Schools starting rotations again

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I think we'll see students back on the wards again. We've gotten enough of a stock of faceshields and masks to have them in clinic. We're even giving them to pts who don't have a face mask when they walk in. The only difference might be that they spend more time outside if patient rooms or in the workroom which is unfortunate, but probably won't be that different for some student.
It would be nice to have those resources. About half our class, those on IM and surg, I believe, went back Monday and the rest of us in a few weeks. We got an email about what to expect, and there was no mention of not seeing COVID patients, but there was considerable detail given to the one mask we get every week and not to throw it away since we can't get another until the next Monday.
 
I’m not trusting our school with my health. Got myself enough masks to not have to reuse them
Unfortunately not really an option in my area. I haven't seen masks anywhere since all this began. And honestly, I'd prefer to just get it and get it over with. I'm unlikely to get horribly ill from it, currently have no contact with the elderly or anyone with comorbidities... With luck, I've already had it and don't know it, so I (probably) can't be a vector to patients or other docs/nurses/etc at the hospital.
 
The Great Depression showed us we can survive an economic meltdown. A Spanish flu pandemic is far more dangerous.

And herd immunity only comes from Vaccination programs.

I think we ‘survived’ the Great Depression by massive investment and productivity ramp forced onto the economy by the Second World War. Don’t know whether a similar prospect looms currently to take us out. All the trillions being currently injected into the economy is going for consumption, not new investment.
 
I think we ‘survived’ the Great Depression by massive investment and productivity ramp forced onto the economy by the Second World War. Don’t know whether a similar prospect looms currently to take us out. All the trillions being currently injected into the economy is going for consumption, not new investment.
If people start boiling shoe leather to make soup im sure we will start doing some other infrastructure investment or public works to get people to work again. I think the future is with UBI, and we are close to the point where automation and the way the economy works where it may be a real alternative.
 
Unfortunately not really an option in my area. I haven't seen masks anywhere since all this began. And honestly, I'd prefer to just get it and get it over with. I'm unlikely to get horribly ill from it, currently have no contact with the elderly or anyone with comorbidities... With luck, I've already had it and don't know it, so I (probably) can't be a vector to patients or other docs/nurses/etc at the hospital.

A lot of residents have ordered them from China and were distributing them to others residents when everything was being saved/limited. Honestly, I'm surprised we have enough now the way they were holding them back even just 2 wks ago.

I've been very impressed with the way our system/admin have handled all this. Very organized, very structured, transparent with lots of communication, and overall professional. I'm very thankful, because I have a lot of friends from med school who have had very different experiences from their hospitals.
 
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A lot of residents have ordered them from China and were distributing them to others residents when everything was being saved/limited. Honestly, I'm surprised we have enough now the way they were holding them back even just 2 wks ago.

I've been very impressed with the way our system/admin have handled all this. Very organized, very structured, transparent with lots of communication, and overall professional. I'm very thankful, because I have a lot of friends from med school who have had very different experiences from their hospitals.

Would you provide some detail about how your system is being organized, transparent, structured and how they are communicating?
 
Would you provide some detail about how your system is being organized, transparent, structured and how they are communicating?

To be clear, this isn't a place that has been hit hard, but I still find it impressive, especially given how hard it is for things to change under normal circumstances. These are some examples of whats happened:

As far as transparency, starting late Feb/early March the president, CMO and head epidemiologist were giving updates by email followed by video conferences with Q&A (in-person in small room, by email, and by real-time chat) by mid-March about most up-to-date info about the virus. Recommendations for updates to PPE use for conservation were relayed regularly. These have continued in a more organized way with daily emails that outline updates in system-wide protocols, the total number of COVID pts in house (adult and peds), number treated to date, percent of positive tests per day and running percentage, number of screening visits, etc. They have also continued the video updates at least twice a week.

In terms of organization, within what seemed like a matter of days (less than a week) in early/mid March, in coordination with the FM department they created a brand new telemedicine Influenza-like illness clinic (along with the associated infrastructure, software, and EPIC updates required) staffed primarily by FM and outpatient IM attendings and midlevels and then later by inpatient IM and peds attendings as well. All traffic and pre-screen for triage to the ED or acute care clinics were filtered to that clinic, and they started out seeing 150 visits a day which peaked to ~400 and is now steady around 150-250 daily. Only people truly experiencing significant SOB went to the ED.

