happening to contribute to lower-than-national matriculation rate, because a high GPA/low MCAT is not that difficult to achieve (relatively speaking).

And sure you may have talked to TX deans and interviewers, but you weren't there when adcoms were making evaluations. These stuff are done behind closed doors, so no one knows. I am simply showing the validity and reliability in averaging multiple scores, and why OP should follow the averaging metric to have the most realistic perspective.

I would rather be prepared with the worst case scenario and be very pleasantly surprised with a successful cycle than pinning my hopes on best case scenario and being brutally shut out.

I'm not saying I know what the adcom was doing/thinking, but I'm simply stating why TX doesn't average and that they emphasize GPA. And I agree, it's better to prepare for the worst, but as OP is from TX, I wanted to give advice based on TX specifically, since it is slightly different.

As for the lower than national matriculation rate- people assume that TX is a very easy state to get into and thus on SDN people assume we have a high matriculation rate. Those of us in TX have always acknowledged it's not easy, so that number was not surprising one bit. Think about it- we have a large population of students applying for a limited number of spots. Of course the matriculation rate is going to be lowish.

 

[SwordOfTheMorning]

So, the US MD matriculant MCAT score is a 31 or a 510. MD schools usually average all scores, as per following the AAMC policy of retakes.

This means: 510 = (498 + 501 + 501 + new score) / 4 --> 510*4 = 2040 = 1500 + new score --> new score = 540. This is impossible, because the highest score is a 528.

Now, let's assume you get a 528 on the 4th attempt. Your average of all these scores would be 507. This is roughly a standard deviation below the matriculant MCAT average (or at least, near the lower end), which means US MD is out.

Your best bet is to apply broadly to US DO.

The bolded is actually not true. Some do, yes. But the way you phrased it implies the majority do.

 

[Lawpy]

The bolded is actually not true. Some do, yes. But the way you phrased it implies the majority do.

Adcoms don't always follow school policy. Read my earlier posts on the matter. Averaging is supported by objective data and studies, while the stated school policy is unsupported and can be based on various reasons.

When I say what MD schools do, I'm essentially assessing what adcoms may do using various predictive metrics.

I'm not saying I know what the adcom was doing/thinking, but I'm simply stating why TX doesn't average and that they emphasize GPA. And I agree, it's better to prepare for the worst, but as OP is from TX, I wanted to give advice based on TX specifically, since it is slightly different.

As for the lower than national matriculation rate- people assume that TX is a very easy state to get into and thus on SDN people assume we have a high matriculation rate. Those of us in TX have always acknowledged it's not easy, so that number was not surprising one bit. Think about it- we have a large population of students applying for a limited number of spots. Of course the matriculation rate is going to be lowish.

And I'm saying what TX schools openly say may not be what happens during adcom meetings. You can't say for certain that TX doesn't average if you don't know what adcoms do behind closed doors (and this is critical, since adcoms are the ones who judge and decide who to interview/accept)

Yeah and I bet those with strong MCATs get the best success with TX schools. And strong MCATs also help Texans matriculate to schools OOS with good scholarship when normally they would remain in state (due to cheaper IS tuition). So MCAT becomes key factor.

Anyways, my position on adhering to the averaging policy is strongly justified, since I don't depend on school policy (which isn't reliable) and I know the AAMC recommendation is supported by various studies. So sticking to averaged scores as the safe lower estimate is the best approach.

Whether OP wants to believe me is their prerogative, but my advice to them is to not waste the time/effort retaking the MCAT (they did badly 3 times in 6 months spaced out, so frankly, they peaked regardless of what strategy they used/want to use), and simply apply broadly to DO.

 

[GinnyWeasley]

Adcoms don't always follow school policy. Read my earlier posts on the matter. Averaging is supported by objective data and studies, while the stated school policy is unsupported and can be based on various reasons.

When I say what MD schools do, I'm essentially assessing what adcoms may do using various predictive metrics.



And I'm saying what TX schools openly say may not be what happens during adcom meetings. You can't say for certain that TX doesn't average if you don't know what adcoms do behind closed doors (and this is critical, since adcoms are the ones who judge and decide who to interview/accept)

Yeah and I bet those with strong MCATs get the best success with TX schools. And strong MCATs also help Texans matriculate to schools OOS with good scholarship when normally they would remain in state (due to cheaper IS tuition). So MCAT becomes key factor.

