SGU or DO

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BCLumas said:
Why not? It opens more doors for you when it comes time to match.

/confused
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He means after the match. It will probably help to take USMLE Step I in addition to COMLEX Level 1 and perhaps even Step II, but there isn't going to be any benefit from taking USMLE Step III for ordinary match purposes, due to when it is taken. Most folks will probably just do USMLE Step I in addition to COMLEX. This appears to be sufficient.
 
I may be wrong, but from all the faculty I talked to, the information I read, and the 3rd and 4th years, the consensus is that taking the USMLE step I as a DO student is completely unnecessary these days. The faculty member I talked to was the first osteopathic resident in the Harvard IM program.
 
Yea.. Step III would be pretty useless ^.^ good catch!
 
Kuba said:
I may be wrong, but from all the faculty I talked to, the information I read, and the 3rd and 4th years, the consensus is that taking the USMLE step I as a DO student is completely unnecessary these days. The faculty member I talked to was the first osteopathic resident in the Harvard IM program.
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I've heard mixed reviews from a variety of sources. It's probably not that necessary if you:

1) Rotated at the site before and you are well liked at the site.
2) They have DO residents there and you are not going to be the first DO in the program.

However, I'd still probably recommend taking USMLE Step I when applying to ACGME programs that don't know you and have never, or seldomly, accepted DO's. If you decide to apply to some of these programs, it seems like a good idea to take the USMLE. You want to give PD's something they are familiar with.
 
Just go to SJU.

If you really have to ask something like this on an open forum, you are very likely not DO material. I am just being honest here.

Unless you really want to choose DO and know enough about it, you might come to regret it when people do not know about the profession and have to constantly telling people your training background.

I am always impressed by generations of DOs in a family. There was an article that alluded to this in a recent DO magazine. Its great too see that. Its cool that in some families, cousins, uncles, sisters, mothers, etc. are all DOs or training to become one. They probably throw reunion OMM parties.
 
Porco Rosso said:
Just go to SJU.

If you really have to ask something like this on an open forum, you are very likely not DO material. I am just being honest here.

Unless you really want to choose DO and know enough about it, you might come to regret it when people do not know about the profession and have to constantly telling people your training background.

I am always impressed by generations of DOs in a family. There was an article that alluded to this in a recent DO magazine. Its great too see that. Its cool that in some families, cousins, uncles, sisters, mothers, etc. are all DOs or training to become one. They probably throw reunion OMM parties.
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I now have something to look forward to.. having kids that will eventually be DOs and practice OMM on me ^.^
 
tkim said:
Here's my take. I'm in residency now and I work with grads from other DO schools, US and FMG MD grads - FMG and IMG alike. Many fine, smart people, and we have no problem working with each other.

Here's the issue: as an FMG/IMG you'll need ECFMG certification for the match. If you fail the USMLE CS during the match and don't retake and pass it in time, you are automatically withdrawn from the match. Meaning that whatever time and money you've spent on interviews and travel just evaporated for no good reason and you sit out and entire year. It happens. That sucks, but more importantly this is not the case with DO's.

The second thing - moonlighting. As an FMG/IMG you cannot moonlight as early as US MD and DO grads in most states. You may not think this is important, but come year 2 or 3 of residency when you feel the pinch of loan repayment or just need more money, you'll see the difference then.

Those are really the only concrete differences that I see.

I had a family and could not bear to leave them or take them with me to a Carib island. Therefore the choice was easy for me. However, had I no family, the Carib would easily be a great choice as well.
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very good post...
My question now is... is it true that a US medical graduates (DO and MD) have a better opportunity to land the higher up residencies than FMGs do ?
 
I've heard similar things from current faculty/physicians about whether or not to take USMLE Step 1 in addition to COMLEX..... It is getting better and more and more allo programs are accepting COMLEX and able to use those scores to help rank you, but there are still some programs that really want to see USMLE.

One resident and residency director that was talking to us raised a good point in that if you're looking at a program that doesn't take the COMLEX and really wants to see the USMLE then maybe you might want to think twice about it if right off the bat there's a hint of not wanting to change and accept "our" boards.
 
nlax30 said:
I've heard similar things from current faculty/physicians about whether or not to take USMLE Step 1 in addition to COMLEX..... It is getting better and more and more allo programs are accepting COMLEX and able to use those scores to help rank you, but there are still some programs that really want to see USMLE.

One resident and residency director that was talking to us raised a good point in that if you're looking at a program that doesn't take the COMLEX and really wants to see the USMLE then maybe you might want to think twice about it if right off the bat there's a hint of not wanting to change and accept "our" boards.
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Look they're letting "us" into their residencies... we dont' let them into ours. WE create the distinction... not them. If we let MDs into our residencies, then I would fully understand expecting them to accept the COMLEX. But because our profession makes the argument that we are inherently different, how can we expect them to accept our licensing boards as completely equivalent to theirs. It's not lesser, it's just different. The USMLE doens't include OMM for starters...

