StaviZFingerZ

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So in the interest of educating me, may I ask why, all else being equal,
I have never in my life dealt with 2 different candidates with "all else being equal." Usually one was better than the other one way or other but the grades were never ever in consideration. And if truly indeed all else were equal, I will take the better looking candidate...

you wouldn't look at someones grades in addition to their experience/personality? Does C = degree for you too?
I will look at experience and personality. But never grades as long as they're licensed. Yup C = PharmD. Grades just means better test taking skills... there are so many other important elements in hiring practic.

And that is why GPA is not listed on the resume. Now if you worked 30 hours per week while going to pharmacy school and made 4.0, congrats..either you're good at test taking or you never slept. But if you worked 8 hours every other week and made 4.0, it's really not that impressive. I'll hire the 2.5 person who's worked their ass off while going to school.
 
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I have never in my life dealt with 2 different candidates with "all else being equal." Usually one was better than the other one way or other but the grades were never ever in consideration. And if truly indeed all else were equal, I will take the better looking candidate...



I will look at experience and personality. But never grades as long as they're licensed. Yup C = PharmD. Grades just means better test taking skills... there are so many other important elements in hiring practic.

And that is why GPA is not listed on the resume. Now if you worked 30 hours per week while going to pharmacy school and made 4.0, congrats..either you're good at test taking or you never slept. But if you worked 8 hours every other week and made 4.0, it's really not that impressive. I'll hire the 2.5 person who's worked their ass off while going to school.
OK, thanks for clearing it up. Are you talking just retail?

I guess I view grades as part of a track record of success, which often implies future success. To me, it signifies someone who has the greater odds of making more correct decisions than wrong ones, be it a test question or anything else. This isn't one class or one test, but 3 years of measured performance. Obviously specific work experience plays a role, but if two people both have experience, and you have no inkling of their true moral compass, the one that knows how to answer questions on the material they were supposed to learn under the pressure of time is more impressive than the one who can't to most of the world, not sure why pharmacy is an exception but it is good to know.


And if I hear another "I'm just not a good test taker" or "some people are good test takers" line which seems fairly popular around here, I'm going to vomit. Just say "I'm not as smart at this topic as people who do better than me on this test" or "I get stressed out under pressure and should not be relied on in pressure situations" and take responsibility for yourself
 

StaviZFingerZ

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Nope. Not speaking of retail at all... as I'm not a retail person. I'm talking about hospital, clinical, management, and specialists.

Take this wisdom for what it's worth.

C students hire B students to manage A students..

Typically pharmacists and pharmacy students who "get it" aren't your bookworm 4.0 students... well rounded candidates are more appealing than your booksmart ones. When I was a 2nd or 3rd year intern, I used to review intern applications with my DOP. One dood proudly put his 4.0 GPA on the application.. The DOP tossed it and said this dood has no work experience in his life and won't want to work during finals...grades are too important for him. We didn't hire him.

BTW, over 90% of the crap you learn in pharmacy school won't mean much when you practice anyways.. If you're lucky, you'll learn what's important on the job.
 

MountainPharmD

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Compete for a job? Better for our patients? How so. I never knew that CVS hired people based on GPA.

On the other hand, I know at least 10 RPH fired in my region in the last year for things such as not verifying fast enough. I never knew that verifying 60 prescriptions in 60 mins while doing other things is a good thing for our patients.

The stupidity of current pharmacy students sometimes amazes me... another reason why I gave up a while ago.
I work at a store that averages 250 scripts a day. If you take the time we are open divided by the scripts we do every week then we have to verify a prescription every 2 minutes and 36 seconds. In this time we also have to answer the phone, counsel patients, do immunizations, manage the inventory, supervise technicians, deal with idiot store managers, deal with idiot customers, deal with boat loads of paper work, insurance audits, corporate audits, on and on and on.

I am quite sure CVS has fired pharmacists for not verifing fast enough. That is the way...verify as many scripts as you can as fast as you can for 14 hours straight everyday.
 

Sparda29

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Nope. Not speaking of retail at all... as I'm not a retail person. I'm talking about hospital, clinical, management, and specialists.

Take this wisdom for what it's worth.

C students hire B students to manage A students..

Typically pharmacists and pharmacy students who "get it" aren't your bookworm 4.0 students... well rounded candidates are more appealing than your booksmart ones. When I was a 2nd or 3rd year intern, I used to review intern applications with my DOP. One dood proudly put his 4.0 GPA on the application.. The DOP tossed it and said this dood has no work experience in his life and won't want to work during finals...grades are too important for him. We didn't hire him.