They also simultaneously created a Respiratory clinic housed in the FM clinic, which is in building connected to the hospital, but with a separate entrance for testing as well as evaluation of patients deemed stable enough to not need ED visits, but needing further eval like CXR or lung exam and additional testing (flu, strep, etc.). This was again staffed primarily by FM and IM staff. Eventually that clinic became so busy that it took over the whole of the FM clinic space and the FM clinic was completely transitioned to an off-site clinic (one previously used by FM, IM, and med specialties, which were seeing reduced pt volumes). This transition was literally done within 2 days with surprisingly few bumps.

The ED volume as a result of the telemed clinic and distancing recommendations plummeted allowing for increased isolation of pts (no more hallway beds, etc.). Multiple consult services transitioned to doing video visits with iPads in the ED while COVID tests were pending to minimize exposure/preserve PPE. We all received these durable full face shields in early April.

From the psych department, they implemented telepsych almost right away. They made hard rules for the inpatient units. They developed a volunteer hotline for Healthcare staff in March with regards to stressor associated with the virus. When the hospital started implementing significant visitor restrictions they asked members of the psych department to volunteer around the clock for de-escalation services, which they did readily. These are still going on through at least the end of May (although scaled back due to decreased demand). They developed in coordination with palliative ICU/psych teams for pts/families.

They gave everyone with patient care duties a small extra stipend at the beginning of April. They have been very transparent with us about potential effects of the economy/lost revenue on paychecks, and are trying to create a graduated system (i.e. the people with the highest salaries get the biggest cuts and the people with the lowest including all residents with get very little if any cuts).

They developed and implemented in-house, followed by rapid testing relatively early on (within days of the first other big institutions doing the same).

Honestly it's all been very impressive. There have been hiccups just like anything, and I think we all know how bad and limited testing was early on, but I'm impressed that they've been able to do all that they've done in such a short time, and I'm impressed that they've actually thought of all the things that they did. Its all given me a greater appreciation for the institution. Now certainly, I have my complaints and I believe they could certainly treat house staff better, but that's honestly one area that I don't feel has been an issue in all of this. They've treated us residents better than I expected in the setting of all this.
 
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Honestly Id rather have to take a gap year then have my clinicals be online, what a joke.
Disagree. I’d rather graduate and just get the real “clinicals” underway. Our entire life is going to be clinicals, I’ll be fine losing one year.
 
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Disagree. I’d rather graduate and just get the real “clinicals” underway. Our entire life is going to be clinicals, I’ll be fine losing one year.
I cant imagine starting residency with having barely been in a hospital before though. I had zero clinical background coming into medical school and its obvious when compared to my peers who were techs or even scribes. I know a lot of people say third year is just glorified shadowing but I have my doubts its as useless as some seem to think
 
I cant imagine starting residency with having barely been in a hospital before though. I had zero clinical background coming into medical school and its obvious when compared to my peers who were techs or even scribes. I know a lot of people say third year is just glorified shadowing but I have my doubts its as useless as some seem to think
There is not a lot of responsibility in third year. Most of real learning will occur during residency.
medical school in general is just a big set of hoops to jump through to get to residency.
schools and the lcme know this as well and that’s why they are going to graduate classes on time to get them to residency.
 
There is not a lot of responsibility in third year. Most of real learning will occur during residency.
medical school in general is just a big set of hoops to jump through to get to residency.
schools and the lcme know this as well and that’s why they are going to graduate classes on time to get them to residency.

While most of the learning/work is indeed done at intern year and above, you are still required to be able to hit the ground running in residency, and it's a royal PITA for programs whose residents aren't able to do this. Just the very basic stuff about how a hospital floor functions and flows is something you can't really get a good understanding of unless you experience it first hand.... and that's just medicine in general. The thought of having students picking specialties without having done real rotations in them is a disaster waiting to happen.
 
