School Tiers?

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akschwab

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Hmmm- stupid question:
How do you know what tier a school is in- I know there are three but I don't know where I would find what tier schools are in- any help? :confused:

And if you know what tier are the following in?

MN TC
Mayo
Rosalind Franklin
NYMC
SLU
Case Western
Georgetown
MCW
Iowa
Creighton
Loyola

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akschwab said:
Hmmm- stupid question:
How do you know what tier a school is in- I know there are three but I don't know where I would find what tier schools are in- any help? :confused:

It's not an official thing, people just say "top tier" to denote schools in the upper rankings, "mid-tier" to denote schools in the middle-bottom rankings, and "lower-tier" to denote unranked schools. This is just the system I have observed here, not necessarily anything I myself endorse or believe in, and it certainly isn't set in stone.

akschwab said:
And if you know what tier are the following in?

MN TC -middle
Mayo- top
Rosalind Franklin- lower
NYMC- lower
SLU- lower
Case Western- top
Georgetown- middle
MCW- middle
Iowa-?
Creighton-?
Loyola-?
 
akschwab said:
Hmmm- stupid question:
How do you know what tier a school is in- I know there are three but I don't know where I would find what tier schools are in- any help? :confused:

And if you know what tier are the following in?

MN TC
Mayo
Rosalind Franklin
NYMC
SLU
Case Western
Georgetown
MCW
Iowa
Creighton
Loyola

I was wondering that same thing. I have talked to different docs and they vary in on their opinions regarding certain schools. They all seem to make their decisions based on different criteria, research dollars, match list results, board scores, etc.
 
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Different people do have different opinions, but USNEWS Research rankings is very much a list of prestige and thats what your basic "tiers" are.
I would say that top tier = ~top 20
Middle tier = top half (ranked schools or top ~65)
Lower tier = unranked schools

MN TC -mid
Mayo- top
Rosalind Franklin- lower
NYMC- lower
SLU- mid
Case Western- top
Georgetown- mid
MCW- mid
Iowa-mid
Creighton-mid/lower
Loyola-mid
 
One thing to consider when looking at rankings is why the school is unranked. USNews makes rankings based on research dollars. Some schools do not turn in data to USNews for ranking purposes like NYMC, Penn St. --- this is why they are unranked. I'm not saying that they'd be ranked really high if they did, but that's why they are unranked.
 
bbtbay said:
One thing to consider when looking at rankings is why the school is unranked. USNews makes rankings based on research dollars. Some schools do not turn in data to USNews for ranking purposes like NYMC, Penn St. --- this is why they are unranked. I'm not saying that they'd be ranked really high if they did, but that's why they are unranked.

But of course, there is no guarantee they would be ranked if they did turn in their data, so there is no way of knowing whether they would be ranked or not.
 
bbtbay said:
One thing to consider when looking at rankings is why the school is unranked. USNews makes rankings based on research dollars. Some schools do not turn in data to USNews for ranking purposes like NYMC, Penn St. --- this is why they are unranked. I'm not saying that they'd be ranked really high if they did, but that's why they are unranked.

Yeah- that's why I was wondering if tiers were an alternative ranking system that took that into account- I thought tiers might not be by a privately run company (like usnews) that ranked them but apparently it's just an informal system
 
criminallyinane said:
But of course, there is no guarantee they would be ranked if they did turn in their data, so there is no way of knowing whether they would be ranked or not.

True
 
YzIa said:
Different people do have different opinions, but USNEWS Research rankings is very much a list of prestige and thats what your basic "tiers" are.
I would say that top tier = ~top 20
Middle tier = top half (ranked schools or top ~65)
Lower tier = unranked schools

This is how I would divide into "three tiers" as well ("top" vs "ranked" vs "unranked"), although you should be aware that med schools aren't usually looked at in tiers the way that undergrad is (eg. in Barrons guides which break things down into Most Competitive, Less Competitive etc.). There simply aren't that many med schools, and they all have fairly small classes, so they are really all extremely competitive.
 
criminallyinane said:
But of course, there is no guarantee they would be ranked if they did turn in their data, so there is no way of knowing whether they would be ranked or not.

True
 
Law2Doc said:
This is how I would divide into "three tiers" as well ("top" vs "ranked" vs "unranked"), although you should be aware that med schools aren't usually looked at in tiers the way that undergrad is (eg. in Barrons guides which break things down into Most Competitive, Less Competitive etc.). There simply aren't that many med schools, and they all have fairly small classes, so they are really all extremely competitive.