BTW, over 90% of the crap you learn in pharmacy school won't mean much when you practice anyways.. If you're lucky, you'll learn what's important on the job.
 
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WVUPharm2007

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C students hire B students to manage A students..
So does that make me President of the US? :confused:

Never did get a call from that dude, BTW. I think my resume got trashcanned. That market is very pick and choose, however. He prolly got resumes from 8 dudes with 20 years of experience...
 
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Stavi does the hiring, dude. Grades are grades. A lot of the kids in my class with perfect grades don't have a lot of work experience. You have to look at who's hiring you. I noticed the pharmacy director at my hospital is kind of the laid back, take a 35 minute rather than 30 minute lunch, wear jeans rather than khakis, go golfing type. He warms up to easy going rather than uptight folks...

So far I value my work experience over my education, which is sad considering I get paid to work!
 

StaviZFingerZ

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So does that make me President of the US? :confused:

Never did get a call from that dude, BTW. I think my resume got trashcanned. That market is very pick and choose, however. He prolly got resumes from 8 dudes with 20 years of experience...

That's because you're picky.

And your timing sucks. If you were licensed 4 months ago, you'd be working at a sweet little hospital with every 3rd weekend and a sweet little operation.
 

StaviZFingerZ

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Stavi does the hiring, dude. Grades are grades. A lot of the kids in my class with perfect grades don't have a lot of work experience. You have to look at who's hiring you. I noticed the pharmacy director at my hospital is kind of the laid back, take a 35 minute rather than 30 minute lunch, wear jeans rather than khakis, go golfing type. He warms up to easy going rather than uptight folks...

So far I value my work experience over my education, which is sad considering I get paid to work!

Don't get me wrong..if you can skip your classes...play a lot of golf..work a bunch of hours and get good grades, that's a plus. I'm sure there are DOPs out there now only looking at residency trained pharmacists and may want to know your grades...(I have not known any DOP to do that yet)..

I'll take a pharmacist who's willing to work and help out others any day.
 
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Nope. Not speaking of retail at all... as I'm not a retail person. I'm talking about hospital, clinical, management, and specialists.

Take this wisdom for what it's worth.

C students hire B students to manage A students..

Typically pharmacists and pharmacy students who "get it" aren't your bookworm 4.0 students... well rounded candidates are more appealing than your booksmart ones. When I was a 2nd or 3rd year intern, I used to review intern applications with my DOP. One dood proudly put his 4.0 GPA on the application.. The DOP tossed it and said this dood has no work experience in his life and won't want to work during finals...grades are too important for him. We didn't hire him.

BTW, over 90% of the crap you learn in pharmacy school won't mean much when you practice anyways.. If you're lucky, you'll learn what's important on the job.
Amusing the stigma associated with a "bookworm 4.0", I will have to get down to a B+ on purpose in some class I guess :D

I've met more than a few people with 4.0's who were the farthest thing from bookworms, you could figure this out within minutes of meeting them and they were clearly exceptional in many aspects besides the academically measurable ones.

Would you be able to speak as to whether those in charge of hiring for industry fellowships, for example, share this same recruiting philosophy?

C students hire B students to manage A students..
Well, the C student who gets themselves into a position to be hiring people is there because they are not the average C student. Most C students are just average. Try getting hired for a 1st job post graduation with a C GPA in a field other than pharmacy and see how that works out for you.
 

WVUPharm2007

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That's because you're picky.

And your timing sucks. If you were licensed 4 months ago, you'd be working at a sweet little hospital with every 3rd weekend and a sweet little operation.
I can't help timing.

And I am picky.

And I do wish I had that job.

But oh-f'ing-well.

I might send in my fingerprint card and get TX licensure just for the hell of it.

If all else fails, I'll go do a fellowship (psssh, residencies are for losers...) Though the fellowship hiring types don't like people like me without sparkling CVs and a certain pedigree. My CV is about 20 words long and my pedigree is that of a mutt so crossbred you can't tell if its a poodle or a pit bull. So maybe I won't.

All I know is that I'm getting the heck out of WV ASAHP come this July. Finally, I'm free. FREE!!!!

Anybody else out there want to hire me? I'll go anywhere interesting.
 

StaviZFingerZ

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I've met more than a few people with 4.0's who were the farthest thing from bookworms, you could figure this out within minutes of meeting them and they were clearly exceptional in many aspects besides the academically measurable ones.
And they're attractive not because of their grades.