While most of the learning/work is indeed done at intern year and above, you are still required to be able to hit the ground running in residency, and it's a royal PITA for programs whose residents aren't able to do this. Just the very basic stuff about how a hospital floor functions and flows is something you can't really get a good understanding of unless you experience it first hand.... and that's just medicine in general. The thought of having students picking specialties without having done real rotations in them is a disaster waiting to happen.
i mean yes, it would be nice to know how the floor functions. But realistically speaking every organization is different as far as patient flow and nuances. Its going to be painful to the program, but its not like there is much of a choice if rotations are not available.
 
Our school is preparing for online instruction with at-home shelf exams in case of a second wave. I don’t fully understand how that is comparable...
Is your school starting now with in-person rotations and planning to transition to online if future disruptions require? Or is it 100% online rotations starting now?
 
Is your school starting now with in-person rotations and planning to transition to online if future disruptions require? Or is it 100% online rotations starting now?
It can't be 100% online. My understanding from our dean is that LCME says there are minimum in person clerkship requirements.
 
I cant imagine starting residency with having barely been in a hospital before though. I had zero clinical background coming into medical school and its obvious when compared to my peers who were techs or even scribes. I know a lot of people say third year is just glorified shadowing but I have my doubts its as useless as some seem to think

This is the right attitude. You are expected to hit the ground running first day of intern year. You need to have some hospital experience before then. While schools may be able to get away with sacrificing specialties/subspecialties, every intern needs IM wards and surgical wards under their belt at the very least prior to PGY 1 orientation.
 
It can't be 100% online. My understanding from our dean is that LCME says there are minimum in person clerkship requirements.

My understanding was that schools decide what students must do to meet graduation requirements.
 
I cant imagine starting residency with having barely been in a hospital before though. I had zero clinical background coming into medical school and its obvious when compared to my peers who were techs or even scribes. I know a lot of people say third year is just glorified shadowing but I have my doubts its as useless as some seem to think

Certain parts of 3rd year can be glorified shadowing (I found that this generally happened on the fellowship based services like heme/onc) but I'd argue that most of it is much more involved than that. Sometimes, you actually do have significant responsibility, especially later in the year and in your specialty of interest. It's also just good to learn hospital logistics: disposition planning, how to place a consult, how to answer a page, how to enter orders, how to obtain records etc... Additionally, you develop further practice with patient presentations, patient interactions, formulating a differential diagnosis and writing notes. I would not have been prepared for my acting internship without the in-person rotations nor would I feel the least bit prepared to enter intern year without an acting internship (granted, I hardly feel prepared as it is). I also can't imagine how you could possibly make a decision on a specialty without rotating through at least internal med, pediatrics, obgyn and surgery. I could see psych and neurology going online, although I felt those were beneficial in-person as well.
 
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We're entering one right now.

I'm at risk for COVID...your rights end where my lungs begin.

Thank God our founding fathers had enough foresight to prepare for people like you. Since you obviously haven't read it, allow me to educate you: the constitution does not have an asterisk that says "in case of virus, all is nullified" as you seem to think.
 
Thank God our founding fathers had enough foresight to prepare for people like you. Since you obviously haven't read it, allow me to educate you: the constitution does not have an asterisk that says "in case of virus, all is nullified" as you seem to think.
*sigh* So many history majors and constitutional scholars here.
 
*sigh* So many history majors and constitutional scholars here.

Actually yes, I did major in history. But it doesn't take someone with advanced upper level education to understand the fundamental liberties upon which our republic was founded. Or at least, it didn't use to. "Your rights end where my lungs begin" is about the most ignorant thing someone could say in regards to American principals. I could extrapolate that to mean if you have COPD or lung cancer, then everyone with a fever who is in your proximity ought to be arrested on the spot. I would hope that such a ridiculous statement is in jest, but knowing you and what you usually post on these forums (with respect to politics,) I am sadly quite sure that you meant that statement.
 
Is your school starting now with in-person rotations and planning to transition to online if future disruptions require? Or is it 100% online rotations starting now?
The next M3 class starts end of June, and so far the word is clinicals will start as normal, but they’re prepared to move online in the case of another shelter in place.
 