So if I want to enter their system and choose not to do an AOA residency, I expect to have to prove that I'm on the same playign field as MD grads...
 
However, there are still some MD residency programs that accept the COMLEX as well as the USMLE for an entrance exam. I am sure non-specialized residency programs are that way: peds, family care, ob/gyn, etc...
 
BCLumas said:
However, there are still some MD residency programs that accept the COMLEX as well as the USMLE for an entrance exam. I am sure non-specialized residency programs are that way: peds, family care, ob/gyn, etc...
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Right and those are the programs that either realize or dont care that the walls between the professions are superficial...
 
Nasem said:
very good post...
My question now is... is it true that a US medical graduates (DO and MD) have a better opportunity to land the higher up residencies than FMGs do ?
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Without a doubt.
 
nlax30 said:
One resident and residency director that was talking to us raised a good point in that if you're looking at a program that doesn't take the COMLEX and really wants to see the USMLE then maybe you might want to think twice about it if right off the bat there's a hint of not wanting to change and accept "our" boards.
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This is DOGMA. Don't believe it. You are being fed PROPAGANDA. Do the research and find out for yourself.
 
I think it makes perfect sense for ACGME to want DOs to take the USMLE. MDs arent allowed to enter the AOA match at all, the least we can do is meet them a quarter way and take the USMLE.
 
Not to start a war on the subject, but what is the main differences between the COMPLEX and USMLE? Would you not study the exact same material for both tests? (Besides OMM techniques)
 
apparently comlex is more clinically based (whatever that means)
 
I too am thinking over the same question (SGU vs DO).

I got accepted to both. Which one do i take?

To be honest, u cant go wrong w/ either one. And the fact that you post this on a Pre-Osteopathic forum, you are going to get biased answers. Post this same question on VALUEMD and you will get biased answers in the other direction.

Do your research. Think about what you want/need.

But i have to say a few things:

1) SGU tends to have the negative stigma because it is in the caribbean. Its true, some schools in the caribbean are NOT ACCREDITED and as a result, you wont be able to practice in the US. However, this does not apply to SGU. In fact, SGU stands out from the other caribbean schools and you can make a case about how it is unfair to compare SGU w/ other caribbean schools. if you look at the statistics
http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/som/student-statistics-MedicalSciences.html
you will see that getting accepted to SGU may even be harder than osteopathic schools.

2) As for it being harder to gain residencies.
http://www.sgu.edu/ERD/ResidPost.nsf/bypgy?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1
seems like those students did just fine. But yes, it may be harder to gain the more competitive residencies (then again, even for DOs it will be harder to get the more compeitive residencies).

from my post, it may seem like that PRO-SGU and a DO hater... but im not. Im just playing DEVIL's advocate here. I would probably do the same thing at VALUEMD if i saw many PRO-SGU and "DO is a fake doctor" post.


3) as for SGU being a 3rd world country. i think its blown way out of proportion.

---------------------------------------------------

after all is said and done, you will be fine either way. however from a MONEY perspective, SGU is expensive. stafford loans are friendly to US schools. dont take my word on it, but i think stafford loans let you borrow 40-50k for US medical schools and only 17-18k for SGU on an annual basis.

that being said, there are other alternatives and other loans you can rely on to fund your education.

just ask yourself, how important the 2 letters are (DO vs MD).

i also suggest that you ask:

a SGU graduate and a DO graduate for a more trustworthy/useful opinion. that is what im doing.

I know DOs who regret not going to SGU. I know SGU graduates who regret not going DO. ok, i lied. i only know 1 DO and 1 SGU graduate. and they are "ONLINE" friends. lol. so take that for what its worth.
 
who said SGU grads are fake doctors? I hope and think the answer is no one.

I do disagree with #3, only because I have a few friends that have graduated and are there now. For instance, my buddy buys his cereal in bulk (enough for 3 months) because if he doesnt there is no more cereal left to buy on the island. Also, he said it is about 4 times more expensive per box or something ridiculous like that.
 
hey if your a Vick fan come to VCOM with me!
 
I know MDs who regret not getting finance jobs on wall street.

The bottom line is that if you take care of business, you'll get what you want. Not everybody has what it takes to get a derm or neurosurgery residency, and here's a shocking revelation: if someone didn't match what they wanted as a DO, chances are they wouldn't have matched it if they had gone to SGU, or if they had gone to Harvard.

People can make all the excuses they want, but it comes down to each individual's own performance, and nothing else. There are no handouts. You get what you earn.
 
