PhD/PsyD Seeking advice: how to stand out in competitive programs

[Meregold]

I'm putting this in a separate thread outside of "what are my chances" because I'm more seeking specific advice for both myself, and for students who graduated from state schools and feel at a disadvantage applying to traditionally big-name universities. My research interests very broadly are PTSD/ depression as a result of trauma and dissemination of EBT. My primary interests, though, are programs in which I can directly study EBT with war-affected populations (refugees), and I would also love a program that would allow me to do this with children. Career-wise I would love to work at a non-profit doing mental health research with war-affected populations or implementing EBT in low and middle-income countries, but I would also be happy at a University. But, I am not interested in a Global Mental Health degree as I believe it is important to be able to practice therapy before you study/ train others.


GRE
V: 167 (98%)
Q: 155 (59%)
W: 5.0 (93%)

B.A. Psychology (minors in Arabic and International Studies):
GPA: 3.74 (Psych GPA: 3.93)
Pursuing Arabic major currently.

Pubs and Presentations: Chapter publication and Honors Thesis as well as a poster presentation. After graduating am now interning at a non-profit conducting therapy effectiveness research.


Unfortunately, (and I assume because prestigious programs have more funding for it??) the only PhD clinical psych programs that have this primary, international interest as a focus are pretty competitive and traditionally ~elite~ schools. TC Columbia, U Wash, Harvard*, Fordham, UCSB, and U Conn are the only programs I could find that have a professor with a strong refugee focus. Perhaps I have missed some, but I've scoured a lot of schools, and looked for co-authors on their refugee-focused papers and the only ones I could find are adjunct; graduate students of theirs; professors at European universities; Psychiatric/ MSW/ Global Mental Health departments; or researchers at places like WHO or the UNHCR.

I'm applying to about 20 programs, many of which are not as big-name, and have a much broader focus on violence against women/ child abuse, so I haven't put all my eggs in one, ivy covered basket. While I would be happy at those programs, I am rather desperate to find a program that would let me work with war-affected groups. So I've not so much fallen into the trap of wanting to be at a big name school for the sake of it, but more it happened that for whatever reason, my primary passion seems to only exist at more competitive schools.

My concern is that I attended a large state University deep in the Southeast. While my letters are I think great, and I accomplished a lot during my time in undergrad, I did not have the networking opportunities that people who went to more expensive Northeastern/ West coast institutions may have had. Other than sending introductory emails, there is almost no chance any of my POIs will have heard of me. Additionally, I also know my quantitative score is low (I was initially advised by mentors that is my scores were over 50% I shouldn't worry about retesting because most schools don't care, but now it seems that other posters here disagree). My pros are because I am technically unaffiliated/ graduated, the research data I collect at my internship now will basically be able to be claimed by whatever professor/ program I end up at which would potentially be awesome (while I have received guidance from a letter-writer to ensure the study design is good and useful, they indicated that they have no desire or need to have their name on the final product and that I should give whatever results I get straight over to whomever my mentor is). I am hoping that, and the decision to live in the mid-east for a year for the purpose of getting direct experience with my preferred population, will set me apart, as will being proficient in a second language. But also I will be competing against masters students with more research experience, and students that are actually bilingual which could make those advantages null and void.

SO all of that is to say, is there anything else I (and others like me) can do to stand out and make myself more competitive? Any advice you have going into potential interviews? And, I suppose also what are my chances of ending up at any of these fantastic programs? Much of the advice I have found on forums so far has been immensely discouraging, with many people saying if you have not been introduced to your POI or had the opportunity to network with them yet, you don't stand a chance at competitive programs. Is that the takeaway I and others that worked hard at large and respected, but not necessarily elite or famous, universities should have?

Thanks for taking the time to read all of this, and any future responses! And I apologize that brevity is not in my skill set!



*The Harvard Clin Psych program actually does not have faculty with a refugee focus, but their Psychiatry program does incredible work with refugees. I have corresponded with my POI asking if I could potentially use his work with refugee populations, and he kindly indicated were I admitted I would be encouraged to pursue that as a personal research interest, so I am counting it as one of my top choices.