Would you be able to speak as to whether those in charge of hiring for industry fellowships, for example, share this same recruiting philosophy?
Nope. But many pharmacists with industry experience are coming back to acute care because of layoffs. I just hired a staff pharmacist who was a MSL for a major Pharma ID group.



Well, the C student who gets themselves into a position to be hiring people is there because they are not the average C student. Most C students are just average. Try getting hired for a 1st job post graduation with a C GPA in a field other than pharmacy and see how that works out for you.
No no... Many successful business are started by your average students..who hire skilled managers who were B students...in turn those managers hire bookworm PhD researchers and slave them.
 

WVUPharm2007

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Well, the C student who gets themselves into a position to be hiring people is there because they are not the average C student. Most C students are just average. Try getting hired for a 1st job post graduation with a C GPA in a field other than pharmacy and see how that works out for you.
With grade inflation, C students are below average.

The flaw in your thinking is that taking tests in school prepare you for success in the real world. School is an exercise in jumping through hoops. Endless hoops. The problem is that many people study with a focus on testing rather than studying with a focus on future retention and application. Professors like to test on random factoids. I recall things like "What is the incidence of such and such disease in such and such patients" being on tests. I didn't care...and I had no reason to care...so I didn't spend much time focusing on crap like that. Yet, because its an easy question to ask, it would invariably appear on a test. It's a fact that DOES NOT MATTER. Unless you want to get into public health. Which your probably don't.

Critical thought isn't tested as much. That's what's important. And, honestly, there isn't a great test for such a thing out of school.
 
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With grade inflation, C students are below average.

The flaw in your thinking is that taking tests in school prepare you for success in the real world. School is an exercise in jumping through hoops. Endless hoops. The problem is that many people study with a focus on testing rather than studying with a focus on future retention and application. Professors like to test on random factoids. I recall things like "What is the incidence of such and such disease in such and such patients" being on tests. I didn't care...and I had no reason to care...so I didn't spend much time focusing on crap like that. Yet, because its an easy question to ask, it would invariably appear on a test. It's a fact that DOES NOT MATTER. Unless you want to get into public health. Which your probably don't.

Critical thought isn't tested as much. That's what's important. And, honestly, there isn't a great test for such a thing out of school.
That's not my thinking. My thinking is that in school you have a job to do within a system and grades demonstrate an ability to do that job. When you graduate, you will have to perform another job inside a new system, and my thinking is the person who did it before has better odds of being able to do it again. The guy with the 4.0 might not care about his grades so much he won't work during test week, maybe he just wants to show you he can do the job he was tasked with better than anyone else, you know, pride, work ethic, not letting yourself underachieve, etc.

Anyway, I think we both understand both sides of it and I appreciate the perspective you guys have provided. I don't think I am out of my mind for thinking this way but evidently my logic here is incorrect as shown by your and staviz' experiences
 

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maybe you are not familiar with the idea of supply and demand. why pay 1 pharmacist 100k when in a saturated market where people can't find jobs, you can lowball 2 of them for 70k and get 2 pharmacists for 140k? Even better drop salaries a few times and then get 2 for cheaper than that.

A surplus is a BAD thing for the worker BUT GREAT FOR CORPORATE because they can abuse workers and know that the workers will deal with it because there isnt another option out there.

I should point out that I did not say anything better grades making people better candidates. Schools vary in difficulty and material that is tested on, so it really isn't possible to compare GPAs of students from different schools. Also, I am very much aware that the material on many of the tests is absolutely useless details that can be looked up if you know you have to look it up. I do think that grades on rotations that are related to the area a student wants to practice in should be indicative of their ability to perform in that area. This really can be limited though, so it really isn't that helpful.

I have 8 years of experience in pharmacies as a tech and an intern, both in independent and in 2 different chains. I am in no way saying that I know what it is like to be a pharmacist, but I do have an idea of what it might take to be a retail pharmacist. A lot of that isn't grades. It is the ability to handle pressure, to communicate effectively, to work with different types of people, etc. And now that there isn't such a shortage, retail pharmacies will not have to hire pharmacists that cannot communicate with anyone. The same goes for other areas of pharmacy. Those who are hiring can pick and choose the types of candidates that are best for their area. This may require networking skills. This may involve communication skills. This may require straight application of ridiculous details from school. Whatever it is, those doing the hiring can hire someone more qualified/more fit for the job. And students should hopefully work harder to develop into good candidates for their areas of interest.
 