True for the most part...but Connections + Harvard will get you pretty damn far even with sub par performance.
 
Okay but if someone went to Harvard, chances are that they were pretty brilliant and hard-working to begin with, and have probably done plenty to earn the benefit of the doubt. The average Harvard med student was probably not trying to decide between SGU, DO, and Harvard. The average SGU student would probably not be in the same league as the average Harvard student. There are exceptions, and these are the people who match the tough residencies.
 
HristosKaran said:
Not to start a war on the subject, but what is the main differences between the COMPLEX and USMLE? Would you not study the exact same material for both tests? (Besides OMM techniques)
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What the hell is up with everyone calling it the COMPLEX? Is it really that complex (yes, I went there) of a concept to understand that it is called the COMLEX? I really really do not understand...
 
Arch Guillotti said:
This is DOGMA. Don't believe it. You are being fed PROPAGANDA. Do the research and find out for yourself.
Click to expand...

How so? In reference to the idea of more allo programs accepting COMLEX or the suggestion that you may not want to attend a program that doesn't?

Just curious. I realize the source of whatever info I'm given, and will take it for what it's worth until I have a chance to look further into it, just haven't had the time to sit and make the calls and really get into it. So for right now it's all just based on what I've heard from faculty/admin, other residents, residency directors, and friends further along than me.

I understand hearing something from one person or one director is not going to be gospel across the board. Gosh, I've heard COMPLETELY different opinions from current residents/physicians and I can only assume that 1) either no one knows what they are talking about, or 2) that each person is just giving their opinion/advice based on their experience and knowledge and that it may be different the someone who went elsewhere or practiced in a different "environment", so I kinda have to go with #2.

It is somewhat frustrating that there are these "divisions" present and when the time comes I just have to look at the residencies I would like to go to and decide what's based for me, which may or may not be the best choice for someone else.
 
The allopathic programs may be taking COMLEX more regularly, but it still doesn't give you something tangible to compare yourself to MD students with. Also, you never know how each individual reading your application will interpret your COMLEX score, or how familiar that person is with COMLEX.

I don't know this for a fact, but it seems like you would be putting yourself at a disadvantage, of varying degrees, depending on where you're applying, if you want to match a competitive allopathic residency, but you don't take the allopathic boards.
 
sexyman said:
True for the most part...but Connections + Harvard will get you pretty damn far even with sub par performance.
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You are 100% right that the name will get you in the door but once past that, you are on your own. In a previous job I worked with engineers from many schools including MIT. The best engineer I worked with went to Bridgeport University which is a small no name school but the guy liked his job and did it well. The moral of a story is that once you get in, you are judged by your performance. Medicine is no different.

Attending Dr's have told me that they will only refer to you if you are a good doctor. Being a good doctor requires the self discipline to keep up on the latest literature. One attending recommended an hour of reading a day. Initials come second
 
I agree with most of what you guys are saying and I definitely do not believe an anecdote is a strong point in an argument, but let me just restate that one of the faculty members here recently graduated from a DO school, did NOT take the USMLE, and was the first-ever DO taken into Harvard's IM program(which I'd imagine is pretty competitive since it will give you teh big advantage of landing things like Harvard cardiology or nephrology fellowships.


p.s. she paved the way and now theres several DO residents in the program.
 
nlax30 said:
How so? In reference to the idea of more allo programs accepting COMLEX or the suggestion that you may not want to attend a program that doesn't?

Just curious. I realize the source of whatever info I'm given, and will take it for what it's worth until I have a chance to look further into it, just haven't had the time to sit and make the calls and really get into it. So for right now it's all just based on what I've heard from faculty/admin, other residents, residency directors, and friends further along than me.

I understand hearing something from one person or one director is not going to be gospel across the board. Gosh, I've heard COMPLETELY different opinions from current residents/physicians and I can only assume that 1) either no one knows what they are talking about, or 2) that each person is just giving their opinion/advice based on their experience and knowledge and that it may be different the someone who went elsewhere or practiced in a different "environment", so I kinda have to go with #2.

It is somewhat frustrating that there are these "divisions" present and when the time comes I just have to look at the residencies I would like to go to and decide what's based for me, which may or may not be the best choice for someone else.
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This discussion has been held many times on SDN through the years. You are completely right, take everything you hear with a grain of salt. i can tell you that when I was on the interview trail for anesthesia, more than one PD commented on the fact that they were glad I had taken the USMLE and it was the best thing I could have done for my application.

