PhD/PsyD Second Doctorate

[PsychedUp313]

Online doctoral degree = trash

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[erg923]

Online doctoral degree = trash

 

[NeuroTrope]

Hey y'all, haven't posted here in years but just stumbled through the forums this morning (updated privacy policy brought me here) and seeing this puts a big old nostalgic smile on my face.

Nice to see the regulars still hashing it out with newcomers who might be a bit too idealistic about their unconventional paths and pontificate how everyone else is wrong. Talk about an open forum, no wonder Caesar crushed the Senate (there's a little fascist humor for you, never mind what was rendered unto dear Caesar a few years later...) Now that I'm a bit more seasoned in the professional world I figure I might as well chime in my 2 cents, worthless as they may seem...

Enemywithin, you seem like a straight-shooter. The type of guy who isn't afraid to stand up in the middle of a college lecture (at Cornell! Nice job!) and stand tall against the incipient shills aimed to poison the minds of our dear future generations. You know that those simmering in the swamp are brewing a concoction of lies and liberal agendas designed to propagate the status quo: keep the proletariat immersed in banal distractions while while the few elite snicker back with their cigars and pizza parties and secretly fund Elon Musk's brain-to-AI immortality project so that they may one day live amongst our hard drives in perpetuity. And so to fight against such tyranny, you have adopted a no-nonsense persona that cuts through the BS (and the fat, and the blue hair) and gets to the goddamn point, right? I guess I should practice what I preach and so...

The bottom line is, no matter how appealing the shining gem at the end of the quest is, no matter how shiny it may actually BE (and trust me, it's not that shiny...well, sometimes it is, if you look at it in the right light...) the path is a terrible, rocky, Indiana Jones deathtrap kind of path...and that is a good thing! You want to avoid the shiny ivory path that some for-profit institutions offer, if only because the path that seems so, so much easier is the one that has the real snakes and whips along the way. Never mind the exorbitant fee at the start (and toll gates...oh those toll gates...), you are setting yourself up for a ride that leads to no gem...just an endless chasm where you will fall screaming and writhing in eternal torment...or at least debt.

Too much hyperbole? Well, let me restate in plainer language. I know and have worked with a number of talented, intelligent, and passionate individuals who have gone through pay-as-you-play route in psychology. While this model was originally designed to mimic medical school, it fails primarily because most psychologists do not earn what physicians earn once they land their first job. Physicians themselves sometimes struggle with it, but to be someone who is $200,000 in debt and their first job pays $45,000 (maybe benefits? who knows) is just a daunting outlook. My colleagues, mind you, are neuropsychologists and in a big city the top ones can earn 300-500k a year. My peers will probably be okay one day but right now they are struggling. Their families are struggling, their kids are struggling, etc. etc. They aren't indigent and they won't be on the streets, but it is a hard path. Hard, but doable, right?

So what's the problem? All of these folks went to top-tier PsyD programs in my city and were accepted to one of the two top postdoctoral programs in neuropsychology. So I consider them head and shoulders (and knees and toes) at or above 90% of the folks who graduate with doctoral degrees in psychology. This is a select few. The chosen, perhaps, or at least chosen by the arbitrary flick of some eye-glazed faculty flipping through internship applications (don't look at me now). As for those who attend the bottom-rung programs (and let me call them bottom-rung, Enemy, because we should be friends and I don't want to BS you like some college professor), they simply don't get to do much with their degrees. In other words, debt + limited job prospects = bad situation.

Yes there are exceptions, yes we all know that one cousin of that guy at Brown (which is no Cornell mind you) who got their unaccredited PhD at the Mesa Southwestern University or whatever and now is making half a million a year doing guest lectures about the power of "HEALL" (Healthy Eating And Lizards...Lizards!). Maybe you are one of them, Enemy. If so I would happily buy a ticket to your upcoming seminars if you happen to pass through my neck of the woods (PM me dates when they happen). But really, this isn't the path you want to go on. Take it from a guy who is the product of Republican AND Democrat parents. I'm unbiased and really just am going on practical and common sense here. Fair and balanced, wouldn't you say?

