Saturation: What can WE really do?

[King2440]

Hey everyone,

I am not trying to beat a decaying dead horse, but I did not see a better spot where I could ask this question.

Seriously, what can we really do with our profession potentially facing elimination and oversaturation like it’s never seen before?

Contact the government? Contact your alma mater? Email ACPE? Contact your state BOP or state pharmacy legislation?

To me it seems like all I listed are fails, and it leaves us to sit, wait and hope.

Many of us are looking at backup plans to avoid pharmacy and get out, however for people that truly love what they do - where the heck can one individual start?!

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[Rybko90]

Neither your state BOP, the government, nor your alma mater will save you. They couldn't care less. The BOP and the chains are completely intertwined, and the chains benefit massively from saturation.

Are pharmacists going to unionize? Doubtful.

So plan for yourself. No one is going to save you but you.

 

[mentos]

Nobody loves being a pharmacist. They love the salary. If pharmacists were paid $20/hr let's see how many people "love" it.

 

[Rybko90]

Nobody loves being a pharmacist. They love the salary. If pharmacists were paid $20/hr let's see how many people "love" it.

"love" is a strong word, but many enjoy the work well enough. I enjoy the fast-paced workplace, just like I enjoyed being a tech. Personally, I couldn't sit at a desk all day.

 

[RxPreceptor]

Nobody loves being a pharmacist. They love the salary. If pharmacists were paid $20/hr let's see how many people "love" it.

Unfortunately the profession is already full of too many money hungry RPhs. Whenever I get the chance with interns, I let them know how "glamorous" this profession really is @ a retail/community setting. This ain't no get rich quick scheme like far too many people tend to believe who are lacking proper pharmacy work experience

 

[alpha12]

Nobody loves being a pharmacist. They love the salary. If pharmacists were paid $20/hr let's see how many people "love" it.

Even if you like something you should consider how you will be compensated and treated before doing it. i love video games but will never be a video game dev because they are treated poorly, have to work long hours and are constantly laid off.

 

[mentos]

Even if you like something you should consider how you will be compensated and treated before doing it. i love video games but will never be a video game dev because they are treated poorly, have to work long hours and are constantly laid off.

Sounds like pharmacists.

 

[grumpyRph]

"love" is a strong word, but many enjoy the work well enough. I enjoy the fast-paced workplace, just like I enjoyed being a tech. Personally, I couldn't sit at a desk all day.

sorrrrrta. i like fast paced too, and i like feeling productive and useful, but then there's just those bad apples that ruin my entire day. repeat offenders who lose their meds, filling 10 things and then they transfer elsewhere, annoying slow technology that slows you down, phone calls with customers where you repeat yourself 10x, etc .you know the drill.

at least in retail standing and walking around all day, we burn more calories, so we don't have to feel bad about those chocolates from the candy aisle, or when we drink ourselves to sleep later, we still might wake up with not much of a spare tire. cheers!

 

[steveysmith54]

Create a new accrediting body, overthrow acpe.

create new standards for accreditation that 50% of the schools will not be able to meet.

make residency mandatory for new grads; just like med school.

ridicule and Scrutinize anyone who works at schools like Chapman, yeah Italking about you Larry Brown.

 

[Gombrich12]

Save your money and plan for an abrupt exit. That's the only thing to be done at this point. The time to unionize was 15 years ago when the labor market was heavily in our favor.

 

[rxkrafted]

Just stop hiring new grads so eventually when the school stats show up, they'll see >75% graduates unemployed and all those new unemployed grads will go after their respective school programs.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I'd just keep posting articles in the Pre-Pharm forum about saturation and possible alternatives to pharmacy. If even a few additional students decide not to go to pharmacy school then schools will likely shut down sooner. Schools are already having trouble filling their seats.

 

[confettiflyer]

Easy: don’t expand your student rotation slots.


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[spacecowgirl]

Easy: don’t expand your student rotation slots.

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My thoughts exactly. Zero rotations.

 

[Timbo]

Nothing. If people are still willing to take out $200k loans just so that they can be unemployed or make $39/h, it should be their right to

 

[BMBiology]

It is not wise to fight a tsunami. It is better to run for higher grounds. It feels great up here.

 

[PharmtoCS]

It is not wise to fight a tsunami. It is better to run for higher grounds. It feels great up here.

I’m personally trying to buy a bit of time so I can plan my escape route.

 

[Greatpharma]

Easy: don’t expand your student rotation slots.


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The sites love free labor, and the title preceptor is so prideful for some pharmacists to not take on. Being a preceptor is a way to show power to the students because they have no respect from the community.

 

[Lubeckd]

Satruration and reimbursement now.

 

[gwarm01]

It is not wise to fight a tsunami. It is better to run for higher grounds. It feels great up here.