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[Meteora]

I can only give a little input, but I'll say that applying to 20 schools seems like a lot. One of the main guidelines I followed when I applied and something that I've seen in almost all successful applicants, is that they were all a really good fit for the labs they applied for. You should only apply to labs in which your interests and experiences would be a strong fit for. Even if your interests are a bit more broad, I would encourage you to narrow them a bit or at least really tailor your applications to the individual labs you apply to.

>Is that the takeaway I and others that worked hard at large and respected, but not necessarily elite or famous, universities should have?

No, not necessarily. Networking is important and it can help, but it is certainly not necessary. Getting an interview is more about the PI saying, "this is someone who may be a good fit for my lab and I want to meet them."

 

[Meregold]

Thanks for the feedback! I wasn't thrilled to apply to so many places, but this is my second application cycle and I have no intention to go through a third. I just don't have the money to keep doing it. My first cycle two years ago I applied to seven programs. I have read the research of every professor I applied to work with, and if they weren't in my "first tier" of research match (EBT for war-affected/ displaced populations), they fit a "second tier" (treatment of survivors of violence and trauma, specifically gender-based violence or child abuse). I would have loved to keep it more narrow, but as all the "top interest" programs are so gosh darn selective, I didn't feel safe not expanding it. But I made sure every person I applied to fit one of those 2-3 research interests, that I read at leas some of their publications, went through their websites for any information about projects they were working on, etc. to be sure I wouldn't be wasting either of our time were I to join their lab.

As for whether my experiences are a good fit, that's of course much harder to say. I spent two and a half years in undergrad as an research assistant, wrote an honors thesis, have spent these past few months conducting independent research on my internship, and was a victim advocate for rape survivors at a crisis hotline (though I know undergraduate clinical experience usually doesn't help your competitiveness much). But up until this internship I hadn't had a chance to work directly with trauma-exposed groups or children (though I'm trying to get in a lab that works with youth in the Spring). My thesis did include a trauma checklist, but the sample population was college students generally. So I'm crossing my fingers that that's enough!

 

[EmotRegulation]

Experiences don't have to be a direct fit, as long as you can tie your interests and your experiences together. Sometimes a "I've done X, and that made me curious about Y, and I read Z's research on Y, and now I want to study Y from Q angle" is enough. That is, you want to sound informed and thoughtful, and you can do that without having actively done research in your chosen area. We (faculty) know that people don't always have the ability to study exactly what they are interested in, that's OK.

My suggestion would be to focus on trauma and violence against women/children as you have said, and see if anyone else is studying immigrants, refugees, etc. "Anyone else" might be someone from a different department (social work? Sociology?) who you could maybe collaborate with/have on your committee. You are interested in a niche area, and being smart about this means being broad and working toward your eventual goal, even if your potential mentor doesn't do EXACTLY the thing you are interested in. You should also look at people studying integrated behavioral health care with minority populations, because it may be in this context that you will encounter immigrants/refugees (e.g., Ana Bridges at Arkansas).

Please don't discount quality programs at non-elite schools. You can get great training at some of these programs too.

 

[Affectual]

I can't speak to their research opps but I believe the University of Vermont has some solid clinical training opportunities with refugees. I'll also echo what EmotRegulation said in regards to not having to have a "perfect" match. While it's obviously ideal, especially with the population you're interested in, you can certainly get great training outside of a non-"elite" program. Good luck!!!

 

[Justanothergrad]

Please don't discount quality programs at non-elite schools. You can get great training at some of these programs too.

All good advice up there but this is super important. Graduate and UG training reputations are not the same for school's , and neither are levels of training that result.

 

[Meregold]

@EmotRegulation That's SUCH great advice! Thanks so much. I will do my best to incorporate all of that.