Thank God our founding fathers had enough foresight to prepare for people like you. Since you obviously haven't read it, allow me to educate you: the constitution does not have an asterisk that says "in case of virus, all is nullified" as you seem to think.

I'm sorry, can someone please point out the passage in the Constitution that protects your right to do away rotations during a pandemic?
 
I'm sorry, can someone please point out the passage in the Constitution that protects your right to do away rotations during a pandemic?

Their point is actually valid for reasons well beyond away rotations, such as using the pandemic as a way to justify a massively expansive government with significant reductions and restrictions to personal liberties and privacy rights due to increased government oversight. It's a huge ongoing political controversy across the world.
 
Their point is actually valid for reasons well beyond away rotations, such as using the pandemic as a way to justify a massively expansive government with significant reductions and restrictions to personal liberties and privacy rights due to increased government oversight. It's a huge ongoing political controversy across the world.

What China does is not really relevant to what we are doing. By and large the federal government has been leaving this to the states. I’m still waiting for a single person to show me exactly where their rights are being violated. All they can ever seem to say is some line about reading the constitution.
 
What China does is not really relevant to what we are doing. By and large the federal government has been leaving this to the states. I’m still waiting for a single person to show me exactly where their rights are being violated. All they can ever seem to say is some line about reading the constitution.

Not talking about China. It's the arguments i got against contact tracing.
 
Their point is actually valid for reasons well beyond away rotations, such as using the pandemic as a way to justify a massively expansive government with significant reductions and restrictions to personal liberties and privacy rights due to increased government oversight. It's a huge ongoing political controversy across the world.

The rest of the world is irrelevant to our governing bodies. In the US, it's the states deciding what happens and there is nothing in the Constitution that forbids them for acting in the public's best interest during a pandemic/public health crisis.

Whose rights were violated? When? How?
 
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Not talking about China. It's the arguments i got against contact tracing.

You literally said across the world. The fact that some countries are using the pandemic as an opportunity to clamp down on their citizens is irrelevant because that’s not what we’re doing.
 
The rest of the world is irrelevant to our governing bodies. In the US, it's the states deciding what happens and there is nothing in the Constitution that forbids them for acting in the public's best interest during a pandemic/public health crisis.

Whose rights were violated? When? How?
You literally said across the world. The fact that some countries are using the pandemic as an opportunity to clamp down on their citizens is irrelevant because that’s not what we’re doing.

Even in some states, there are anti lockdown protests and complaints of state governments infringing on their personal freedoms. It's the extent of government oversight that's causing a lot of frustration. Not to mention, a lot of Americans are apparently uncomfortable with contact tracing.
 
Even in some states, there are anti lockdown protests and complaints of state governments infringing on their personal freedoms. It's the extent of government oversight that's causing a lot of frustration. Not to mention, a lot of Americans are apparently uncomfortable with contact tracing.

People also protest vaccines. That there are people protesting doesn’t mean anything in and of itself. I’m still waiting for an example of how rights are being violated.
 
People also protest vaccines. That there are people protesting doesn’t mean anything in and of itself. I’m still waiting for an example of how rights are being violated.

Except here they're complaining that their freedoms to move or work or live their lives the way they want is being restricted. They're complaining they're forced to isolate even when they didn't contact anyone with the disease and had no symptoms. It's one of the reasons why contact tracing is a good idea but a lot of people don't trust the governments keeping track of them and want to protect their privacy rights.
 
The rest of the world is irrelevant to our governing bodies. In the US, it's the states deciding what happens and there is nothing in the Constitution that forbids them for acting in the public's best interest during a pandemic/public health crisis.

Whose rights were violated? When? How?

Our rights are being violated every day. Covid is another excuse. This example is just the most recent.

 
Even in some states, there are anti lockdown protests and complaints of state governments infringing on their personal freedoms.

There are also ridiculous protestors out there complaining that Sandy Hook was a conspiracy. People are allowed to protest. It doesn't mean (a) they're right or (b) they make any valid points. Not a single one has actually answered how their personal freedom is being infringed upon. As far as I'm concerned they're just a bunch of bored drama queens looking for a fight.
 
