Retaking a 512? Pointless or beneficial?

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@Lnsean just curious about where you stand on people who took both the old and the new mcat.

Old mcat: 32 (512/88%)
New mcat: 520 (98%)

Would you attribute the increase to experience with previous test, better prep, difference in exam, or test-taker doing poorly for some reason the first time? Do you think the old score or the new score is most reflective of this tester?

Old vs new mcat...is a clean slate....so I have the utmost respect for people who did well on the first attempt of the new mcat...regardless of what they scored on the old mcat. It's when you're sitting for multiple atttemmpts of the same exam that really diminishes the effort/work that someone put in their first attempt. My argument isn't new vs old mcats...it's people sitting for multiple attempts of the same exam and argue how that is not an advantage.

It is clearly an advantage, that's why AAMC does not score your exam if your void. Also, from reading all the adcoms that posted on here...they do not look too fondly on retakes either.
 
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Alright I feel compelled to try one last time.

Lnsean, people who take the test, get a score, and then retake the test perform the same +/- a couple points.

How is this compatible with a prior scored test being hugely advantageous?
 
This doesn't disprove anything I have said. Just because there are people who retake and did worst doesn't mean there aren't people who retook and did better. There are many people who retook and did better because they had that advantage. AAMC agrees...and to prevent people from abusing this by sitting for as many attempts as they want...AAMC does not score your exam if you void. If AAMC feels the need to do this...then it is obviously an advantage. Many people...including myself...would pay AAMC for a service that offers scored but voided exams on various sittings.

If sitting for many attempts and knowing your performance did not give you an advantage...AAMC would allow you to do so.

Right and I said that but the improvement is actually insignificant (2 points at best and not really meaningful).

But you think voiding/not releasing the score is an advantage because test takers have the experience of taking the real deal multiple times, suppressing/voiding their attempts, and scoring their best attempt as the only score?
 
Old vs new mcat...is a clean slate....so I have the utmost respect for people who did well on the first attempt of the new mcat...regardless of what they scored on the old mcat. It's when you're sitting for multiple atttemmpts of the same exam that really diminishes the effort/work that someone put in their first attempt.

Okay I agree with you regarding old/new comparison.
 
Alright I feel compelled to try one last time.

Lnsean, people who take the test, get a score, and then retake the test perform the same +/- a couple points.

How is this compatible with a prior scored test being hugely advantageous?

Because you know your weakness and strengths...so you can better prepare for it on your 2nd sitting if you chose to do so. This doesn't mean that everyone takes advantage of this (because it still requires effort and work)...but the advantage still exists. That is why AAMC DOES NOT SCORE YOUR EXAM IF YOU VOID. AAMC feels that it's a big enough advantage to not allow ppl to know their prior performance in preparing for it the second time around.

Just because there are people that don't score significant higher their 2nd time does not mean the advantage does not exist. It does. AAMC feels that it does. Some people choose to take advantage of this and tailor their studies for the 2nd attempt....some do not because they're lazy or other factors. Your data does not negate anything I have said.
 
Doesn't it seem more likely that the voiding system exists out of necessity? That is, it wouldn't work to let people see their score and then decide to ditch it. The only good way to have a score dumping system is if the tester is still blinded when deciding to dump. Has nothing to do with prior exams being a big advantage.

Here is the AAMC data about most retakers doing similarly for anyone interested.
 
Doesn't it seem more likely that the voiding system exists out of necessity? That is, it wouldn't work to let people see their score and then decide to ditch it. The only good way to have a score dumping system is if the tester is still blinded when deciding to dump. Has nothing to do with prior exams being a big advantage.

Here is the AAMC data about most retakers doing similarly for anyone interested.

No it doesn't. AAMC can still grade your exam so you know where you stand and your performance on each section. I would like to know that...and would pay for that...even if I knew my score was already no good/unofficial.
 
Perhaps someone with more insight can chime in here...

From reading these threads, why is it that the logic regarding MCATs seem to run somewhat counterintuitive to certain "qualities" that medical schools look for?

