Schools starting rotations again

[ohmanwaddup]

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CDC issued very broad ineffective guidlines that effectively gave hospitals some coverage surrounding PPE, like the reuse ppe , one mask a week etc. This will provide some legal cover to the hospitals considering they were following guidelines laid out by CDC. Not sure if OSHA agreed with them.

What would be the basis of bringing a lawsuit centered around cutting pay ?

No idea. That's why I asked. Was wondering if pay cuts from your employment contract salaries is "Ok/allowed". I also may have no idea what I am talking about. I went into med school with only 6 months of real employment under my belt.

 

[ohmanwaddup]

Making the choice to drive and then subsequently having to adhere to the rules of the behavior you're making the choice to engage in is a lot different than government shutting down businesses, telling business owners they can't have patrons or make sales, forcing places of employment to shut down leading to millions of people on unemployment, and dictating who is and who isn't allowed to go to work and make an income/provide for themselves. You know what will kill more than COVID-19? Starvation and loss of shelter. Forcing a society that has always functioned as prioritizing providing for yourself and not relying on authority bodies to do that for you into a system where you absolutely have no means to provide for yourself and must submit to government support (e.g. file for unemployment and survive off that for the foreseeable future) is entirely different than rules created around certain activities that you don't have to participate in if you don't like it.

Unfortunately, I think the reality of this whole thing has escaped a lot of initial intentions. The reality, as I've heard from multiple hospital workers (nurses, clinicians alike) is that there is a huge issue with artificial inflation and hospital financial stress that is making cases and deaths attributed to COVID-19 seem much more severe than it is in reality which feeds into these extended policies. For instance, I hear constant stories about how doctors are being pressured into signing off COVID-19 as cause of death in terminally ill or critically ill patients with other comorbitidies as those hospitals receive funding on the amount of patients dying from COVID-19 - when in any other case, a patient with stage IV cancer might catch the flu and perhaps die from exacerbated effects of the flu wouldn't have cause of death: flu on their certificate, it would be cause of death: X cancer; but in this case, always is written off as COVID-19. Or I've heard stories of admitting more patients than what is even necessary, non-critical COVID-19 patients, as hospitals receive funding and supplies based on the amount of cases they actively have etc.

This issue has become much more complicated than "protect the vulnerable" as it has transformed into something much more than that. There are so many politics and undercurrents at play that that baseline goal is not really the primary issue anymore. Furthermore, it is quite impossible to eradicate infectious disease with R=2 transmission rates off the face of the planet just by keeping everyone physically away from each other by arbitrary distances that are variable amongst the experts (is it 6ft or 10ft that COVID-19 can travel, no one knows). We've never in the history of time quarantined healthy people - anyone who really thinks all of this is simply to protect the vulnerable or that this is a sustainable solution for grander society and maintaining global economic systems should really try diversifying their research sources.

I don't think anyone finds this whole shutdown situation sustainable. Most places are coming back online throughout May. I've also heard "stories" of doctors being pressured to put COVID down on death certificates and what not, but have never seen actual concrete proof that it is occurring. To my understanding as well, money wise this would essentially be medicare fraud. I find it hard to believe that an institution would risk that for such a high profile illness.

 

[mmchick]

I don't think anyone finds this whole shutdown situation sustainable. Most places are coming back online throughout May. I've also heard "stories" of doctors being pressured to put COVID down on death certificates and what not, but have never seen actual concrete proof that it is occurring. To my understanding as well, money wise this would essentially be medicare fraud. I find it hard to believe that an institution would risk that for such a high profile illness.

I've literally heard firsthand from nurses that I am close with that they've directly witnessed doctors do this. It isn't considered fraud as if someone tests positive for COVID-19 and then succumbs to their symptoms related to COVID-19, you could make a case that they "died from COVID" which could or could not be directly true, but my point is that if that same patient caught the seasonal flu and then succumbed to those symptoms, they probably wouldn't have even been tested let alone declared dead from the flu - they would just have their terminal illness on their certificate. Changing the standard of this for COVID-19 (for whatever reasons, including pressures from "above" granted hospitals receive funding on these numbers) is inflating the reality of how other illnesses would otherwise be reported.