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aboveliquidice

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I can't help timing.

And I am picky.

And I do wish I had that job.

But oh-f'ing-well.

I might send in my fingerprint card and get TX licensure just for the hell of it.

If all else fails, I'll go do a fellowship (psssh, residencies are for losers...) Though the fellowship hiring types don't like people like me without sparkling CVs and a certain pedigree. My CV is about 20 words long and my pedigree is that of a mutt so crossbred you can't tell if its a poodle or a pit bull. So maybe I won't.

All I know is that I'm getting the heck out of WV ASAHP come this July. Finally, I'm free. FREE!!!!

Anybody else out there want to hire me? I'll go anywhere interesting.
I need someone to Dog sit for the fam... (3) wild Shih tzus... I pay in BBQ

On a side note - Should I give up on this whole residency thing and just do a PharmD + MBA? Discuss:
 

Jetninjin

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On a side note - Should I give up on this whole residency thing and just do a PharmD + MBA? Discuss:
Nahhh. As you yourself pointed out trying to discourage people on another thread just the other day from this exact PharmD/MBA idea, there is only one study that shows that it's beneficial. And it's a bad study that shouldn't be cited because it was a small sample size. And the person who posted it should be ashamed of themselves. And that questions about degrees should be directed to the pre-pharm forum or Google.

A cynic might have a few choice words for ya there.
 

aboveliquidice

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Nahhh. As you yourself pointed out trying to discourage people on another thread just the other day from this exact PharmD/MBA idea, there is only one study that shows that it's beneficial. And it's a bad study that shouldn't be cited because it was a small sample size. And the person who posted it should be ashamed of themselves. And that questions about degrees should be directed to the pre-pharm forum or Google.

A cynic might have a few choice words for ya there.
I never said you (or anyone else) should feel ashamed - if I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.
 

Aznfarmerboi

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I work at a store that averages 250 scripts a day. If you take the time we are open divided by the scripts we do every week then we have to verify a prescription every 2 minutes and 36 seconds. In this time we also have to answer the phone, counsel patients, do immunizations, manage the inventory, supervise technicians, deal with idiot store managers, deal with idiot customers, deal with boat loads of paper work, insurance audits, corporate audits, on and on and on.

I am quite sure CVS has fired pharmacists for not verifing fast enough. That is the way...verify as many scripts as you can as fast as you can for 14 hours straight everyday.
Actually this was part in reference to Walgreens "Power". CVS is fair for the most part but I do know some pharmacy supervisors with an attitude of, if you cant do it... I am sure I will find somebody who can. With that said, I agree with Old timer that your experience depends on your boss. I have an awesome one so I am not complaining.
 

grizzlesgrizzlies

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I'm pretty much set on moving to Texas. My mom is the biggest problem though for moving. She says that I have to stay in the same city as her, my response is for her to move to Texas with me. (Indian parents DO NOT LET GO, EVER. My mom, my grandparents and my aunt and uncles all live within a 20 mile radius of each other.)

What I love about Texas:

Salary is pretty much the same as NYC. 5 bedroom house with 2+ acres of land, easily under 300K. Speed limit is 80 (awesome), gun laws are very lax (awesome), and the best part, Castle Law (your house is your castle, you can do whatever the **** you want to an intruder).

However, I will miss being able to go to a Mets game or Jets game on a whim, and I will miss the snowy weather. (I guess I could drive to Colorado if I wanna go skiing or whatnot.)
having moved to TX (Houston) recently after being raised in new jersey, here are my observations:

-The part about housing is very true, you do get a lot of house for your money. however, Harris county property taxes are high (~$5000 a year for a 200k house), which kinda offsets the lack of state income tax, but not having state income tax is pretty awesome

-Speed limit for some of the freeways here are as low as 60mph... unlike back east, most people usually drive within or big above the speed limit (from my experience) not many people drive 80-85 and swerve between lanes like many do on the garden state parkway...

-Weather: its early may and its already like 90 degree highs during the day, imagine the heat waves that you get in nyc about 4 to 5 days per summer? thats pretty much what the temperature is like down here for 3 straight months every year. the winters are awesome here though.
 

Sparda29

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-Speed limit for some of the freeways here are as low as 60mph... unlike back east, most people usually drive within or big above the speed limit (from my experience) not many people drive 80-85 and swerve between lanes like many do on the garden state parkway...
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8UAvf3xX0o[/YOUTUBE]

I'm guessing there's not much of this happening in Texas or the roads are big enough so you don't have to drive like this?
 

