"Sell out" MDs

[dd128]

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Lol, guys it's not selling out if you do anything but trudge in and out of your clinic everyday. I know we all wanted to work in underserved primary care when going into med school, but it just doesn't work out that way. Granted I'm not the biggest fan of the "expert" physician witnesses and these would be the closest things to a sell out I would consider, but even they are needed. Believe it or not, there are a descent number of bad, malpracticing physicians out there who do need to be testified against in trial.

Is investing wisely with the money you make in the stock market selling out? How about buying some fast food chains? Investing in hospitals? A great many physicians do things outside of their practice and I don't think Dr. Oz or any one else are anything but smart for taking their "product" and making money out of it.

 

[leeyuhang]

Clinical trial consulting

why?

 

[ppfizenm]

Lol, guys it's not selling out if you do anything but trudge in and out of your clinic everyday. I know we all wanted to work in underserved primary care when going into med school, but it just doesn't work out that way. Granted I'm not the biggest fan of the "expert" physician witnesses and these would be the closest things to a sell out I would consider, but even they are needed. Believe it or not, there are a descent number of bad, malpracticing physicians out there who do need to be testified against in trial.

Is investing wisely with the money you make in the stock market selling out? How about buying some fast food chains? Investing in hospitals? A great many physicians do things outside of their practice and I don't think Dr. Oz or any one else are anything but smart for taking their "product" and making money out of it.

we did?

 

[dd128]

we did?

It's sarcasm, pointed at the fact that a large quantity of applicants report this desire. Of course common sense would normally dictate that not 100% of applicants say this.

 

[CodeBlu]

There are no sellout MDs. They paid their way through med school with loans and/or their own money. They don't owe anyone anything and can use their degrees however they see fit. If in the US the government funded med school then we could make the argument that they were selling out by not practicing. But seeing as each individual pays their own way through, they can do whatever they want with the degree including going on TV, working in malpractice and doing consulting.

😕

who do you think pays for residency?

Also, med school tuitions generally don't fully cover the total cost of educating a medical student.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9075424/

These. Nail it on the head.

 

[Veritas86]

Yeah, yeah. It's not "selling out," per se, but the fact that docs like Oz pimp reiki, TCM, homeopathic junk, and voodoo cures for the common cold to me is essentially giving the finger to everything med school taught you about treating patients.

 

[theseeker4]

Yeah, yeah. It's not "selling out," per se, but the fact that docs like Oz pimp reiki, TCM, homeopathic junk, and voodoo cures for the common cold to me is essentially giving the finger to everything med school taught you about treating patients.

These make him either a complete quack if he actually believes these things, or a fraud lying to bilk people out of money if he doesn't. "Sell out" maybe not, but he is certainly not a shining example of a physician or someone to hold in high regard.

 

[ppfizenm]

These make him either a complete quack if he actually believes these things, or a fraud lying to bilk people out of money if he doesn't. "Sell out" maybe not, but he is certainly not a shining example of a physician or someone to hold in high regard.

We will offer him the choice of idiot or sell-out

 

[Stumpyman]

We will offer him the choice of idiot or sell-out

Since he went to Harvard, idiot is ruled out, and therefore, he's a sell-out.


😀

 

[alerk323]

😕






These. Nail it on the head.

Logic: The government covers part of the cost for healthcare therefore docs owe it to society to use their degree in certain, morally appropriate, ways, otherwise they are sell outs.

The government covers part of the cost of certain scholarships/financial aid offered to college students. Those college graduates owe it to society to use their degree in certain, morally appropriate, ways, otherwise they are sell outs.

true?

edit: quote thing got messed up, was quoting statements made about how medical school/residency is partially paid for by gov

 

[ppfizenm]

Since he went to Harvard, idiot is ruled out, and therefore, he's a sell-out.


😀

I am sure no idiots ever went to Harvard.

 

[Tin Man]

Would you rather someone less qualified deny their claims? Or does the very thought of denying claims just break your whittle heart?