And I really want to reemphasize that I am not applying to expensive schools for the sake thereof. It's honestly just that the only programs I could initially find that worked with refugee populations also had low acceptance rates. I'm applying to a lot of great state schools that aren't as ~~fancy sounding~~ that do awesome research on things like violence against women and child abuse and I would count myself lucky to be admitted there. I would just prefer a program where I know I have the opportunity to work with that population and get multicultural/ community setting research exposure, and am trying to do what I can to best position myself as a competitive applicant in those programs.

But I do also appreciate all the advice for how I can get those experiences in programs that aren't an exact perfect fit! It's fantastic advice and it means so much that you're all taking the time to provide that guidance. I am taking serious notes.

U Vermont was actually in my top 3 for like a year! But the professor that heads their refugee research is unfortunately not taking students this year.

 

[foreverbull]

So many folks in here ignore Counseling Psychology programs, and I don't understand why (misinformation, lack of knowledge about the field)? ESPECIALLY when you have a cultural focus, which is more geared toward the foundation of Counseling Psychology (multiculturalism/diversity and advocacy).

My alma mater in the midwest has a faculty member who works directly with Somali refugees and has done a lot of qualitative and quantitative research with refugees. A good friend of mine chose my alma mater because of the refugee focus and interest in research regarding assessing trauma in culturally-sensitive ways (refugees tend to under-report trauma after coming to the U.S. and when assessed later, scores are very high, so it looks like their trauma increased over time, when it may actually relate to language barriers/cultural issues rather than any true increase). A lot of the decent-sized cities in the midwest have large refugee populations (i.e Chicago, Kansas City, etc.), so do some more looking. I'd apply to Counseling Psychology programs that seem like a good fit as well as select Clinical programs. You might drop some Clinical schools that seem like a long shot and replace them with some Counseling programs. All APA-accredited, of course.

 

[Meregold]

@foreverbull Thanks for your feedback! While I am applying to one Counseling program, I was advised that clinical programs had a greater focus on psychopathology training (PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, Conduct Behavior Disorder) whereas Counseling programs mainly focused on training students to treat adjustment issues in terms of work issues, marriage problems, and less emphasis on psychopathology. I thought in terms of careers, especially places like hospitals or nonprofits that supervise and train laypersons in EBT, I might have more options with a clinical degree.

But perhaps that advice wasn't correct. Do you feel, coming from a counseling program that I was misinformed?

 

[foreverbull]

Yes I do. Whoever advised you was operating under old stereotypes. Both degrees can lead to careers in hospitals or nonprofits...they are equivalent. Under state licensing laws, there is no difference between clinical and counseling; you are simply a licensed psychologist. As far as training goes, there are very minor differences between programs, and the bigger determinant of your career is where you do your practica and internship training, which is something you choose/interview for. It's not so much the type of program, but individual programs have more variation within than between, I'd say. The clinical program at my school focused more on health psychology and not so much psychopathology, so as you can see, the variation is great within clinical psychology as well.

The notion that counseling psychology focuses on "minor" concerns like adjustment, career, family therapy, etc. is very outdated and simply untrue these days. I don't know when that was actually the case, but certainly not during my training in the past 10 years. It seems like people are still spreading that old stereotype around, which is unfortunate because the degrees are very similar and equivalent in the eyes of employers and the state licensing boards.

 

[WisNeuro]

The notion that counseling psychology focuses on "minor" concerns like adjustment, career, family therapy, etc. is very outdated and simply untrue these days. I don't know when that was actually the case (, but certainly not during my training in the past 10 years. It seems like people are still spreading that old stereotype around, which is unfortunate because the degrees are very similar and equivalent.

Depends on the program, really. In my graduate school, there was a counseling program aside our clinical program. The curriculum and available prac placements were geared towards counseling centers and the like. They really didn't do anything at the local hospitals or VA. In a later affiliation on postdoc, the counseling program there was much more like a clinical program in scope. It doesn't apply across the board, but there are still situations in which the old stereotype is not exactly wrong.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Depends on the program, really. In my graduate school, there was a counseling program aside our clinical program. The curriculum and available prac placements were geared towards counseling centers and the like. They really didn't do anything at the local hospitals or VA. In a later affiliation on postdoc, the counseling program there was much more like a clinical program in scope. It doesn't apply across the board, but there are still situations in which the old stereotype is not exactly wrong.