If only you went with hurricane instead of tsunami. I was ready to make a Pacific Rim reference.

 

[King2440]

Easy: don’t expand your student rotation slots.


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True, but someone will take them.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Easy: don’t expand your student rotation slots.
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This is brilliant.
I'd take it a step further and fail some people

 

[JustFillIt]

I am taking a total of 6 students this year. If I drop them, who is going to do all that work?

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

Nobody loves being a pharmacist. They love the salary. If pharmacists were paid $20/hr let's see how many people "love" it.

Well, I'm sure we can say the same about dentists and doctors. haha. if they're getting paid $50k a year or something, see how many physicians would love their jobs lol

I do enjoy being a pharmacist though. Probably b/c i'm at an indie. I took a pay cut to get here but am still way more happier than being at CVS.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

make a pact not to hire any graduates from schools opened in the last 5-10 years. that will close a few schools real quick

Purposely hired a 70 year old rph for a part time lol also hired a friend of mine as prn. I am actively contributing to killing pharmacy schools lol Sorry new grads, no jobs for you right now....

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Easy: don’t expand your student rotation slots.


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My thoughts exactly. Zero rotations.

Not going to work when schools start offering $ to place their students on rotations. $5k per student is too good to pass up. Competitor offering $6k? Let’s make it $10k then (and subsequently jack up tuition by another $10k). Money talks.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Not going to work when schools start offering $ to place their students on rotations. $5k per student is too good to pass up. Competitor offering $6k? Let’s make it $10k then (and subsequently jack up tuition by another $10k). Money talks.

Another thing we can do is to advocate for more barriers to obtaining student loans. The number of pharmacy schools and their tuition prices are propped up artificially by the government handing out a blank check in student loans to anyone with a pulse.

 

[DrVader]

Hey everyone,

I am not trying to beat a decaying dead horse, but I did not see a better spot where I could ask this question.

Seriously, what can we really do with our profession potentially facing elimination and oversaturation like it’s never seen before?

Contact the government? Contact your alma mater? Email ACPE? Contact your state BOP or state pharmacy legislation?

To me it seems like all I listed are fails, and it leaves us to sit, wait and hope.

Many of us are looking at backup plans to avoid pharmacy and get out, however for people that truly love what they do - where the heck can one individual start?!

The market will fix itself. Saturation will drive down wages, which will drive down school enrollment. 10 to 15 years, the market will adjust. We all just happen to be pharmacist when the bubble bursts. Just like the mortgage crisis, the banks won, boomers who saw their equity skyrocket won.

Pharmacy is great for boomer and X-ers who went to school when there was low tution then wage their wages skyrocket. It is the younger crowd that is hurt.

The problem with pharmacist, is that we are seen as pill counters. The average person has a vague idea of what a doctor or nurse does, but no one knows what a pharmacist does. It is very difficult to use a pharmD anywhere else than retail.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

I am taking a total of 6 students this year. If I drop them, who is going to do all that work?

LOL. You deserve the retail job you have

 

[PharmDBro2017]

I am taking a total of 6 students this year. If I drop them, who is going to do all that work?

Looking back, the lady pharmd at a retail chain who took me during the high of flu season was brilliant.

I gave out flu and pneumonia shots all day for a full month....that's a legit benefit of taking interns.

 

[JustFillIt]

Looking back, the lady pharmd at a retail chain who took me during the high of flu season was brilliant.

I gave out flu and pneumonia shots all day for a full month....that's a legit benefit of taking interns.

I work smarter - not harder

 

[grumpyRph]

I'd just keep posting articles in the Pre-Pharm forum about saturation and possible alternatives to pharmacy. If even a few additional students decide not to go to pharmacy school then schools will likely shut down sooner. Schools are already having trouble filling their seats.

i heard creighton is already reducing its class size.

i feel bad even now at work, when we got IPPE students. i have this gut feeling of, what is the point of all of this?

i graduated 2011. i feel lucky for now. but still young enough to feel a sense of dread and urgency and panic of what is to come. and i live in a high cost of living area BUT i have full time hours and i'm actually working 16 hours over time this week with 1.5x pay. so i feel the need not to budge (move to a lower cost of living area) if i have full time. plus i'm single. what is life?

 

[BidingMyTime]

Not going to work when schools start offering $ to place their students on rotations. $5k per student is too good to pass up. Competitor offering $6k? Let’s make it $10k then (and subsequently jack up tuition by another $10k). Money talks.

Hmmm, maybe this is how pharmacists will make money in the future. We will just be paid to be preceptors for pharmacy schools.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Hmmm, maybe this is how pharmacists will make money in the future. We will just be paid to be preceptors for pharmacy schools.