I am never impressed by sarcastic remarks made by people with House as their avatar picture. It's just too telling.

 

[Stumpyman]

I am sure no idiots ever went to Harvard.

I see your point, but going to Harvard basically means no one can say the person is a complete, mindless idiot.


*Cough* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush *Cough*

 

[ppfizenm]

Logic: The government covers part of the cost for healthcare therefore docs owe it to society to use their degree in certain, morally appropriate, ways, otherwise they are sell outs.

The government covers part of the cost of certain scholarships/financial aid offered to college students. Those college graduates owe it to society to use their degree in certain, morally appropriate, ways, otherwise they are sell outs.

true?

edit: quote thing got messed up, was quoting statements made about how medical school/residency is partially paid for by gov

Not morally appropriate ways. For example, Michael Crichton created Jurassic Park. There is nothing inherently moral about this. Using your diploma in an immoral way is a different matter though. Of course morality is defined differently by different people so belaboring the subject is useless.

 

[ppfizenm]

I see your point, but going to Harvard basically means no one can say the person is a complete, mindless idiot.


*Cough* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush *Cough*

Nice edit, it was completely invisible before.

 

[Stumpyman]

Nice edit, it was completely invisible before.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I made it visible on purpose 😎

 

[alerk323]

Not morally appropriate ways. For example, Michael Crichton created Jurassic Park. There is nothing inherently moral about this. Using your diploma in an immoral way is a different matter though. Of course morality is defined differently by different people so belaboring the subject is useless.

Yea that makes sense. My point is that if you use the standard of "the government helped pay for this so you are obligated to use it in a certain way", than plenty of other people should fall under that standard. Generally, however, they don't. You wouldn't condemn an author struggling to write a purely for-profit fiction novel who got her degree based, in part, on government issued financial aid. There's a higher and often inappropriate standard applied to doctors.

 

[ppfizenm]

Yea that makes sense. My point is that if you use the standard of "the government helped pay for this so you are obligated to use it in a certain way", than plenty of other people should fall under that standard. Generally, however, they don't. You wouldn't condemn an author struggling to write a purely for-profit fiction novel who got her degree based, in part, on government issued financial aid. There's a higher and often inappropriate standard applied to doctors.

His, and the degree doesn't really come with government aid. You can get an MD and never complete a residency but still be a doctor, just not a practicing one. I get your point though

 

[Veritas86]

These make him either a complete quack if he actually believes these things, or a fraud lying to bilk people out of money if he doesn't. "Sell out" maybe not, but he is certainly not a shining example of a physician or someone to hold in high regard.

For real. As a pharm tech, I got to see two PharmDs have it out about homeopathic crap.

Not gonna lie, I nerded out a little bit.

 

[todds]

A sell out MD is anyone doc who puts profit > people. I understand making a income, but there are some who blatantly misdiagnose, mistreat, put someone through an unnecessary procedure with risk of complication to make more profit for themselves.

And they're a lot of them. I've seen them at University centers, Community hospitals, private practice whatever. And then you'll see the opposite independent of their setting of practice.

 

[kami333]

These make him either a complete quack if he actually believes these things, or a fraud lying to bilk people out of money if he doesn't. "Sell out" maybe not, but he is certainly not a shining example of a physician or someone to hold in high regard.

Dr. Oz invited energy healer Julie Motz to be a member of his team. During surgery, Julie sat at the foot of the operating table and ran energy through the patient’s feet.

http://www.dreamtimewellness.com/ReikiAndSurgury.pdf

This was from before he had a TV show so I don't see how he could have profited.

 

[tonyyounmd]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned plastic surgeons! What do you think about us, in general? Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings!😉

 

[Bacchus]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned plastic surgeons! What do you think about us, in general? Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings!😉

You have to make a living, too. You're improving self-confidence with self-augmentation.

 

[Perimeter]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned plastic surgeons! What do you think about us, in general? Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings!😉

Us? You deserve to be addressed?

