Shadowing or Scribing?

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InspiroDoctoro

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I plan on taking the MCAT late January-early February. I am currently a Scribe, and I find myself completely overwhelmed from work by the time I come home, even though I am a part-time Scribe that's getting paid $7.25. The other days I'm not working, I would think about and dread my future shifts. Even though I currently work in a clinic, it gets really busy to the point that I don't have time to eat or drink anything.

Should I continue to work as a Scribe or should I just allocate my time to studying and shadowing?

Does scribing give me a +1 during applications and interviews?

I'm only missing clinical experience/shadowing.

I have:
-3.6 GPA
-No MCAT
-No shadowing
-Volunteered and paid work as a tutor at a non profit company and at my UG (TA)
-Was a translator and receptionist at a hospital (also charted rounds) ~400 hours
-other volunteer work

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Quit scribing and do clinical volunteering instead!

Here's a bit of my recent post that you may find helpful: Planes2Doc's Ultimate Guide to Final Fantasy 7, Medical School Purgatory, & Typical Pre-Med Missteps

Over the past few weeks, I have noticed non-stop threads regarding entry-level clinical jobs. You see a lot of the typical stuff. You see people comparing EMT versus CNA, EMT versus scribing, an entry-level clinical job versus non-clinical job, and entry-level clinical job versus volunteering. Clinical jobs are something that end up absolutely killing pre-meds. Not only do they destroy their chances of matriculating to medical school, but also ends up destroying their chances for a decent career in the future since they often wreak havoc on their GPA. Both Nina and Matt thought their jobs would give them a massive leg up in the admissions process by making them look better. But instead, these shifts cut right into their much-needed study time for classes and the MCAT. Despite having this "medical experience," it will not make an otherwise poor application with bad grades or MCAT look better.

What do ADCOMs want? They want you to have CLINICAL EXPERIENCE. What exactly is clinical experience? It is having seen the clinical environment, so you know what you are getting yourself into. The purpose is NOT to learn any specific clinical skills. Can you repeat this with me? The purpose is not to learn any specific clinical skills. Now repeat it as many times as you need to in order to get this into your head. Medical school starts you at STEP ZERO. You will learn the most basic of skills required for becoming a doctor and will not feel left behind. There were a few former CNAs and scribes in my class, and they may have had one class worth (and that's being generous of course) of an advantage over the rest of us (since they knew how to check vitals and simple stuff like that). But otherwise, never did I feel left behind or lacking of any skills. Never did I say to myself, "I wish I was a:thumbdown: [INSERT ENTRY-LEVEL CLINICAL JOB] before medical school!" This is not like PA school, that acts as a fast-track curriculum and therefore requires hundreds of paid clinical experience hours. Even so, my friend that is a PA said the following: "Honestly I don't see why it makes a difference!! I did enjoy my paid clinical work before PA school but it's stupid that it's required. Those jobs are so low paying. It's like PA school expects you to work as an MA or CNA for $15/hour for 2 years just to get into PA school."

How do I view entry-level clinical jobs? Let's put it into a different perspective. Let's pretend your dream is to become an airline pilot. You can go ahead and become a flight attendant if you'd like. You'll see the airport, you'll the airplane, you'll interact with the pilots, and you may even find yourself in the cockpit on some occasions. But at the end of the day, despite seeing both the airport and airplane, you are not a pilot. You are not doing anything that has anything remotely to do with piloting a plane. This will not make you a better pilot in any way.

