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should DO and MD merge

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Amy B, Apr 9, 2004.

  1. Amy B

    Amy B I miss my son so much
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    Hi all,

    I was asked last night why DO students do not believe that the DO and the MD profession should merge. I was told...."The professions are 95% the same, so why shouldn't they be merged together."

    Since I am not a med student yet, I thought I would ask for the opinions of our great DO med students here on SDN. I know we have had posts about this topic, but I was wondering if someone asked you today what would you say to them???

    Any help would be great.

    The question is .......

    ""'Since the two professions are 95% the same, then why shouldn't we merge DOs and MDs together?"
     
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  3. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    dood... seriously... there have recently been 2 huge long threads on this very topic... just look...
     
  4. Amy B

    Amy B I miss my son so much
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    I know about the threads, BUT I am wondering what people would have said to someone that asked the question, in their words, using their experience in med school. Not just from opinions, using what has been read.
     
  5. Amy B

    Amy B I miss my son so much
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    Ok, let me ask in a different way.

    Would you use history as a reason not to merge or personal experience or both? I mean do you get enough personal experience in the differences when you are a med student?

    I started talking about the rich history behind the DO profession and was told that I was merely repeating what I had read on a web page, that I truely had no idea what I was talking about. Which, I guess is true since I am not in school yet or a DO.
     
  6. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    i personally think that history alone would not be enough, but many colleges use that very simple reasoning for many of the degrees they issue...

    A.B. not a B.A. etc....
     
  7. MacGyver

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    A DO/MD merge would mean the end of DOs as we know it. I'm in favor of it actually.

    We should have one umbrella organization that controls all medical schools in the United States.
     
  8. bustbones26

    bustbones26 Senior Member
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    In the United States DO=MD but in other countries that is not the case. Probably the only reason I can think of as to why you cant abolish the DO degree
     
  9. annushka

    annushka Senior Member
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that in the history of DO/MD merger the DO's were simply given the option of becoming MD's?

    That would involve throwing out all the years of osteopathic medicine that you studied...I think I would be for the merger if two things happen because of it:

    Osteopathy would become a legit MD specialty that one could specialize in and
    It would be a subject taught in medical schools.

    As for the title, I actually like Medical Doctor better (don't kill me anyone, please!) simply because it's more descriptive of what we will practice--medicine. Doctor of Osteopathy sounds like we do nothing but OMM, which is not true. Besides, I believe osteopathy is a part of medicine, and it shouldn't be separated from it. I mean, you don't call someone Doctor of Cardiology, do you? For the same reason, calling someone Doctor of Osteopathy is confusing and redundant.

    So as you can see, the merger would only work if BOTH sides compromise...and the one in the 60's was very one-sided from what I heard.

    Just my $0.02.
     
  10. Adapt

    Adapt 2K Member
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    Earlier I was a proponent of the two merging, but after reading about the fiasco in California and how DOs had to stuggle just to have the right to practice, I think the two should remain separate.
     
  11. MacGyver

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    That did happen before, but that was before the Dept of Education recognized ONLY the LCME as the official arbiter of which schools could grant MD degrees.

    Once the DOE switched their policy, its illegal for a DO graduate to be granted an MD without attending an MD school.

    By the same token, its illegal for an MD to obtain a DO degree unless they go to a school accredited by the AOA.

    The dept of education recognizes the LCME as the licensor of MD programs, and the AOA as the licensor of DO programs.

    Well I could see the AMA/LCME agreeing to incorporate SOME extra musculoskeletal training or OMM options into all medical schools, but when it comes to MD vs DO degrees, the DO degree would disappear and all schools would be accredited by the LCME as MD granting institutions only. The AOA would lose its power to accredit DO schools, and all DO schools would come into the fold of the LCME and become MD granting institutions.

    Grandfathering existing DOs into the MD umbrella would be a contentious issue.
     
  12. Amy B

    Amy B I miss my son so much
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    Yes, exactly. Perfect. Why would DO schools want anyone else running them and telling them what to do. Thanks for the replies. I have been asked to write a short speech about why DOs and MDs should remain separate AND have it be a reply that doesn't offend either side. Now, that is the part I can't figure out how to do. I feel as DO students, we will be given more education when we finish than the MD students. The OMM is a big part and the MD students don't do it. I feel that DOs have a rich history in looking for the best ways to make their patients well AND keep them feeling well. I am really finding it hard to put my feelings on this subject into a speech that won't upset MDs. Yikes, I am over my head.

