Review of University of Pennsylvania Dental School

[Gingival Groove]

Background- I am currently a 4th year finishing up in May. Everything written here is my opinion alone. Take out of it what you will.

Academics- 1st semester of 1st year, 2nd semester 2nd year, consists of basic sciences (biochem, anatomy, histology etc)and dentistry related courses(oral medicine, perio, endo etc)
Advantages- top notch academic curriculum. We have our own basic science building whose faculty teaches all our courses. Prepares you well for boards. Highlights are anatomy and pathology. Penn has one of the only oral medicine departments in the country. Faculty make sure that you learn how to handle medically complex cases and determine patient med consults, clearance etc. If you came to dental school but want to know more about medicine this will appeal to you.
Disadvantages- Scheduling of tests can be a beast. at least 1 test a week, sometimes 2-3. I hear other schools have a finals week and have all their tests at once, but I cannot comment on that. Complaints during 1st/2nd year usualy centered around this. IF you are a 'sprinter' and not a 'long distance runner' then this will suck for you. Curriculum can be too comprehensive. you will definitely learn more than you will likely ever need. Most of what I learned academically, I don't find useful at all in clinic. If you know you don't care about medically complex cases and you don't care to waste your time learning things you won't ever need to know, then this will be a big drawback for you.

Preclinic- 2nd semester 1st year, 1st semester 2nd year. A reduction in hours spent in preclinic recently, eg. morning you will be in preclinic lab, afternoon you will be assisting juniors/seniors doing real dental work in the clinic. (definitely an improvement over 8 hours spent in the dungeon)
advantages- Frankly speaking, none at all
Disadvantages- Disclaimer- I don't know what its like at other dental school but I have tried to isolate my comments only to things that seem particular to this school.
Old beaten down, crappy looking laboratory located in a dungeon like room in the basement with bars over the windows. No bright colors, rarely gets cleaned, not uncommon for people to come down with allergies to things growing down there. As it stands, I don't believe there are any plans to upgrade the preclinic.
Preclinic faculty vary greatly, most of them are old retired or foreign dentists who find themselves there, not for a love or patience for teaching. Most things related to technique or handskills I learned were from 3rd or 4th years. lectures are mainly regurgitated from Sturdevants operative dentistry book( worth a buy), they have been teaching these things for so long that its second nature to them and usually don't care to explain some of the finer points taken for granted.
This was the worst experience in dental school and probably in my entire life.

Clinic-
Advantages- good clinical faculty generally, a nice new honors clinic that students learn more advanced esthetic restorations(CADCAM, maryland bridges, different all ceramics etc.) Clinic split up into groups so that you have a consistent faculty overseeing long term procedures. Group leaders are usually highly knowledgeable and commonly are prosthodontists or perio prosthodontists. Have nearly all specialties represented in house, benefit from their knowledge base.
Endo program is internationally renowned, perio prosth turns out very knowledgeable practitioners.
Disadvantages- In the same building as the preclinic, less old and disgusting but still manages to be in rather poor repair. 3 different clinics- one large main clinic, 2 smaller clinics located in other parts of the building. I work in main clinic so I will speak mainly about that.
Main clinic is at least 100 years old and definitely looks the part. Ceiling tiles have large stains of mold growing on them. Lights look as if they are going to fall at any minute. Not uncommon for something on a chair to be broken(although improved lately). 2 xray machines for 50 some chairs.(probably common in dental school setting)
keystone mercy(main public dental insurance for pennsylvania) has taken a huge hit lately, and as a result we've taken a huge hit in not being able to provide patients with the care they need(end result being more extractions and dentures). We are on a points system('money') and are required to accrue a certain number of procedures in each category to graduate. bottom line is that its become harder for people to get to this number unless they get really lucky with their patients($$$$).
Because we have all specialties represented here, all proceudres not bread and butter dentistry is referred to them. If you want to be a super GP then this is not the place for you to be.