Or go do what you want. This is a free country after all. 'Murica!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Any post that can include Indiana Jones, The Liberal Agenda, and Lizard (People?) is worth reading twice.

 

[erg923]

and Lizard (People?) is worth reading twice.

Lol. Huh?

 

[foreverbull]

Doctoral training is not meant for everyone in every situation. The minimum standard set by the field is full-time practice.

Would you want your surgeon to only go to school part-time online? They decided they knew what they needed instead of leaders in their field. How about an Oncologist managing a family member’s Cancer treatment that worked full-time in another profession and only did schooling on the side?

This is key.
Those who earned the title of "psychologist" didn't choose to cut corners because they don't have time to make the sacrifice to do full-time work in an accredited program. They made the sacrifice, devoting 4-6 full years to learning, research, and practice. I knew several folks who had families AND once had full-time jobs who made sacrifices to go through an APA-accredited program like the rest of us to get appropriate training. They dropped their full-time jobs and came to class, did assistantships, completed practica, and did research. It was hard for them, but they were committed and driven like the rest of us. That's is what is necessary in our field to receive comprehensive training.

If your mental health is suffering, do you really want to see someone who cut corners because they didn't think it was worth it to get comprehensive/immersive training?

Things like this can do real damage to our field that already struggles to have a legitimate place amongst the sciences. If you can BS your way through and everyone willing to pay can get in to online/hybrid programs for "busy" learners, how much is that doctorate really worth and how well are clients really being served?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Lol. Huh?

I wish I were kidding.

Back in April of 2013, Public Policy Polling conducted a poll about conspiracy theories like aliens, an impostor Paul McCartney, and, of course, lizard people. And the polling organization found that 4 percent of Americans believe in lizard people, while another 7 percent were unsure. Taken to its absurd extreme, that would imply around 12 million Americans, Philip Bump, a lizard person scholar and writer at the Washington Post, found. (Public Policy Polling is a serious outlet, but it's also known for some trolly polls, so these results have to be taken with a grain of salt.)

The full VOX article is here....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vo...371/lizard-people-conspiracy-theory-explainer

 

[smalltownpsych]

Can the lizard people get an online PsyD and call themselves psychologists too?

 

[WisNeuro]

Can the lizard people get an online PsyD and call themselves psychologists too?

I believe it's state dependent. Some states still have a ways to go in recognizing Lizard People rights.

 

[psych.meout]

I also don’t like grilled cheese.

You monster!!!

 

[smalltownpsych]

I believe it's state dependent. Some states still have a ways to go in recognizing Lizard People rights.

I’m thinking California is way ahead of the curve on that one.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Just so I understand the process: we get asked our opinion, give it, then get a long response about why our opinions are wrong?

I also don’t like grilled cheese.

Well, when statements are intended to insult or more on the lines of, 'what you are doing is wrong', the tone and timbre of the conversation changes.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Doctoral training is not meant for everyone in every situation. The minimum standard set by the field is full-time practice at an APA-acred program, an APA-acred internship, and post-doc. It needs to be a higher bar IMHO, but the field is having a race to the bottom bc of for-profit businesses lobbying for “alternative paths”...much like “alternative facts” I fear.

Would you want your surgeon to only go to school part-time online? They decided they knew what they needed instead of leaders in their field. How about an Oncologist managing a family member’s Cancer treatment that worked full-time in another profession and only did schooling on the side?

As for the former paragraph, there are actually schools that meet the requirements set forth by the APAs but do not apply for accreditation. Mind you, the only 'APA-accredited' programs are counselling, school counselling and clinical psychology. Heightening the bar? Sure. If there were an added requirement and I was not yet grandfathered in by the old rules/my continuing ed did not cover it, I would certainly go back and perform necessary coursework, as should everyone not meeting the standard at the point of licensure. It happens - in a year that policy changes yielding a new requirement to be met, the people who thought they were done have to complete the new element of training.

Oh, yes, I was a ditch-digger prior to my program. I just figured.... really how different is digging in peoples' brains than digging dirt, ya know....