The same can be said of entry-level clinical jobs. Sure, you'll see the clinical environment. You'll interact with patients, and other members of the healthcare team. But you will NOT be performing tasks that doctors are expected to do. So far, throughout clinical rotations in medical school and now working as a resident, there are many things I have never done, have never been expected to do, and will likely never do. I haven't fed a patient, I haven't wiped a patient's butt, I haven't emptied a patient's bed pan, I haven't bathed a patient, I haven't tried to figure out a nursing home or rehab facility placement for the patient, and the list goes on. I'm not saying this to be a jerk or to be all high and mighty. But these are not tasks that a doctor does. These are not tasks that the doctor will be expected to do. There are positions in the hospital that take care of these things, and are paid to do so. A doctor is not a magical Swiss Army Knife that has to do every little thing from diagnosing and formulating a treatment plan, to wiping the patient's butt, all the way to figuring out placement after discharge. There are people there for that. They are paid to do this. Never be afraid to ask people to do THEIR job. I'm not saying what they do is unimportant or is below me. All I'm saying is that there are different duties delegated to different members of the healthcare team, and it is that way for a reason. Everyone has their place and their own things to do.

Also, while you get paid, it is pocket change compared to future earnings as a doctor as well as potential losses by either doing an expensive SMP or getting crappier jobs as a result of dropping the pre-med track.
giant-swiss-army-knife-3079.jpg

The doctor is not supposed to be like this Swiss Army Knife

For some reason, people seem to take most offense when I write about entry-level clinical jobs. People tell me that I'm flat out wrong. Look, I'm not saying your experiences are worthless. That's not what I'm trying to get at. All I'm saying is that you will have the rest of your life as a physician to have these experiences. You will laugh. You will cry. You will cure. You will code. You will see patients die from right in front of you. I promise you, you'll have the ability to experience all of these things. I know I have during both medical school and now as a resident. But there is no need to start trying to become a Chief Medical Scribe when your goal is to become a physician. These jobs do not set you apart since so many people are already doing them, and can negatively impact your grades and MCAT, ultimately destroying your chances of getting into medical school. Often times, people remain underemployed and stay in these entry-level clinical jobs. I have compared these to having your Bar Mitzvah in Judaism, so check it out if you'd like: Clinical Jobs, Bar Mitzvahs, and Why You Shouldn't Do It

Also, another important thing I'd like to note is quitting entry-level clinical jobs you already have. Some people find that they are conflicting with school, and choose to drop them. First of all, I'd like to say that no one in your life will be loyal to you except your family and your dog. Employers do not care about you, and will fire you if you aren't performing well, or just for any other reason. If you feel that your grades are being impacted, quit! The best way to do it is a two week notice, so you can hopefully quit without burning bridges. If this isn't possible, then quit immediately. Just because they are short-staffed is NOT YOUR PROBLEM, IT IS THEIR PROBLEM. All jobs have turnover rates, and managers are supposed to deal with it. It's just a part of being in the business. My cousin is a general manager and part owner at a high volume car dealership. He says the biggest joke in the business is a two-week notice. People just walk out (usually with profanities), and that's how it goes. He deals with it. It's a part of being a general manager of a car dealership. It is not worth sacrificing the rest of your life (by getting bad grades or an MCAT) just so this company that doesn't give two $h1ts about you can find a replacement. If things went bad and bridges were burned, the solution is simple. Leave it OFF your resume and AMCAS application. Unless your name was on a website or you had this listed on Facebook or Linkedin as your employment, there will be no way to look up your previous employment history. You do not need to disclose every little thing, and especially things that will make you look bad! Just take the hit from the wasted hours (at least you got paid), and move on.
 
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^wow....

shadow during the school year, scribe if you take a year off. case closed

i worked as a scribe for a year after i graduated, sometimes 12 hour shifts and it is extremely taxing. i would not do it while in school to be honest, it would have been too much for me. scribing looks good but gpa and mcat matter much more
 
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^wow....

shadow during the school year, scribe if you take a year off. case closed

i worked as a scribe for a year after i graduated, sometimes 12 hour shifts and it is extremely taxing. i would not do it while in school to be honest, it would have been too much for me. scribing looks good but gpa and mcat matter much more

I already graduated, but I am studying for the MCAT right now.

May I ask how long did it take you to get better at your HPIs? My provider is always amending my HPIs, and she would make remarks and have a set tone for me when I'm not doing a good job, even though I'm a new scribe. I've requested to be transferred, but since it's a small Scribe company, it won't be for a while. After three days of training, I am on my own starting tomorrow.
 
