1. It’s Test Prep Week! Visit the Test Prep Forums to learn about test prep products and services, ask questions in test-related AMA threads, take advantage of exclusive SDN member discounts, and enter to win free stuff!
Whether you’re preparing for the USMLE, COMLEX, NBDE or APMLE, Test Prep Week Exhibitors can help you ace your boards!

PhD/PsyD Second Doctorate

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by TheEnemyWithin, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. SDN is made possible through member donations, sponsorships, and our volunteers. Learn about SDN's nonprofit mission.

Pertaining to the didactic phase of a doctoral program, can online students meet the same standard?

  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    91.7%
  1. TheEnemyWithin

    TheEnemyWithin

    3
    0
    Sep 13, 2017
    NY
    Hey, everyone! A little bit of background: I am currently finishing my didactic phase and entering my research and dissertation next year, PhD Forensic Psychology; I expect to be finished/conferred sometime in 2019. Immediately following this, I intend to enroll in an APA-accredited PhD Clinical Psych program. My rationale is due to having been enrolled in an online PhD Clinical Psych program and, after realizing that it was no APA accredited, I transferred to Forensic Psych because I do not believe in wasting work that was already performed. Also, I would like to be able to utilize the APPIC system for practicum/internship/residency placement. I find it abhorrent that the faculty at the non-APA accredited schools do not assist or have the infrastructure for this. The result would be a candidate remaining an ABD or having to transfer to a different school for, usually, an entirely new doctorate. I wanted to get other peoples' perspective on this. On one end, people ask me, 'why not just transfer to the Clinical Psych program now?' while on the other (and this is my train of thought), 'you might as well finish the program you've already invested so much time with'

    Is anyone else in a similar situation? Oh, by the way, there is an online school that has been APA accredited for over 20 years and 2 other programs that will gain accreditation next year. The tide is turning. Some of these professors come from Ivy League institutions, as well. As pertains to the didactic phase of any degree of study, I don't see an issue with this. I earned my first masters degree from an Ivy League school (Cornell University). Honestly, I don't see the difference as long as the information is being learned. Following my time at four different traditional schools, Ithaca College, Cornell University, Columbus State University and Arizona State University, resulting in my BA, MS, and MAEd, the only difference I perceive is that I can do so much more with my time. Obviously, as pertains to practicum and internship, the candidate has to work in the field. What are peoples' thoughts on APA-accredited online programs? Just to clarify, I am speaking of online study in the didactic phase, NOT the practicum or internship phases - this wouldn't be possible. Therefore, these programs are ACTUALLY hybrid programs.

    Final thoughts - Gotta love those GradPlus loans!! : / #studentloandebt
     
  2. SDN Members don't see this ad. About the ads.
  3. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    9,167
    2,587
    Apr 6, 2007
    Is there a question here?

    Why?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  4. singasongofjoy

    singasongofjoy 2+ Year Member

    496
    320
    Dec 4, 2014
    Psychologist
    If the question is what do people think about those specific online programs you're referencing, a quick search of the forums would probably pull up quite a bit of info. But I'm not sure if that was the question or not.
     
  5. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist 2+ Year Member

    801
    436
    Mar 2, 2013
    Psychologist
    Faculty
    None of what you mention (faculty from ivy league, more programs doing this, etc.) means that the programs are of equal quality to B&M doctoral programs. Quite frankly, they aren't. Part of this is because coursework is such a minimal part of doctoral education, and so not being part of active research labs/brown bags/guest lectures/etc makes you less exposed to the material. APA accreditation is the minimum bar for what is acceptable, and it is pretty low in my opinion. You won't find a lot of folks on this forum (if any?) who advocate for programs that consistently produce less desirable outcomes (licensure rates, EPPP pass rates, match rates, etc.), particularly given the high costs associated with those poor outcomes.

