Rosalind Franklin

[Goro]

I'm a New Yorker. Therefore...

A) We don't bring knives to gunfights.
B) We treat intellectual debate as a blood sport.
C) We use the term "F you" as a greeting.
D) We do not suffer fools lightly.


And lastly, some people fail to live down sterotypes, other actually live up to them:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=feminazi

Applying "Ignore" function now. You'll feel a slight buzzing sensation.

And you see this as completely tantamount to using a nickname used to slander a female scientist within the past century? Regardless of the validity of changing names of aforementioned institutions, I believe your premise is built on a false equivalency. You appear more eager to attack the type of person you assume I am rather than consider any of my points. I bet if James Watson were reading this thread, he would take pride that his "Rosy Franklin" defamation continues to this day, regardless of the intentions of those who use it.

Obviously, there are many more important things on my plate. I really do not care about the personal attacks that ironically flood this thread. What is more important is that perhaps a few more people now know history of "Rosy" and its use to antagonize an impressive scientist. To me, it is a vestige/ artifact of a mysogynisic practice. To me, to use it in association with "Rosolind Franklin" is in poor taste. You are more than welcomed to disagree and use your freedom to use whatever language you like. I am kind of surprised the kind of backlash it got. Indeed, your very first post to me was a proud proclamation that you not only disagree, but you will continue to use Rosy to "annoy a SJW". Well, just take a look at all of the posts of this thread. Ask yourself: is it really me that is annoyed and short-tempered?

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[CerseiLannister]

I'm a New Yorker. Therefore...

A) We don't bring knives to gunfights.
B) We treat intellectual debate as a blood sport.
C) We use the term "F you" as a greeting.
D) We do not suffer fools lightly.

I am a fellow NYer, born and raised. Your style reminds me very much of that of Trump's.

 

[leonardoson]

I am a fellow NYer, born and raised. Your style reminds me very much of that of Trump's.

 

[leonardoson]

 

[db1300]

surely in response to goro's use of "feminazi", no?

regardless of anyone's desire to change their pov here, I like to pause during convos like this, imagine the ramifications that I'm completely wrong and the other person is right, regardless of the logic of my initial point (which I'd like to think is usually strongly present).

If we follow with @CerseiLannister, noting that defiantly or unknowingly using "Rosy" contributes to a legacy of sexism in medicine, consensus to not use the term once aware of it's history might help build a more equitable society moving forward, no matter how minutely. If she's ultimately wrong, and we stop using the term just because, the ramifications are what- spending .2 seconds of our life saying RF instead of Rosy? Generally finding yourself annoyed that you sided with SJWs for no reason?

Going with @Goro 's pov, if we rationalize that this entire convo is just a silly concern of millennials and keep using the term, either nothing will happen, or we'll continue to contribute to a legacy of sexism for the next generation of female scientists.

Personally, I prefer to err on the side of caution. Changing your language to "RF" or something similar from "Rosy" is only an issue if you make it one. Is it really such a hindrance to make this small change, such a win for the SJWs that we can't collectively decide that this is potentially an okay idea?

Final rant- many posts mention that @CerseiLannister is about to seriously struggle in residency because of her "thin-skinned"ness. Having worked with transgender populations, underserved Native populations, and others, I think most people would sincerely appreciate her commitment to inclusive language. I don't see the correlation between stopping to think about something (in her free time!) and ask a question/help educate others and some indication that she can't take feedback well or will somehow breakdown during residency.

 

[Lawpy]

I second this. Einstein's the most POPULAR scientist of all time.

Which is interesting because most people don't know Einstein's central equations in general relativity. Those stuff are covered only in graduate level physics.

 

[leonardoson]

Which is interesting because most people don't know Einstein's central equations in general relativity. Those stuff are covered only in graduate level physics.

But everyone can F=ma till their hearts content.

 

[Lawpy]

But everyone can F=ma till their hearts content.