I already graduated, but I am studying for the MCAT right now.

May I ask how long did it take you to get better at your HPIs? My provider is always amending my HPIs, and she would make remarks and have a set tone for me when I'm not doing a good job, even though I'm a new scribe. I've requested to be transferred, but since it's a small Scribe company, it won't be for a while. After three days of training, I am on my own starting tomorrow.

Residents co-sign their H&Ps to attending physicians, and more often than not, changes are made. You're not even in medical school, so this isn't something you should be worrying about.
 
Residents co-sign their H&Ps to attending physicians, and more often than not, changes are made. You're not even in medical school, so this isn't something you should be worrying about.

This is what I was telling my physician and trainer! I am new to Scribe and even medical terminology (I did not take Medical Terminology or A&P), but I find that she does not care or understand for me in that sense. The company I currently work for is small and so, sadly, they are only giving me three training shifts (which I go solo tomorrow). I notified the higher ups that I am not ready, but all they suggest is practice and picking up another shift (under a different physician).

Is it just me or is the job itself stressful? My first two days, I came home, not wanting to do anything and even crying because I felt mentally fatigue. Meanwhile, on my off days, I think about quitting and finding alternatives.

I know you suggested to just quit and do clinical volunteering. In this case, what jobs/volunteer work would you recommend? I've been "close to patients to the point of smelling them" because I've had the chance to translate for multiple patients and even assisted ER docs and radiologists. I was thinking about shadowing+volunteering+MCAT if I was to quit scribing.

Also, thank you for your response!
 
This is what I was telling my physician and trainer! I am new to Scribe and even medical terminology (I did not take Medical Terminology or A&P), but I find that she does not care or understand for me in that sense. The company I currently work for is small and so, sadly, they are only giving me three training shifts (which I go solo tomorrow). I notified the higher ups that I am not ready, but all they suggest is practice and picking up another shift (under a different physician).

Is it just me or is the job itself stressful? My first two days, I came home, not wanting to do anything and even crying because I felt mentally fatigue. Meanwhile, on my off days, I think about quitting and finding alternatives.

I know you suggested to just quit and do clinical volunteering. In this case, what jobs/volunteer work would you recommend? I've been "close to patients to the point of smelling them" because I've had the chance to translate for multiple patients and even assisted ER docs and radiologists. I was thinking about shadowing+volunteering+MCAT if I was to quit scribing.

Also, thank you for your response!

Yeah you bet! It sounds like you are having a tough time with this. It isn't until MS-3 or even MS-4 that medical students become proficient in doing H&Ps. So it's utterly ridiculous that they have these expectations for you.

As for volunteering, I would do a weekly clinical gig. What you do makes no difference. It should hopefully be something that works well with your schedule and allows significant downtime to study. At the end of the day, ADCOMs can only verify the hours you worked, but not your actual performance during that time. Also, if you have anything you genuinely enjoy, I would try doing non-clinical volunteering in that area.
 
Yeah you bet! It sounds like you are having a tough time with this. It isn't until MS-3 or even MS-4 that medical students become proficient in doing H&Ps. So it's utterly ridiculous that they have these expectations for you.

As for volunteering, I would do a weekly clinical gig. What you do makes no difference. It should hopefully be something that works well with your schedule and allows significant downtime to study. At the end of the day, ADCOMs can only verify the hours you worked, but not your actual performance during that time. Also, if you have anything you genuinely enjoy, I would try doing non-clinical volunteering in that area.

Thank you for your feedback! I've decided that if I'm not doing so well tomorrow, I will send in my 2 week notice because I have been feeling overwhelmed. The higher ups called me two days ago and told me that I will have a trainer tomorrow, but my trainer isn't coming because she has to wrap things up (she's quitting, too).

Since I've only been working approximately 60 hours, should I put it in my application? I've read multiple posts saying that if I do, it'll show I was not committed to the job and is highly advised against. I am fine without putting it on there because I plan on gaining shadowing hours to put on there instead.
 
