Salary???I dont even know where to begin...

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Docgeorge

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So starting this job hunting thing and totally overwhelmed...ya I know I still have a fellowship to do but I've already made some contacts...now I'm at a point in the talks where salary is starting to come up. Im doing employment model. The problem is that I dont know where to begin to find what the avg Trauma Surgery salary is...any help or suggestions during this whole process. Any help or suggestions from those who have gone through the process would be greatly appreciated.

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MGMA has data on this sort of thing. Does someone in your GME help ? We have someone help us with salary, contracts, etc.

I have a sense academic jobs are take what we offer or leave it. But I've only heard that. I took a PP job and didn't explore the academic route.
 
So starting this job hunting thing and totally overwhelmed...ya I know I still have a fellowship to do but I've already made some contacts...now I'm at a point in the talks where salary is starting to come up. Im doing employment model. The problem is that I dont know where to begin to find what the avg Trauma Surgery salary is...any help or suggestions during this whole process. Any help or suggestions from those who have gone through the process would be greatly appreciated.

There was an excellent article on this topic in JACS a couple years back. I remember thinking afterward that trauma surgeons get paid well and are in demand. Here's the link. If I get more time tomorrow, I can attach the PDF.
 
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feel free to contact me privately. I can tell you what I asked for as a new graduating vascular fellow. Don't believe the hype and aim high. I probably wouldn't ask for 500k if in a major city, but 350k and 100k signing bonus in pp is certainly not asking too much.
 
Trauma/Critical Care Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair

25th: 216 230 298 311 335 490

Median: 236 261 325 360 434 547

75th: 306 310 372 425 481 572

Mean: 286.7 274 335.2 371.9 414.4 539
 
In general, I am opposed to physicians being employed. No matter how much you are paid, if you are an employee then you are underpaid. Employees are hired to provide value (higher profit or lower expenses) to the firm. It only makes sense to have an employee if you pay them less than the amount they improve the bottom line.

However, being an employed trauma surgeon is a possible exception to the above. As we all know, reimbursement for trauma is poor because the patients are usually not insured. The hospitals have an advantage over physicians for getting paid because they are subsidized by the state and they have an army of paper pushers to get the patients signed up for Medicaid to recoup some of the cost of the expensive services they provide. They take that money they get from trauma services and use it to pay physicians to cover trauma call. The trauma groups then contract with the hospital to cover trauma 24/7 ($2M per year seems to be the going rate in my area). The hospital makes money and the doctors make money. The contract will change in subsequent years when one side stops making as much money or is making too much money in the eyes of the other side. Being employed by a group that provides trauma coverage to hospitals makes sense to me. It is shift work. I couldn't tell you how many shifts per month, etc. The surgeons get paid a salary and have benefits, vacation, etc. These trauma groups get paid 2 ways: 1) Per Diem from the hospital for covering trauma call 2) Billing for physician services. They are out-of-network for all insurances. For those who don't understand what this means, being out-of-network means you have no contract with the insurance companies and you generally collect what you bill. A rough estimate would be they get paid 5-10x what an in-network surgeon is paid for the same work. Insurance companies cannot deny out-of-network benefits for emergencies and all hospital visits that are initiated through the ER are considered emergent. In other words, they are paid very well for the few insured patients they care for. The group will usually employ several surgeons and they all rotate through different hospitals (remember, they get roughly $2M per hospital per year). The managing partner(s) hardly work at all. They pay the surgeons (employees) very well but take home the profit. They own the practice and call the shots and would rather sit on the beach in Hawaii than take care of trauma patients. Eventually, the surgeons doing the work will wise up and realize they don't need the managing partner and are being grossly underpaid. They can form their own group and negotiate a contract that cost the hospitals less. The managing partner(s) really functions as a broker and introduces unnecessary cost into the equation.

The take home message is this: Employment has some attractive qualities and makes sense for some people, but you must understand that you will be underpaid and all employees are expendable. Too many employed physicians do not realize the downside of employment until it is too late. Own your practice and you own your life.
 
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Trauma/Critical Care Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair

25th: 216 230 298 311 335 490

Median: 236 261 325 360 434 547

75th: 306 310 372 425 481 572

Mean: 286.7 274 335.2 371.9 414.4 539

I've never been able to find these numbers, but I would like to see what the 25th, 50th, and 75th percentile is for Colorectal surgeons in academics. Where can I find those stats?
 
Your department should have salary information from salary surveys like MGMA. The GME office is an excellent resource as they usually have this info too, or can direct you to its whereabouts.