Anyways, my position on adhering to the averaging policy is strongly justified, since I don't depend on school policy (which isn't reliable) and I know the AAMC recommendation is supported by various studies. So sticking to averaged scores as the safe lower estimate is the best approach.

Whether OP wants to believe me is their prerogative, but my advice to them is to not waste the time/effort retaking the MCAT (they did badly 3 times in 6 months spaced out, so frankly, they peaked regardless of what strategy they used/want to use), and simply apply broadly to DO.

I think we're going to disagree no matter what haha. Sure I don't know what adcoms do behind close doors, but neither do you or anyone else for that matter. And sure the deans could lie to us and say they only accept the most recent when they really average. But considering many schools have said how many of their students have taken the mcat 2+ times, I tend to trust that fact. I understand you disagree.

There are a lot of people on here that have average gpa/high mcats like I do and have a lot of trouble getting in to TX schools. I interviewed at top 10s, yet only have 2 IIs in TX. I'm not just making this stuff up as I go along- there is a real disparity between TX gpas and mcats. I don't think there's much left to say on my part. Thanks for all the info though!

 

[Lawpy]

I think we're going to disagree no matter what haha. Sure I don't know what adcoms do behind close doors, but neither do you or anyone else for that matter. And sure the deans could lie to us and say they only accept the most recent when they really average. But considering many schools have said how many of their students have taken the mcat 2+ times, I tend to trust that fact. I understand you disagree.

There are a lot of people on here that have average gpa/high mcats like I do and have a lot of trouble getting in to TX schools. I interviewed at top 10s, yet only have 2 IIs in TX. I'm not just making this stuff up as I go along- there is a real disparity between TX gpas and mcats. I don't think there's much left to say on my part. Thanks for all the info though!

Yeah i understand. I'm just very skeptical about stated school MCAT policy.

I'm not sure how TX schools do their admissions then. All i can think of is they're caring more about the whole app than just stats.

 

[SwordOfTheMorning]

Adcoms don't always follow school policy. Read my earlier posts on the matter. Averaging is supported by objective data and studies, while the stated school policy is unsupported and can be based on various reasons.

When I say what MD schools do, I'm essentially assessing what adcoms may do using various predictive metrics.

No one is arguing about wether averaging is a better policy or not. I'm just saying that many, probably most, schools don't average. A list made last year: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/multiple-mcat-score-policy-school-list.1138370/

And anecdotally, as an ORM, the average 0f my two MCAT scores, low 500s, probably wouldn't have landed me the 4 MD II I've received so far. So I cautiously believe schools that say they won't average scores.

 

[Lawpy]

No one is arguing about wether averaging is a better policy or not. I'm just saying that many, probably most, schools don't average. A list made last year: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/multiple-mcat-score-policy-school-list.1138370/

And anecdotally, as an ORM, the average 0f my two MCAT scores, low 500s, probably wouldn't have landed me the 4 MD II I've received so far. So I cautiously believe schools that say they won't average scores.

Ok so I'm repeating myself several times because apparently this topic still needs clarification.

1. Trust in the averaging policy because it's supported and based on valid and reliable data. School policy is unsupported and can be used for selfish reasons (to boost their MCAT medians). So having threads on what schools use what policy doesn't say anything because adcoms can do what they want when they evaluate applications (and it's evaluation that matters).

2. Adcoms are not obligated to follow school policy. Adcoms are strongly encouraged to follow averaging policy because adcoms are faculty members driven by science and they want to produce the best possible class. So they will take into account of these studies when dealing with multiple scores.

3. It is always wise to prepare for the worst case scenario when advising applicants with multiple scores. Better to be pleasantly surprised when preparing for the worst than brutally shut out hoping for the best.

4. Lastly, I never said that it's impossible for applicants to get accepted with multiple scores, nor that averaging would ruin them. I just simply said averaging policy is the best metric that is supported by data. Applicants can get interviews/acceptances at places where adcoms average, even despite averaged scores being lower than school median, provided they have something else that would make them a good fit for the class.

None of this discussion applies to OP because they are stuck with 3x bad MCAT scores, and my arguments only hold for US MD/AMCAS which does not apply to OP.

For the readers, whether they want to believe me is up to them. I just presented supported arguments with valid studies that adcoms here approve when they advise multiple MCAT scenarios. If they want to believe in unsupported school policy and use metrics like superscoring/highest scores when designing school lists, more power to them.

 

[SwordOfTheMorning]

Ok so I'm repeating myself several times because apparently this topic still needs clarification.