 

[PsyDr]

Well, when statements are intended to insult or more on the lines of, 'what you are doing is wrong', the tone and timbre of the conversation changes.

There is a difference between being told an action is incorrect and an insult. There is a personality structure that is associated with not understanding the difference.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Hey y'all, haven't posted here in years but just stumbled through the forums this morning (updated privacy policy brought me here) and seeing this puts a big old nostalgic smile on my face.

Nice to see the regulars still hashing it out with newcomers who might be a bit too idealistic about their unconventional paths and pontificate how everyone else is wrong. Talk about an open forum, no wonder Caesar crushed the Senate (there's a little fascist humor for you, never mind what was rendered unto dear Caesar a few years later...) Now that I'm a bit more seasoned in the professional world I figure I might as well chime in my 2 cents, worthless as they may seem...

Enemywithin, you seem like a straight-shooter. The type of guy who isn't afraid to stand up in the middle of a college lecture (at Cornell! Nice job!) and stand tall against the incipient shills aimed to poison the minds of our dear future generations. You know that those simmering in the swamp are brewing a concoction of lies and liberal agendas designed to propagate the status quo: keep the proletariat immersed in banal distractions while while the few elite snicker back with their cigars and pizza parties and secretly fund Elon Musk's brain-to-AI immortality project so that they may one day live amongst our hard drives in perpetuity. And so to fight against such tyranny, you have adopted a no-nonsense persona that cuts through the BS (and the fat, and the blue hair) and gets to the goddamn point, right? I guess I should practice what I preach and so...

The bottom line is, no matter how appealing the shining gem at the end of the quest is, no matter how shiny it may actually BE (and trust me, it's not that shiny...well, sometimes it is, if you look at it in the right light...) the path is a terrible, rocky, Indiana Jones deathtrap kind of path...and that is a good thing! You want to avoid the shiny ivory path that some for-profit institutions offer, if only because the path that seems so, so much easier is the one that has the real snakes and whips along the way. Never mind the exorbitant fee at the start (and toll gates...oh those toll gates...), you are setting yourself up for a ride that leads to no gem...just an endless chasm where you will fall screaming and writhing in eternal torment...or at least debt.

Too much hyperbole? Well, let me restate in plainer language. I know and have worked with a number of talented, intelligent, and passionate individuals who have gone through pay-as-you-play route in psychology. While this model was originally designed to mimic medical school, it fails primarily because most psychologists do not earn what physicians earn once they land their first job. Physicians themselves sometimes struggle with it, but to be someone who is $200,000 in debt and their first job pays $45,000 (maybe benefits? who knows) is just a daunting outlook. My colleagues, mind you, are neuropsychologists and in a big city the top ones can earn 300-500k a year. My peers will probably be okay one day but right now they are struggling. Their families are struggling, their kids are struggling, etc. etc. They aren't indigent and they won't be on the streets, but it is a hard path. Hard, but doable, right?

So what's the problem? All of these folks went to top-tier PsyD programs in my city and were accepted to one of the two top postdoctoral programs in neuropsychology. So I consider them head and shoulders (and knees and toes) at or above 90% of the folks who graduate with doctoral degrees in psychology. This is a select few. The chosen, perhaps, or at least chosen by the arbitrary flick of some eye-glazed faculty flipping through internship applications (don't look at me now). As for those who attend the bottom-rung programs (and let me call them bottom-rung, Enemy, because we should be friends and I don't want to BS you like some college professor), they simply don't get to do much with their degrees. In other words, debt + limited job prospects = bad situation.

Yes there are exceptions, yes we all know that one cousin of that guy at Brown (which is no Cornell mind you) who got their unaccredited PhD at the Mesa Southwestern University or whatever and now is making half a million a year doing guest lectures about the power of "HEALL" (Healthy Eating And Lizards...Lizards!). Maybe you are one of them, Enemy. If so I would happily buy a ticket to your upcoming seminars if you happen to pass through my neck of the woods (PM me dates when they happen). But really, this isn't the path you want to go on. Take it from a guy who is the product of Republican AND Democrat parents. I'm unbiased and really just am going on practical and common sense here. Fair and balanced, wouldn't you say?