 

[ohmanwaddup]

I've literally heard firsthand from nurses that I am close with that they've directly witnessed doctors do this. It isn't considered fraud as if someone tests positive for COVID-19 and then succumbs to their symptoms related to COVID-19, you could make a case that they "died from COVID" which could or could not be directly true, but my point is that if that same patient caught the seasonal flu and then succumbed to those symptoms, they probably wouldn't have even been tested let alone declared dead from the flu - they would just have their terminal illness on their certificate. Changing the standard of this for COVID-19 (for whatever reasons, including pressures from "above" granted hospitals receive funding on these numbers) is inflating the reality of how other illnesses would otherwise be reported.

I have not worked personally with death certificates so I can't comment on what would be put on one for your flu situation, but if someone "succumbs to their symptoms related to COVID-19", I don't see how it is incorrect to list that they are a COVID death. However If this is such a widespread issue to significantly inflate the number why has it not been reported on? you would think with a pandemic this politicized the current administration would jump on that right away. To me that is the biggest hole in this claim, and obviously if concrete information comes out about it being done in significant numbers I will of course change my view, it just seems incredibly unlikely right now.

 

[mmchick]

I have not worked personally with death certificates so I can't comment on what would be put on one for your flu situation, but if someone "succumbs to their symptoms related to COVID-19", I don't see how it is incorrect to list that they are a COVID death. However If this is such a widespread issue to significantly inflate the number why has it not been reported on? you would think with a pandemic this politicized the current administration would jump on that right away. To me that is the biggest hole in this claim, and obviously if concrete information comes out about it being done in significant numbers I will of course change my view, it just seems incredibly unlikely right now.

The fact that this isn't being so widespread reported is exactly the reason why I said this has become highly politicized. I can't help you if you think that the truth, nothing but the truth, and the whole truth is what you are always reading on your iPhone's suggested headlines.

 

[libertyyne]

Making the choice to drive and then subsequently having to adhere to the rules of the behavior you're making the choice to engage in is a lot different than government shutting down businesses, telling business owners they can't have patrons or make sales, forcing places of employment to shut down leading to millions of people on unemployment, and dictating who is and who isn't allowed to go to work and make an income/provide for themselves. You know what will kill more than COVID-19? Starvation and loss of shelter. Forcing a society that has always functioned as prioritizing providing for yourself and not relying on authority bodies to do that for you into a system where you absolutely have no means to provide for yourself and must submit to government support (e.g. file for unemployment and survive off that for the foreseeable future) is entirely different than rules created around certain activities that you don't have to participate in if you don't like it.

Unfortunately, I think the reality of this whole thing has escaped a lot of initial intentions. The reality, as I've heard from multiple hospital workers (nurses, clinicians alike) is that there is a huge issue with artificial inflation and hospital financial stress that is making cases and deaths attributed to COVID-19 seem much more severe than it is in reality which feeds into these extended policies. For instance, I hear constant stories about how doctors are being pressured into signing off COVID-19 as cause of death in terminally ill or critically ill patients with other comorbitidies as those hospitals receive funding on the amount of patients dying from COVID-19 - when in any other case, a patient with stage IV cancer might catch the flu and perhaps die from exacerbated effects of the flu wouldn't have cause of death: flu on their certificate, it would be cause of death: X cancer; but in this case, always is written off as COVID-19. Or I've heard stories of admitting more patients than what is even necessary, non-critical COVID-19 patients, as hospitals receive funding and supplies based on the amount of cases they actively have etc.

This issue has become much more complicated than "protect the vulnerable" as it has transformed into something much more than that. There are so many politics and undercurrents at play that that baseline goal is not really the primary issue anymore. Furthermore, it is quite impossible to eradicate infectious disease with R=2 transmission rates off the face of the planet just by keeping everyone physically away from each other by arbitrary distances that are variable amongst the experts (is it 6ft or 10ft that COVID-19 can travel, no one knows). We've never in the history of time quarantined healthy people - anyone who really thinks all of this is simply to protect the vulnerable or that this is a sustainable solution for grander society and maintaining global economic systems should really try diversifying their research sources.

oh man, i didnt realize there were actually physican covid death toll deniers.

Edit nevermind you are a premed.

Edit : I am sure italy was faking its death toll and mortality rate so american civil liberties could be denied and the illuminati could rule unrestrained.

 

[mmchick]

oh man, i didnt realize there were actually physican covid death toll deniers.

Edit nevermind you are a premed.

Edit : I am sure italy was faking its death toll and mortality rate so american civil liberties could be denied and the illuminati could rule unrestrained.