Why does multiple retakes (assuming improvement in score) not show determinism or a commitment to excellence (why must this go to hubris)? I was also under the assumption that schools weigh your most recent score most heavily, but somehow there's also a great emphasis on doing well the very first time around?

Medical schools also like applicants to show resilience/overcoming various challenges. If someone improved dramatically from one sitting to the next, why would the first score matter so much? Or do adcoms generally view the first sitting as "most reflective of student's ability" and subsequent ones as "improving from experience" and/or "student got lucky"?

Is it more important to not re-take a perfectly "good" score or is it more important to have a score an applicant feels is reflective of their capabilities? One could say that students may not be very good at evaluating their own abilities, but the mcat would theoretically be the judge of that. Why the general discouragement of re-takes? Simply high-risk, low yield?

I've always been so curious about this line of thinking. We have post-bacs/SMP/grade replacements for GPA improvement. EC's can always be improved/expanded. The MCAT seems to be the odd one out - high pressure, do it right once or certain doors will slam shut and never open again.

@efle said it well, but from what I read, it is strongly recommended to take the MCAT only once because you can only take the boards and shelfs only once. Now granted, you can make a case that the boards/shelfs are different exams tested in different situations, but in the end, these exams are a one-shot deal. And so should be the MCAT.

Additionally, having multiple scores opens doors to various adcom interpretations, which are usually negative perceptions. For example, if an adcom has two applicants with one having only 517 and other having 505/508/517, the question would be: why should I accept the second applicant who took the exam three times to get 517 when I have another applicant (or really, an applicant field) who got a 517 in the first and only attempt?

Couple these reasons with the retake statistics where most people marginally improve/stay the same/do worse, and we have an overwhelming support for taking the exam only once and crushing it.
 
Alright I give up. The data is the data. Repeat testers do not perform tons better than their initial (scored) test. Might be a fun argument to be had regarding voiding, but it is moot, because we can already see in the data the effect you think they are warding off does not exist.
 
No it doesn't. AAMC can still grade your exam so you know where you stand and your performance on each section. I would like to know that...and would pay for that...even if I knew my score was already no good/unofficial.
Alright I give up. The data is the data. Repeat testers do not perform tons better than their initial (scored) test. Might be a fun argument to be had regarding voiding, but it is moot, because we can already see in the data the effect you think they are warding off does not exist.

yeah i really don't know how having prior knowledge on the real deal will help all that much in significantly improving on the retake.
 
Alright I give up. The data is the data. Repeat testers do not perform tons better than their initial (scored) test. .

No. You're misrepresenting your data. That data does not mean the advantage does not exist. It could be a result of many things: laziness on the 2nd attempt, not really focusing on your weakness, nervousness on having to do better on the 2nd attempt, eg. There are many reasons for your data...you cannot narrow it down to disprove my point. So please...stop quoting your data...it does not say what you think it says.
 
No. You're misrepresenting your data. That data does not mean the advantage does not exist. It could be a result of many things: laziness on the 2nd attempt, not really focusing on your weakness, nervousness on having to do better on the 2nd attempt, eg. There are many reasons for your data...you cannot narrow it down to disprove my point. So please...stop quoting your data...it does not say what you think it says.

so controlling for all those, you think it's easier for them to score extremely high on the retake ?
 
so controlling for all those, you think it's easier for them to score extremely high on the retake ?

If you messed up on a procedure...and I came back and told you what you did wrong and where you messed up...can you perform better the second time around? Maybe yes maybe no...it's up to you to take advantage of that information. It is an advantage nonetheless.
 
No. You're misrepresenting your data. That data does not mean the advantage does not exist. It could be a result of many things: laziness on the 2nd attempt, not really focusing on your weakness, nervousness on having to do better on the 2nd attempt, eg. There are many reasons for your data...you cannot narrow it down to disprove my point. So please...stop quoting your data...it does not say what you think it says.
Occam's razor -> that retakes are similar because there is no advantage imparted, not that an advantage is being offset by new disadvantages for nearly everyone sitting again. And for voiding, the obvious reason is that score dumps must be blinded or they'll be inundated with people unnecessarily taking the test over and over and over again instead of using their at-home official practice tests.