 

[Veritas86]

http://www.dreamtimewellness.com/ReikiAndSurgury.pdf

This was from before he had a TV show so I don't see how he could have profited.

Pre TV he still profited by taking advantage of people who believed in it.

 

[Veritas86]

I am sure no idiots ever went to Harvard.

Also. Well played. Idiots about everywhere.

 

[QuizzicalApe]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned plastic surgeons! What do you think about us, in general? Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings!😉

There's a lot of objectively good stuff a plastic surgeon can do for a community, reconstructive AND cosmetic.

Some folks seem to just resign themselves to careers focusing on solving the invisible problems of neurotics, which is unfortunate. It may pay well, but it is unfortunate.

 

[Veritas86]

Agree with the above. Plastics is indispensable in reconstruction. Cosmetics...I can see it being a bit of blessing as well, honestly. There are worse specialties. Like physiatry 😛

Side note. I'm kidding.

 

[link2swim06]

Katie Rodan and Kathy Fields.....the two docs who become millionaires many times over selling benzoyl peroxide (aka proactiv) which doesnt do crap for most people's acne (compared to the benzoyl peroxide you can buy at the store for $4).

 

[impervious0ne]

Oz definitely! Gupta, not sure; since he does more journalism rather then promoting crappy products and healing practices.

FYI, although Gupta is not a "sellout" by any means, he tends to stray away from the objectivity and is often criticized for his inability to discern bias from his reports.


I implore everyone to not be like Dr. Andrew Wakefield and prioritize money over safety and health of your community. His report on the link between autism and vaccines undermined the genuine work of people here in CDC and now started this war on vaccine that are supported by people like Jenny McCarthy.

LINK on YOUTUBE (Fair Use Disclaimer: Non-commercial/education purpose)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oEtF8FdqpA

By the way, I am all for constructive debates, but not vaccinating your loved ones against Influenza, Polio, and Pox is a poor decision.

I believe that MD's cannot be considered a sellout until they prioritize money over patients. Can you look for a position in a private practice that pays well? Sure, as long as it doesn't negatively affect your patients.

 

[IMSingular]

Yeah, yeah. It's not "selling out," per se, but the fact that docs like Oz pimp reiki, TCM, homeopathic junk, and voodoo cures for the common cold to me is essentially giving the finger to everything med school taught you about treating patients.

I am not a proponent of homeopathy, god and religion. Homeopathy is probably least harmful of among them. Homeopathy, similar to god and religion, may have a placebo effect of calming the patients just because they believe in it. People who believe in god and religion have no business in criticizing homeopathy. People may be wasting their money on homeopathy, but that applies equally to people's endevour towards god and religion.

"So, if you are sick, I would advise that you go to the witch doctor because he is the man in tribe who knows the most about disease; on the other hand, his knowledge is not science"-- Richard P Feynman, The Feynman Lectures on Physics.

 

[SpecterGT260]

There are no sellout MDs. They paid their way through med school with loans and/or their own money. They don't owe anyone anything and can use their degrees however they see fit. If in the US the government funded med school then we could make the argument that they were selling out by not practicing. But seeing as each individual pays their own way through, they can do whatever they want with the degree including going on TV, working in malpractice and doing consulting.

U should maybe review the meaning of sellout...

 

[Bacchus]

Katie Rodan and Kathy Fields.....the two docs who become millionaires many times over selling benzoyl peroxide (aka proactiv) which doesnt do crap for most people's acne (compared to the benzoyl peroxide you can buy at the store for $4).

I bought into the phenomenon. It worked for me, haha.

 

[MT Headed]

WIKI: "Selling out" is the compromising of integrity, morality, or principles in exchange for money or "success" (however defined).

I wonder if Mark Weinberger ( http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/01/missing-doctor-201101 ) qualifies.

He opened a private nose clinic, gave people unnecessary & deprecated surgeries for $$$, and missed throat cancers & other stuff that any MD should have caught.