What I am saying is DOGMA is the same old tired party line about allopathic residencies and the COMLEX. That is, if they don't solely accept the COMLEX and that they want us to take the USMLE then they view us as somehow inferior and that we won't be welcome there and that we will be treated somewhat differently. In my experience, this is crap. They want to compare apples to apples. My residency program wants to see USMLE scores from everyone that applies. We have a few DO's that have come through here over the years and we are all treated the same.
 
sexyman said:
hey if your a Vick fan come to VCOM with me!
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well, i made this screenname a while back (before Vick's troubles). i kinda regret using this name now. lol. but then again, im too lazy to sign up for a new account and dont really see the point of signing up again just to switch screennames.
 
^ ha I figured (since you joined in 05), I was just messing around.
 
My take: If you want to do an MD residency, it would be almost silly NOT to take USMLE. Yes, many MD residencies accept COMLEX these days but they do NOT know how to compare them. When MD Internal Medicine residencies are requiring a 600 COMLEX for an interview... it tells me that they are woefully misbegotten.

I've talked to quite a few guys who say they would not have even gotten an interview if they hadn't taken the USMLE. Yes, this is from places that claim to accept COMLEX. However, I know of some places where it doesn't make a difference. You have to know your residency WELL before you decide to rank it.
 
scpod said:
My take: If you want to do an MD residency, it would be almost silly NOT to take USMLE. Yes, many MD residencies accept COMLEX these days but they do NOT know how to compare them. When MD Internal Medicine residencies are requiring a 600 COMLEX for an interview... it tells me that they are woefully misbegotten.

I've talked to quite a few guys who say they would not have even gotten an interview if they hadn't taken the USMLE. Yes, this is from places that claim to accept COMLEX. However, I know of some places where it doesn't make a difference. You have to know your residency WELL before you decide to rank it.
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Do you think MD residencies in states with DO schools, such as Michigan, are more receptive to the COMLEX than states w/o?

My intuition says yes but I am not sure.
 
Not taking the USMLE for any competitive residency, regardless of state, is a mistake.
 
Take the USMLE.

If you want to match into one of their programs, take their boards.

Simple as that.

Do not do so for any reason is ridiculous.
 
Dr JPH said:
Take the USMLE.

If you want to match into one of their programs, take their boards.

Simple as that.

Do not do so for any reason is ridiculous.
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there was a time in SDN history when I would see a JPH post every hour of the day (often times educating the pre-meds in the pre-do board)....man how things have changed....😉
 
Pansit said:
there was a time in SDN history when I would see a JPH post every hour of the day (often times educating the pre-meds in the pre-do board)....man how things have changed....😉
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Surgical residency does that to a person. 🙂
 
I'm not a stalker or anything but hes doing a PCOM General Surgery Residency- osteopathic obviously.
 
sexyman said:
Caribbean vs. USA

It is that simple. Always always always choose the US medical school whether it be any allopathic or osteopathic school before you decide to go abroad. SGU is still a caribbean school no matter how you want to slice it.
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i have no idea why ppl put a stigma on carribean schools...my bros friend went to stanfords GI specialty after going to the carribean. you just gotta do your best and things will work out.
 
Osteo

I didnt look at DO school as a "means to an end"

I look at it as an endeavor.
 
ah JPH, if only everyone in the DO world that i know of is/was as honorable as you..its so sad to hear this and even repeat it, but i know so many DO students that just used the osteopathic route simply because they didnt get accepted to USMD..

anyways I think this thread is quite pointless...everybody has different circumstances in life and they must do what they have to do attain their goals...this thread doesnt take into consideration what field of medicine you want to practice, if you want to practice abroad, what geographic location you want to end up in, whether you have a spouse/family, etc etc...

I do believe the original poster of this thread has good intentions, however i dont think the Pre-allo/osteo thread is a place to ask this. You should ask this to
1)residents-SGU,OSTEO or AMG residents that know more about this
2)students in clinical phase of education at both SGU and Osteo schools
3)Practicing physicians who attended DO school and those that went to SGU
and MOST IMPORTANTLY ..............
4) YOURSELF- what do you want?..what's YOUR best option..asking this question in the pre-med forum may be nothing more than asking " what would you do?" rather than " why did you DO it?" (no pun intended)
 
Dr JPH said:
Osteo

I didnt look at DO school as a "means to an end"

I look at it as an endeavor.
Click to expand...

No, I was just wondering if your GS surgery residency wanted USMLE or not. Obviously, it didn't matter to them if its an osteo residency 🙂.
 
I didnt look at DO school as a "means to an end"

I look at it as an endeavor.
Click to expand...

I can definitely relate to this. I am more excited to go to medical school right now then I am to eventually practice medicine. Most people think I am crazy, but I am excited to experience class/rotations and eventually residency. I suppose thats why the "amount of time" it takes doesnt scare me. I think I will enjoy it for the most part.
 
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