Second Case of Ebola in Texas

[shopsteward]

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As far as I know, all the nurse in Maine has done to "break" her quarantine is go on a bike ride. How on earth is that going to pass Ebola on to anyone? Nor does it seem that there is a legally enforceable "quarantine" order against her - at least, the Maine police don't seem to think there is.

Magna Carta, anyone? Habeus corpus? State government trying to imprison a US citizen without due process? Civil servants in a panic is never a pretty sight, and from the moment this nurse returned to the USA there seems to have been nothing from the various governmental bodies involved but the sort of panic, bungling, indecision and overreaction which would have the most reasonable person thinking "Sod it, it's a beautiful day, and taking a bike ride to celebrate being back home in the USA is not going to do anyone any harm."

 

[BuzzPhreed]

shopsteward,

Did you get your flu vaccine yet? Why or why not?

 

[Noyac]

[QUOTE="shopsteward, post: 15842218, member: 337370]
Magna Carta, anyone? Habeus corpus? State government trying to imprison a US citizen without due process? Civil servants in a panic is never a pretty sight, and from the moment this nurse returned to the USA there seems to have been nothing from the various governmental bodies involved but the sort of panic, bungling, indecision and overreaction which would have the most reasonable person thinking "Sod it, it's a beautiful day, and taking a bike ride to celebrate being back home in the USA is not going to do anyone any harm."[/QUOTE]
We quaranteened the Apollo 11 crew for 21 days when they returned.

 

[Noyac]

Shopsteward,
Please read:
http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

 

[shopsteward]

Shopsteward,
Please read:
http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

Yes, but where is the suspicion that this nurse has got Ebola? She's been in contact with Ebola patients, but that by itself is not enough to say she has got Ebola, or even that she is likely to have Ebola. There is a fairly remote possibility that she has Ebola. MSF are saying that none out of 700 international staff who have returned healthy to their own countries, only one (the doctor in New York) has turned out to have Ebola, so the odds of this symptomless nurse having Ebola are low. Where is the evidence on which the State should be asking for a quarantine order and on which a court could grant a quarantine order?

We quaranteened the Apollo 11 crew for 21 days when they returned.

In retrospect, fairly silly. But presumably it was thought out before hand, and the astronauts knew about it in advance and agreed to it. A very different situation.

 

[shopsteward]

shopsteward,

Did you get your flu vaccine yet? Why or why not?

Forgive me for being stupid. What is the relevance of this question?

 

[BuzzPhreed]

Forgive me for being stupid.

You're forgiven.

What is the relevance of this question?

Well, you raised the "civil liberty" issue. And, the point is, that in most places for healthcare workers the flu vaccine is now a mandated condition of employment. In other words you don't have a choice. You have to get it. Or, you have to show a valid reason why you shouldn't (e.g. history of Guillian-Barre with a prior vaccine exposure, known true allergy to the vaccine or vehicle, etc.). If not, good luck keeping your employment. Is that right?

Many people take objection to having a mandate to an invasive procedure (it requires you accept a minimally painful injection) under the auspices of loss of free choice, especially if you're not sick and not sure if you're going to get sick. This is done under the auspices in medical ethics within the concepts of "autonomy" vs. "the greater good" and "protecting the herd". It has been determined that the overall imposition on the individual is far less than the potential imposition on society.

That's the relevance. If you don't have a problem with the mandated requirement of getting the flu vaccine, then you shouldn't have a problem in principle with the quarantine of suspected infected individuals.

 

[pgg]

As far as I know, all the nurse in Maine has done to "break" her quarantine is go on a bike ride. How on earth is that going to pass Ebola on to anyone?

It won't. She doesn't need to be quarantined. The CDC agrees that she doesn't need to be quarantined. That's not the point though.

Magna Carta, anyone?

I'll see your reference to a 1215 A.D. document and raise you 549 A.D. when the Byzantine empire enacted a law to forcibly isolate people suspected of coming from plague-infested areas.