I don't disagree with this. There are some programs which are more of the stereotype than others, but I think its safe to say that the large majority of counseling programs (and thus, counseling program graduates) are not like that. This making counseling psychology worth consideration either way. Part of the problem here probably stems from the need for another counseling psychology evaluation of what our role in the field/profession is- 1972 (if I remember my years correctly) is a long time ago.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't disagree with this. There are some programs which are more of the stereotype than others, but I think its safe to say that the large majority of counseling programs (and thus, counseling program graduates) are not like that. This making counseling psychology worth consideration either way. Part of the problem here probably stems from the need for another counseling psychology evaluation of what our role in the field/profession is- 1972 (if I remember my years correctly) is a long time ago.

Oh, it should definitely be considered. But, just like any program, clinical or counseling, find out where students are doing practica and matching for internship. That will tell you quite a bit about the training you should expect and the career trajectory from said program.

 

[foreverbull]

Oh, it should definitely be considered. But, just like any program, clinical or counseling, find out where students are doing practica and matching for internship. That will tell you quite a bit about the training you should expect and the career trajectory from said program.

I think earlier you highlighted some of the variation within counseling programs. In my counseling program, we overlapped with clinical students at practica sites (VA, hospital, community centers, and counseling centers, to a lesser extent), so the differences weren't that large practica-wise. The biggest difference was that clinical folks were encouraged to stay at a site for multiple years (they stayed at the VA for 2-3 years), while we were told to switch every year to get broader experiences. I think there's a lot of room for within-program variation in terms of focus/specialty in both clinical and counseling programs.

I agree with the above; practica experiences will be a huge determinant of career path.

 

[Meregold]

Wow that is so interesting! And also super odd that there seems to be two artificially distinct fields that are actually more alike than different. Do you think one day there will just cease to be an distinction, or will they both be redefined to separate them? Why do so many schools have both clinical and counseling programs if there's not much of an objective difference? (Of course you don't have to answer, I'm just super curious about this).

I am so glad to have that all explained. I'll definitely broaden my search some and see if I find any good fits where I hadn't before. Thanks, all!

 

[MCParent]

I agree to look at the programs and professors carefully for counseling psych. My students work in VA/hospital/behavioral med settings. At the same time, there are programs where the counseling psych students are almost entirely doing rotations at the student counseling center/career center and nowhere else.

 

[foreverbull]

Wow that is so interesting! And also super odd that there seems to be two artificially distinct fields that are actually more alike than different. Do you think one day there will just cease to be an distinction, or will they both be redefined to separate them? Why do so many schools have both clinical and counseling programs if there's not much of an objective difference? (Of course you don't have to answer, I'm just super curious about this).

I am so glad to have that all explained. I'll definitely broaden my search some and see if I find any good fits where I hadn't before. Thanks, all!

I think initially, the foundations were different. As I said, counseling came out of a multicultural practice/advocacy philosophy (and career specialty, which is becoming obselete with career centers in colleges these days), while clinical tended to come from more of an abnormal psychology perspective. I think we're getting close to the point where there isn't much of a distinction in practice (unless you look at specific programs), but usually counseling programs are housed in Schools of Education vs. Psychology departments, for whatever reason. Not always the case, but it's different funding sources if it is the case.
Some professors might be partial to their type of program and highlight the differences in foundations, etc. In our counseling program, our professors were staunch supporters of Division 17 of APA (Society for Counseling Psychology) and took pride in their multicultural training infused throughout our program, as well as the additional diversity course (I think APA is changing this so that clinical programs will be required to take it as well). But ultimately, both provide solid foundations for working with mental illness, especially with well-rounded practicum experiences and a push for cultural competence on all sides. I think that the differences are becoming less and less over time, although there are staunch supporters of either.