Like Lawper, agree to disagree (and no hard feelings - I hadn't seen anyone question the reason for blind voids before, fun to think about!)
 
Occam's razor -> that retakes are similar because there is no advantage imparted, not that an advantage is being offset by new disadvantages for nearly everyone sitting again. And for voiding, the obvious reason is that score dumps must be blinded or they'll be inundated with people unnecessarily taking the test over and over and over again instead of using their at-home official practice tests.

Like Lawper, agree to disagree (and no hard feelings - I hadn't seen anyone question the reason for blind voids before, fun to think about!)

Umm..no that's not how Occam's razor works. lol. There are many variables for your data. You just picked and chose the one that fit your argument. lol.

AAMC feels it's an advantage...and so do adcoms...they don't look favorably on multiple mcat retakes. that's all. The MCATs..your boards..these are one-shot deals like Lawper said in the other post. It was never an argument.

And for voiding, the obvious reason is that score dumps must be blinded or they'll be inundated with people unnecessarily taking the test over and over and over again instead of using their at-home official practice tests

ummm no...the exam costs like 350$+ each time...and why would AAMC feel inundated...it's bought and paid for...it's not like they're doing it for free...and everything is computerized. This makes no sense.
 
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Umm..no that's not how Occam's razor works. lol. There are many variables for your data. You just picked and chose the one that fit your argument. lol.

AAMC feels it's an advantage...and so do adcoms...they don't look favorably on multiple mcat retakes. that's all. It was never an argument.

ummm no...the exam costs like 350$+ each time...and why would AAMC feel inundated...it's bought and paid for...it's not like they're doing it for free...and everything is computerized. This makes no sense.

Not at all. No improvement in round 2 suggests no advantage from the first test. Having to insert something like retesters are more nervous now to offset their advantage is weak reasoning.

Of the many times I have seen admissions say a single score is best, I have never seen them say it is because they think the good performance on a retake comes from unfairly advantageous prior experience.

There are plenty of applicants in this process for whom $350 is not discouraging (just look at the crazy prep company package prices!). It's already currently true that it is expensive and computerized yet locations get booked fully months in advance, sometimes within a couple days of that date registration opening. It would def pose an issue if suddenly the typical well-funded study plan included a few MCAT administrations instead of a few timed practice exams.
 
Not at all. No improvement in round 2 suggests no advantage from the first test.

Nope..it does not say that. AAMC says there is an advantage...adcoms feel so as well.

There are plenty of applicants in this process for whom $350 is not discouraging (just look at the crazy prep company package prices!). It's already currently true that it is expensive and computerized yet locations get booked fully months in advance, sometimes within a couple days of that date registration opening. It would def pose an issue if suddenly the typical well-funded study plan included a few MCAT administrations instead of a few timed practice exams.

Now that's Occam's razor...lmao.
 
AAMC does not allow exams to be scored if they are voided. I already said this many times.
I just pointed out above a more likely reason for blinding score dumps.

Adcoms...you can google this yourself...this topic has been discussed before many times. Your buddy lawper even conceded these points in his posts above.
I've been around a while and always see the reasoning that it shows poor judgement to take such an important test underprepared, and to some it shows undesirable characteristics to gun for the top when you already have a good score. I have yet to see any adcom say that a retaken score improvement is unfair.
 
I just pointed out above a more likely reason for blinding score dumps.

Huh? How are you able to make this claim? at 350$ a pop...this isn't an issue.


I've been around a while and always see the reasoning that it shows poor judgement to take such an important test underprepared, and to some it shows undesirable characteristics to gun for the top when you already have a good score. I have yet to see any adcom say that a retaken score improvement is unfair.