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Thank you for your feedback! I've decided that if I'm not doing so well tomorrow, I will send in my 2 week notice because I have been feeling overwhelmed. The higher ups called me two days ago and told me that I will have a trainer tomorrow, but my trainer isn't coming because she has to wrap things up (she's quitting, too).

Things that make you go hmm...

Since I've only been working approximately 60 hours, should I put it in my application? I've read multiple posts saying that if I do, it'll show I was not committed to the job and is highly advised against. I am fine without putting it on there because I plan on gaining shadowing hours to put on there instead.

Here's my rule of thumb: If you feel the need to ask in a forum, it means that the little voice in your head is telling you not to do it. So it's probably a bad idea, and I wouldn't do it. 60 hours will not really help your application, and I think it might show a lack of commitment, not being able to handle the clinical environment, not able to balance schoolwork with scribing, and so on. It seems that it would hurt more than help you. Leave it off your application. This job has never existed. Done.
 
I already graduated, but I am studying for the MCAT right now.

May I ask how long did it take you to get better at your HPIs? My provider is always amending my HPIs, and she would make remarks and have a set tone for me when I'm not doing a good job, even though I'm a new scribe. I've requested to be transferred, but since it's a small Scribe company, it won't be for a while. After three days of training, I am on my own starting tomorrow.

yeah, as planes2doc said, when residents were there working with the doctor i scribed for, their hpi's were scrutinized. it took me a good several months before i was writing hpi's that didn't need to be edited, and even then, for time's sake i would use bullet points (i scribed for a chief in internal medicine so there were a ton of hpi's going on at once during each visit) and bullet points are easier. these are not the kind of hpi's you will write as a resident. paragraph stories, what they want you to be able to do, are even more difficult and some doctors i worked for when i wasnt scribing for the chief wanted me to do them that way which takes much longer.

some doctors are definitely picky about what you write and it sounds like you have a doctor like that. it takes a few months to get used to what any doctor wants though so it is normal but i wouldn't go through that kind of stress while trying to get good grades.

good luck!
 
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Things that make you go hmm...



Here's my rule of thumb: If you feel the need to ask in a forum, it means that the little voice in your head is telling you not to do it. So it's probably a bad idea, and I wouldn't do it. 60 hours will not really help your application, and I think it might show a lack of commitment, not being able to handle the clinical environment, not able to balance schoolwork with scribing, and so on. It seems that it would hurt more than help you. Leave it off your application. This job has never existed. Done.

Thank you so much! I will keep it off, and just take it as a personal experience.
 
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yeah, as planes2doc said, when residents were there working with the doctor i scribed for, their hpi's were scrutinized. it took me a good several months before i was writing hpi's that didn't need to be edited, and even then, for time's sake i would use bullet points (i scribed for a chief in internal medicine so there were a ton of hpi's going on at once during each visit) and bullet points are easier. these are not the kind of hpi's you will write as a resident. paragraph stories, what they want you to be able to do, are even more difficult and some doctors i worked for when i wasnt scribing for the chief wanted me to do them that way which takes much longer.

some doctors are definitely picky about what you write and it sounds like you have a doctor like that. it takes a few months to get used to what any doctor wants though so it is normal but i wouldn't go through that kind of stress while trying to get good grades.

good luck!

Ah, thank you!
Yes, I definitely have that type of doctor. The doctor I'm shadowing for wants her HPIs completed before we leave the room, in paragraph form, with everything separated according to main symptoms. I'm definitely having a hard time because I don't know what symptom is the caused of what yet so eh.
 
Ignore the whole scribe/volunteer thing

Don't take a job for 7.25 an hour...

That is just outright insulting

Wal-Mart pays more than that right now
11 something in my area
 
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Ignore the whole scribe/volunteer thing

Don't take a job for 7.25 an hour...

That is just outright insulting

Wal-Mart pays more than that right now
11 something in my area

Hehe, I know. That's a really terrible pay, mostly because every other scribe company is paying $8.50. You've brightened my day!
 