    Any way, thanks again to all that replied. I tried to change the post thread title, but it doesn't let me. I meant to say.... How would you reply to someone that thinks MDs and DOs should merge.
     
  13. San_Juan_Sun

    San_Juan_Sun Professor of Life
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    Make sure to tell them that you got your research from an Internet message board.


    OMM is a fairly small part of being a DO. OMM does not equal Osteopathic Philosophy. You shouldn't need to infer that MDs are less educated (ps- they aren't) in order to validate osteopathy.


    I think you'd get hammered (rightfully so) if you went in and said "we will be given more education than MD students".

    Instead, discuss the unique nature of osteopathy without being condescending to MDs.
     
  14. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    The title "medical doctor" is not one that is exclusively limited to MD's. In fact, MD does not stand for medical doctor as many think. MD stands for Doctor of Medicine, and DO stands for Doctor of Osetopathic Medicine. The title "medical doctor" is appropriate and legal for both professions. In many state statutes, the title medical doctor is defined to include MD's/DO's, and sometimes even DPM's. But it is completely ethical and logical for a DO to say they are a medical doctor if one asks what kind of doctor they are. A medical doctor is simply what distinguishes a physician from a PhD, EdD, JD, ND, etc... DO's changed their degree designation about a decade ago granting the degree Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine instead of Doctor of Osteopathy, primarily to make this happen. That was when DO's were no longer referred to as osteopaths and became medical doctors in status.
     
  15. MacGyver

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    All of what you just said is irrelevant to this debate. Yes a DO can say "i'm a medical doctor" but they CANNOT write their name as John Smith, MD unless they went to an MD-granting institution.
     
  16. moo

    moo 1K Member
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    DOs aren't more educated than MDs. Try telling a Harvard MD grad that you, as a DO, are more educated than he/she is. Quite arrogant, don't you think?Yes, the core education is the same but it's very one-sided to think that just because one does OMM, one is more educated. MD schools don't typically advertise the fact that there is a lot more emphasis on research, biostatistics, and behavioral science to their applicants and why these are potential advantages to going MD over DO. Just like how a DO student can learn these things, MD students can easily pick up OMM if they wanted to (and if it were necessary, like taking the COMLEX, but no MD students take the COMLEX).
     
  17. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    Agree with above post. I understand that you are stoked about medical school and obviously being a DO is like icing on the cake for you. However you shouldn't hold onto the preemptive defensive stance that DO's are more educated. Its simply not true and it adds fuel to the fire on these boards. This viewpoint will only serve to isolate you from your MD colleagues with whom you will most likely be working with in the not too distant future.
     
  18. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    I agree with moo and ventdependent. OMM may be an additional (and valuable) tool that DOs have, but it doesn't make us better educated overall. It rubs MDs and many DOs the wrong way to take this stance.
    I'm a big OMM advocate, but I don't think that it is what will make me a good physician.
     
  19. Amy B

    Amy B I miss my son so much
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    Well, these responses show my problem clearly and what I have been up against as I try to write this stupid speech.

    Why then did you all chose DO over MD? I think it boils down to personal preference between 2 professions that almost mirror each other but ultimately acomplish the same thing.

    I think I am going to talk about the history, going to talk about how both professions are run in house and that if we merged them it would cause chaos. They both are happy as seperate entities that in the end preform the same job.... treating patients. Like an Exxon and a Texaco across the street from each other. Both sell gas, both may have certain advantages over the other, both may have pitfalls but in the end both sell gas and it is personal preference as to which one you go to.
     
  20. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    I would say that originally there was a notable difference between a DO degree and an MD degree. Osteopathic medicine was founded as an alternative to the medicine being practiced at the time, and OMM is obviously a unique feature of it. However, as time has passed, osteopathic medicine and allopathic medicine have both been moving towards each other - allopathic medicine starting to pay more attention to preventive medicine and primary care, osteopathic medicine not focusing much on OMM or any therapies different from what MD's practice.

    So essentially, I would say the two types of medicine exist as separate entities today simply due to cultural/bureaucratic inertia. Most people go DO simply because the school they wanted to attend happened to be a DO school - if we're going to be honest, other than time spent learning OMM, there is no difference. As far as patients, the average person hasn't a clue.
     
  21. moo

    moo 1K Member
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    I am an MD student that strongly considered DO. I decided not to pursue it for several reasons:

    1) Limited practice options outside of US. I'm not from this country so should I want to return to my home country, it would be difficult.