If most of these ranking systems, USnews and others are not representative because of many schools are not submitting their data or completing surveys, should we be talking to residency directors? And if we have the choice go to a school that they suggest is better than another, is that the way we should go, because in the end we all want the best residency we can get.
 
PPPartyMan said:
If most of these ranking systems, USnews and others are not representative because of many schools are not submitting their data or completing surveys, should we be talking to residency directors? And if we have the choice go to a school that they suggest is better than another, is that the way we should go, because in the end we all want the best residency we can get.
There's no way residency directors are going to be receptive to lots of inquiries from premeds - unless you know one personally, forget it. Use US News Research Rankings and MSAR as very rough, imperfect guides as to which schools are better than others, bearing in mind that schools within about, say, 5 - 10 spots in terms of rankings are probably pretty indistinguishable in terms of quality, prestige or residency match lists. Most importantly use these resources to get an idea where your credentials are competitive, and then apply to a lot in this pack, some lower, and some longshots.
 
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so what are the cut-offs for tiers? i assume most go by the research rank. so 25/30/35/40 schools per tier?
 
The tiers are uneven. Most refer to the top 20-25 as top. Middle is the rest that are ranked through ~65. Then low is 65 through ~140 or whatever the number of schools.
Top-20 schools
Mid-40 schools
Low-80 schools
 
I'm pretty sure the "tier" terminology comes from USNews' college (undergrad) rankings, which does include a "top tier", "middle tier", and "lower tier." These terms aren't used by USNews to describe med schools, but the terminology has become almost universal. One problem with using this language to describe medical schools is that there are really no "low tier" med schools in the US. Just check match lists, and you can see that while the top schools may have more prestigious lists, even the schools considered lower match plenty of people into good programs. There is not nearly as great a range in med school quality as there is in college quality.

That said, there certainly is a hierarchy of reputation, and when applying to a residency your med school is a factor. The general rankings people assigned to your list of schools seems accurate to me, too. In some ways, though, I think it may be more appropriate to split med schools into two groups, the more prestigious and less prestigious, rather than three. I suppose if I were to do that I'd put about 50 or so schools in the more prestigious category and the rest in the less prestigious. And within those groups there will still be more and less prestigious schools, but much of that is influenced by regional factors or perhaps even speciality reputation (which is usually based on residency programs but may filter down to influence the school itself).

Just my thoughts.

edit: It's possible that there are 5 to 10 schools at the top which have a much higher reputation than all the rest. Schools like HMS, JHU, Yale, maybe Wash. U...I'm not sure on the exact schools (I personally haven't found it necessary to pay much attention to them for my own application :p). Aside from those schools, the 2-part ranking system still seems to me to be appropriate.
 
tigress said:
edit: It's possible that there are 5 to 10 schools at the top which have a much higher reputation than all the rest. Schools like HMS, JHU, Yale, maybe Wash. U...I'm not sure on the exact schools (I personally haven't found it necessary to pay much attention to them for my own application :p). Aside from those schools, the 2-part ranking system still seems to me to be appropriate.

Yale does not belong on this "short list" -- currently ranked at #11 in med schools - still a fantastic school but not of the same prestige value as Harvard or Hopkins...
 
akschwab said:
Hmmm- stupid question:
How do you know what tier a school is in- I know there are three but I don't know where I would find what tier schools are in- any help? :confused:

And if you know what tier are the following in?

MN TC
Mayo
Rosalind Franklin
NYMC
SLU
Case Western
Georgetown
MCW
Iowa
Creighton
Loyola

why do you care?

get yourself into medical school and then worry about the tiers when you are contemplating various acceptances.

pleeeeeaaaaase................
 
Law2Doc said:
Yale does not belong on this "short list" -- currently ranked at #11 in med schools - still a fantastic school but not of the same prestige value as Harvard or Hopkins...

like I said, I don't know too many specifics about the top of the heap :laugh:
 
The U.S. News & World Report rankings are worthless for anything other than research physicians. You will learn a lot about medicine at any school that you choose to attend. Also, the rankings do not take into account other variables that might cause people to select various schools: location, teaching style (didactic vs. PBL), tuition costs, student satisfaction, match lists, scut work, etc ...
 