Here's the thing about +1 on anything, adcom member are PEOPLE. People have their preferences. The reality of it is, there really is no guarantee scribing will give you a +1 with anyone. You do you. While it is true, you do need some clinical experiences, there's no one way to go at it.

A little inspirational story for you, I got accepted into a medical internship. I realized I only applied to it because others were doing it and with encouragement from my health professions adviser, I dropped it. After that, I started doing things my way and volunteered at a more local hospital. Within a month I was shadowing physicians at that hospital. One of them in particular, I asked for a recommendation letter because we clicked well and when the doctor asked when I'm applying I said (insert my application year, which is not for a while). When they asked me why ask for some so soon, I said AAMC recommends asking one right away because doctors could forget about you because they're busy people and the doctor said they couldn't forget about me even if they died trying because I stood out from other shadowers so much so, I even got invited to a retirement party from someone who worked in that doctor's department.

Moral of the story: do what you think you should do. The world is not black & white. You'll realize this when you start your statement.
 
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The best thing about scribing is that it is not school.
Meaning, you have the opportunity to fail and have others teach you, without it being a serious detriment to you academically. Further meaning, that there is a potential for limitless growth without any terrible repercussions besides feeling tired, underpaid, and unhappy at times - this will be a recurrent factor in any lifestyle you choose until you succeed.

I began scribing 2 years ago. I cried, hated it. Swore I'd quit...
Now, I'd consider it the most influential experience in my career choices. I quit pursuing phd programs and decided to pursue medicine because I discovered that, after a few months, I loved medicine and I mean Really loved it.
2 years later, and I've seen thousands of patients and procedures. I can give differentials and interpret basic lab results.
I never regret going into work.

So OP, if you're up for the challenge, stay.
It won't be the easiest progress you've ever made, and your feelings may be hurt - but if you think you'll love medicine, one day it'll make your eyes light up to discuss patient cases with the attending, to stand over CT scans when the stroke alerts come in, to see chest tubes placed and codes being run.
 
I've done both scribing and shadowing, but had more experience scribing. I think that one of the things that makes the decision between the two difficult is just that there are so many different sites and programs within scribing that it makes it difficult to take the experience at face value. I've loved the opportunities I had as a scribe, but a lot of factors come into play. The pay where I'm at is good, and I was able to gain a leadership role and advance pretty quickly in a year because I work in a site with many specialties but few scribes. I work in an outpatient clinic and I've gotten to scribe for 9 specialties and about 18 different doctors, and through that, I was able to witness the styles/approaches of many different providers. I got to see what I want to emulate as well as what I would NEVER want to emulate in my profession. (I've got some stories that I wish I could share about a couple of doctors going postal, but I shouldn't, haha.) I even got to briefly work for providers outside of MD/DO (a few times I've scribed for nurse practitioners, DPMs, etc.) and I feel like it's worth something to know the difference between what the different providers do if you're set on being an MD or DO rather than going NP/PA/DPM. However, a lot of medical schools don't seem to recommend people outright shadowing mid-levels, at least from what I've seen. Going after that specifically seems like it would have diminishing returns.

In general, I love scribing. I know what you mean about dreading your future shifts. I've felt that way with other commitments in the past, but I seldom felt that way with scribing-- the dread is probably a huge sign that it's not the right thing for you. Especially for such little pay! As much as I love my job, it's not worth it for $7.25. Not at all. That is far below what they should be paying you. If you need the money, don't stick with that job. IMO this shouldn't be a minimum wage job, you're required to be professional, attentive, and focused when seeing patients all day. Have you considered sticking around for a little while to form relationships with the doctors and ask them about shadowing? I knew a few people who did that and were able to shadow doctors for whom they had previously scribed. Some of them might be willing.

(Sorry if this is a little long-winded, some of this advice is geared towards people looking at scribing/shadowing in general who might be looking here for answers, as well.)
 
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