Administrative/support- this deserves a special mention, the various non dental people that work throughout the school.
Advantages- guys that work down in the lab who send out cases and do complete dentures in house. Usually they do good work and send out cases quickly and get cases back either early or on time. They are really helpful when you want to learn how to do surgical stents or flippers and are nice about it.
Disadvantages- Where to begin? There are a few good apples who make an effort to be cheery and helpful but to most of the staff you would think they were paying you for the privelege of being here. These staff are plainly rude, miserable, unhelpful, sometimes incompetent and give you attitude. (Again I don't know if this is the case with all dental schools) Reception staff are the leaders of the bunch; they are not only rude to students but rude to patients and mess up scheduling and procedure codes frequently.
Academic/clinical administration- Currently the school is in a tailspin, clinic is losing money daily due to bureaucratic inefficiencies and wastage of materials. Admin tries out new projects all the time, but clearly doesn't put much thought into execution. Patient charting is a frankenstein amalgamation of paper charts, dentrix electronic charts and an in house document system. Very intimidating to learn.(within the next few years this should become a lot better, they are in the process of digitalizing everything)

Student body- good people mostly, but we get our loupes and articulators stolen sometimes.

Philadelphia- Actually a great city if you love food. Standard for pubs to have micro brews or specialty beers. Bar food is pretty damn good and they are proud of it. Had the best burgers of my life here. Nightclub scene is rather insignificant, its mostly about pub crawling here. Downtown is a great place to be and live 3rd/4th year.(living in west philly for 4 years will drive you insane) Lots of fine arts, playhouses, indie theatres, great symphony etc. Lots of nice suburbs to live in if you want to commute, and also good neighborhoods.
Pretty much all areas in West/North philly except where Penn is, is pretty much the ghetto.

Bottom line- great medical/dental education(useful for oral medicine and probably oral surgery).
Somewhat weak patient base.
Penn has a residency fetish, at least 50% will go into residency of some kind(specialty or most commonly GPR/AEGD). In contrast to schools out west, faculty at Penn really does their best to let you know how little you know and that you NEED a GPR/AEGD to practice(may or may not be true, what they dont tell you is that most gaps in your knowledge can be improved by continuing education) Most people who come here are highly competitive and want to specialize, so if you dont want to specialize and want to enjoy your life DONT COME HERE.
also if you want to go west, Penn does not offer the WREB testing, only NERB.


I hope I covered enough, but its not everything, feel free to ask questions.

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[periopocket]

This is a great review...I wish more students would be willing to do this! Congrats on making it through!

 

[xbite]

Background- I am currently a 4th year finishing up in May. Everything written here is my opinion alone. Take out of it what you will.

Academics- 1st semester of 1st year, 2nd semester 2nd year, consists of basic sciences (biochem, anatomy, histology etc)and dentistry related courses(oral medicine, perio, endo etc)
Advantages- top notch academic curriculum. We have our own basic science building whose faculty teaches all our courses. Prepares you well for boards. Highlights are anatomy and pathology. Penn has one of the only oral medicine departments in the country. Faculty make sure that you learn how to handle medically complex cases and determine patient med consults, clearance etc. If you came to dental school but want to know more about medicine this will appeal to you.
Disadvantages- Scheduling of tests can be a beast. at least 1 test a week, sometimes 2-3. I hear other schools have a finals week and have all their tests at once, but I cannot comment on that. Complaints during 1st/2nd year usualy centered around this. IF you are a 'sprinter' and not a 'long distance runner' then this will suck for you. Curriculum can be too comprehensive. you will definitely learn more than you will likely ever need. Most of what I learned academically, I don't find useful at all in clinic. If you know you don't care about medically complex cases and you don't care to waste your time learning things you won't ever need to know, then this will be a big drawback for you.

Preclinic- 2nd semester 1st year, 1st semester 2nd year. A reduction in hours spent in preclinic recently, eg. morning you will be in preclinic lab, afternoon you will be assisting juniors/seniors doing real dental work in the clinic. (definitely an improvement over 8 hours spent in the dungeon)
advantages- Frankly speaking, none at all
Disadvantages- Disclaimer- I don't know what its like at other dental school but I have tried to isolate my comments only to things that seem particular to this school.
Old beaten down, crappy looking laboratory located in a dungeon like room in the basement with bars over the windows. No bright colors, rarely gets cleaned, not uncommon for people to come down with allergies to things growing down there. As it stands, I don't believe there are any plans to upgrade the preclinic.
Preclinic faculty vary greatly, most of them are old retired or foreign dentists who find themselves there, not for a love or patience for teaching. Most things related to technique or handskills I learned were from 3rd or 4th years. lectures are mainly regurgitated from Sturdevants operative dentistry book( worth a buy), they have been teaching these things for so long that its second nature to them and usually don't care to explain some of the finer points taken for granted.
This was the worst experience in dental school and probably in my entire life.