So thus Newton >>>> Einstein

 

[leonardoson]

surely in response to goro's use of "feminazi", no?

regardless of anyone's desire to change their pov here, I like to pause during convos like this, imagine the ramifications that I'm completely wrong and the other person is right, regardless of the logic of my initial point (which I'd like to think is usually strongly present).

If we follow with @CerseiLannister, noting that defiantly or unknowingly using "Rosy" contributes to a legacy of sexism in medicine, consensus to not use the term once aware of it's history might help build a more equitable society moving forward, no matter how minutely. If she's ultimately wrong, and we stop using the term just because, the ramifications are what- spending .2 seconds of our life saying RF instead of Rosy? Generally finding yourself annoyed that you sided with SJWs for no reason?

Going with @Goro 's pov, if we rationalize that this entire convo is just a silly concern of millennials and keep using the term, either nothing will happen, or we'll continue to contribute to a legacy of sexism for the next generation of female scientists.

Personally, I prefer to err on the side of caution. Changing your language to "RF" or something similar from "Rosy" is only an issue if you make it one. Is it really such a hindrance to make this small change, such a win for the SJWs that we can't collectively decide that this is potentially an okay idea?

Final rant- many posts mention that @CerseiLannister is about to seriously struggle in residency because of her "thin-skinned"ness. Having worked with transgender populations, underserved Native populations, and others, I think most people would sincerely appreciate her commitment to inclusive language. I don't see the correlation between stopping to think about something (in her free time!) and ask a question/help educate others and some indication that she can't take feedback well or will somehow breakdown during residency.

no...

also good job at analyzing both sides. You did a great job at completely leaving bias out of your arguments.

 

[GinnyWeasley]

As someone who was bullied while growing up due to a stutter, I remember being told by teachers that I was thin-skinned and that I should get over it. @Goro it might be your opinion that Op is thin-skinned, but as someone who was told that while the bullying was nonstop and continuous, I'm disappointed.
When I had a fellow lab student or coworker that expresses they would like to be called they/them, obviously I don't understand much about gender neutral language, but I certainly would try my best to respect them, and not call them thin-skinned because they asked.

 

[leonardoson]

As someone who was bullied while growing up due to a stutter, I remember being told by teachers that I was thin-skinned and that I should get over it. @Goro it might be your opinion that Op is thin-skinned, but as someone who was told that while the bullying was nonstop and continuous, I'm disappointed.
When I had a fellow lab student or coworker that expresses they would like to be called they/them, obviously I don't understand much about gender neutral language, but I certainly would try my best to respect them, and not called them thin-skinned because they asked.

faulty comparison

 

[db1300]

no...

also good job at analyzing both sides. You did a great job at completely leaving bias out of your arguments.

The most personally beneficial conversations are the ones where I'm wrong. Educate me- do you feel I've misunderstood the ramifications of either argument?

 

[GinnyWeasley]

faulty comparison

I disagree. Calling someone thin-skinned, for most reasons is wrong. Having respect for women is not being thin skinned.

 

[leonardoson]

I disagree. Calling someone thin-skinned, for most reasons is wrong. Having respect for women is not being thin skinned.

Comparing the use of gender pronouns to someone's face and the use of Rosy as a shortened name of a medical school is a faulty comparison.

 

[CerseiLannister]

Comparing the use of gender pronouns to someone's face and the use of Rosy as a shortened name of a medical school is a faulty comparison.

I would agree with that. However, just because one is worse, it does not deligtimize the other. I still believe it is in poor taste to use "Rosy" in association with "Rosalind Franklin". It is a vestige/ artifact of a misogynistic practice used in academia.

 

[21Rush12]

I can't think of anything I give less of a s*** about than this complete non-issue.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I'm a New Yorker. Therefore...

A) We don't bring knives to gunfights.
B) We treat intellectual debate as a blood sport.
C) We use the term "F you" as a greeting.
D) We do not suffer fools lightly.


And lastly, some people fail to live down sterotypes, other actually live up to them:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=feminazi

Applying "Ignore" function now. You'll feel a slight buzzing sensation.