    2) After researching into OMM, I decided I didn't want to learn it. Med school is tough enough without having something added on that may actually benefit only a very small minority of my patients.

    3) Research. MD schools by far have more quality research opportunities.

    4) I strongly believe in the osteopathic philosophy, but at this point in my training (a month from finishing my second year) I feel that I have also gotten the whole "treating patients as a whole" at my school, maybe even too much. As a result, I really don't see this as a reason to go to a DO school.

    So, as you can see, some of these may not apply to you.

    Some people prefer pepsi over coke, others coke over pepsi. I prefer pepsi over coke because I find coke too sweet. Others may prefer pepsi over coke for other reasons (like their logo, their commercials, etc.) This MD/DO debate is the same thing. For me, I preferred MD over DO, for the above reasons, some of which may or may not apply to you. At this point, I don't really regret my decision.
     
  22. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    hmm... well thas nice and all... here is my rebuttal...

    1) a US-MD also has limited practice rights... yea... seems the usa is not the only country that wants to limit the influx of foriegn doctors... so if u want to go to a particular country and practice meds... best idea would be to get your med education there....

    2) wether you want to learn omm or not is really of little consequence... some may argue that either the knowledge of omm would enhance your diagnosis abilities in other fields just from having a different perspective of a problem, or that there are several DO students every year that score top scores on the usmle and comlex even after learning omm, so it must not have been that great a hamper on their learning... so id say you have a weak arguement in your #2...

    3) generally speaking i agree. however you would have to be more specific because you are not attending allopathic schools on average but rather just one school in particular and actually some osteopathic schools research is higher than some allopathic schools... so... generally i agree... but ......

    4) if you strongly believe in the DO philos... then you would have gone DO... but you didnt... additionally you DIDNT do DO, so you dont really know the difference anyways... just as so many kind and helpful ppl have pointed out to me...

    have a great day :)

    on a whole though, i conceed that that ignoring the roots of MD and DO, there is little difference in the classroom. as some teachers are saying, i see the two philosophies joining in the future.... for better or worse... dunno.....................
     
  23. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    Moo,

    Thank you for your very honest response. I am sorry you comments were belittled by Cooldreams who has no idea what he/she is saying. You are right on the money when you say that MD schools are doing a good job training students to treat the whole patient. As a DO student, I can tell you that there is no patented osteopathic philosophy being taught outside OMM. For me it was about wanting to learn the OMM, but I respect the hell out of you for not wanting to be burdened by it. For Cooldreams to say that your "argument" was weak was just typical of an insecure DO student. It is our own insecure individuals that make accepting individuals like yourself think poorly of our profession. You were right on all accounts. MD schools provide universally better research opportunities and better chances to practice abroad with the MD degree. And trust me, having been to PA school at a very well known MD school and sitting side by side with med students for classes and taking the same exact exams, I can agree that the whole person/preventive approach is one that is taught in both MD and DO schools. I had no need to go abroad, and I like research about as much as a good case of testicular torsion, and since I wanted OMM for my family practice in the future (always knew I wanted to do FP), I knew DO was for me. Moo, you are a true testament to an MD student being open minded toward the DO profession and I appreciate your comments. Cooldreams is evidently insecure and needs to force you to rethink your life course to better suit Cooldream's goals and needs!!
     
  24. moo

    moo 1K Member
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    Cooldreams, so you don't think OMM is a good enough reason not to go DO? OMM is a big part of an osteopathic education, otherwise the AOA wouldn't make it such a big deal. And it may come as a shock to you that MD students are just as committed to preventive medicine and dealing with other psychosocial factors as a DO... otherwise we wouldn't have any epidemiology or behavioral science on our licensing exams. And believe me, studying for Step I now has made me realize what a large part of the exam is behavioral science. This DO vs MD debate is really pointless. I've had DOs teach me, some good some bad, and the same can be said of MDs.

    For the others, it's good to see that you guys are not out to put MDs down. There's nothing worse than coming across someone who just spews the typical AOA rhetoric at you.
     