 

[Veritas86]

I am not a proponent of homeopathy, god and religion. Homeopathy is probably least harmful of among them. Homeopathy, similar to god and religion, may have a placebo effect of calming the patients just because they believe in it. People who believe in god and religion have no business in criticizing homeopathy. People may be wasting their money on homeopathy, but that applies equally to people's endevour towards god and religion.

It's the misconstrued ideas of the perceived nature of God and religion that makes the people who believe dangerous.

Same token, pt X has been taking homepathic remedy Y for disease Z without seeing a physician.

Turns out to be not only severe bit fatal. Thus, homeopathy CAN be harmful. As can religion and the belief in a god. But its the individual that makes it harmful, not the "drug" itself.

 

[SpecterGT260]

It's the misconstrued ideas of the perceived nature of God and religion that makes the people who believe dangerous.

Same token, pt X has been taking homepathic remedy Y for disease Z without seeing a physician.

Turns out to be not only severe bit fatal. Thus, homeopathy CAN be harmful. As can religion and the belief in a god. But its the individual that makes it harmful, not the "drug" itself.

Well said

 

[ppfizenm]

It's the misconstrued ideas of the perceived nature of God and religion that makes the people who believe dangerous.

Same token, pt X has been taking homepathic remedy Y for disease Z without seeing a physician.

Turns out to be not only severe bit fatal. Thus, homeopathy CAN be harmful. As can religion and the belief in a god. But its the individual that makes it harmful, not the "drug" itself.

There's a good south park episode about this where kyle gets sick and the adults try to cure him with homeopathic medicine. They end up taking him to the homeopathic doctor who tells the adults to take him to a real doctor.

sounds so funny written out like this. especially if you didn't see it.

 

[theseeker4]

I am not a proponent of homeopathy, god and religion. Homeopathy is probably least harmful of among them. Homeopathy, similar to god and religion, may have a placebo effect of calming the patients just because they believe in it. People who believe in god and religion have no business in criticizing homeopathy. People may be wasting their money on homeopathy, but that applies equally to people's endevour towards god and religion.

Big difference between thinking there may be something to homeopathy even if we don't understand it, and actively encouraging patients to spend their money on it (whether because the patient brought it up or the doctor.) Similarly, there is a big difference between having a private belief in god/religion, and actively telling your patients to go to church and tithe and pray in order to get well. Equating a private belief in religion that is kept out of your practice with promoting homeopathy in your practice is absurd.

 

[sirenomelia]

I'm not sure how it works once in court itself. But my dad has said that for the cases that usually come across his desk he says exactly that, but obviously with way more specifics. In fact, he's only been in court maybe 3 or 4 times. Very few cases go to court. so no, this is not how it works at all and is another good example of how most people just kinda brush it off as immoral while no knowing very little about the actual process. I expect that if the expert says that the doctor is innocent, he wouldn't call on him in court. Than again, there are two sides and both usually utilize experts, at least for research and I know at least of a couple times when he has been called in as a witness to defend the doctor.

Many state medical boards already have neutral panels setup to initially filter meritless claims and the ones that get through that the lawyers pursue often involve career asshat physician witnesses that these lawyers regularly work in cahoots with who make a living overscrutinizing and exagerating plaintiff claims and case details that well exceed the reasonable level of detail and information available to the doctor at the time of the event. Most of us have been recruited to "supplement" our income offering such "services" to regional legal firms; most of us have the dignity, character and sense of professionalism to decline regular involvement in such activity unless we're defending a doctor or the case or practioner in question resulted in a significant breech of standard of care plain to the naked eye.

 

[kami333]

There's a good south park episode about this where kyle gets sick and the adults try to cure him with homeopathic medicine. They end up taking him to the homeopathic doctor who tells the adults to take him to a real doctor.

sounds so funny written out like this. especially if you didn't see it.

It was more naturopath (and some reiki/faith healing thrown in at the end) than homeopathic since the "cures" they used weren't diluted down a bajillion times.

 

[danderson]

So I guess my question is, what is he talking about? What other careers require an MD and would categorize as "selling out"? Aside of academic medicine and practicing, what other careers would benefit from an MD at all?