Aznfarmerboi

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having moved to TX (Houston) recently after being raised in new jersey, here are my observations:

-The part about housing is very true, you do get a lot of house for your money. however, Harris county property taxes are high (~$5000 a year for a 200k house), which kinda offsets the lack of state income tax, but not having state income tax is pretty awesome

-Speed limit for some of the freeways here are as low as 60mph... unlike back east, most people usually drive within or big above the speed limit (from my experience) not many people drive 80-85 and swerve between lanes like many do on the garden state parkway...

-Weather: its early may and its already like 90 degree highs during the day, imagine the heat waves that you get in nyc about 4 to 5 days per summer? thats pretty much what the temperature is like down here for 3 straight months every year. the winters are awesome here though.
I'll die driving 60mph... from falling asleep. In NYC, if you drive 60 mph, you will get honked at! The rule of thumb is drive less than 20mph of posted speed limit in NYS/NJ. Of course in crappier weathers... or in school districts, or in towns where they are cash strapped...
 

Ackj

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You bumped a 4 year old thread to post a picture and not even quote whatever it's in response to?
Notice all the old threads bumped? Notice who has bumped every single one?
 
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It's terrible.
 
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pharmalt82

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If you have been a decent intern for any of the major chains in or near the Five Boroughs, you will get a job.
What happens next is the real issue.
Chains in "The New York Metropolitan Area" now follow a simple process.
Step 1: Over-hire from your own batch of interns.
Step 2: Send these floaters on long commutes, even when other floaters closer to the target stores are available.
Step 3: Display outright bias in scheduling for time-off for staff pharmacists and floaters. Send your favorites to "easy" stores.
Step 4: Make the floaters work eccentric shifts. Example: 2 hour single-direction commute to an evening/late shift today followed by a morning shift the next day at the same store or another store equally far away. Another Example: Random night shift scheduled in the day after and/or before a regular day shift. This means that you work 18 hours in a 24 hour period. You'll be lucky if you catch an hour of sleep. Oh, and you'll be back to your regular floater shifts without any recovery time. And no, you will not get any overtime pay for this. You are a god who needs no sleep.
Step 5: Make the store managers demand the same level of work from the floaters as they demand from staff pharmacists, regardless of what the floater has been through. What have these floaters been through? See Step 4 for examples.
Step 6: Have completely out-of-touch schedulers, DMs, and HR staff that will ignore the floaters' requests even after they have been doing every ridiculous asked of them for over 2 years, without a complaint. Turn these floaters into permanent floaters with no geographic limits on how far they are made to go.
Step 7: Offer staff positions to the sub-par among this batch.
Step 8: Wait for the "old" floaters to quit or make them quit by driving Step 4 to an extreme.
Step 9: Drive the new staff pharmacists insane. I'm talking ~300 scripts being done by 2 Rph (short bridging shift) and 1 Technician. No pill counting machines.
Step 10: Wait for these staff pharmacists and managers to get burnt out and quit as well. Rinse and repeat.

Case and point: THERE IS NO SURPLUS OF PHARMACISTS in or near New York.
You'll get a job. But, you won't be glad you did.
I know a lot of you may say that we should be glad we have a job but the other day a nice observant old lady told me, while I was giving her a flu shot, that at this rate I will be dead by 40. She could see how much work I was doing.
Moral of the story: Quit retail. Maybe even quit pharmacy.
 

type b pharmD

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LOL!

You see all kinds of activity on SDN communities:
(1) Bumping old threads.
(2) Lack of ego containment.
(3) Minimal sugar coating.

All this time spent on SDN should be spent exercising or lifting weights . . . it's healthier! =)
Lmao!

Moral of the story, SDN, welcome to the internet ?

I think SDN was relatively insulated for a good amount of time. In today's world, the internet is the great equalizer. Reddit and 4chan truly lowered the common denominator.

Internet is entertainment pure and simple
 

BidingMyTime

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Another bumped necrothread? Someone has a lot of time to go through the history here.

Anyway, it is still true, and probably always will be.....employers do not care about class rank or GPA. Because of the Naplex, pharmacists must pass this, and by passing it, they show they have the bookwork knowledge necessary to work as a pharmacist. So, what employers are looking for are personable people who can work well with others, laid-back people who don't stress out in high-pressure environments, and driven people who can check & verify 45 - 50 RX's/hr (and help occasionally with filling!) It's hard to gauge these characters, but employers will do the best they can from the interview & references.
 
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