In my opinion Yale is one of the schools that is considered significantly more prestigious than its USNEWS rank. I also think that Stanford is a top 10 example of this, while U Chicago and NYU are others. I feel that these programs are deemed more prestigious than some of the schools ranked higher then them and that the rankings do not play to their strengths. (While that could be said for any school.)
 
Law2Doc said:
This is how I would divide into "three tiers" as well ("top" vs "ranked" vs "unranked"), although you should be aware that med schools aren't usually looked at in tiers the way that undergrad is (eg. in Barrons guides which break things down into Most Competitive, Less Competitive etc.). There simply aren't that many med schools, and they all have fairly small classes, so they are really all extremely competitive.

exactly. Getting accepted to any US medical school is sweet as acceptance rates are below 10% across the board...someone back me up-

unranked doesn't mean a thing if you aren't interested in academic medicine...

With that said, I am ECSTATIC to be attending NYMC in the fall (lower tier!!boohoo/ w. appx 9000 apps and incoming class of 190--prob accepted 3x that but still exceptionally competitive). They matched a number of students into derm, ortho, rad etc... I think step scores are much more of a distinguishing factor come match time.
 
Biffer said:
exactly. Getting accepted to any US medical school is sweet as acceptance rates are below 10% across the board...someone back me up-
While what you are saying is true, it comes across misleading. Yes admissions rates at any individual school range from 5-12%, but applicants getting into any US allopathic school to which they applied has ranged from 1/3 - 1/2 over the past 15 years.
 
It is a little off topic, but I was wondering about that myself (school ranking/residency matching) and don't understand the matching ordeal. Haven't looked into residency much. Is it kind of like...residency programs offer spots to schools, then schools match their students to those limited seats? The extent of my knowledge is a computer interprets the lists of who wants where, and where wants who, then comes up with a match...or something. So I'm not going to just apply to a residency wherever I want? If I want a certain specialty and location, but the combination isn't offered to the school, I'm screwed? I don't understand the system or the logic behind it.
Considering it, however, is a big pressure to get into the best school you can, which is why I'm asking!
 
NikkiFSU said:
It is a little off topic, but I was wondering about that myself (school ranking/residency matching) and don't understand the matching ordeal. Haven't looked into residency much. Is it kind of like...residency programs offer spots to schools, then schools match their students to those limited seats? The extent of my knowledge is a computer interprets the lists of who wants where, and where wants who, then comes up with a match...or something. So I'm not going to just apply to a residency wherever I want? If I want a certain specialty and location, but the combination isn't offered to the school, I'm screwed? I don't understand the system or the logic behind it.
Considering it, however, is a big pressure to get into the best school you can, which is why I'm asking!

The match system can be kind of confusing. Basically you apply to the programs you're interested in, and the ones that are interested in you will interview you. Then when the time comes, you make a list of the places you'd like to go, in order of preference. The schools make their own list of people they'd like to have in their program, in order of preference. Sometimes people know that a school will put them high on a list, but sometimes there's really no indication. Then on match day a computer runs down each list and matches people and schools so that everybody has the highest possible match for their list. There are a few places online where you can see a simulated match, like with five or so pretend candidates and their lists. Many students match to places high on their lists, but some people don't match at all (hopefully this doesn't happen; if you're a good student and know how to use the match system to your benefit, you have a really good chance). If you don't match you have a chance to "scramble", which means for about a day after match results are announced you can call up all of the programs with empty slots and ask them to take you, usually faxing them your resume and talking to them on the phone. Many people do get spots by scrambling. Some people each year are left without residency positions, and they can apply the next year. Some programs will also sign people outside the match system if there are leftover spots or additional spots (I think; I'm hazy on these last details).

Hope this helps. I learned all of this through my brother-in-law, who's a third year, my husband (first year), and reading this site obsessively for months :p
 
Ifellinapothole said:
why do you care?

get yourself into medical school and then worry about the tiers when you are contemplating various acceptances.

pleeeeeaaaaase................

He is obviously just curious to know. Way to add some insight to this discussion.
 
NikkiFSU said:
It is a little off topic, but I was wondering about that myself (school ranking/residency matching) and don't understand the matching ordeal. Haven't looked into residency much. Is it kind of like...residency programs offer spots to schools, then schools match their students to those limited seats? The extent of my knowledge is a computer interprets the lists of who wants where, and where wants who, then comes up with a match...or something. So I'm not going to just apply to a residency wherever I want? If I want a certain specialty and location, but the combination isn't offered to the school, I'm screwed? I don't understand the system or the logic behind it.
Considering it, however, is a big pressure to get into the best school you can, which is why I'm asking!