Or you can just buy the reports from MGMA directly.
 
I got them from the AAMC
https://services.aamc.org/dsportal2...&appname=FSSREPORTS&frompermissionscheck=true
get the login from your institution

colorectal is not listed separately

they have gen surg, trauma, peds, surg onc, thoracic, prs, ortho, neurosurg, urology

I've tried to get them from the AAMC before as well, but I remember them wanting me to buy a $200+ publication from them in order to get it. I don't have a login. Would you be able to list the stats for general surgery? I think it would be relevant for the forum.
 
From the AAMC Careers in Medicine website

Low
(25th Percentile)
Median High
(75th Percentile)
Assistant Professor $210,000 $250,000 $308,000 Associate/Full Professor $264,000 $328,000 $411,000

Clinical Practice Low
(25th Percentile)
Median High
(75th Percentile)
Starting Salaries $250,000 $282,500 $318,750 1 - 2 Years in Specialty $239,908 $270,096 $360,000 All Physicians $277,619 $343,958 $433,121


edit: sorry the formatting got f'd up but you get the idea.
 
hey, if you don't mind, can you post ortho and urology? and ped surgery, if you have it? thanks so much.
 
Surgery

Total Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 70 235 293 310 365 504
Median: 187 300 371 406 469 625
75th: 304 400 486 527 600 796
Mean: 220.7 333.9 419.5 444.7 518.9 709.6


General Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 74 210 260 266 346 465
Median: 153 250 310 354 454 578
75th: 230 308 379 426 544 731
Mean: 165.4 266.6 327.3 362.6 450.7 583.3

Neurosurgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 66 336 380 371 462 635
Median: 100 408 475 502 568 726
75th: 227 543 607 652 666 976
Mean: 191.4 476.5 571.9 545.1 628.9 908.3

Orthopaedic Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 115 280 338 355 408 514
Median: 275 354 454 452 481 600
75th: 367 474 560 551 622 748
Mean: 308.8 396 483.9 474.9 533.9 670.9

Pediatric Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 284 346 410 440
Median: 331 400 531 535
75th: 423 483 581 612
Mean: 340.3 415.8 506.5 543.7

Plastic Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 139 226 277 336 352 517
Median: 350 269 357 450 506 668
75th: 445 379 460 572 631 1,151
Mean: 339.9 312.1 380.5 457.6 532 857.3

Surgical Oncology
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 209 211 238 262 300 521
Median: 244 236 300 322 395 604
75th: 336 277 400 426 456 798
Mean: 263.7 253.8 323.8 365 385.5 649.2

Thoracic & Cardiovascular Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 75 267 351 401 455 650
Median: 183 331 450 523 654 794
75th: 339 441 576 733 860 1,151
Mean: 224.8 366.2 486.2 597.2 727 1,045.30

Transplant Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 54 230 300 325 393 590
Median: 80 282 369 406 487 791
75th: 182 348 457 560 630 1,009
Mean: 126.5 299.1 382.9 456.2 536.7 914.9

Trauma/Critical Care Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 216 230 298 311 335 490
Median: 236 261 325 360 434 547
75th: 306 310 372 425 481 572
Mean: 286.7 274 335.2 371.9 414.4 539

Urology
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 65 222 285 303 377 424
Median: 88 270 337 373 453 517
75th: 150 334 410 449 582 624
Mean: 123 284.3 355.1 388 500.7 569.2

Vascular Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 296 235 292 306 322
Median: 351 274 365 374 405
75th: 386 330 469 447 461
Mean: 315.1 293.5 413.8 385 418.4

Other Surgery
Instructor Assistant Associate Professor Chief Chair
25th: 54 185 220 265 260 476
Median: 125 237 295 321 297 670
75th: 294 304 432 427 354 781
Mean: 176.9 253.4 370.4 363.6 339.4 635.3
 
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the Gen surg numbers dont seem right at all...the guys in town start out with a 325K signing guarantee. Cant get the numbers for trauma cuz they have a non disclose clause. But thanks for the replies. SLUser thanks for the link to the article...pulled those and a few more, they were helpfull. Gong to EAST meeting this week so I'll see if I can get some numbers from there.
 
these are only ACADEMIC salaries. Private will be higher
 
So starting this job hunting thing and totally overwhelmed...ya I know I still have a fellowship to do but I've already made some contacts...now I'm at a point in the talks where salary is starting to come up. Im doing employment model. The problem is that I dont know where to begin to find what the avg Trauma Surgery salary is...any help or suggestions during this whole process. Any help or suggestions from those who have gone through the process would be greatly appreciated.