    I think that was the question?

    also
    that is just called having a program with people who don't graduate. ABD isn't a thing you write down... although I did hear about someone who tried to claim that as their title: John Doe, ABD.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  6. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    9,167
    2,587
    Apr 6, 2007
    In reality it means "All But the Doctorate"....which is like, ya know, kinda important on the job market.
     
  7. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center 7+ Year Member

    1,544
    1,309
    Aug 2, 2010
    Psychologist
    They don't exist, to my knowledge.

    Edited: No others (aside from Fielding) exist.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  8. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center 7+ Year Member

    1,544
    1,309
    Aug 2, 2010
    Psychologist
    You're not just there to passively acquire information. That is not the point of graduate school.
     
  9. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist 7+ Year Member

    6,568
    4,230
    Feb 15, 2009
    Somewhere
    Psychologist
    0.
    I thought Fielding was, or at least used to be. Although, from the few people I've met that "attended" there, they should not be.
     
  10. PSYDR

    PSYDR Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    1,875
    1,049
    Dec 18, 2005
    1) You need to work on your writing skills. If you write like this in a professional arena, you'll be damaging your reputation. In a forensic context, this would be horrible.

    2) A degree without a license is useless. Especially an expensive degree.

    3) Whether you see the difference in educational models or not is substantially less important than if others do. Other peoples' opinions about a program > your opinion about a program. Kinda a thing you should have learned about in test construction. And from interacting with other professionals.

    4) Think about this: You're trying to get into a profession which requires face to face experience. And your program doesn't provide that. One might think that has implications.

    5) No one in the profession cares if you find you have free time. Training is inconvenient.
     
  11. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    9,167
    2,587
    Apr 6, 2007
    Made me think of this.

     
  12. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist 2+ Year Member

    801
    436
    Mar 2, 2013
    Psychologist
    Faculty
    This is why students/aspiring students who are not in the field are not aware of what should be considered standards for practice. They just don't have a good sense of what 'should' be learned.
     
  13. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    373
    59
    Jul 9, 2006
    All But Dissertation
     
  14. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    9,167
    2,587
    Apr 6, 2007
    but you don't have a doctorate without the dissertation finished, so it really means "I don't have my doctorate yet, but I like conveying my progress toward it by making up a useless acronym."
     
    psych.meout and Justanothergrad like this.
  15. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    373
    59
    Jul 9, 2006
    sure, but the useless acronym stands for "all but dissertation."
     
  16. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center 7+ Year Member

    1,544
    1,309
    Aug 2, 2010
    Psychologist
    All right, I looked it up. APA sets a very low bar at one year in full-time residence as a minimum standard for accreditation. So, in the hypothetical, 2/3 of your "academic years" could be distance-based. o_O

    I just don't know how to wrap my head around this. I always spent more time in my lab and/or practicum sites than on didactics. What do they do in these programs?
     
    Therapist4Chnge likes this.
  17. singasongofjoy

    singasongofjoy 2+ Year Member

    496
    320
    Dec 4, 2014
    Psychologist
    You might see it as "not wasting work that was already performed" by transferring to a Forensic program, but if what you ultimately want to do requires an APA approved clinical program then it seems to me rather like you've wasted both time and money that you could've spent on a (different, better) clinical program. Sometimes you've got to just cut your losses. Too late for that now but something to keep in mind for the future. Regarding your comment about it being abhorrent that faculty at non-APA accredited schools not assisting in match - well, that's one of the reasons they are not accredited. As others have said, APA accreditation is a relatively low bar. I'm still not sure what your initial question was, but I think it is time for you to take some time to seriously introspect about what you really want to do with the rest of your life. If anything worth doing is worth doing well, you're going to want to pursue GOOD training that is recognized by others as such. As previously mentioned, what others think about a program is ultimately more important than your n=1 opinion, particularly since at times we can all be great at rationalizing an easier choice to ourselves (e.g., online programs). So figure out what you ultimately want to do and find a way to get there that is going to give you good training and also not leave you sinking in debt forever. That might involve not jumping straight into another PhD program hot off the heels of your current one.
     