We can back up further and talk about lepers and Leviticus 13:54 or the late greats Hippocrates and Galen (who thought disease was caused by miasmas floating in bad air, worse around sick people) and advocated separation of sick people from not-sick people.

We've got 1000s of years of history of quarantines. People who believed disease was caused by demons and bad air submitted to their 40 days.

the most reasonable person thinking "Sod it, it's a beautiful day, and taking a bike ride to celebrate being back home in the USA is not going to do anyone any harm."

The harm it does is set a precedent for individuals violating government health officials' quarantine orders because they think they know better.

I've posted here about 73 times how I think Ebola poses essentially no threat whatsoever to the US or other modern nations but that doesn't mean there isn't another pathogen waiting to tear through them. If and when that day comes, I don't want to see smug attention ****** pulling a Kaci on a bicycle.


Abuse of quarantine orders is absolutely a tool (one of many) an oppressive government can use to silence or imprison dissenters. It bears watching. We're clearly nowhere near that, however. I don't think we're even within visible distance of any slippery slopes.

But presumably it was thought out before hand, and the astronauts knew about it in advance and agreed to it. A very different situation.

Nurse Kaci probably has a better understanding of germ theory (probably) than ancient sailors who carried Yersinia around the Mediterranean but it's a little bit of a stretch to me to believe even she never considered the possibility that by going to Africa to be a smiling patient advocate (or whatever the hell she really did there) she might catch Ebola and/or at some point be subject to quarantine.

Unless you're arguing that she's even dumber than I think she is 🙂 which is a point I'd possibly concede.



So apparently Nurse Kaci won in court and will not be quarantined any further. Which is fine. I have no real complaint about the decision. If she wasn't the attention ***** she is, however, she'd have put off her bike ride and her trip from NJ to Maine until after she won. I could respect a person who complied with a quarantine order while fighting it in court.

She says she's "humbled" by the decision. No, she's not. She's disappointed that her 15 minutes are up. I bet we keep hearing from her though.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

Unless you're arguing that she's even dumber than I think she is 🙂 which is a point I'd possibly concede.

Just wait until she finishes her CRNA training and comes to Hospital Near You™ to "practice" anesthesia..

Welcome to the future. The BuzzFeed generation. If it's longer than 140 characters, TL;DR and BLUF. (Google them.)

 

[shopsteward]

You're forgiven.



Well, you raised the "civil liberty" issue. And, the point is, that in most places for healthcare workers the flu vaccine is now a mandated condition of employment. In other words you don't have a choice. You have to get it. Or, you have to show a valid reason why you shouldn't (e.g. history of Guillian-Barre with a prior vaccine exposure, known true allergy to the vaccine or vehicle, etc.). If not, good luck keeping your employment. Is that right?

Many people take objection to having a mandate to an invasive procedure (it requires you accept a minimally painful injection) under the auspices of loss of free choice, especially if you're not sick and not sure if you're going to get sick. This is done under the auspices in medical ethics within the concepts of "autonomy" vs. "the greater good" and "protecting the herd". It has been determined that the overall imposition on the individual is far less than the potential imposition on society.

That's the relevance. If you don't have a problem with the mandated requirement of getting the flu vaccine, then you shouldn't have a problem in principle with the quarantine of suspected infected individuals.

Well, at least I now understand the point you were trying to make. The reason I didn't understand the relevance is that it is a completely irrelevant point. The mandatory flu vaccine is an employment issue, which makes it a contractual issue between a health care worker and their employer. Legally, that is a completely different issue from the federal or state government abrogating the civil rights of a citizen without prior notice, without evidence of illness, and without evidence of potential harm.

 

[shopsteward]

It won't. She doesn't need to be quarantined. The CDC agrees that she doesn't need to be quarantined. That's not the point though.
[...]
The harm it does is set a precedent for individuals violating government health officials' quarantine orders because they think they know better.
[...]
So apparently Nurse Kaci won in court and will not be quarantined any further. Which is fine. I have no real complaint about the decision. If she wasn't the attention ***** she is, however, she'd have put off her bike ride and her trip from NJ to Maine until after she won. I could respect a person who complied with a quarantine order while fighting it in court....]