Never mind that Wikipedia says she didn't like being called Rosy because that was what her aunt was called...

 

[CerseiLannister]

You don't think a bunch of white men calling her Rosy (mainly behind her back) in an atagonistic way was not mysoginistic?

Also answer me this: why does Watson call Rosalind "Rosy" in his memoir and all the men by heir proper names ?

I thought we would all be able to agree on at least this much :/

 

[edgerock24]

You don't think a bunch of white men calling her Rosy (mainly behind her back) in an atagonistic way was not mysoginistic?

Also answer me this: why does Watson call Rosalind "Rosy" in his memoir and all the men by heir proper names ?

I thought we would all be able to agree on at least this much :/

Rosy Rosy Rosy Rosy Rosy Rosy.

Rosy.






Rosy.


Now, lets move on with our lives.

 

[peridotthecat]

Again with the straw man arguments!

"Rosy" is not a slur to a med school. That's the context in which we're using the term. I use the term Gtown as shorthand for Georgetown. Am I disrespecting the residents of that DC suburb?

Saying "Rosy" Franklin when referring to the scientist would be the same as saying "Tommy Jefferson" when referring to the president, or "Al Einstein" to the scientist. They simply weren't known as that.

Would it make you happy, when I recommend med schools, to use "Tommy J" when talking about Jefferson?

Ummm, everyone is clearly missing the most offensive part of this thread... Georgetown is IN DC. NOT a suburb. As a DC native, this is totally unforgivable

EDIT: Also, yes, please call Jefferson "Tommy J"

 

[Weirdy]

You don't think a bunch of white men calling her Rosy (mainly behind her back) in an atagonistic way was not mysoginistic?

Also answer me this: why does Watson call Rosalind "Rosy" in his memoir and all the men by heir proper names ?

I thought we would all be able to agree on at least this much :/

You are giving so much attention to an issue.......that was never an issue in the first place.

Concerning your original post, students who shorten it to "Rosy" do it out of convenience.

Regardless of historical context, the intent was not evil.

Grow up.

 

[CerseiLannister]

You are giving so much attention to an issue.......that was never an issue in the first place.

Concerning your original post, students who shorten it to "Rosy" do it out of convenience.

Regardless of historical context, the intent was not evil.

Grow up.

I've pointed out multiple multiple times that I don't think anyone's intent has been evil. I want to be clear on that.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

You don't think a bunch of white men calling her Rosy (mainly behind her back) in an atagonistic way was not mysoginistic?

Also answer me this: why does Watson call Rosalind "Rosy" in his memoir and all the men by heir proper names ?

I thought we would all be able to agree on at least this much :/

Why do you care so much? She's long since dead. You aren't hurting her feelings.

 

[leonardoson]

Why do you care so much? She's long since dead. You aren't hurting her feelings.

see the definition of "zealot"

 

[Weirdy]

I've pointed out multiple multiple times that I don't think anyone's intent has been evil. I want to be clear on that.

Then it should have been a non-issue.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You don't think a bunch of white men calling her Rosy (mainly behind her back) in an atagonistic way was not mysoginistic?

Also answer me this: why does Watson call Rosalind "Rosy" in his memoir and all the men by heir proper names ?

I thought we would all be able to agree on at least this much :/

I hope you are at least equally outraged when people use the terms "paddy wagon," "gyped," "hooligan," "eskimo," and "picnic."

 

[CerseiLannister]

Why do you care so much? She's long since dead. You aren't hurting her feelings.

This exact question was asked earlier. This is what I said:

"
Obviously, I am not looking out for Franklin's feelings because she is no longer around. Watson was criticized for his memoir not because he was personally offending Franklin (she died by this point), but because he was making mysogyny widely accessible. I think it is a legitimate point to say "Rosey" is a vestige/ artifact of mysogyny... and personally, because of its history, I have a difficult time disassociating the two when in reference to Franklin.