Clinic-
Advantages- good clinical faculty generally, a nice new honors clinic that students learn more advanced esthetic restorations(CADCAM, maryland bridges, different all ceramics etc.) Clinic split up into groups so that you have a consistent faculty overseeing long term procedures. Group leaders are usually highly knowledgeable and commonly are prosthodontists or perio prosthodontists. Have nearly all specialties represented in house, benefit from their knowledge base.
Endo program is internationally renowned, perio prosth turns out very knowledgeable practitioners.
Disadvantages- In the same building as the preclinic, less old and disgusting but still manages to be in rather poor repair. 3 different clinics- one large main clinic, 2 smaller clinics located in other parts of the building. I work in main clinic so I will speak mainly about that.
Main clinic is at least 100 years old and definitely looks the part. Ceiling tiles have large stains of mold growing on them. Lights look as if they are going to fall at any minute. Not uncommon for something on a chair to be broken(although improved lately). 2 xray machines for 50 some chairs.(probably common in dental school setting)
keystone mercy(main public dental insurance for pennsylvania) has taken a huge hit lately, and as a result we've taken a huge hit in not being able to provide patients with the care they need(end result being more extractions and dentures). We are on a points system('money') and are required to accrue a certain number of procedures in each category to graduate. bottom line is that its become harder for people to get to this number unless they get really lucky with their patients($$$$).
Because we have all specialties represented here, all proceudres not bread and butter dentistry is referred to them. If you want to be a super GP then this is not the place for you to be.

Administrative/support- this deserves a special mention, the various non dental people that work throughout the school.
Advantages- guys that work down in the lab who send out cases and do complete dentures in house. Usually they do good work and send out cases quickly and get cases back either early or on time. They are really helpful when you want to learn how to do surgical stents or flippers and are nice about it.
Disadvantages- Where to begin? There are a few good apples who make an effort to be cheery and helpful but to most of the staff you would think they were paying you for the privelege of being here. These staff are plainly rude, miserable, unhelpful, sometimes incompetent and give you attitude. (Again I don't know if this is the case with all dental schools) Reception staff are the leaders of the bunch; they are not only rude to students but rude to patients and mess up scheduling and procedure codes frequently.
Academic/clinical administration- Currently the school is in a tailspin, clinic is losing money daily due to bureaucratic inefficiencies and wastage of materials. Admin tries out new projects all the time, but clearly doesn't put much thought into execution. Patient charting is a frankenstein amalgamation of paper charts, dentrix electronic charts and an in house document system. Very intimidating to learn.(within the next few years this should become a lot better, they are in the process of digitalizing everything)

Student body- good people mostly, but we get our loupes and articulators stolen sometimes.

Philadelphia- Actually a great city if you love food. Standard for pubs to have micro brews or specialty beers. Bar food is pretty damn good and they are proud of it. Had the best burgers of my life here. Nightclub scene is rather insignificant, its mostly about pub crawling here. Downtown is a great place to be and live 3rd/4th year.(living in west philly for 4 years will drive you insane) Lots of fine arts, playhouses, indie theatres, great symphony etc. Lots of nice suburbs to live in if you want to commute, and also good neighborhoods.
Pretty much all areas in West/North philly except where Penn is, is pretty much the ghetto.

Bottom line- great medical/dental education(useful for oral medicine and probably oral surgery).
Somewhat weak patient base.
Penn has a residency fetish, at least 50% will go into residency of some kind(specialty or most commonly GPR/AEGD). In contrast to schools out west, faculty at Penn really does their best to let you know how little you know and that you NEED a GPR/AEGD to practice(may or may not be true, what they dont tell you is that most gaps in your knowledge can be improved by continuing education) Most people who come here are highly competitive and want to specialize, so if you dont want to specialize and want to enjoy your life DONT COME HERE.
also if you want to go west, Penn does not offer the WREB testing, only NERB.


I hope I covered enough, but its not everything, feel free to ask questions.