I've no brief to defend the nurse, but I can understand her reaction to the authorities cocking the whole situation up so thoroughly. They panicked and overreacted, failed to follow the best available medical advice, tried to take away the rights of a citizen without due process or any evidence of an actual need to do so, failed to demonstrate to the court that the situation met the necessary legal standard when they did finally try to get a quarantine order, and ended up bringing the whole system into disrepute. A government in a panic and taking it out on their own citizens is a horrible thing, and a worrying harbinger for the future.

 

[jwk]

I've no brief to defend the nurse, but I can understand her reaction to the authorities cocking the whole situation up so thoroughly. They panicked and overreacted, failed to follow the best available medical advice, tried to take away the rights of a citizen without due process or any evidence of an actual need to do so, failed to demonstrate to the court that the situation met the necessary legal standard when they did finally try to get a quarantine order, and ended up bringing the whole system into disrepute. A government in a panic and taking it out on their own citizens is a horrible thing, and a worrying harbinger for the future.

All she had to do was to be reasonable, or at least ACT like the caring and compassionate caregiver she purports to be. Now she just looks like a selfish and self-serving b*tch, and unfortunately for her, the court decision will do absolutely nothing to change that opinion in the minds of the public.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

The reason I didn't understand the relevance is that it is a completely irrelevant point.

No, it's not at all.

You can be fired in an "at will" state for refusing to get the vaccine. You have no immediate protection under the law. And, you will have potentially no legal recourse. The courts can uphold the employer's right of you to be fired, depending on which judge this is argued in front of. So, this makes it as much of a legal issue as anything we're seeing with the wishy-washy government policy-on-the-fly right now with Ebola. You are effectively "quarantined" from your job and way to maintain gainful employment.

There are pending lawsuits about this now. This is very parallel, as we saw with Kaci Hickox where the judge let her out of her mandatory quarantine. It will be settled in the courts.

 

[shopsteward]

No, it's not at all.

You can be fired in an "at will" state for refusing to get the vaccine. You have no immediate protection under the law. And, you will have potentially no legal recourse. The courts can uphold the employer's right of you to be fired, depending on which judge this is argued in front of. So, this makes it as much of a legal issue as anything we're seeing with the wishy-washy government policy-on-the-fly right now with Ebola. You are effectively "quarantined" from your job and way to maintain gainful employment.

There are pending lawsuits about this now. This is very parallel, as we saw with Kaci Hickox where the judge let her out of her mandatory quarantine. It will be settled in the courts.

Still very different, legally speaking. "At will" employment contracts are between two individuals not between the individual and the government. Private law not public law. Someone who does not have the flu vaccine is not "quarantined" in any sense: their rights as a citizen are not taken from them. Lawyers in a case arguing about an employer's right to require a flu vaccine will not be quoting quarantine laws in their arguments.

Also, my understanding is that Kaci Hickox was never subject to a legally binding quarantine, and the decision of the judge was that there was no justification for her rights as a citizen to be taken away from her, not that she be "let out" of quarantine.

 

[deleted171991]

Ebola and Quarantine / Isolation Laws. What is the Government Allowed to Do?

Federal isolation and quarantine are authorized by Executive Order of the President. The President can update this list by Executive Order.

Next, states are empowered to control the spread of disease within its borders. State laws can enforce isolation and quarantine. In most states, breaking a quarantine is a criminal misdemeanor. (Breaking a federal quarantine order is punishable by fines and imprisonment…)

The last time large scale isolation and quarantine was enforced for communicable disease was Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918-1919. In 1963, a passenger arriving into the United States was placed under a federal quarantine order as a suspected case of smallpox. In 2007, a traveler with drug-resistant TB was placed in isolation.