There are also ridiculous protestors out there complaining that Sandy Hook was a conspiracy. People are allowed to protest. It doesn't mean (a) they're right or (b) they make any valid points. Not a single one has actually answered how their personal freedom is being infringed upon. As far as I'm concerned they're just a bunch of bored drama queens looking for a fight.

People don't like being trapped and losing their jobs.
 
Except here they're complaining that their freedoms to move or work or live their lives the way they want is being restricted. They're complaining they're forced to isolate even when they didn't contact anyone with the disease and had no symptoms. It's one of the reasons why contact tracing is a good idea but a lot of people don't trust the governments keeping track of them and want to protect their privacy rights.

Again, so what? They don't understand freedom. They're just looking to bitch. How do I know? When was the last time you saw a protest about traffic lights or speed limits? They restrict the way people drive. Your freedoms are bound by the law of the land. That's what give governments the right to ask for a curfew in natural disasters, to order evacuations or restrict beach access before a hurricane, to order people not to get close to the geyser at Yellowstone, order no-travel orders during blizzards, it's why people observe TB patients taking meds. I don't put much weight on the opinion of people who can't grasp that very simple concept.
 
People don't like being trapped and losing their jobs.
At least where I'm at, people are not trapped. Everyone is allowed to go outside to exercise and what not. Losing jobs sucks I'll never deny that but maybe if the US had not been adamant about stripping away social safety nets people would not be as screwed as they are now. I have little sympathy for the bootstrap crowd that is suddenly crying about being unexpectedly out of the job.
 
Our rights are being violated every day. Covid is another excuse. This example is just the most recent.


That's a legitimate violation of the right to privacy. The COVID crap is not.
 
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People don't like being trapped and losing their jobs.

Civics 101: that's not how government works. Nothing is going to be popular among everyone, which is why we don't ask for a show of hands.

It should also be noted that the people you mention aren't in the majority so even if we did ask for a show of hands, they wouldn't get what they wanted.
 
At least where I'm at, people are not trapped. Everyone is allowed to go outside to exercise and what not. Losing jobs sucks I'll never deny that but maybe if the US had not been adamant about stripping away social safety nets people would not be as screwed as they are now. I have little sympathy for the bootstrap crowd that is suddenly crying about being unexpectedly out of the job.
Civics 101: that's not how government works. Nothing is going to be popular among everyone, which is why we don't ask for a show of hands.

It should also be noted that the people you mention aren't in the majority so even if we did ask for a show of hands, they wouldn't get what they wanted.

I guess I can't trust the covid response efforts seeing the lack of coordination across local, state and federal response. If the governments didn't transform the response into a disaster and acted sensibly like South Korea and New Zealand, none of this would be an issue.
 
I guess I can't trust the covid response efforts seeing the lack of coordination across local, state and federal response. If the governments didn't transform the response into a disaster and acted sensibly like South Korea and New Zealand, none of this would be an issue.
I can 100% agree with that. The Fed needed to step up and not leave it up to 50 different governors. It was a foolish decision and given the fact that its an election year I'm shocked this was the case. You'd think an unpopular incumbent would want to appear strong, especially to his base. Now he has just given more ammo to his enemies.
 
SMH I had to buy my N95s on eBay I got nine for like $229. All because my work only gave us one.
Do you think hospitals will be sued after all this is done for everything they've been pulling? IE cutting pay, not providing PPE, etc?
 
Do you think hospitals will be sued after all this is done for everything they've been pulling? IE cutting pay, not providing PPE, etc?
CDC issued very broad ineffective guidlines that effectively gave hospitals some coverage surrounding PPE, like the reuse ppe , one mask a week etc. This will provide some legal cover to the hospitals considering they were following guidelines laid out by CDC. Not sure if OSHA agreed with them.

What would be the basis of bringing a lawsuit centered around cutting pay ?
 
CDC issued very broad ineffective guidlines that effectively gave hospitals some coverage surrounding PPE, like the reuse ppe , one mask a week etc. This will provide some legal cover to the hospitals considering they were following guidelines laid out by CDC. Not sure if OSHA agreed with them.