1. Trust in the averaging policy because it's supported and based on valid and reliable data. School policy is unsupported.

2. Adcoms are not obligated to follow school policy. Adcoms are strongly encouraged to follow averaging policy because adcoms are faculty members driven by science and they want to produce the best possible class. So they will take into account of these studies when dealing with multiple scores.

3. It is always wise to prepare for the worst case scenario when advising applicants with multiple scores. Better to be pleasantly surprised when preparing for the worst than brutally shut out hoping for the best.

4. Lastly, I never said that it's impossible for applicants to get accepted with multiple scores, nor that averaging would ruin them. I just simply said averaging policy is the best metric that is supported by data.

None of this discussion applies to OP because they are stuck with 3x bad MCAT scores, and my arguments only hold for US MD/AMCAS which does not apply to OP.

For the readers, whether they want to believe me is up to them. I just presented supported arguments with valid studies that adcoms here approve when they advise multiple MCAT scenarios. If they want to believe in unsupported school policy and use metrics like superscoring/highest scores when designing school lists, more power to them.

I feel like we're going in circles.

1) No one is arguing whether studies have shown the benefits of averaging.
2) Adcoms are strongly encouraged to follow averaging policy by who? Yes, the AAMC encourages it. But you make too many assumptions about adcoms and individual school activities. Saying they "follow the best science" is very simplistic. The link I provided earlier shows that schools vary widely on this matter.
3. Not disagreeing on this point. But it can also be misleading, because not all schools average. So taking your advice verbatim can make you seem like a much weaker candidate than you actually are.
4. Again, no one argued this point.


I'm just saying to not imply that most schools average. Because that's not true. That's all.

 

[illini93]

Hey guys,

So I've applied this cycle to all Texas schools and a couple of other OOS but haven't heard anything from them yet. Disappointed and sad as I am, I'm not sure what I should do now.

My 3 MCAT is

May 2015; 498
Jan 2016: 501 (128-122- 127-124)
July 2016: 501 (127-124-125-125)

I started at a CC due to financial issues, ended up taking almost all prerequisites with a GPA of 3.95. I graduated from college majored in biochemistry with a 3.73 GPA.

I'm non traditional and TX resident. I have 2 publications and very nice ECs and letters of recommendation.

I talked to 2 MS4 and they both advised me to find something else to do in life. Med school adcom will not look at a 4th MCAT re-applicant.

I really want to pursue medical school. I registered for next April test and am starting to study for MCAT again. However, this test really drains me and hurts my relationship with my husband. He's totally against another retake.

What should I do? What are my chances this year or next year?

Hey Phpharma,

I am also a non-traditional student with a bachelor's degree in biochemistry. I went to a state school and had 3.80+ GPA. I also took MCAT three times (I took the old MCAT twice). I didn't do so well on my old MCATs (60-65 percentile on both of them). I also felt that my MCAT scores were not competitive enough to apply for an MD program, so I decided to take a gap year and study for the new MCAT. In 2016, I took the new MCAT and scored 80+ percentile on it.

I applied to both MD/PhD and MD programs this cycle. Thus far, I received a good number of interview invites from MD/PhD programs as well as one from an MD program (I am still waiting on most of my MD schools as I applied late). I think you should give yourself one last chance. This time, give yourself enough time to study for the MCAT. As long as you make an improvement, I am sure schools will seriously consider your application.

If you have any questions, please let me know. I will be happy to answer them.

 

[Lawpy]

I feel like we're going in circles.

1) No one is arguing whether studies have shown the benefits of averaging.
2) Adcoms are strongly encouraged to follow averaging policy by who? Yes, the AAMC encourages it. But you make too many assumptions about adcoms and individual school activities. Saying they "follow the best science" is very simplistic. The link I provided earlier shows that schools vary widely on this matter.
3. Not disagreeing on this point. But it can also be misleading, because not all schools average. So taking your advice verbatim can make you seem like a much weaker candidate than you actually are.
4. Again, no one argued this point.


I'm just saying to not imply that most schools average. Because that's not true. That's all.

The fundamental disagreement is you misinterpreted my initial comments about US MD schools usually averaging multiple scores and you responded by posting a thread about school policies. I don't care about specific school policies, since my argument is focused on general adcom perceptions. It's the adcoms that evaluate the application to whatever they choose, and it's the medical schools as a whole that specify whatever policy they want for reporting purposes.