  25. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    really i think that omm is the biggest single difference between DOs and MDs which is why the AOA makes a big deal about it, but that does not mean that omm encompasses your entire medical education. sigh... as i have just previously stated... "
    2) wether you want to learn omm or not is really of little consequence... some may argue that either the knowledge of omm would enhance your diagnosis abilities in other fields just from having a different perspective of a problem, or that there are several DO students every year that score top scores on the usmle and comlex even after learning omm, so it must not have been that great a hamper on their learning... so id say you have a weak arguement in your #2..."

    it is not a shock that MD students are committed as well... again... like i said "on a whole though, i conceed that that ignoring the roots of MD and DO, there is little difference in the classroom. as some teachers are saying, i see the two philosophies joining in the future.... for better or worse... dunno....................."

    i dont really recall putting MDs down in this thread...... guess that is something you made up....



    heheh :thumbdown:
     
  26. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    you guys are nuts... MDs do NOT learn OMM in their typical schooling, so in the area of OMM DOs LEARN MORE!!!! believe it or not, THEY DO!!!!!!

    at the same time, MDs spend their extra time learning more about research types of things, which typically DOs do NOT, so here, MDs LEARN MORE!!! the degrees are not equal folks, in some areas MDs learn more, and some areas DOs learn more. to say that they are completely equal in every possible respect is ignorance.... or maybe just being lazy???
     
  27. EvoDevo

    EvoDevo Forging a Different Path
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    Oh just shut up..just because someone doesn't choose DO doesn't mean that they're somehow a lesser person than you.

    Nice post, moo. :thumbup:
     
  28. Seaglass

    Seaglass Quantum Member
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    Sorry, I can not just let this logical error slide:

    Just because SOME DO's score high on the USMLE does not reflect AT ALL the impact OMT training has on their overall medical knowledge (as tested on Step 1) compared to an MD student. To make this argument you have to use averages, not outliers, and then show that in two similar groups, one that was trained in OMM and one that was not, USMLE scores were different/the same in the two groups. Now, since MD students and DO students are generally not comparable (different avg. MCAT, previous education, curriculum in general) the averages of DO students vs. MD students on Step 1 in fact tell you NOTHING except how well one can expect to do, on average, as a part of either group.

    So comparing step 1 scores between DO's and MD's tells you absolutely nothing except how you might predict one member of either group doing on the test. You can't use the scores to make an argument for/against OMT.

    And you should never use outliers to test your hypothesis. Actually that was why I felt compelled to write this in the first place.

    C
     
  29. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    Relating to the above post, if the AOA replaced the COMLEX with the USMLE as their national board exam scores and pass rates and averages would jump up. People still choose the path of least resistance when given a choice. Thus folks still don't take the USMLE serious when all they have to do is pass the COMLEX to graduate. Why the hell would you take the USMLE (or try to score high on it) if you are going into FP? Absolutely no need.

    Agree that OMT definitely doesn't make one a better physician. It is a nice adjunct to have. With OMT primary care docs can add a decent amount of income by using it on their patients.
     
  30. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    wow ,... another post someone is putting words in my mouth??? i never said MDs are lesser than DOs ... wut the hell man... got a "complex" or something?? :laugh:
     
  31. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    This DO student is not on your side in this argument Cooldreams, and neither is anyone else here. You are the one who seems to have a complex when you call someone's viewpoint and personal opinion an "argument". Moo was not arguing a point, but more expressing an opinion. You are completely out of line, and I can see why someone would want to put words in your mouth.
     
  32. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    :laugh: you're funny... i seem to have made you really mad for some reason, but i just dunno why... maybe you just like being mad... more power to ya dood....
     
  33. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    1) what do student are you referring to in your vague statement?? hehe

    2) any viewpoint / opinion you express IS an arguement. .... duh....

    3) maybe completely out of line with your opinions but still no reason to slander me...

    cheers... :love:
     
  34. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    Trust me when I tell you that I am not slandering you. I am quite good at that but I am too busy doing something useful. So what you are saying is that if I say that I chose to become a Protestant because I found the Catholic rituals to be too structured, you would say that I am making an "Argument"? What Moo said was not up for debate! Moo said he chose not to go to a DO school because he did not want to waste time learning OMT. That is not an argument; it is a personal opinion for one's own situation. Unless you are in Moo's shoes you have no business judging what is right for Moo. You need to find another thread where there is actually something useful to argue.
     
  35. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    1) yes, that is your arguement, that protestants are the way for you or whatever... you are saying that catholics are too structured... some may say the opposite... who knows....

    2) that was not his arguement... his arguement was that he didnt want to go DO because it would hinder his ablilties to learn what he wants to learn, i.e. not omm. if you could conclusively show that he is right, then it would be fact, otherwise its opinion and hence, an arguement that he posted on an anonymous forum for all to see and respond to....

    you are probablly right... need to find something else to talk about, but that nice little email keeps coming up that someone has responded to me.... sigh... im such a tool of the system....
     