I think this is a pretty good, honest, comprehensive review of Penn Dental. Although, as a D1, I find that experiences between the classes (D1-D4) has been pretty different. There have been changes to the curriculum that the D4s/3s had to go through, and even the D2s, which have been improved for us. I can comment on the differences in my experience thus far:

Academics - Exam description - pretty spot on. I still think it's easier than block scheduling. It's challenging to keep up, but never overwhelming. You're always studying, but you have enough time to study. It's very comprehensive, and I often question whether or not I'll really need to know specifics of the heart and all this detail. I probably won't use it in practice...ever..but I'll know it for the boards. I've talked to academic affairs about this, and they told me that they teach to this level because a lot of our students go into hospital-based specialties/residencies, where we will be amongst medical professionals and need to know our stuff. Our residents have historically been reported to be very medically/dentally knowledgeable compared to those from other schools, so Penn doesn't want to change the curriculum, and just teach to the boards. I do like that they integrate medicine and dentistry into all of our core science classes. I'd rather learn more than less, I guess. Even though it makes studying a lot more miserable.

Pre-clinic aka The Dungeon - it is old and sometimes faulty. We get our issues fixed the day of or the next day, depending on the urgency of the matter. The plans to re-do/move the entire pre-clinical lab to 3rd floor Levy are underway. It won't be ready for my year or class of 2017, unfortunately. If you need to learn in a shiny lab with new toys, then Penn isn't for you. Faculty - awesome; I'd have to disagree and say that their strengths are actually passion for teaching. Patience is sometimes an issue because they expect a lot out of us right away. But for the most part, they really want us to do well. Some stay after hours to help us. It can be an awful experience for some because this stuff is new to us and it can get frustrating. Faculty can be tough with grading, but for good reason. They try to catch the stragglers early so they can get them the help they need. This has been a problem at other schools: they advance people into clinic, and they end up having higher failing rates on boards. DAU - this is where we assist juniors/seniors in clinic 2x/week; this program has come leaps and bounds compared to what the D3s and D4s - to an extent, even the D2s - experienced. It integrates you into the clinic and really shows you how things operate. Shows you what you need to get signed off, where to find everything, protocol, admissions, how to use annoying dentrix system. Even learning how to be an assistant and EFDA is pretty beneficial; early patient interaction helps us improve chairside manner and all that stuff.

Main clinic - It's older, and that's the first thing that is going to be renovated. Pretty sure that it's happening this summer. Staff - that might differ amongst the different groups. Mine has been very positive so far, and I have heard/seen complaints about this; however, I think it really does depend on personality. A lot of students don't say please, thank you, and are really impatient - for good reason -- but still, that's just asking for an unpleasant experience. I've heard the most frustrating part of the clinical experience are the requirements: we have a lot to complete before graduation. For example, Penn requires 15 root canals all done in the mouth on patients. Many schools only require 2 canals, and can be done tabletop on plastic teeth.

Student body - I think that differs from year to year. The D1 class, so far, has been awesome. We had 10 people leave out their frasaco jaws on the first day, and we all returned them. Our facebook group is always blowing up with 'I found a ___ in the lab, come get it from me' kind of posts. But, bottom line is to take care of your stuff, anywhere you go.

Licensing - WREB is offered in Philadelphia. You just have to take it at Temple.

Patient base - I'm not sure if that also depends on your group. I've heard Paletz group leaders are really good with getting patients. I'm in main, and all the juniors and seniors I've assisted so far said they, personally, aren't taking more patients because they're full and can't juggle anymore. You definitely have to be proactive about dealing with your Patient pool here. If patients keep cancelling, you have the freedom to excuse them from your service, and bring other patients on. My student dentist is pretty good with getting patients - she hands out business cards a lot, and gets a lot of referrals.

Specializing - I think dental students, in general, are competitive everywhere. Because we don't grade on a curve and people seem to go where the need to go, I don't find our atmosphere very competitive at all. Quite the opposite, actually. Again, this might differ from class to class. It's the schools where you have to fight for that top 5 spot, the schools where they grade everyone on a curve, etc., that you have to be a gunner. My class is really chill. If you want to treat your academic career as Pass/Fail here, you can do that. It's all up to you how seriously you want to take everything.

 

[Toofly01]

Wow- I've been wl'd at UPenn, but I have to say if I end up there, this was a fantastic review by op and update by xbite. Thank you guys so much!!

WIth the boards going p/f, how do you think it will affect specializing/specialization rates? Do you think at that point the name of the school matters even more? And how it would be at a p/f school (maybe tougher since they aren't graded)?