Yes we don't know what adcoms do behind closed doors, but we have a realistic and supported estimate on what they can do with multiple scores. And supported estimates are always better than unsupported estimates. In fact, the paper I linked earlier decisively showed that averaging the scores correlate much more accurately to medical school performance than recent/highest/superscored metrics. This is compelling support in favor of averaged scores that convinces adcoms of its support should they care about having the best incoming class (and they do care).

So when I tell applicants with multiple scores to apply with averaged score, I am showing that these applicants have a definite and realistic lower bound that represents the worst case scenario. Given that many such applicants do get accepted, it's safe to say they did better than conservative expectations. This is always the best outcome

 

[Lawpy]

So as a summary:

1. Don't rely too much on school policy on multiple MCAT retakes (I personally ignore them). School policy is usually for many reasons, including selfish ones to improve their reporting statistics.

2. Take the AAMC averaging policy seriously. The adcoms here agree: the best MCAT outcome is a single, strong score. Having two or more scores undermines the value of the last/highest score (because adcoms could say there are applicants who got said highest score in only one attempt). The averaging method helps minimize these variations to give an accurate outlook.

3. By definition, averaged score is always lower than highest and superscored scores. It's usually lower than most recent score in successful applications (because a downward MCAT trend is a red flag signifying knowledge decay). So, averaged scores provide a conservative, lower bound estimate of multiple scores.

4. Since averaged scores represent the lower bound, applicants with multiple scores can still get accepted if adcoms are forgiving (especially if they like something significant in their applications).

5. And lastly, while I congratulate successful applicants with multiple scores getting acceptances, I would not take their anecdotes as absolute truth. If anything, their success illustrates they did better than conservative expectations, which is always good. But their success does not undermine the strong, factual support of the averaging policy, nor do they give support to non-averaging school policies (because adcoms who average scores can still accept these applicants for non-MCAT reasons).

 

[hepato_majalis]

Thank you everyone for giving your advices and sharing your thoughts with me. You all are very supporting and resourceful throughout your notes and I truly appreciate you taking your precious time to post them here!

I've been very depressed for the past 2 years, mainly because of these retakes. They really affect my life quality and somewhat distract me from straight thinking. I cried during the big break of the last attemp and I should have taken it as a sign to void the result. I did not. I kept repeating the same mistake.

Hey Phpharma,

I am also a non-traditional student with a bachelor's degree in biochemistry. I went to a state school and had 3.80+ GPA. I also took MCAT three times (I took the old MCAT twice). I didn't do so well on my old MCATs (60-65 percentile on both of them). I also felt that my MCAT scores were not competitive enough to apply for an MD program, so I decided to take a gap year and study for the new MCAT. In 2016, I took the new MCAT and scored 80+ percentile on it.

I applied to both MD/PhD and MD programs this cycle. Thus far, I received a good number of interview invites from MD/PhD programs as well as one from an MD program (I am still waiting on most of my MD schools as I applied late). I think you should give yourself one last chance. This time, give yourself enough time to study for the MCAT. As long as you make an improvement, I am sure schools will seriously consider your application.

If you have any questions, please let me know. I will be happy to answer them.

Thank you for following my post and sharing your story with me.

My questions for you:
-Did you explain your MCAT trend anywhere in your application or interview day? How did you do it?

-What did you do differently on your last attempt?

 

[ERDOC555]

I think Lawper has done a great job explaining his points and I agree with everything he/she said.

One other thing I'll add is this:

Put yourself in their shoes and pretend you're an Adcom member at a school that has a policy of "only using the most recent score" and you're evaluating candidates. One student went from 501 -> 503 -> 508 and another student got a 508 on the first try. How would you interpret that if you were an adcom? Do you really think any adcom turns a blind eye to the first two attempts and pretends that both scores are equal? What would you do?

This is not to say that you can't get into medical school if you had a retake or two, but regardless of what a school claims, retakes will always be worse for an applicant compared to a student who earned that score in one attempt.

To say that Score X on the first try is equal to Score X on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th try is simply untrue.

 

[illini93]

Thank you everyone for giving your advices and sharing your thoughts with me. You all are very supporting and resourceful throughout your notes and I truly appreciate you taking your precious time to post them here!

I've been very depressed for the past 2 years, mainly because of these retakes. They really affect my life quality and somewhat distract me from straight thinking. I cried during the big break of the last attemp and I should have taken it as a sign to void the result. I did not. I kept repeating the same mistake.

Thank you for following my post and sharing your story with me.