It is unfair. Using two attempts to get a score isn't as good as first and only attempt. You won't ge that opportunity on your step exams. No way you can argue this. That's just life.
 
AAMC does not allow exams to be scored if they are voided. I already said this many times.

Adcoms...you can google this yourself...this topic has been discussed before many times. Your buddy lawper even conceded these points in his posts above.


Just want to clarify two points:

1. Taking the MCAT once and doing it well is the best option. I think here we can all agree.

2. In the event that the MCAT is retaken, making a very significant improvement (my example of 512 --> 526+) shows something else is playing a major role. Now I'm arguing the difference this large is due to innate reasoning ability + natural intelligence, but it seems you're emphasizing the role of prior familiarity with the real exam to be a significant contributory factor, since test takers can benefit heavily from prior knowledge to improve on the weaknesses.

I think the problem with that is... that's exactly the point of taking the practice tests and reviewing them thoroughly (including the AAMC tests). From the retake statistics that @efle has posted, it seems that even despite thorough studying + review, the differences in improvement with the retake are basically negligible, if not a slight positive or even a negative change.
 
Depends on your score breakdown.. its easier to go from a 512 with a low bio or low psych/soc section to a 516+ than to do that with a low verbal score.
 
Perhaps someone with more insight can chime in here...

From reading these threads, why is it that the logic regarding MCATs seem to run somewhat counterintuitive to certain "qualities" that medical schools look for?

Why does multiple retakes (assuming improvement in score) not show determinism or a commitment to excellence (why must this go to hubris)? I was also under the assumption that schools weigh your most recent score most heavily, but somehow there's also a great emphasis on doing well the very first time around?

Medical schools also like applicants to show resilience/overcoming various challenges. If someone improved dramatically from one sitting to the next, why would the first score matter so much? Or do adcoms generally view the first sitting as "most reflective of student's ability" and subsequent ones as "improving from experience" and/or "student got lucky"?

Is it more important to not re-take a perfectly "good" score or is it more important to have a score an applicant feels is reflective of their capabilities? One could say that students may not be very good at evaluating their own abilities, but the mcat would theoretically be the judge of that. Why the general discouragement of re-takes? Simply high-risk, low yield?

I've always been so curious about this line of thinking. We have post-bacs/SMP/grade replacements for GPA improvement. EC's can always be improved/expanded. The MCAT seems to be the odd one out - high pressure, do it right once or certain doors will slam shut and never open again.
The data on the MCATs predictive power on the ability to pass medical school I believe is for primary administrations only.
 
Huh? How are you able to make this claim? at 350$ a pop...this isn't an issue.




It is unfair. Using two attempts to get a score isn't as good as first and only attempt. You won't ge that opportunity on your step exams. No way you can argue this. That's just life.

You must harbor a very special disdain for the people who took the old MCAT after taking like 20 full length practice exams. I know you already said the testing conditions are "radically different" which might be true in the sense that the environment is different but the content and arrangement of the exam is the same as in a practice test. What else would practice tests exist for if not to practice.

I'm going to disagree with @efle. The argument about why voiding exists is not "fun", it is stupid. Voiding exists because sometimes **** can go wrong on test day or you can freak out because it is a high stress situation that can depend on many variables like the power going out, technical difficulties, and other variables that can affect people's performance differently. Voiding exists so that these people can have an out if they feel their performance was not going to be their best on test day and they understand that their score is very important. The reason you can't see your score is to prevent an advantage but not the exceedingly ridiculous one you made up with no evidence, it is to prevent rich applicants from, in situations where officia practice exams are scarce (such as the current MCAT ecosystem), using the void feature as a sort of Practise Exam plus.

The AAMC is not going out of their way to prevent people from scoring in the top percentiles. They are going out of their way to prevent people from abusing a system.

Also, your criticism of the AAMC data does not hold I think because the sample sizes for their statistics are so large random variation can probably be thrown out. It is far simpler, and yes it is Occam's razor, to make efle's claim that previous scores attempts do not significantly impact the magnitude of an applicant's retake score.