Average trauma surgeon salary:
Mean: $430,302
Std Dev: $150,388
25th %ile: $348,868
Median: $408,588
75th %ile: $470,551
90th %ie: $572,546

Looks like you'll do all right.
 
Average trauma surgeon salary:
Mean: $430,302
Std Dev: $150,388
25th %ile: $348,868
Median: $408,588
75th %ile: $470,551
90th %ie: $572,546

Looks like you'll do all right.

thanks! got the source?
 
It's from MGMA.
 
In general, I am opposed to physicians being employed. No matter how much you are paid, if you are an employee then you are underpaid. Employees are hired to provide value (higher profit or lower expenses) to the firm. It only makes sense to have an employee if you pay them less than the amount they improve the bottom line.

However, being an employed trauma surgeon is a possible exception to the above. As we all know, reimbursement for trauma is poor because the patients are usually not insured. The hospitals have an advantage over physicians for getting paid because they are subsidized by the state and they have an army of paper pushers to get the patients signed up for Medicaid to recoup some of the cost of the expensive services they provide. They take that money they get from trauma services and use it to pay physicians to cover trauma call. The trauma groups then contract with the hospital to cover trauma 24/7 ($2M per year seems to be the going rate in my area). The hospital makes money and the doctors make money. The contract will change in subsequent years when one side stops making as much money or is making too much money in the eyes of the other side. Being employed by a group that provides trauma coverage to hospitals makes sense to me. It is shift work. I couldn't tell you how many shifts per month, etc. The surgeons get paid a salary and have benefits, vacation, etc. These trauma groups get paid 2 ways: 1) Per Diem from the hospital for covering trauma call 2) Billing for physician services. They are out-of-network for all insurances. For those who don't understand what this means, being out-of-network means you have no contract with the insurance companies and you generally collect what you bill. A rough estimate would be they get paid 5-10x what an in-network surgeon is paid for the same work. Insurance companies cannot deny out-of-network benefits for emergencies and all hospital visits that are initiated through the ER are considered emergent. In other words, they are paid very well for the few insured patients they care for. The group will usually employ several surgeons and they all rotate through different hospitals (remember, they get roughly $2M per hospital per year). The managing partner(s) hardly work at all. They pay the surgeons (employees) very well but take home the profit. They own the practice and call the shots and would rather sit on the beach in Hawaii than take care of trauma patients. Eventually, the surgeons doing the work will wise up and realize they don't need the managing partner and are being grossly underpaid. They can form their own group and negotiate a contract that cost the hospitals less. The managing partner(s) really functions as a broker and introduces unnecessary cost into the equation.

The take home message is this: Employment has some attractive qualities and makes sense for some people, but you must understand that you will be underpaid and all employees are expendable. Too many employed physicians do not realize the downside of employment until it is too late. Own your practice and you own your life.

I agree with you about owning your own practice and being your own master. What are your thoughts on opting out of Medicare/Insurance all together and billing patients directly?

I really am interested in not only owning my own practice but not accepting any insurance. I know this is tough and it will take time to get established before making a good income, but I really am determined to do it. I am simply sick of all the middle men (insurance, government, etc) that are interfering with healthcare and I want alltogether to avoid it from the very start (shortly after graduation).
 
I agree with you about owning your own practice and being your own master. What are your thoughts on opting out of Medicare/Insurance all together and billing patients directly?

I really am interested in not only owning my own practice but not accepting any insurance. I know this is tough and it will take time to get established before making a good income, but I really am determined to do it. I am simply sick of all the middle men (insurance, government, etc) that are interfering with healthcare and I want alltogether to avoid it from the very start (shortly after graduation).
I think that it would be very rare if not impossible to avoid taking insurance in surgery (outside of plastics). FP and IM can get away with this by providing more frequent and longer appointments. What are you going to offer as a surgeon? If you pay cash you'll spend at least four hours doing that hernia?
 
I agree with you about owning your own practice and being your own master. What are your thoughts on opting out of Medicare/Insurance all together and billing patients directly?

I really am interested in not only owning my own practice but not accepting any insurance. I know this is tough and it will take time to get established before making a good income, but I really am determined to do it. I am simply sick of all the middle men (insurance, government, etc) that are interfering with healthcare and I want alltogether to avoid it from the very start (shortly after graduation).