My questions for you:
-Did you explain your MCAT trend anywhere in your application or interview day? How did you do it?

-What did you do differently on your last attempt?

1. I did not mention anything about my MCAT scores on the primary application. You have an option to do so on your secondary applications (most schools will ask you to provide any additional information). To be honest, no one really asked me about my previous MCAT scores on the interview day. I remember maybe one person telling me about how I made a right call by taking it again to improve my score. However, don't worry too much about this for now. I suggest you focus on improving your score first. You will have a plenty of time to worry about this later once you start your application.

2. In general, I spent 3+ hours everyday for three months to prepare for the new MCAT. It is very important that you review every question you missed (even the ones you guessed correctly). Try to take a full-length exam every week or two. A month before the exam, you should try to take two full-length exams every week.

 

[libertyyne]

The real question is not that you studied over a long duration for the mcat, rather how many actual hours did you dedicate? How many practice exams did you take? It seems like you have been doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Have you logged greater than 500-700 hours for studying prior to the exam? Your scores are lethal for MD school, DO school might be possible but it is still a small chance.

 

[NucleusO]

While adcoms see all the scores though and make their own decisions, not all schools average. A lot of schools actually take the most recent.

Some schools will even take the highest score from each section and add it up to create a new score. I think you just really have to do research into the schools and call them to see how they calculate retakes.

 

[YogaBe@r]

M2 at a Texas MD medical school. Just gonna throw my 2 cents in:

One of my classmates took the MCAT 5 times and had to apply twice, but he got an acceptance and is doing well in our courses! He was told to give up many times and told to go into an entirely different field than medicine. If it is truely your passion, then keep trying! Learn from your mistakes and do better 🙂 The MCAT is not the end all be all for your application. As long as the rest of it is excellent, you still have a fighting chance. Evaluate yourself and ask if this path is the best for you and how far are you willing to push yourself to make it happen. GL OP! I wish the best to you.

 

[Horse Apiece]

Thank you everyone for giving your advices and sharing your thoughts with me. You all are very supporting and resourceful throughout your notes and I truly appreciate you taking your precious time to post them here!

I've been very depressed for the past 2 years, mainly because of these retakes. They really affect my life quality and somewhat distract me from straight thinking. I cried during the big break of the last attemp and I should have taken it as a sign to void the result. I did not. I kept repeating the same mistake.

Thank you for following my post and sharing your story with me.

My questions for you:
-Did you explain your MCAT trend anywhere in your application or interview day? How did you do it?

-What did you do differently on your last attempt?

It is hard to, but you should try an distance your value of self worth from standardized testing, and schooling in general. It is especially hard to do so as a pre-healthcare student when your professional future depends on doing excellent. Even if you do well, the feeling from the accolades and accomplishments are fleeting. There is always more expected, and another step until you've made it. Many people get so caught up in the process that they fail to look at the end goal, which is to practice as a physician. A job they have put on a pedestal, partially because of the competitive nature to make it there. So people who tie their self worth to the process will find out at the end that much of the satisfaction in medicine needs to come from an internal center of gratification. You wont get this during medical school or residency, or even general practice. That great undergrad student is no longer a special snowflake, and becomes a sleep deprived working machine. For every "thank you doctor" there is going to be multiple points of failure along with spiteful and malicious patients.

Just know this. People that do poorly on the MCAT can come back to it and a big part of this is setting a good realistic schedule, and following the study patterns of those who have done well (archived in the 509+ study habits, and some r/mcat threads). Take this issue as one you have control over, because you do. Having good foresight, and making good decisions given your personal circumstances is the majority of being pre-medical.

 

[Sed8&Intub8]

Been in your shoes. Took it 3 times, thought I studied 'hard' but didn't do so well at all. Had a terrible GPA (3.3) with sGPA of 3.0. ORM. Was depressed. Decided to make a change, went to grad school, did well, got a few publications, did a lot of volunteer work. Properly studied for MCAT, followed a schedule, took it for a 4th time, did better. Got solid letters, took my AMCAS application very seriously, applied broadly to MD and DO, spoke to admissions folks. I still didn't actually expect to get into med school, but I didn't want to regret not even trying. I got 3 IIs, followed by 3 acceptances including my top choice MD school. Now I'm finishing up my 2nd year.

Point is. Sit down. Figure out why you didn't do well. Set a schedule, follow it, cut out all distractions, really beat yourself up for missing questions. Don't take it until you are more than prepared. Prepare a solid application. Balls in your court.

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