Another good place to look is what the AAMC has to say about how multiple mcats are considered. Remember the AAMC releases a report every year advising applicants on how to use MCAT data in admissions and they maintain a survey of adcoms to keep a finger on the pulse of what is actually going on.

If the claim you make is true -- a significant increase in score is not impressive given that another exam was already taken and scored prior to it and that presents a distinct advantage -- then we should expect adcoms to view very significant increases with indifference or scepticism.

From the AAMC MCAT FAQ:

How are multiple MCAT scores used?
According to a survey of medical school admissions officers, schools use multiple sets of MCAT scores in several ways:

  • Some schools weigh all sets of scores equally and note improvements.
  • Other schools consider only the most recent set of scores.
  • Still others take an average of all sets of scores.
  • Some schools use only the highest set of scores or the highest individual sections scores.

Yet we don't see that. Nowhere does it list the possibility of a second score somehow being worth less than the first. The reason SDN advises not to retake a good score is because it demonstrates a possible character flaw to some adcoms (ppl at Stritch probably wouldn't like it, Penn would probably be like "meh we get it dude you wanted to come here"). Multiple scores are either weighted equally, averaged together, or the highest is chosen. Adcoms do not discriminate based on which exam was first or second. Because that would be stupid.

So you can either continue on this absurd logic supported by nothing other than your own conviction or you can believe the far simpler explanation about voiding actually supported by multiple sources of data and consistent with the AAMCs voiding policy.
 
What if the subsection score for bio is a 126 for an overall of 512? Is it still not worth it to retake? A 512 can be made up of very different subscores
 
You must harbor a very special disdain for the people who took the old MCAT after taking like 20 full length practice exams. I know you already said the testing conditions are "radically different" which might be true in the sense that the environment is different but the content and arrangement of the exam is the same as in a practice test. What else would practice tests exist for if not to practice.

I'm going to disagree with @efle. The argument about why voiding exists is not "fun", it is stupid. Voiding exists because sometimes **** can go wrong on test day or you can freak out because it is a high stress situation that can depend on many variables like the power going out, technical difficulties, and other variables that can affect people's performance differently. Voiding exists so that these people can have an out if they feel their performance was not going to be their best on test day and they understand that their score is very important. The reason you can't see your score is to prevent an advantage but not the exceedingly ridiculous one you made up with no evidence, it is to prevent rich applicants from, in situations where officia practice exams are scarce (such as the current MCAT ecosystem), using the void feature as a sort of Practise Exam plus.

The AAMC is not going out of their way to prevent people from scoring in the top percentiles. They are going out of their way to prevent people from abusing a system.

Also, your criticism of the AAMC data does not hold I think because the sample sizes for their statistics are so large random variation can probably be thrown out. It is far simpler, and yes it is Occam's razor, to make efle's claim that previous scores attempts do not significantly impact the magnitude of an applicant's retake score.

Another good place to look is what the AAMC has to say about how multiple mcats are considered. Remember the AAMC releases a report every year advising applicants on how to use MCAT data in admissions and they maintain a survey of adcoms to keep a finger on the pulse of what is actually going on.

If the claim you make is true -- a significant increase in score is not impressive given that another exam was already taken and scored prior to it and that presents a distinct advantage -- then we should expect adcoms to view very significant increases with indifference or scepticism.

From the AAMC MCAT FAQ:

How are multiple MCAT scores used?
According to a survey of medical school admissions officers, schools use multiple sets of MCAT scores in several ways:

  • Some schools weigh all sets of scores equally and note improvements.
  • Other schools consider only the most recent set of scores.
  • Still others take an average of all sets of scores.
  • Some schools use only the highest set of scores or the highest individual sections scores.