Typical. Anyone who doesn't agree with the main hose of information shoved down our throats is a conspiracy theorist without ability to critically think about issues at hand. I don't much care to engage in conversations with people who prefer ad hominem.

 

[libertyyne]

Typical. Anyone who doesn't agree with the main hose of information shoved down our throats is a conspiracy theorist without ability to critically think about issues at hand. I don't much care to engage in conversations with people who prefer ad hominem.

Please, what is more likely some multinational conspiracy theory amongst all healthcare providers to cripple the economy, lay off their collegues, stop elective surgery. Or you know some people making **** up to suit their political worldview.

I would rather not engage with people hawking conspiracy theories and denying suffering, especially if they are premeds.

Italy was totally falsifying their mortality rate to cause civil liberty forfeitures in america. lol.

 

[Mass Effect]

Making the choice to drive and then subsequently having to adhere to the rules of the behavior you're making the choice to engage in is a lot different than government shutting down businesses, telling business owners they can't have patrons or make sales, forcing places of employment to shut down leading to millions of people on unemployment, and dictating who is and who isn't allowed to go to work and make an income/provide for themselves

One might say it's similar to what they do during mandatory evacuations and curfews.

Unfortunately, I think the reality of this whole thing has escaped a lot of initial intentions. The reality, as I've heard from multiple hospital workers (nurses, clinicians alike) is that there is a huge issue with artificial inflation and hospital financial stress that is making cases and deaths attributed to COVID-19 seem much more severe than it is in reality which feeds into these extended policies. For instance, I hear constant stories about how doctors are being pressured into signing off COVID-19 as cause of death in terminally ill or critically ill patients with other comorbitidies as those hospitals receive funding on the amount of patients dying from COVID-19 - when in any other case, a patient with stage IV cancer might catch the flu and perhaps die from exacerbated effects of the flu wouldn't have cause of death: flu on their certificate, it would be cause of death: X cancer; but in this case, always is written off as COVID-19. Or I've heard stories of admitting more patients than what is even necessary, non-critical COVID-19 patients, as hospitals receive funding and supplies based on the amount of cases they actively have etc.

The evidence points to exactly the opposite of what you've heard so maybe consider the source.

We've never in the history of time quarantined healthy people

We've never in history dealt with a virus in which asymptomatic people can pass it along to those it has a higher chance of killing.

anyone who really thinks all of this is simply to protect the vulnerable or that this is a sustainable solution for grander society and maintaining global economic systems should really try diversifying their research sources.

I'd strongly suggest you do the same.

 

[mmchick]

Please, what is more likely some multinational conspiracy theory amongst all healthcare providers to cripple the economy, lay off their collegues, stop elective surgery. Or you know some people making **** up to suit their political worldview.

I would rather not engage with people hawking conspiracy theories and denying suffering, especially if they are premeds.

Italy was totally falsifying their mortality rate to cause civil liberty forfeitures in america. lol.

So in other words,

you got me there, well played.

 

[Mass Effect]

There isn’t. It’s classic America to immediately want to sue if literally anything bad happens. There would need to be proof of wrongdoing not just CEOs being terrible people under the guise of capitalism

I mean, an argument could be made for breach of contract in many cases. But who knows if it would go anywhere. These are extraordinary times.

 

[<L>]

oh man, i didnt realize there were actually physican covid death toll deniers.

Edit nevermind you are a premed.

Edit : I am sure italy was faking its death toll and mortality rate so american civil liberties could be denied and the illuminati could rule unrestrained.

Oh you should see the physicians facebook groups I'm in... Rando family med docs in rural Colorado suddenly dubbed themselves public health experts while posting Daily Wire articles.

 

[<L>]

So in other words,

View attachment 306384

you got me there, well played.

This but unironically.

 

[libertyyne]

So in other words,

View attachment 306384

you got me there, well played.

I am not calling you anything. If you are coming to that conclusion yourself thats on you.
Please humor me. Is this cabal also increasing excess mortality compared to the previous 5 years as well in the united states.
Must be a really powerful cabal to cause countries to have excess mortality compared to seasonal averages as well. Are they injecting something into people to cause these excess deaths or is it just the 5G cell towers? And how does bill gates factor into this?

 

[mmchick]

I am not calling you anything. If you are coming to that conclusion yourself thats on you.