A possibly somewhat-decent analogy: let's say Jackie Robinson was given a derogatory nickname by his baseball peers at the time (Let's say Robin) to delegitimize his hard work because of the color of his skin. "Robin", in this hypothetical case in referring to this individual, was used in a racist manner. Now let's say a school was erected in his honor posthumously. Can you see how it can make one feel uneasy if someone were to refer to it as Robin Univeristy. "Why be offended? Jackie Robinson is long dead!" "

I have also pointed out from the very beginning of this discussion that I don't believe anyone's intent has been evil. I also don't think this is the absolute biggest deal in the world (honestly surprised by all the animosity). All I have said, and have been saying, is that it irks me to see "Rosy Franklin" used in lieu of "Rosalind Franklin" due to its history and what it represents. Fair enough? If you disagree, that's fine (why even post here if this is such a waste of time?). But, perhaps some here are glad they know about the legacy of the name "Rosy" and are happy they are no longer using it.

 

[db1300]

I hope you are at least equally outraged when people use the terms "paddy wagon," "gyped," "hooligan," "eskimo," and "picnic."

Just... for the record. I don't use any of the above except picnic, for which the origins as an offensive term have been rebuked (see on Snopes). I feel like your point is a good one, that the conversation is a larger one about the importance of language as a whole (and cross cutting social issues/reinforcing social oppression through language), though I'm guessing that's not the point you were trying to make. I do not find it remotely disruptive or difficult to not use offensive language in my speech- remember when "thats gay" was the phrase of choice for our generation? Before someone says "it's not the same" again, it's a larger point about language. It's just not that difficult to change, and seriously, being open to being wrong makes it easy to make this a non-issue (not you specifically, just as a population).

As a general rule, and if nothing else, asking people how they'd like to be addressed is common courtesy. Yes, Dr. Franklin is dead, but she never wanted to be called Rosy. Skipping any other implications re: language choice, I feel like that should be good enough for us.

Can we all collectively let this thread die now? #friyay

edit: how about Franklin med school? Rolls right off the tongue!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Just... for the record. I don't use any of the above except picnic, for which the origins as an offensive term have been rebuked (see on Snopes). I feel like your point is a good one, that the conversation is a larger one about the importance of language as a whole (and cross cutting social issues/reinforcing social oppression through language), though I'm guessing that's not the point you were trying to make. I do not find it remotely disruptive or difficult to not use offensive language in my speech- remember when "thats gay" was the phrase of choice for our generation? Before someone says "it's not the same" again, it's a larger point about language. It's just not that difficult to change, and seriously, being open to being wrong makes it easy to make this a non-issue (not you specifically, just as a population).

As a general rule, and if nothing else, asking people how they'd like to be addressed is common courtesy. Yes, Dr. Franklind is dead, but she never wanted to be called Rosy. Skipping any other implications re: language choice, I feel like that should be good enough for us.

Can we all collectively let this thread die now? #friyay

The point I was trying to make was that there are ethnic slurs used all the time about people who are still alive. Rather than getting so worked up over something that in no way affects the person it's about, maybe try to educate people on not ignorantly slandering people who actually may be affected.

 

[DokterMom]

Knowing, as we now do, that the term 'Rosy' was used intentionally to denigrate Dr. Franklin, doesn't it seem at least a little bit wrong to employ a term used to insult her for a school named to honor her?

 

[Setto]

This exact question was asked earlier. This is what I said:


"A possibly somewhat-decent analogy: let's say Jackie Robinson was given a derogatory nickname by his baseball peers at the time (Let's say Robin) to delegitimize his hard work because of the color of his skin. "Robin", in this hypothetical case in referring to this individual, was used in a racist manner. Now let's say a school was erected in his honor posthumously. Can you see how it can make one feel uneasy if someone were to refer to it as Robin Univeristy. "Why be offended? Jackie Robinson is long dead!" "

Please refer to him as Jack Roosevelt Robinson.

 

[Setto]

Knowing, as we now do, that the term 'Rosy' was used intentionally to denigrate Dr. Franklin, doesn't it seem at least a little bit wrong to now refer to a school named in her honor by a term used to insult her?

...Did you just repeat the OP?