Yet we don't see that. Nowhere does it list the possibility of a second score somehow being worth less than the first. The reason SDN advises not to retake a good score is because it demonstrates a possible character flaw to some adcoms (ppl at Stritch probably wouldn't like it, Penn would probably be like "meh we get it dude you wanted to come here"). Multiple scores are either weighted equally, averaged together, or the highest is chosen. Adcoms do not discriminate based on which exam was first or second. Because that would be stupid.

So you can either continue on this absurd logic supported by nothing other than your own conviction or you can believe the far simpler explanation about voiding actually supported by multiple sources of data and consistent with the AAMCs voiding policy.
I don't think I ever questioned why voiding exists as an option, only why the decision is kept blind to performance/score. Arrived at the same reason - you'd have tons of well off premeds in test centers taking essentially scored practice.

I guess we would disagree about whether the AAMC is trying to stop that because of minor advantage to the wealthy though. They do SELL their practice exams after all. And for someone that has had a few official practice exams under timed conditions I really don't think there is anything significant to be gained.
 
I don't think I ever questioned why voiding exists as an option, only why the decision is kept blind to performance/score. Arrived at the same reason - you'd have tons of well off premeds in test centers taking essentially scored practice.

I guess we would disagree about whether the AAMC is trying to stop that because of minor advantage to the wealthy though. They do SELL their practice exams after all. And for someone that has had a few official practice exams under timed conditions I really don't think there is anything significant to be gained.

I don't think the AAMC cares as much about a minor advantage to the wealthy as it does care about a bunch of people filling up valuable and limited MCAT seats planning to void from the get go.
 
There is a vast difference between going 90th->98th %ile, and going 90th->99.9th %ile. This applies to anything in life, really, not just the MCAT. Hard work can take you pretty far, but there comes a point where you will hit a wall if you don't have the innate ability to go with it. I studied my nuts off to score a 519 on the MCAT... With a little more diligence and a little more luck maybe I could have made a 520 or 521... But it would take years of work for me to maybe have a shot at gaining the ability to reliably score 526+, and most likely I would never be able to get there no matter how hard I tried.

Let me tell you a story:
In 2005, the 3rd trumpet slot in the New York Philharmonic becomes vacant. Spots in major orchestras like this only come open every ~10 years or so, so everyone and their mother applies. Around 1000 people send in recordings of themselves playing audition excerpts - most of these people are already professionals playing in other orchestras, are serious students, etc. The top ~100 of those people are invited to audition in person. The audition process narrows down the pool to 5 people, and then finally they pick a winner. Throughout this entire process the audition committee theoretically is blind and has no idea who is auditioning - recordings are heard anonymously, people play live from behind a screen, etc.

Fast forward ~2 years, and the 3rd trumpet slot in the Boston Symphony becomes vacant. Same story: 1000 people send in tapes, 100 people invited to live audition, 5 people make the finals. 3 of the 5 people who make the finals are the same people who made the finals of the NYP audition. The same guy who won the NYP audition, also wins the BSO audition.
 
I don't think the AAMC cares as much about a minor advantage to the wealthy as it does care about a bunch of people filling up valuable and limited MCAT seats planning to void from the get go.
Exact same conclusion
 
How does sitting for a test doing poorly have any different value than sitting for a AAMC practice test and doing poorly??

If anything, sitting for the actual thing is even less advantageous bc you don't know for sure what you got wrong and can't do as targeted review as necessary.

This is why I think it's pointless to even sit for the real thing if you can't score in your desired range for the test.

Sorry if this was already discusssed.
 
How does sitting for a test doing poorly have any different value than sitting for a AAMC practice test and doing poorly??
It doesn't

If anything, sitting for the actual thing is even less advantageous bc you don't know for sure what you got wrong and can't do as targeted review as necessary.
Apparently knowing your ballpark overall performance imparts enough advantage to catapult you way up on the retake. Except for the vast majority of cases, where something else negative cancels this benefit out.

This is why I think it's pointless to even sit for the real thing if you can't score in your desired range for the test.
Yeah but why would AAMC keep voided scores hidden unless it was extremely meaningful ?????//? Checkmate
 
It doesn't


Apparently knowing your ballpark overall performance imparts enough advantage to catapult you way up on the retake. Except for the vast majority of cases, where something else negative cancels this benefit out.