The rogue doctors running the "pill mills" in Florida, making tons of money and ruining countless people's lives! You know, the ones where you can walk in and then walk out with 240 oxycontins. I win!

 

[alerk323]

Many state medical boards already have neutral panels setup to initially filter meritless claims and the ones that get through that the lawyers pursue often involve career asshat physician witnesses that these lawyers regularly work in cahoots with who make a living overscrutinizing and exagerating plaintiff claims and case details that well exceed the reasonable level of detail and information available to the doctor at the time of the event. Most of us have been recruited to "supplement" our income offering such "services" to regional legal firms; most of us have the dignity, character and sense of professionalism to decline regular involvement in such activity unless we're defending a doctor or the case or practioner in question resulted in a significant breech of standard of care plain to the naked eye.

It sounds like you have a good amount of exposure to this world, but I can only speak from what I've heard from my father, who says that contrary to your experience, he regularly reviews cases where his "expert opinion" is that the doctor in question was not negligent. If anything, he has a bias for the doctor and I think the few times he has been in court it has been in defense of the doctor. Perhaps they ask many doctors to review cases and only pick those that review favorably for the plaintiff to testify in court? I'm not sure.

My point is just that condemning an entire category of doctors because of the immoral activity of a few is not a very informed view. There's potential for abuse, as well as excellence, at all levels of care.

 

[scarshapedstar]

Health insurance claims adjuster - the original Death Panel.

Basically you set up a robosigner with Your Name, MD and the insurance company puts whatever they want under it, e.g. "In my highly educated medical opinion the removal of this brain tumor would be an experimental and elective procedure" and they pay you $400,000 a year for your 'service'.

 

[iqe2010]

Health insurance claims adjuster - the original Death Panel.

Basically you set up a robosigner with Your Name, MD and the insurance company puts whatever they want under it, e.g. "In my highly educated medical opinion the removal of this brain tumor would be an experimental and elective procedure" and they pay you $400,000 a year for your 'service'.

Sounds like my kind of job. 😀

But in all seriousness, I don't like the word 'sellout.' People want lots of money, its human nature. And they're going to do whatever they have to do in order to get as much as they can. Here at sdn people like to act like a physician is the most noble profession for whatever reason. Every profession has bad people. It's just the way life is.

 

[sirenomelia]

Health insurance claims adjuster - the original Death Panel.

Basically you set up a robosigner with Your Name, MD and the insurance company puts whatever they want under it, e.g. "In my highly educated medical opinion the removal of this brain tumor would be an experimental and elective procedure" and they pay you $400,000 a year for your 'service'.

I dont know anyone who does this. Do you have any sources for what the qualifications and compensation for this sort of position are? I assumed it had to be non-physicians and even if they were I would be surprised if they were paid anything close to practicing MD's.

 

[scarshapedstar]

I dont know anyone who does this. Do you have any sources for what the qualifications and compensation for this sort of position are? I assumed it had to be non-physicians and even if they were I would be surprised if they were paid anything close to practicing MD's.

Claims adjuster was the wrong job title. A medical reviewer needs an MD.

[YOUTUBE]DoqpPwvUoP0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

Who here is hatin' on the Gupta?

Handsome, neurosurgeon, etc. I smell some jealousy.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Who sold out...

 

[chemhead123]

It sounds like OP is talking about punk rock from the late 80s... sell out? Come on... its your life you get to do with it what you want. What makes your "cousin" the authority of what is and is not a valid way to use one's MD?

 

[MT Headed]

Health insurance claims adjuster - the original Death Panel.

Basically you set up a robosigner with Your Name, MD and the insurance company puts whatever they want under it, e.g. "In my highly educated medical opinion the removal of this brain tumor would be an experimental and elective procedure" and they pay you $400,000 a year for your 'service'.

Sounds analogous to the out-of-state video consult doctors who wrote tens of thousands of medical marijuana scripts when we legalized marijuana in Montana.