Or go do what you want. This is a free country after all. 'Murica!

Hey Neuro! The of internal honesty with which you speak is refreshing, my friend. Yeah...the Cornell degree... it was so long ago that I feel it will soon drop off the resume. But, as applies to ‘The Ivory Club’, once whomever I am applying with (reviewing application materials) learns that I had served 8yrs active duty and 3 tours... the process is pretty well done. Society has changed to the point where time served is no longer commendable.

Anyway, yeah, for the PsyD or PhD clinical I’ll attend an APA program. I’ll just have the forensic doctorate, as well. I start dissertation later this year, so I m figure I might as well finish it. There are no forensic, general, I/O, neuro, social or any of the other thousand programs that are accredited by the APA, except for clinical, counseling and school counseling programs.

My GPA (almost 10yrs worth of FT graduate study), details of my resume/CV and GRE scores are more than enough to get me into just about anywhere I want to go. However the law enforcement and military experience is a often a big turn-off to program administrators, had big problems at ASU, as well, because I did not ‘get in line’ with the rest of the Sheeple. Yeah, and the first few times you stand up and question a motive as to why the professor (of 30+ years) wants to change your opinion regarding clinical application of theory, you feel the wind blowing against you. You feel others questioning you as if to say, ‘why aren’t you playing the game like the rest of us??’. Well, ‘going along’ with a generally accepted opinion with its glaring pitfalls does not solve a problem. When professors consistently use the word ‘progressive’ when referring to policy - and I’m not talking about car insurance here - I pick up on the subliminal junk the others completely miss. As scholar-practitioners we are committed to solving problems, clinically as well as systemic issues. But some systemic issues are so engrained that the imbalances, no matter the efforts taken to solve the issue, will always be there... racism, media and education dominated by liberalism (although I can see an argument where liberalism works better to educate than conservatism-and that is from my experience as a secondary educator, all has to do with the concept of Least Restrictive Environment).

Anyway, yes, the student loan debt is huge but it will be paid off quick as I have 2 full federal pensions (DoD and VA; was hit in-country on 3rd tour) and will peruse employment with significant compensation. So I’m not worried about cost. I’m worried about ‘what it does’. I realize that the PhD Forensic Psych won’t do a lot in the end but i certainly learned a lot and it’s a resume builder nonetheless. Well, gotta get back to my prospectus, man, have a good one!

 

[WisNeuro]

My GPA (almost 10yrs worth of FT graduate study), details of my resume/CV and GRE scores are more than enough to get me into just about anywhere I want to go. However the law enforcement and military experience is a often a big turn-off to program administrators, had big problems at ASU, as well, because I did not ‘get in line’ with the rest of the Sheeple.

The reality in admission committees, by and large, is the exact opposite of this. I have only seen this raise an applicant profile rather then drop it. At least at the grad school/intern/postdoc level for clinical/counseling psych.

 

[futureapppsy2]

The reality in admission committees, by and large, is the exact opposite of this. I have only seen this raise an applicant profile rather then drop it. At least at the grad school/intern/postdoc level for clinical/counseling psych.

Ditto. When evaluating applicants for grad school (albeit masters-level), military service was seen as a strong positive. I honestly think your history of attending a questionable institution for grad school may be hurting you here. How's your CV in terms of research products and clinical experience? If you had two masters degrees and an experimental (non-licensable) psych PhD and still no publications, I might seriously question your research ability as an application reviewer.

 

[boomshakalaka]

Hey Neuro! The of internal honesty with which you speak is refreshing, my friend. Yeah...the Cornell degree... it was so long ago that I feel it will soon drop off the resume. But, as applies to ‘The Ivory Club’, once whomever I am applying with (reviewing application materials) learns that I had served 8yrs active duty and 3 tours... the process is pretty well done. Society has changed to the point where time served is no longer commendable...

Andy Bernard, is that you?