Yeah but why would AAMC keep voided scores hidden unless it was extremely meaningful ?????//? Checkmate
Lol....🤣
 
You must harbor a very special disdain for the people who took the old MCAT after taking like 20 full length practice exams.

Practice tests aren't the same as the real thing. There is no disdain. If people could sit for the real exam....void it...and know their performance...then they would. I would pay for that. I think this thread is full of people who have taken the real mcat several times and think that their repeat scores are as good as someone taking it on the first attempt. That is no true. The general consensus has been to only take your MCAT once...and crush it. Repeat scores are not looked upon favorably. If you took 2-3 attempts to get a 526....that's not impressive as someone who got that on the first try.
 
There is a vast difference between going 90th->98th %ile, and going 90th->99.9th %ile. This applies to anything in life, really, not just the MCAT. Hard work can take you pretty far, but there comes a point where you will hit a wall if you don't have the innate ability to go with it. .

I agree but that wasn't the argument. 526 was just used as an example. Someone scoring 526 with multiple attempts isn't as impressive as the one who did it on the first and only attempt. That' was my whole argument. These people seems to believe that taking the same exam multiple times does not confer any advantage. It does.
 
How does sitting for a test doing poorly have any different value than sitting for a AAMC practice test and doing poorly??

If anything, sitting for the actual thing is even less advantageous bc you don't know for sure what you got wrong and can't do as targeted review as necessary.

This is why I think it's pointless to even sit for the real thing if you can't score in your desired range for the test.

Sorry if this was already discusssed.

Because it's real testing environment. Practice exams do not simulate that. You cannot compare practice exams to the real thing. Plenty of people do well on practice exams and bomb the real thing. Even AAMC's own practice exams do not reflect the real feel of the actual exam and they have been criticized for it.
 
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I don't think the AAMC cares as much about a minor advantage to the wealthy as it does care about a bunch of people filling up valuable and limited MCAT seats planning to void from the get go.

That's not true at all...that's just your speculation. If you search on SDN...the reason people are not doing it now is because of cost and that schools can see that you've voided. It has nothing to do with limited spots. You don't have data to back your claim up...if the # of hypothetical exams scheduled would increase dramatically or not. Cost...time...and the fact that schools can see it now will offset much of that. If you do this..you don't want the schools to know...because obviously adcoms will see multiple attempts as being unfavorable.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/voiding-mcat-for-practice.1182497/

The fact that AAMC not only does not grade your voided exams BUT that schools can ssee your voided attempts is proof that AAMC takes this very seriously. They feel that it is an advantage.
 
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Exact same conclusion

LOL...that's a hypothetical conclusion and it's the wrong one. Considering that AAMC has allowed schools to see voided exams now....this means that they feel it is important for schools to see how many attempts an applicant made. Why would they do this? Duh.

If you messed up on a procedure...and I came back and told you what you did wrong and where you messed up...can you perform better the second time around? Maybe yes maybe no...it's up to you to take advantage of that information. It is an advantage nonetheless.
 
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Because it's real testing environment. Practice exams do not simulate that. You cannot compare practice exams to the real thing. Plenty of people do well on practice exams and bomb the real thing. Even AAMC's own practice exams do not reflect the real feel of the actual exam and they have been criticized for it.
Thats not even true lol. the people you're talking about are such a small minority. the times this happen are where students dont even attempt to simulate test conditions in their practice tests.

i do have some bias here. i didnt even sleep or eat for 24 hours before my test because of nerves. still scored exactly where my practice test predicted. you can even look at the data on that floating google doc and see how accurately practice tests predict real test performance.

you're the one who doesnt have the data to back up your claims lol
 
Thats not even true lol. the people you're talking about are such a small minority. the times this happen are where students dont even attempt to simulate test conditions in their practice tests.