  36. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    My gosh Cool, reading your posts is similar to driving my motorcycle through a 100 yard stretch of knats! You know you better not slow down because that will just prolong the agony. I agree, you should take a break from this thread and focus on your debate and writing skills. Any relevant point you make is lost due to the scattered construction of your sentences.
     
  37. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    ok dood... thanks for the constructive critisism...... :rolleyes:
     
  38. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    lol.. hey guys.. keep the negative reputation coming!!! i love this... 6 negatives from this thread alone... wow.... :laugh:

    edit - 8

    keep it coming guys, i saw some dood with 2 red bars on his name...

    edit - 10

    edit - 11
     
  39. daelroy

    daelroy Senior Member
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    I don't even know you but do you know that you give people the impression that you simply like to argue for arguments sake. You seem like some 4 year old that has to get in the last word every time. Pathetic
     
  40. AlternateSome1

    AlternateSome1 Burnt Out
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    I am all for the merger. I want to be a Doctor of Osteopathy and Allopathy. I can see my name plaque now:

    Dr. AlternateSomeone, DOA


    :clap:
     
  41. Robz

    Robz La Vie Boheme
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    Could you imagine getting a doc with dead on arrivial as the intials after their name?

    no no mam....its a good thing it doesn't mean I'm the doc that killed the most last year.....
     
  42. Amy B

    Amy B I miss my son so much
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    How funny :laugh: :laugh:
     
  43. Eyecon82

    Eyecon82 Senior Member
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    Man...you just like to argue
     
  44. Cowboy DO

    Cowboy DO Senior Member
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    Might want to get a Kleenex to wipe that stuff off your nose. I agree that people who bash MD's and constantly sell osteopathy as god's gift to medicine are generally insecure. On the flip side, show some enthusiasm, I have yet to see you stick up for the DO profession once. I generally agree with everything you?re saying but the way you put a spin on being a DO makes me think you believe DO's are second rate, and you are OK with that. To this I argue that its people like you that make accepting individuals think poorly of our profession.
     
  45. PACtoDOC

    PACtoDOC 1K Member
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    Whatever Cowgirl. All you have to do is look no further than this thread to see that I admitted to becoming a DO because I have found a tool in OMM for my future practice. If you are pissed because I don't believe that there is a separate osteopathic philosophy or because I won't stick up for someone who blatantly puts down an MD colleague for having the courage to say they didn't want to be a DO, then who really cares what you think. Moo was sincerely honest when he/she stated why they did not want to go to a DO school. They had a personal reason for not wanting to get bogged down with OMM, but if you read Moo's entire post you would see that this person was not anti-DO at all. But then out of nowhere comes Cooldreams in typical illiterate verbage attacking Moo for having a personal reason for not wanting to be a DO, and then saying Moo's "argument" was flawed. Go back to your campfire Cowboy, because you are way off base. And that goes for the rest of you as well who have about 4 posts under your belt and a grand tenure here measured in weeks. After you have seen many a DO student massacre an MD student around here with "osteopathic" arguments it gets real old quick. I'll acknowledge any viewpoint that is stated in a professional and non-demeaning way, but that is not how Cooldreams came across.
     
  46. cooldreams

    cooldreams American Mensa Member :)
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    :idea: ---> :thumbdown: hehe :laugh:

    :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:
     
  47. AlternateSome1

    AlternateSome1 Burnt Out
    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    Dr. Kevorkian anyone? :)

    Hell, pathologists should demand this title.
     
  48. coreyw

    coreyw Senior Member
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    good lord! but some of you people behave more childishly than parliamentarians!

    it seems to me that American osteopathic medicine may as well merge with the dominant paradigm... after all, most of you are always arguing that there's very little difference between the two professions any - and what's more that's the way you want it. OMM could then be offered as a specialisation. It would also enable the rest of the osteopathic world to do what it does without any confusion.

    On the other paw, if there ARE in fact genuine differences between osteopathic and allopathic medicine - in motivation, training, attitude, approach and technique - then I for one am a pluralist.

    Another way of looking at it is, i suppose, that osteopathic medicine might just manage to subvert the dominant paradigm itself. I've argued elsewhere that stock standard doctoring ought to include manual medicine, a holistic and compassionate approach.

    cheerio
     
  49. DrDad

    DrDad DO Stud. '08
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    I like the way you think.....

    DrDad
     

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