 

[gryffindor]

Your school charges an insane tuition yet the clinics look like they were built when Benjamin Franklin still lived in Philadelphia. Ever wonder where that money goes?

 

[reflection18]

Thank you so much for doing this!! You said there's at least 1 exam a week and sometimes 2-3? At my interview they gave us the impression that there would only be 1 exam a week at most, is that not true?

 

[UCSFx2017]

Awesome school but tuition is nuts! I really liked the school but not enough for the amount that I would be paying. I kind of thought that the estimated tuition hikes would be an overestimation but judging from their past tuition changes, it seems realistic. Maybe if we had been entering the golden age of dentistry (not leaving it), had the low Federal interest rates of the 90's/early-2000's, and were entering a bustling economy, the thought of taking an extra $200K in loans wouldn't have been that bad. Actually taking another $200K in loans still sounds pretty bad.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/2000.html

 

[Silent Cool]

Awesome school but tuition is nuts! I really liked the school but not enough for the amount that I would be paying. I kind of thought that the estimated tuition hikes would be an overestimation but judging from their past tuition changes, it seems realistic. Maybe if we had been entering the golden age of dentistry (not leaving it), had the low Federal interest rates of the 90's/early-2000's, and were entering a bustling economy, the thought of taking an extra $200K in loans wouldn't have been that bad. Actually taking another $200K in loans still sounds pretty bad.

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/2000.html

At 7.4% interest that is 500K flat.
Then specialize in Ortho at UPENN = 800K after interest. (this of course assumes you have NO undergrad loans )

 

[Gingival Groove]

Every specialty has a little bit different way they like to choose their residents but in general, LOR are the number 1 factor for most specialties, followed by academic rank and board scores(previously). I only know that oral surgery now makes candidates take the NBME which tests similar material to USMLE.

In terms of the name of the school, some residency programs favor certain schools that they've historically received good residents from. Ivy leagues tend to accept candidates in between them(lots of people from columbia went to residency here at penn and vice versa), also 'public ivys' such as UCSF and michigan.

I would go with a p/f school definitely. Class rank doesnt matter as much as it used to, we only rank top 10 but there are a lot more than 10 people who specialize.

Wow- I've been wl'd at UPenn, but I have to say if I end up there, this was a fantastic review by op and update by xbite. Thank you guys so much!!

WIth the boards going p/f, how do you think it will affect specializing/specialization rates? Do you think at that point the name of the school matters even more? And how it would be at a p/f school (maybe tougher since they aren't graded)?

 

[Gingival Groove]

Its an endless source of discussion for us. Among other things I would say bureaucratic inefficiency is prime, of which is there is plenty

Your school charges an insane tuition yet the clinics look like they were built when Benjamin Franklin still lived in Philadelphia. Ever wonder where that money goes?

 

[Mr. Thirsty]

This is an awesome post for future students. I think there should be a thread where everyone can make posts like this about their school. (Compiled similar to the "accepted class of 20XX" threads).




Just an idea.

 

[Cello]

More of these please.

 

[dmdluffy]

This is an awesome post for future students. I think there should be a thread where everyone can make posts like this about their school. (Compiled similar to the "accepted class of 20XX" threads).




Just an idea.

There is a thread kind of like that in the Dental Forums. Title is something along the lines of "Answer these questions about your dental school." It's stickied.

 

[Mr. Thirsty]

There is a thread kind of like that in the Dental Forums. Title is something along the lines of "Answer these questions about your dental school." It's stickied.

Yeah I remember seeing that. Its somewhat useful but some of the answers for some of the schools on that one are solely based on D1's experience. They also don't have a conversational "personal experience" flow to them like this post does, or a detailed review. I think a school specific sticky with a list of threads of personal experiences / reviews at each school (like this one) would be more beneficial for predents.

 

[dmdluffy]

Agreed, I think all your points are valid. It might be better to write up a new set of prompts than the ones currently used since they are a bit more superficial. Finding upper classmen to comment will be difficult regardless. You gotta figure the SDN population of dental school likely dwindles with each year of dental school. Ain't nobody got time for that!

 

[kmon]

Thanks for being completely honest and upfront in this review. While interviewing at different d schools I got so fed up with students who defended their schools to the death as if their school was perfect and sent from heaven. I think since they are paying so much tuition at their schools that they try to justify the expense by covering their eyes to any bad things that the schools have to offer. Once again thanks. There should be more reviews like this.