What would be the basis of bringing a lawsuit centered around cutting pay ?
There isn’t. It’s classic America to immediately want to sue if literally anything bad happens. There would need to be proof of wrongdoing not just CEOs being terrible people under the guise of capitalism
 
CDC issued very broad ineffective guidlines that effectively gave hospitals some coverage surrounding PPE, like the reuse ppe , one mask a week etc. This will provide some legal cover to the hospitals considering they were following guidelines laid out by CDC. Not sure if OSHA agreed with them.

What would be the basis of bringing a lawsuit centered around cutting pay ?

It's possible some of their contracts people didn't dot their i's and cross their Ts in asking for pay reductions, but that's probably just going to be more money for the lawers.

As for indemnity for the hospitals, you'd better hope so. Lawsuits absolutely will trickle down to providers after all this.
 
It's possible some of their contracts people didn't dot their i's and cross their Ts in asking for pay reductions, but that's probably just going to be more money for the lawers.

As for indemnity for the hospitals, you'd better hope so. Lawsuits absolutely will trickle down to providers after all this.
Im still having a difficult time figuring out the grounds for a lawsuit. A lot of states are at will employers, there is no large union for standardized contracts. And usually contracts have clauses for calamities or decreases in reimbursement based on volume.
 
Again, so what? They don't understand freedom. They're just looking to bitch. How do I know? When was the last time you saw a protest about traffic lights or speed limits? They restrict the way people drive. Your freedoms are bound by the law of the land. That's what give governments the right to ask for a curfew in natural disasters, to order evacuations or restrict beach access before a hurricane, to order people not to get close to the geyser at Yellowstone, order no-travel orders during blizzards, it's why people observe TB patients taking meds. I don't put much weight on the opinion of people who can't grasp that very simple concept.

Making the choice to drive and then subsequently having to adhere to the rules of the behavior you're making the choice to engage in is a lot different than government shutting down businesses, telling business owners they can't have patrons or make sales, forcing places of employment to shut down leading to millions of people on unemployment, and dictating who is and who isn't allowed to go to work and make an income/provide for themselves. You know what will kill more than COVID-19? Starvation and loss of shelter. Forcing a society that has always functioned as prioritizing providing for yourself and not relying on authority bodies to do that for you into a system where you absolutely have no means to provide for yourself and must submit to government support (e.g. file for unemployment and survive off that for the foreseeable future) is entirely different than rules created around certain activities that you don't have to participate in if you don't like it.

Unfortunately, I think the reality of this whole thing has escaped a lot of initial intentions. The reality, as I've heard from multiple hospital workers (nurses, clinicians alike) is that there is a huge issue with artificial inflation and hospital financial stress that is making cases and deaths attributed to COVID-19 seem much more severe than it is in reality which feeds into these extended policies. For instance, I hear constant stories about how doctors are being pressured into signing off COVID-19 as cause of death in terminally ill or critically ill patients with other comorbitidies as those hospitals receive funding on the amount of patients dying from COVID-19 - when in any other case, a patient with stage IV cancer might catch the flu and perhaps die from exacerbated effects of the flu wouldn't have cause of death: flu on their certificate, it would be cause of death: X cancer; but in this case, always is written off as COVID-19. Or I've heard stories of admitting more patients than what is even necessary, non-critical COVID-19 patients, as hospitals receive funding and supplies based on the amount of cases they actively have etc.

This issue has become much more complicated than "protect the vulnerable" as it has transformed into something much more than that. There are so many politics and undercurrents at play that that baseline goal is not really the primary issue anymore. Furthermore, it is quite impossible to eradicate infectious disease with R=2 transmission rates off the face of the planet just by keeping everyone physically away from each other by arbitrary distances that are variable amongst the experts (is it 6ft or 10ft that COVID-19 can travel, no one knows). We've never in the history of time quarantined healthy people - anyone who really thinks all of this is simply to protect the vulnerable or that this is a sustainable solution for grander society and maintaining global economic systems should really try diversifying their research sources.
 
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