Yes, but where would you plan on practicing? what would be your niche? Is your goal to be in a solo?

It would be extremely difficult to have such a practice model in a saturated market.
In other words, the viability of such a model would depend on the your geographical location, and your competitors. Hence, you would have to be the only one or one of the few providing your services to have the luxury of turning away CMS (medicare, Medicaid) and insured patients. If one or two other guys providing those same services moved in your area, and accepted CMS patients, it would become extremely difficult to survive.

The plastics and dental guys can survive with such a model because enough of their competitors adhere to the no medicaid, medicare patients, plus insurance doesn't cover a lot of the cosmetic work they do. In the field of general surgery and its subspecialties it would be very unusual to find a geographical location where even few are refusing Medicaid, Medicare, or insured patients, also do not forget that increasing amount of surgeons are beginning to be employed by hospitals, this means your competition will extend beyond the other private practice groups, you'll be competing against hospitals who take any and all patients (one stop shops).

How do you plan on establishing your referral base? A lot of private practices make the mistake of thinking they can accept only insured patients and turn away all their medicaid and medicare patients. Any PCP out there would tell you that its one of the quickest ways to lose referrals, they want to know they can send all their patient to one practice and be covered. No one wants the headache of sending all the well insured patients to the practice across town and the non-insured or CMS patients to the other that accepts them. It is a lot more work for them. They want a one stop shop. Some of the groups make up for this by hiring new grads and exploiting them by funneling all their Medicare, Medicaid patients to them, while they take care of only the well-insured patients.

Now your model could work if you had a very specific niche that only you or a few can provide. For example, if you were the only vascular surgeon in your area doing peripheral endovascular work, and also did general surgery like most private practice vascular surgeons, it would be possible to refuse insurance, medicare and medicaid patients for that particular niche but still except insurance for procedures that your competitors can perform. Hence, you can compete with your competitors, and yet take full advantage of your expertise without losing referrals or upsetting PCPs.

Plus I'm not sure turning away insured and CMS patients would be a good idea financially for anyone even if you could maintain a practice despite doing so. You'd be better off hiring billing personel to deal with the headaches, the overhead you would accrue by doing this, will not even come close to the financial loses you would suffer if you opted out of insured and CMS patients.

Honestly, the list of reasons for which your model would be difficult to uphold can go on forever, there are plenty more reason which I simply don't have time to enumerate at this moment.

Maybe Fah-Q can continue.....
 
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I agree with you about owning your own practice and being your own master. What are your thoughts on opting out of Medicare/Insurance all together and billing patients directly?

I really am interested in not only owning my own practice but not accepting any insurance. I know this is tough and it will take time to get established before making a good income, but I really am determined to do it. I am simply sick of all the middle men (insurance, government, etc) that are interfering with healthcare and I want alltogether to avoid it from the very start (shortly after graduation).

Not realistic for any new grad in any specialty. Perhaps once you've estabilshed yourself, and only in a handful of specialties would this work (cosmetic plastics, spine).

After all, why would a patient go to you and pay 10x as much out of network? Very very few surgeons are that specialized and that good, and have patients with resources to pay.
 
I agree with you about owning your own practice and being your own master. What are your thoughts on opting out of Medicare/Insurance all together and billing patients directly?

I really am interested in not only owning my own practice but not accepting any insurance. I know this is tough and it will take time to get established before making a good income, but I really am determined to do it. I am simply sick of all the middle men (insurance, government, etc) that are interfering with healthcare and I want alltogether to avoid it from the very start (shortly after graduation).

Very possible. There is a big difference between taking no insurance and being out-of-network. Taking no insurance means you expect the patient to pay you cash up front and then get reimbursed by his/her insurance company. When you are out-of-network you are paid by the insurance company but you set your own prices and you have no contract with insurance company. You could start by just being on-call 24-7 at several hospitals and doing as many cases that come through the ER as you can. Cases that are admitted through the ER are considered emergent and the insurance companies will pay your fee, not the contracted rate they pay in-network surgeons. Some out-of-network surgeons in my area will charge and get paid $10K for an appy. If you can do 2-3 cases per week through the ER out-of-network then you will be making good money and not really working that hard. No reason to have an office or any employees so you would save a bundle on overhead. You could just sublease some office space for a half-day per week from another surgeon for follow-ups, suture removal, etc.

Opting out of Medicare is not something I know a whole lot about. I know it is a pain in the ass and would be very difficult if you were covering ER call.
 