You cordially stopped short of name-calling, but otherwise dismissed everything I said because you've seen when I'm set to graduate medical school.

People will really say whatever they want to stop themselves from having to think of alternative perspectives about any issue they feel passionately about. I never mentioned Italy, global influences on American policies, or conspiracy theories. You brilliantly came up with all of those yourself.

Showing me a chart with no source information is baseless. Showing me a chart with peaked diagnosable deaths attributable to COVID-19 is truly comical in the light of what I said, which I am thoroughly convinced you did not actually read, which was exclusively about anecdotal evidence of people who have witnessed increased COVID-19 death attributes than what they would normally have expected (would love to see the evidence you claim is out there against this or how that would manifest @Mass Effect) -- showing a chart with this exact information does nothing to address the possibility that we are diagnosing COVID-19 more than we would with any other illness and therefore creating a perception that this issue is larger than any other illness we have ever seen before and basing unprecedented policy on. This says nothing to negate the fact that people are acquiring COVID-19 and surely succumbing to related symptoms, as much as you would like to point your finger at me and call me a "denier".

Take it or leave it. This is all I cared much to say about this issue in the monotonous waves of the single perspective I only hear about COVID-19 on SDN.

 

[<L>]

Some big contrarian college student energy in this thread.

 

[Mass Effect]

I've literally heard firsthand from nurses that I am close with that they've directly witnessed doctors do this. It isn't considered fraud as if someone tests positive for COVID-19 and then succumbs to their symptoms related to COVID-19, you could make a case that they "died from COVID" which could or could not be directly true, but my point is that if that same patient caught the seasonal flu and then succumbed to those symptoms, they probably wouldn't have even been tested let alone declared dead from the flu - they would just have their terminal illness on their certificate. Changing the standard of this for COVID-19 (for whatever reasons, including pressures from "above" granted hospitals receive funding on these numbers) is inflating the reality of how other illnesses would otherwise be reported.

What? Your point doesn't even make any sense. If they died of their symptoms related to COVID, then they died of COVID. If they had co-morbid cancer, that makes no difference. And I could tell you were a pre-med because to suggest that cancer patients who die of flu never have that on their death certificates shows your ignorance in this. First, this is not the flu. If you don't understand that, I'd argue you're not ready for med school. Second, complications related to the flu kills people. So if someone dies of pneumonia, despite having cancer, their cause of death is labeled pneumonia and it most certainly is registered as a death from the flu (how do you think we get those mortality numbers?). In this case, patients who die of heart attack or stroke, that's what's listed on their death certificate (and I know this for a fact because my patient who died of stroke last month related to COVID), but the heart attack or stroke is due to COVID and that's important to know so we can properly track the death rate.

 

[libertyyne]

You cordially stopped short of name-calling, but otherwise dismissed everything I said because you've seen when I'm set to graduate medical school.

People will really say whatever they want to stop themselves from having to think of alternative perspectives about any issue they feel passionately about. I never mentioned Italy, global influences on American policies, or conspiracy theories. You brilliantly came up with all of those yourself.

Do you not see the natural progression of your argument that deaths are being inflated in the united states is to check mortality rates in other countries to see if the data is significantly different?

Showing me a chart with no source information is baseless. Showing me a chart with peaked diagnosable deaths attributable to COVID-19 is truly comical in the light of what I said, which I am thoroughly convinced you did not actually read, which was exclusively about anecdotal evidence of people who have witnessed increased COVID-19 death attributes than what they would normally have expected (would love to see the evidence you claim is out there against this or how that would manifest @Mass Effect) -- showing a chart with this exact information does nothing to address the possibility that we are diagnosing COVID-19 more than we would with any other illness and therefore creating a perception that this issue is larger than any other illness we have ever seen before and basing unprecedented policy on. This says nothing to negate the fact that people are acquiring COVID-19 and surely succumbing to related symptoms, as much as you would like to point your finger at me and call me a "denier".

Take it or leave it. This is all I cared much to say about this issue in the monotonous waves of the single perspective I only hear about COVID-19 on SDN.

Apparently reading charts is not a strong suite either, considering it does not just list covid deaths it lists ALL cause mortality.

Do you not understand that if people are attributing deaths that would otherwise occur due to Cancer or MI the total amount of deaths would stay the same according to seasonal variances and norms. The chart I provided actually gives 5 years of average mortality data in those locales and then compares it with current data which is clearly an outlier. So there are more total deaths occuring right now than are normally occuring.

so we are on soft denial now. got it.