And that is also why pharmacists who refuse to be preceptors to combat the saturation will be the first ones to be laid off because precepting is going to be a cash cow revenue source for hospitals/pharmacies in the future. There is a directly calculatable ROI for the value of a pharmacist doing precepting for money compared to trying to theorize over pharmacist ROIs based on ADEs avoided, hospitalizations avoided, scripts dispensed etc.

 

[owlbright]

Hmmm, maybe this is how pharmacists will make money in the future. We will just be paid to be preceptors for pharmacy schools.

You get paid for being a preceptor? I thought all the money goes direct up to the institutions/pharmacies. You are just volunteering with more liabilities. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[spacecowgirl]

Some schools already pay but they don't pay much. The most I saw was 500 and I never saw that.

I hope the market corrects itself and will just have to be glad I am insulated from it as much as anyone in any profession is.

 

[Greatpharma]

You get paid for being a preceptor? I thought all the money goes direct up to the institutions/pharmacies. You are just volunteering with more liabilities. Correct me if I'm wrong.

For my school, the preceptors do not directly get paid for doing that. My school emphasizes many times that the preceptors do not get paid, so we must always keep our head down and be nice to them. In return, they receive free labor and assistance from the students to compensate for their precepting time.

 

[right500]

I know the sites get paid because my APPEs were affected by schools within a couple hours drive "outbidding" my alma mater. I had to drive over an hour to my community APPE (and it turned out to be in a hospital doing discharge counseling). I "sub-precepted" (frankly babysat) students from the fly-by-night schools on one rotation. I think there should be some kind of exit test before rotations. How can people be in a clinical environment if they can't read and speak English well enough (assuming this isn't in PR) or know little about medications? Interestingly, most of a pharmacist's salary can be paid by rotating students if every pharmacist is always a preceptor. A pretty good business model albeit rather corrupted and Ponzi-like.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

i heard creighton is already reducing its class size.

i feel bad even now at work, when we got IPPE students. i have this gut feeling of, what is the point of all of this?

i graduated 2011. i feel lucky for now. but still young enough to feel a sense of dread and urgency and panic of what is to come. and i live in a high cost of living area BUT i have full time hours and i'm actually working 16 hours over time this week with 1.5x pay. so i feel the need not to budge (move to a lower cost of living area) if i have full time. plus i'm single. what is life?

Doesnt that burn you out? I worked 50-60 hours a week while working at cvs and was burned out after 9 months. Made lots of money. Was single. Dated a bunch of girls. Cant even count ons i had lol this type of life style burned me out after about a year.

So moved to an indie, got into a stable relationship, bought a house and am very happy with life haha

 

[mentos]

i heard creighton is already reducing its class size.

i feel bad even now at work, when we got IPPE students. i have this gut feeling of, what is the point of all of this?

i graduated 2011. i feel lucky for now. but still young enough to feel a sense of dread and urgency and panic of what is to come. and i live in a high cost of living area BUT i have full time hours and i'm actually working 16 hours over time this week with 1.5x pay. so i feel the need not to budge (move to a lower cost of living area) if i have full time. plus i'm single. what is life?

Make as much and save as much as you can before the gravy train runs out!

 

[grumpyRph]

Doesnt that burn you out? I worked 50-60 hours a week while working at cvs and was burned out after 9 months. Made lots of money. Was single. Dated a bunch of girls. Cant even count ons i had lol this type of life style burned me out after about a year.

So moved to an indie, got into a stable relationship, bought a house and am very happy with life haha

lol welllllll I havent done overtime like this in a couple years and I see it as a good opportunity to make more money from my evil retail chain . I feel ok. Lol. And I’m still single! But being single, it DOES eat up my time to socialize and date haha. But still been making it to the gym and I still went to a happy hour after a shift this week too. but I work kinda early tmrw morning so i probably shoullllllldnt go out tonight. *shouldnt*

 

[OmiPharmD]

i feel bad even now at work, when we got IPPE students. i have this gut feeling of, what is the point of all of this?

I feel bad for our IPPE students too. None of them have jobs lined up anymore while our residents are looking at each other with the dawning realization that we will be able to hire maybe 1 of them if they are lucky.

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[Sparda29]

Easy: don’t expand your student rotation slots.


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Yikes, my hospital has 8 rotation slots per month. The director and assistant director get the students and then they attach them to the different pharmacists in the department. I heard a rumor that they are considering giving me a student on the overnight shift. I don't want any part of a student following me around in the middle of the night and asking questions when I'm just trying to watch Netflix and play CSGO Deathmatch in between orders.

 

[confettiflyer]

Some schools already pay but they don't pay much. The most I saw was 500 and I never saw that.

I hope the market corrects itself and will just have to be glad I am insulated from it as much as anyone in any profession is.