Not realistic for any new grad in any specialty. Perhaps once you've established yourself, and only in a handful of specialties would this work (cosmetic plastics, spine).
After all, why would a patient go to you and pay 10x as much out of network? Very very few surgeons are that specialized and that good, and have patients with resources to pay.

Yes this is very true, but it will also depend on location and your specialty. There are rural areas of 200,000 + people for one endocrinologist, one derm, or one or two gastroenterologist where patients either have to be on a two month waiting list to see the said specialist, or travel 200 + miles out of town for an appointment in a near by city. These guys could basically decide to do away with medicare/medicaid and to only take insurance and probably still survive. However, this doesn't make as much sense as it once did, because insurance companies now mirror CMS reimbursement cuts unlike in the past when their reimbursements were higher than those of Medicaid, Medicare.

Furthermore, being that a large proportion of these rural areas are often overly populated by the Medicaid and Medicare patients, and by America's blue collar work forces which cannot afford to pay out of pocket, you'd be ridding yourself of headaches by accepting only cash on one hand, but on the other, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot by not taking advantage of a wide open market. Your yearly earnings would be unpredictable and somewhat volatile, as I suspect the success of your practice will probably suffer with every economic downturn.

The alternative would be to remain in or near a city where you may hope to find a higher population of white collar patients with higher means to pay the cash which you seek, however, the volatility will remain, and there will be 10 to 20 other doctors competing for the same patients, and if you end up a general surgeon or in one of the general surgery subspecialties (except for maybe plastics), about 99% will be accepting anything from insurance to Medicaid.

Insurance, Medicaid and Medicare patients are here to stay, if anything (IMHO), I envision a future where it will become even more difficult to maintain any sort of private practice model in any specialty (even plastics,ent, derm, spine, etc...). The average overhead for a surgical practice today is at about 65%, inflation isn't taking any prisoners, and last I checked, CMS was working on finalizing yet another cut in physician's reimbursements (while Medical school tuition increases with every pseudo-economic recession) and insurance companies are happy to follow.

As a non-trad and an ex-small business owner who has gone through a very similar phenomenon in a different field, I can tell you that the private practice Physician model is in danger of becoming a thing of the past and the small solo or 3 to 4 partner groups will encounter major difficulties, as it will become nearly impossible to keep up with overhead and still make a decent living, hence hospital employment. The 25 + doc groups will be better suited to remain profitable, but even they will take a major financial hit. The only way to get ahead as a resident if your goal is really to own your own practice is to be well educate as to the business side of Medicine: operation, service, Codes, overhead, contracts, Insurance and CMS game, turnover, taxes, location, RVUs, referrals, ..... etc........etc....

But noooo, these subjects are way too taboo to discuss openly, we are students or physicians in training, and are only to concern ourselves with patient care, compassion, and to spend all our days agonizing about anastomotic leaks :thumbup: while lawyers and politicians decide our fates.:D
 
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Insurance, Medicaid and Medicare patients are here to stay, if anything (IMHO), I envision a future where it will become even more difficult to maintain any sort of private practice model in any specialty (even plastics,ent, derm, spine, etc...). The average overhead for a surgical practice today is at about 65%, inflation isn't taking any prisoners, and last I checked, CMS was working on finalizing yet another cut in physician's reimbursements (while Medical school tuition increases with every pseudo-economic recession) and insurance companies are happy to follow.


This paper describes a vascular surgery practice doing a cost analysis and deciding to drop all insurance and medicare and become "out of network". It's an interesting and eye-opening read.
 
This paper describes a vascular surgery practice doing a cost analysis and deciding to drop all insurance and medicare and become "out of network". It's an interesting and eye-opening read.

Great article. Thank you for posting it. Very easy to understand, even for those of us (ie me) who can struggle with the business side of medicine.
 
This paper describes a vascular surgery practice doing a cost analysis and deciding to drop all insurance and medicare and become "out of network". It's an interesting and eye-opening read.

I second the comment above, it is indeed a "great article".However, I am afraid that this model will always remain the exception to the rule until we (present and future physicians) realize their intentions: To employ and micro-manage all physicians.

The physician of today has to be educated in ALL matters of healthcare, it is no longer enough to ravish in naivete. It amazes me that every hospital in my state can spend millions of dollars on sponge counting technology because some MBA decided that counting from 1 to a 100 in the OR is too great a task for healthcare personels. Yet they continue to refer to the sustainable growth rate (SGR) formula and cutting spending. We all know who is (or will be) paying for such technology.
 
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