 

[Mr. Thirsty]

You gotta figure the SDN population of dental school likely dwindles with each year of dental school. Ain't nobody got time for that!

Yes, a very solid point!

 

[Toofly01]

Every specialty has a little bit different way they like to choose their residents but in general, LOR are the number 1 factor for most specialties, followed by academic rank and board scores(previously). I only know that oral surgery now makes candidates take the NBME which tests similar material to USMLE.

In terms of the name of the school, some residency programs favor certain schools that they've historically received good residents from. Ivy leagues tend to accept candidates in between them(lots of people from columbia went to residency here at penn and vice versa), also 'public ivys' such as UCSF and michigan.

I would go with a p/f school definitely. Class rank doesnt matter as much as it used to, we only rank top 10 but there are a lot more than 10 people who specialize.

Thank you for the info. Bolded- is this just at Penn or in general? And why?

And others, too: Is there anything that helps you justify the high price tag (besides name, prestige, or are those the 2 main factors)? Just wondering what your thought processes were. Thanks.

 

[UCSFx2017]

Thank you for the info. Bolded- is this just at Penn or in general? And why?

And others, too: Is there anything that helps you justify the high price tag (besides name, prestige, or are those the 2 main factors)? Just wondering what your thought processes were. Thanks.

They kind of have to come up with reasons to justify their decision otherwise they'd live a life of regret. Even if you end up deciding to choose the more expensive school, you'll ultimately figure out a way to justify your decision as part of your psyche's defensive mechanism. The same could be true for someone who ended up choosing the more affordable school but later wished they had chosen the more expensive school. They'll also have convince themselves that going to the more affordable school was worth not going to their school of best fit.

If I had gone to Penn, I would justify the hundreds of thousands of dollars by convincing myself that money isn't that important to me, that associating my identity to an Ivy League is significant, that specialization opportunity is made easier at Penn, and that heightening short-term pleasure is more important than holding off for long-term pleasure.

 

[Toofly01]

They kind of have to come up with reasons to justify their decision otherwise they'd live a life of regret. Even if you end up deciding to choose the more expensive school, you'll ultimately figure out a way to justify your decision as part of your psyche's defensive mechanism. The same could be true for someone who ended up choosing the more affordable school but later wished they had chosen the more expensive school. They'll also have convince themselves that going to the more affordable school was worth not going to their school of best fit.

If I had gone to Penn, I would justify the hundreds of thousands of dollars by convincing myself that money isn't that important to me, that associating my identity to an Ivy League is significant, that specialization opportunity is made easier at Penn, and that heightening short-term pleasure is more important than holding off for long-term pleasure.

All true. It's that last part I am going to have to reconcile with myself if Penn becomes a viable option.

 

[AllHasOne]

Really interesting, people should do this more often. Thanks for the information

 

[Shunwei]

Really interesting, people should do this more often. Thanks for the information

It would be if people were more open-minded about the info, both good and bad. I posted something similar about UCLA a while back and some pre-dents who got accepted and are going to UCLA tried to jump on me for giving information about "their" school that is not sugar-coated and did not respect the views/experiences of someone who's really been there and done it all. It really cuts down on my "willingness" to help the pre-dents.

 

[dmdluffy]

Thanks for being completely honest and upfront in this review. While interviewing at different d schools I got so fed up with students who defended their schools to the death as if their school was perfect and sent from heaven. I think since they are paying so much tuition at their schools that they try to justify the expense by covering their eyes to any bad things that the schools have to offer. Once again thanks. There should be more reviews like this.

For the most part, all dental students will gripe about the same thing regardless of the school. Certain dental schools will suck in one area more so than another school but all dental schools have issues. Really its about finding the one you can live with for four years or the one that sucks the least. I could bemoan every little thing that sucks to pre-dentals that interview or I could focus on the strengths of the program that might not be a strength elsewhere. I feel the latter is more useful personally.

 

[xbite]

They kind of have to come up with reasons to justify their decision otherwise they'd live a life of regret. Even if you end up deciding to choose the more expensive school, you'll ultimately figure out a way to justify your decision as part of your psyche's defensive mechanism. The same could be true for someone who ended up choosing the more affordable school but later wished they had chosen the more expensive school. They'll also have convince themselves that going to the more affordable school was worth not going to their school of best fit.