Tigress explained it well. It is not the school that matches to a residency, it is you. A stellar applicant from a lower ranked school can match at a good place, and a crummy applicant from a top ranked school can match badly. But a school's match list can give you some insight in how a school and its students are regarded by the various residency directors. Meaning that if lots of people this year at school X match into competitive ortho residencies, that might mean it would be a good launching pad for you if you had the same aspirations. But it's certainly not going to be locked in, and how a school does today may not be reflective of how it will be perceived in 4 years when you are applying for residencies.
 
Thanks guys... that makes a lot more sense. I thought that it was WAY worse than that....like I would only apply to a # of positions offered to the specific med school I go to. Whew!
 
NikkiFSU said:
Thanks guys... that makes a lot more sense. I thought that it was WAY worse than that....like I would only apply to a # of positions offered to the specific med school I go to. Whew!

The way people here go on, you'd think that was true, but luckily, you get yourself into a residency. Your school has virtually nothing to do with it :) So Yale doesn't really get 10 derm spots for them a year, their applicants get themselves those spots. However, that brings up a controversial point: do competitive residencies prefer students from better schools? That is, all else being equal (Step 1 score, recommendations, and "grades" from MD school), will the student from the higher-ranked school have the edge just because of brand loyalty? Could it be because some of the high-powered faculty have connections at high-powered programs, or just old-fashioned snobbery? Does it even happen?

It might be a tie-breaker sometimes, but we'll never really know. The most important thing is to make yourself a standout, unique, strong applicant in the field you are most interested in. The rest will take care of itself :)
 
...One problem with using this language to describe medical schools is that there are really no "low tier" med schools in the US. Just check match lists, and you can see that while the top schools may have more prestigious lists, even the schools considered lower match plenty of people into good programs. There is not nearly as great a range in med school quality as there is in college quality.

That said, there certainly is a hierarchy of reputation, and when applying to a residency your med school is a factor. The general rankings people assigned to your list of schools seems accurate to me, too. In some ways, though, I think it may be more appropriate to split med schools into two groups, the more prestigious and less prestigious, rather than three. I suppose if I were to do that I'd put about 50 or so schools in the more prestigious category and the rest in the less prestigious. And within those groups there will still be more and less prestigious schools, but much of that is influenced by regional factors or perhaps even speciality reputation (which is usually based on residency programs but may filter down to influence the school itself).

Just my thoughts.

edit: It's possible that there are 5 to 10 schools at the top which have a much higher reputation than all the rest. Schools like HMS, JHU, Yale, maybe Wash. U...I'm not sure on the exact schools (I personally haven't found it necessary to pay much attention to them for my own application ). Aside from those schools, the 2-part ranking system still seems to me to be appropriate..

YzIa said:
In my opinion Yale is one of the schools that is considered significantly more prestigious than its USNEWS rank. I also think that Stanford is a top 10 example of this, while U Chicago and NYU are others. I feel that these programs are deemed more prestigious than some of the schools ranked higher then them and that the rankings do not play to their strengths. (While that could be said for any school.)

The above two posts are thinking that is most accurate in my opinion. There is an elite tier...then there is like the next roughly 30 schools, then there is the rest. USNews is a fair approximation, but not ideal as is pointed out above. some schools have reputations that exceed their ranking and some have very strong regional reputations without as much national recognition. There are definitely program directors who would rather have a USC graduate(ranked 32) over a Pittsburgh graduate (ranked 16), or Brown University person (ranked 40) over a UCSD (ranked 14) person. Not to take anything away from these places, but I've graduated med school and been in situations where I've heard this is the case. That being said, other people might bend over backwards to get that Pittsburgh grad etc. But most people would, all things equal (or maybe not even) take that Harvard guy over the above mentioned. Once you get outside of these, it gets a bit more subjective and regional. I think the top handful from academic residency directors would be Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, Stanford, Yale, and UChicago. Some would add Penn and Columbia. But that is subjective I guess, please lets not get into a debate here.

It does matter, but not in the way many people think...rather in a much less concrete and definable way that is subject to too many variables to decipher.

But I actually know for a fact that a residency program director would rank most of the harvard people regardless of their grades (as long as they were sane and functional) above studs from lesser schools. It reflects well on the residency program when applicants or others are reading their match list and they see the list says Harvard, Yale etc.
 
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