    MamaPhD likes this.
  18. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist 7+ Year Member

    6,568
    4,230
    Feb 15, 2009
    Somewhere
    Psychologist
    Fool gullible students into paying an exorbitant amount of money for a nearly useless degree.
     
    PSYDR likes this.
  19. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center 7+ Year Member

    1,544
    1,309
    Aug 2, 2010
    Psychologist
    But I'm really curious to know what a "day in the life" is like when you don't do all the face-to-face, hands-on things that most of us associate with grad school. Do you just come home from your day job and plug in for a couple of hours?

    Fielding is the only program like this (you were right, it's still accredited) and 40-something percent of its students got into some kind of APA-accredited internship in the last two years. In the big picture that's a dismal outcome for any program, but I'm really curious how they managed to not do worse. So many questions...
     
  20. PSYDR

    PSYDR Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    1,875
    1,049
    Dec 18, 2005
    IMO: They're not gullible. It's a personality trait.

    Give up something now to get a reward later? Naw. Have the rules apply to you? Not necessary. Programs cost a ton? Probably means you'll earn a bunch so that's of no concern. Stats say negative things? Anecdotes about outliers are more indicative out your outcome. People say negative things about the identity? Use signifiers from the professor's identities which do not come from the same training.
     
  21. psych.meout

    psych.meout

    667
    314
    Oct 5, 2015
    Would you want your psychologist to have completed part of their training online? Why or why not?

    Would you want your physician to have completed part of their training online? Why or why not?

    Would you be willing to disclose to your patients before every session that you completed part of your training online? Why or why not?

    What are you doing with all that remaining time? The rest of us in traditional programs are using it towards other, related educational opportunities, especially research. Is this what you're doing?
    I wonder if any personality traits correlate with gullibleness. High in Openness and Agreeableness, but low in Conscientiousness?
     
  22. cara susanna

    cara susanna 7+ Year Member

    5,196
    1,293
    Feb 10, 2008
    East Coast
    I can't imagine practicum being separate from graduate training.
     
  23. psych.meout

    psych.meout

    667
    314
    Oct 5, 2015
    Yeah, how would a program know what kind of training you're receiving and remediate any problems as early as possible?

    It seems like a huge public hazard by unleashing providers with little consistent training oversight onto the public.
     
  24. PSYDR

    PSYDR Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    1,875
    1,049
    Dec 18, 2005

    Sort of. In the 5 factor model, openness is correlated with iq. IQ is correlated with suggestibility. Agreeableness is correlated with gullibility.
     
    psych.meout likes this.
  25. Justanothergrad

    Justanothergrad Counseling Psychologist 2+ Year Member

    801
    436
    Mar 2, 2013
    Psychologist
    Faculty
    I assume mass netflix binge. But like, worse than I would when I was in grad school.

    You don't need to walk the OE domain to IQ to correlate it with suggestibility even. Tellegen's absorption scale has a pretty strong relationship on its own.
     
    PSYDR likes this.
  26. MamaPhD

    MamaPhD Psychologist, Academic Medical Center 7+ Year Member

    1,544
    1,309
    Aug 2, 2010
    Psychologist
    The PGY-1's these days tell me they hardly ever go to class. They just stream all their lectures. But I kind of appreciate having been in grad school when using Netflix meant getting red paper envelopes in the mail, and "on demand" meant leaving the house to go to Blockbuster.
     
  27. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    21,090
    1,994
    Oct 6, 2006
    The Beach
    Faculty
    Driving to Blockbuster was my regular study break activity.
     
  28. PSYDR

    PSYDR Psychologist 10+ Year Member

    1,875
    1,049
    Dec 18, 2005
    Good to know. I'm not a personality psychologist. Only know about suggestibility from the forensic aspect.
     

Share This Page