You still have no answered why other countries would go our of their way to show mortality rates and case fatality rates inline with what we are seeing here? Surely they are not doing all of this so our civil liberties can be usurped.

Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19

Figures present excess deaths associated with COVID-19 at the national and state levels.

www.cdc.gov

U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported, C.D.C. Data Suggests (Published 2020)

In seven hard-hit states, total deaths are nearly 50 percent higher than normal, according to new C.D.C. statistics, suggesting that the virus has killed far more people than the number in official counts.

www.nytimes.com

 

[mmchick]

Bravo. I'll continue to have my opinion and you guys passionately have yours.

 

[gyngyn]

Let's see if this can get back on topic.

 

[Eye-eye]

 

[kraskadva]

Let's see if this can get back on topic.

That would be nice...


My school thinks we can get back into hospitals in Chicago in mid June. I think they're very (foolishly) optimistic, since this depends on PPE availability here. Anybody else in Chicago have a return timeline from their school?

 

[Chibucks15]

That would be nice...


My school thinks we can get back into hospitals in Chicago in mid June. I think they're very (foolishly) optimistic, since this depends on PPE availability here. Anybody else in Chicago have a return timeline from their school?

If you do please let me know. I'm waiting on several VSAS requests there and I don't have a home program soooo.

My parents live there and from what I gather its all just gonna be whenever Pritzker decides to stop overreacting (especially when he sent his family to go live in wisconsin during this...)

 

[Appellatelove]

That would be nice...


My school thinks we can get back into hospitals in Chicago in mid June. I think they're very (foolishly) optimistic, since this depends on PPE availability here. Anybody else in Chicago have a return timeline from their school?

my school in Chicago is starting back in early June

 

[ohmanwaddup]

My school claims we will start normally on August 3rd, which was our OG start date.

 

[<L>]

That would be nice...


My school thinks we can get back into hospitals in Chicago in mid June. I think they're very (foolishly) optimistic, since this depends on PPE availability here. Anybody else in Chicago have a return timeline from their school?

I have med school friends out there and I haven't heard of any PPE shortages in their hospitals. They've also started releasing their specialty resident off covid floors as of last week so mid-June probably isn't unrealistic.

 

[allantois]

There aren't PPE shortages because hospitals and schools are acting like surgical masks constitute adequate PPE

 

[ciestar]

I wasnt even fit tested at my pre-employment meeting because they didnt have enough at the time.... granted, my program is at a hospital that serves a bunch of nursing homes.

 

[Paris Geller]

My school in the midwest is starting back early June. I'm not sure if this is early or on par with other schools. When are other midwest schools starting back up?

 

[MedScat]

My Philly school is starting the rising M4 (finishing their 3rd year) within 2 weeks and us rising M3s are starting July 8. They said they worked with the PA governors office for us med students to be recognized as essential since we will be essential residents soon enough anyways

 

[RhesusPuffs]

You did not actually just use the Great Depression as an example...wow

You're in for a rude awakening

 

[Welshman]

Our school has delayed rotations for 3rd years again until mid-August, and we're one of the schools that takes step 1 after 3rd year..... So since we have to finish by march for dedicated admin is just chopping off weeks from our rotations, so far they're all just 5 weeks now.

 

[alex.jl1994]

My school also shortened rotations by 1-2 weeks each.

Students have gone back to the wards already, and despite the admin stating multiple that no students would be taking care of COVID patients, they definitely are.

 

[Welshman]

My school also shortened rotations by 1-2 weeks each.

Students have gone back to the wards already, and despite the admin stating multiple that no students would be taking care of COVID patients, they definitely are.

How long were your rotations originally?

 

[Mass Effect]

There is no such thing as not taking care of COVID patients if you're in the hospital. It just isn't a thing. This may be possible in an outpatient clinic that's very aggressive in the screening, but not in the hospital, especially as another wave is expected (and probably sooner rather than later due to the protests).

 

[kraskadva]

There is no such thing as not taking care of COVID patients if you're in the hospital. It just isn't a thing. This may be possible in an outpatient clinic that's very aggressive in the screening, but not in the hospital, especially as another wave is expected (and probably sooner rather than later due to the protests).

And yet every med school admin seems to want to ignore this reality...