Yah and that’s the answer to the question of this thread...the best thing you can do is isolate yourself such that your job is not directly able to be taken by a new grad.

I don’t get the panic, though...big whoop, pharmacy starts to look like every other field. I always hated the notion that a degree in something entitled you to a career.

From my view, the pool of high performing grads remains finite. I’m sure there’s lots of people piling up on the lower end, but they aren’t my concern, nor are they competition.

If you’ve been in practice 5 years and are threatened by new grad supply...that sounds like a personal failure, not a systemic one.


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[Seriously Serious]

Hey everyone,

I am not trying to beat a decaying dead horse, but I did not see a better spot where I could ask this question.

Seriously, what can we really do with our profession potentially facing elimination and oversaturation like it’s never seen before?

Contact the government? Contact your alma mater? Email ACPE? Contact your state BOP or state pharmacy legislation?

To me it seems like all I listed are fails, and it leaves us to sit, wait and hope.

Many of us are looking at backup plans to avoid pharmacy and get out, however for people that truly love what they do - where the heck can one individual start?!

At this point in time, nothing. We just have to let it die naturally. School's are churning out below average candidates who cannot talk to people/providers and/or fail multiple classes, hence you are seeing more hospitals "fire" schools for IPPEs/APPEs rotation sites. In Texas, I am already seeing the desperation of schools trying to put out fires and fill their classrooms. Interestingly, I think opening more schools will help saturation in that it will speed up this whole process.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

At this point in time, nothing. We just have to let it die naturally. School's are churning out below average candidates who cannot talk to people/providers and/or fail multiple classes, hence you are seeing more hospitals "fire" schools for IPPEs/APPEs rotation sites. In Texas, I am already seeing the desperation of schools trying to put out fires and fill their classrooms. Interestingly, I think opening more schools will help saturation in that it will speed up this whole process.

I gotta ask what your issue with credentials is (your sig)?

Putting it out there because I am humble; I didn't include PharmD after my name on my ID badge until my employer literally told me to include credentials. With that said, you've earned those credentials so why hate on it if you want to display em?

 

[aznkukuboi]

I'm the guy who says this every time. What saturation? I work in California where even though we have 13 pharmacy schools, we can't even staff my region. It's 2019 and I'll finish the year with over $200k as my salary because we have no pharmacists to cover any shifts. And honestly, my $200k will mostly be my store alone. I have 180 pharmacist hours a week. That's on paper 4.5 full shifts right? We only have like three pharmacist. I've shown a list of stores that my scheduler sends out that need coverage and there are days when we are 7 rph short. It's out of hand.

Anyway, in a few weeks I might post my pay stub to show, but everyone already knows if you work in Central Cal, you get $$$$.

 

[jecpharm89]

I'm the guy who says this every time. What saturation? I work in California where even though we have 13 pharmacy schools, we can't even staff my region. It's 2019 and I'll finish the year with over $200k as my salary because we have no pharmacists to cover any shifts. And honestly, my $200k will mostly be my store alone. I have 180 pharmacist hours a week. That's on paper 4.5 full shifts right? We only have like three pharmacist. I've shown a list of stores that my scheduler sends out that need coverage and there are days when we are 7 rph short. It's out of hand.

Anyway, in a few weeks I might post my pay stub to show, but everyone already knows if you work in Central Cal, you get $$$$.

Not everyone wants to work for CVS

 

[DagS132]

Not everyone wants to work for CVS

Beggars cant be choosers

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Not everyone wants to work for CVS

Yup.
Anyone working retail had better either
A.) Be close to retirement
B.) Work for a great, healthy company (I.e. None of the big chains)

The retail side of the profession still has a long way to go before it hits bottom.
The absolute garbage Pharm.D s being churned out by pharmacy schools are going to further damage the profession.
I am just shocked every time I interact with a post 2017 graduate / current P4, regardless of their alma mater.
I have no idea how they made it.
They know literally nothing.

These pharmacists (I'm talking to you, 2._ GPA people) are going to start having fatal errors and a lot of them.

It hasn't even started to get bad.

I'm the guy who says this every time. What saturation? I work in California where even though we have 13 pharmacy schools, we can't even staff my region. It's 2019 and I'll finish the year with over $200k as my salary because we have no pharmacists to cover any shifts. And honestly, my $200k will mostly be my store alone. I have 180 pharmacist hours a week. That's on paper 4.5 full shifts right? We only have like three pharmacist. I've shown a list of stores that my scheduler sends out that need coverage and there are days when we are 7 rph short. It's out of hand.

Anyway, in a few weeks I might post my pay stub to show, but everyone already knows if you work in Central Cal, you get $$$$.

Adjust for cost of living so people will know you actually make the same as a medical assistant in Oklahoma.