If I had gone to Penn, I would justify the hundreds of thousands of dollars by convincing myself that money isn't that important to me, that associating my identity to an Ivy League is significant, that specialization opportunity is made easier at Penn, and that heightening short-term pleasure is more important than holding off for long-term pleasure.

I think you also have to decide what you consider long and short-term pleasure. For some, they get their degrees and leave the school forever. And that's totally fine. For others, they stayed very much integrated with the school as an active alumnus. There is a good community atmosphere at some schools, and there is a strong sense of pride for one's alma mater. You become part of a network of alumni who will help you throughout your career. I'm super impressed with all the alumni from my school who come back to teach, lecture, donate, mentor, offer externships/internships, etc. I've been stopped twice in an airport and given business cards from alumni (they weren't even dental professions), simply because I was wearing my school sweatshirt. For some that's not important, for others its extremely important. I still have very strong ties with my undergrad, and at this rate, I'll probably maintain strong ties with my dental school and fellow alumni. For me, personally, dental school is very much a long-term thing.

 

[gryffindor]

I think you also have to decide what you consider long and short-term pleasure. For some, they get their degrees and leave the school forever. And that's totally fine. For others, they stayed very much integrated with the school as an active alumnus. There is a good community atmosphere at some schools, and there is a strong sense of pride for one's alma mater. You become part of a network of alumni who will help you throughout your career. I'm super impressed with all the alumni from my school who come back to teach, lecture, donate, mentor, offer externships/internships, etc. I've been stopped twice in an airport and given business cards from alumni (they weren't even dental professions), simply because I was wearing my school sweatshirt. For some that's not important, for others its extremely important. I still have very strong ties with my undergrad, and at this rate, I'll probably maintain strong ties with my dental school and fellow alumni. For me, personally, dental school is very much a long-term thing.

I hope you didn't borrow $400k for this feeling. Because the first thing your school is going to do when you graduate is call you up asking for a donation.

All that networking mumbo jumbo only applies if you are going to stay in academia. Which is fine. But it doesn't really translate if your ultimate goal is private practice. You set your own destiny in private practice.

 

[Gingival Groove]

At programs all over the country for most specialties, class rank is becoming less significant. This is because there are some schools that are purely p/f(columbia, possibly harvard?), and that at most dental schools a majority of the class attains a gpa that covers a very small spectrum(something like 3.2-4.0) with the highest ranking students ranked by gpa differences on the order of .01-.02. Thus, they have to by a different metric, specifically their peers(chair, faculty of your program). Thus, if you are buddies with the chair or other influential faculty at your school , you are pretty much guaranteed to get in somewhere(barring any significant screw ups)

For me, I started dental school wanting to specialize so I chose Penn(with its high price tag, higher now) because of their advertised high specialty rates. 4 years ago, the difference in price between penn and other private schools was not as pronounced as it is now, so I felt it was worth it. Adding in proximity to family, decent city and easy access to nyc, dc etc. I also thought that since it is the 2nd oldest school in the country, it would have a good established curriculum and teaching methodology.

For predents, it feels early but I would recommend that you begin to consider whether or not you'd like to specialize and whether you'd like to be a super GP or bread and butter GP who refers. Looking back, this is the biggest factor that should go into your choice of school. Every school has a different teaching methodology and its not always easy to discern this from your interviews. Talk with the students and ask them what their plans are after graduation. If you notice a lot of people specializing, then this is a school that gears people to specialize or become a bread and butter GP that refers cases out.(all Ivy leagues) If they are all going straight to work then it is a super GP school(UoP). See which schools students have thought processes similar to yours. That will be your school.

The other big factor is location. 4 years is a long time in dental school and you need distractions from dental school, otherwise you will seriously lose it. Make sure you actually like the city/town the school is in. Otherwise you will be miserable and your work will suffer.

Thank you for the info. Bolded- is this just at Penn or in general? And why?

And others, too: Is there anything that helps you justify the high price tag (besides name, prestige, or are those the 2 main factors)? Just wondering what your thought processes were. Thanks.

 

[Toofly01]

I read online that with the OS specialty creating its own exam, name perhaps matters less than before. Is the same true of any other specialty? Did ortho come up with their own exam (will they?) or are they employing the GRE? With the institution of this exam, does it negate, to an extent, the importance of class rank/name of dschool?