Ummm you don't have data to back this up. Everythign you've said is stories about yourself...that's anecdotal...not data.

That google docs self-selects for people who do as expected...the ones that didn't do as good as their practice tests are not going to post on it. You do realize that right?
 
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Well if we look at the data we do have on the subject...

Oh hey look, having had a previous scored sitting doesn't predict a huge jump in round two. Yeah, I know, you'll deflect to the whole voiding thing. Going in circles at this point.
 
Well if we look at the data we do have on the subject...

Oh hey look, having had a previous scored sitting doesn't predict a huge jump in round two. Yeah, I know, you'll deflect to the whole voiding thing. Going in circles at this point.

If you messed up on a procedure...and I came back and told you what you did wrong and where you messed up...can you perform better the second time around? Maybe yes maybe no...it's up to you to take advantage of that information. It is an advantage nonetheless.

The advantage exists. Whether it shows up on the data or not that's different. There are many other variables for it. You data does not say what you think it says.
 
If you messed up on a procedure...and I came back and told you what you did wrong and where you messed up...can you perform better the second time around? Maybe yes maybe no...it's up to you to take advantage of that information. It is an advantage nonetheless.

The advantage exists. Whether it shows up on the data or not that's different. There are many other variables for it. You data does not say what you think it says.
If we had everyone repeat the procedure after feedback, and people performed the same the second time around, would you still think the feedback was doing wonders for people?
 
If we had everyone repeat the procedure after feedback, and people performed the same the second time around, would you still think the feedback was doing wonders for people?


AGAIN....We're not arguing whether you get the same results with feedback....I am arguing that the person with the feedback....has more information....and thus an advantage over someone who does not have feedback. Whether they choose to take advantage of that or not does not negate this fact.

Someone who takes the MCAT...2, 3, or 4 times...has an advantage. If they scored lower...it just means that they weren't able to capitalize on that....it does not mean the advantage didn't exist. Your data shows that most test takers are not able to capitalize on this advantage...that's all it can say. The advantage is still there.
 
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If your score is very unbalanced, I would retake. If not, pointless.
 
AGAIN....We're not arguing whether you get the same results with feedback....I am arguing that the person with the feedback....has more information....and thus an advantage over someone who does not have feedback. Whether they choose to take advantage of that or not does not negate this fact.

Someone who takes the MCAT...2, 3, or 4 times...has an advantage. If they scored lower...it just means that they weren't able to capitalize on that....it does not mean the advantage didn't exist. Your data shows that most test takers are not able to capitalize on this advantage...that's all it can say. The advantage is still there.
Then you're cherry picking one side of the crop. Whose not to say that those who take the test 2-3-4 times tend to be overconfident/poor judges of their abilities.

I'm not saying this to change the discussion. I'm saying this to demonstrate that grasping at some "advantage" that doesn't show itself in the data we have is no different than the millions of other factors we could pull out of a hat and claim have an impact on retesters.
 
Then you're cherry picking one side of the crop. Whose not to say that those who take the test 2-3-4 times tend to be overconfident/poor judges of their abilities.

I'm not saying this to change the discussion. I'm saying this to demonstrate that grasping at some "advantage" that doesn't show itself in the data we have is no different than the millions of other factors we could pull out of a hat and claim have an impact on retesters.

The difference is I am not using the data to negate someone's else argument. He was cherry-picking variables to negate my argument. He cited Occam's razor and then proceeded to cherry pick out explanations that were convenient for him. You should be posting this in response to his posts...not mine. I was merely pointing out the flaw of his derivation based on that data...which you have also pointed out. You cannot go around making those crazy extrapolations.
 
Why yea it is...that;s why AAMC doesn't score your exam if you void. That's to prevent this.lol.

If you void the exam, you don't know if you got a 495 or a 525. There is just no way to know. So that really gives you no significant insight into the exam other than as a chance to sit in front of a computer for a few hours. This just doesn't give you much help. How do you know that the second time you take it for a score is higher than your voided exam would be?
 
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