 

[leonardoson]

Knowing, as we now do, that the term 'Rosy' was used intentionally to denigrate Dr. Franklin, doesn't it seem at least a little bit wrong to now refer to a school named in her honor by a term used to insult her?

We don't know that actually... nice try though

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Knowing, as we now do, that the term 'Rosy' was used intentionally to denigrate Dr. Franklin, doesn't it seem at least a little bit wrong to now refer to a school named in her honor by a term used to insult her?

Yeah, that I understand. I just don't see why OP is so butthurt over it.

 

[leonardoson]

I think for the sake of humanity, we can no longer give anyone nicknames of any kind if they don't like them

 

[Lost In Transcription]

We don't know that actually... nice try though

A quick Google search will confirm OP's statement that it was used in a derogatory context.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

I think for the sake of humanity, we can no longer give anyone nicknames of any kind if they don't like them

I'm watching the point fly right over your little, hot head.

Whoa! There it goes! Bye-bye, point!

That goes for the rest of the thread.
/

 

[leonardoson]

A quick Google search will confirm OP's statement that it was used in a derogatory context.

Oh I googled, and nothing lead me to believe it is because of sexism. Keep staying up a top your high horse of morality, you are better than all of us.

 

[DokterMom]

...Did you just repeat the OP?

Guess I did -- I think she has a valid point.

Yeah, that I understand. I just don't see why OP is so butthurt over it.

And just to clarify, it wasn't the OP who got 'butthurt' or antagonistic and/or went on the warpath about it.

Peace out --

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Guess I did -- I think she has a valid point.



And just to clarify, it wasn't the OP who got 'butthurt' or antagonistic and/or went on the warpath about it.

Peace out --

Uh, the OP brought the topic up and said in his very first post on this topic that it bothered and annoyed him, and he has persisted in trying to convince everyone ITT that it is mysogonistic. I also didn't say he was antagonistic, but nice try.

 

[candbgirl]

Okay- here's the solution: the name of the school
Is Chicago Medical School
at Rosalind Franklin University. So for those that are offended by Rosy just use CMS.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Chelsea FC]

Dam u all must be fun at bars.

 

[freak7]

Okay- here's the solution: the name of the school
Is Chicago Medical School
at Rosalind Franklin University. So for those that are offended by Rosy just use CMS.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Literally what's in my spreadsheet. I feel like the location of the school helps me more than the physician or scientist it's named after does.

 

[freak7]

Dam u all must be fun at bars.

I just drink at home to save money on bar tabs, cab rides, and the inevitable DUI attorney.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think for the sake of humanity, we can no longer give anyone nicknames of any kind if they don't like them

My call sign is "blanks" after my vasectomy. Had a buddy at my last command whose call sign was "half-sack" until they made us change it to "uno" because he only had one testicle (he had testicular cancer and had one removed). I've also had some nicknames I personally didn't care for that I won't post on here. You get over it.

 

[TXMED_1695]

One time my female professor called me, "Joshie." That's not my name, she was probably being sexist in some way. If I didn't like it, I probably should have sued the school.

 

[leonardoson]

I just drink at home to save money on bar tabs, cab rides, and the inevitable DUI attorney.

That's my kind of night. You want to drink at home while I drink at home? It will be fun

 

[freak7]

That's my kind of night. You want to drink at home while I drink at home? It will be fun

Tonight? Sure.

 

[cke11]

Guys please, I can't do it anymore. This thread has surpassed my expectations and now I very much enjoy the debauchery going on. I will now pay for you all to come out to CA and stay at my house.

@freak7 @leonardoson let's go to a bar, drinking at home is no fun. I'll pick up the first round.

 

[leonardoson]

Guys please, I can't do it anymore. This thread has surpassed my expectations and now I very much enjoy the debauchery going on. I will now pay for you all to come out to CA and stay at my house.

@freak7 @leonardoson let's go to a bar, drinking at home is no fun. I'll pick up the first round.

Can a bottle be apart of a round? Then can I take it home with me?