Thanks

 

[dental711]

At programs all over the country for most specialties, class rank is becoming less significant. This is because there are some schools that are purely p/f(columbia, possibly harvard?), and that at most dental schools a majority of the class attains a gpa that covers a very small spectrum(something like 3.2-4.0) with the highest ranking students ranked by gpa differences on the order of .01-.02. Thus, they have to by a different metric, specifically their peers(chair, faculty of your program). Thus, if you are buddies with the chair or other influential faculty at your school , you are pretty much guaranteed to get in somewhere(barring any significant screw ups)

For me, I started dental school wanting to specialize so I chose Penn(with its high price tag, higher now) because of their advertised high specialty rates. 4 years ago, the difference in price between penn and other private schools was not as pronounced as it is now, so I felt it was worth it. Adding in proximity to family, decent city and easy access to nyc, dc etc. I also thought that since it is the 2nd oldest school in the country, it would have a good established curriculum and teaching methodology.

For predents, it feels early but I would recommend that you begin to consider whether or not you'd like to specialize and whether you'd like to be a super GP or bread and butter GP who refers. Looking back, this is the biggest factor that should go into your choice of school. Every school has a different teaching methodology and its not always easy to discern this from your interviews. Talk with the students and ask them what their plans are after graduation. If you notice a lot of people specializing, then this is a school that gears people to specialize or become a bread and butter GP that refers cases out.(all Ivy leagues) If they are all going straight to work then it is a super GP school(UoP). See which schools students have thought processes similar to yours. That will be your school.

The other big factor is location. 4 years is a long time in dental school and you need distractions from dental school, otherwise you will seriously lose it. Make sure you actually like the city/town the school is in. Otherwise you will be miserable and your work will suffer.

Thanks for the great feedback. It makes one reconsider some aspects of their decision. Out of curiousity, do you not like Upenn or feel it was the best choice for you?

 

[dantemac]

I endorse this view as a current student.

The facilities that are 'like 100 years old" are actually 98 years old. Us D1s get to be here for the century-mark birthday party

 

[invictusx]

Nice to see the experiences of a D4 at Penn. I was granted an acceptance into Penn but turned them down for Columbia. For those interested in knowing, Columbia is actually H/P/F. There is a ranking system involved here. Top third gets honors, the rest passes. I'll post a more comprehensive review of Columbia when I have time (despite being a D1).

 

[Raphael1]

If you were to given an opportunity to choose again, would you choose Penn again???

 

[Toofly01]

if you were to given an opportunity to choose again, would you choose penn again???

+1

 

[Gingival Groove]

Sorry, hard to say. I probably would just choose to not go to dental school

But really, I have far from a complete idea of what it would be like to go to another dental school. Likely, you would probably be hearing a different set of gripes. Overall, I am satisfied with my education, I know that there is much more to learn, so I feel that Penn has set me up for continued learning.

This post really is just to let you know what to expect. I don't have any authority to say whether its better or worse than anything else out there. It's what I would have wished(a description of all the schools) when I was in your position .

If you were to given an opportunity to choose again, would you choose Penn again???

 

[Gingival Groove]

AS far as I know, ortho is still only having people take the GRE. I haven't heard of any plans for a special ortho test.

OS is now using NBME(USMLE mini) for their entrance exam. Basically it is the test med students use to practice for their licensing. What this boils down to is that dental students will have to learn most of the medical school curriculum and score around a 50-60 range to be competitive.(med students score higher so its a different standard). It does not negative the importance of class rank, they look at both in consideration.
NAme only matters if a certain program likes the school. Its unpredictable and I would not choose a school because it sounds more "prestigious"

This document is 3 years old now but should still be of interest to you: its a survey of all graduate programs and what they look for in a candidate

http://www2.zshares.net/80g6mvcgu1y0

I read online that with the OS specialty creating its own exam, name perhaps matters less than before. Is the same true of any other specialty? Did ortho come up with their own exam (will they?) or are they employing the GRE? With the institution of this exam, does it negate, to an extent, the importance of class rank/name of dschool?

Thanks

 

[dantemac]

I think that Penn offers a great education and great opportunities. There are many outlets to be successful here, both personally and professionally.

However, I really think it is okay to consider the price prohibitive. Don't come here for the name alone.