Should DO Schools Grant MDs?

[RogueUnicorn]

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Something I've been thinking about due to the myriad MD vs DO "debates" that flare up here every now and then. Considering the nearly complete merging of the osteopathic education and profession into mainstream allo, do you think they should do away with the DO degree completely? Interested in y'all's take.

 

[J ROD]

I have been saying one degree for years.....MD!!

 

[JediZero]

This thread might get locked. However, until then...

I think DO should remain separate. For all practical purposes, MD and DO is functionally the same thing these days (except for OMM, and MDs are starting to accept and incorporate that into their education, if not their practice). However, I think that it is a good thing to have the two systems operating side by side, separate but (mostly) equal. I think it allows each to innovate, to explore aspects of medicine and medical education that the other does not, and to cover each other's shortcomings.

For example, there was another thread where we were discussing the growth of DO in recent years as a response to the rapidly increasing need for primary care physicians. MD is simply too slow to expand or build new schools, for a variety of reasons; DO was flexible enough to cover that. I think that as one system discovers a weakness in its scope, the other can fill the gap, so to speak.

These two schools may have doctors that work together, but in a way, they're still in competition with each other. And that, my friends, is capitalism. 😀

 

[J1515]

Something I've been thinking about due to the myriad MD vs DO "debates" that flare up here every now and then. Considering the nearly complete merging of the osteopathic education and profession into mainstream allo, do you think they should do away with the DO degree completely? Interested in y'all's take.

Take a look at your icon. That's my answer.

 

[deleted74029]

It's only an issue on these forums, so no.

 

[MSSM2013]

yeah, if those DO schools can pass the LCME accreditation requirement, why not?

 

[muhali3]

The only advantage to having an MD is that you can practice internationally and that the degree is more well-recognized than DO. The solution to these problems is not to grant MD degrees to osteopathic students, but to educate patients and other countries that DOs are equivalent to MDs in their ability and skill.

 

[MilkmanAl]

yeah, if those DO schools can pass the LCME accreditation requirement, why not?

Agreed.

 

[dingyibvs]

no, because then they'd be MD schools.

 

[MexicanDr]

yeah, if those DO schools can pass the LCME accreditation requirement, why not?

What is holding the Osteopathic Schools from becoming LCME accredited?

 

[J ROD]

What is holding the Osteopathic Schools from becoming LCME accredited?

"da man" haha!!!

 

[BlueElmo]

Keep em separate.

 

[Dissected]

Something I've been thinking about due to the myriad MD vs DO "debates" that flare up here every now and then. Considering the nearly complete merging of the osteopathic education and profession into mainstream allo, do you think they should do away with the DO degree completely? Interested in y'all's take.

um...who is 'they'?

 

[WDeagle]

What is holding the Osteopathic Schools from becoming LCME accredited?

Probably nothing more than A site visit from some people from the LCME. Probably a nice tour, maybe free lunch, and a bunch of handshaking. Most definately a bunch of paperwork.

I know that a couple of DO schools have had an LCME site visit. Im pretty sure that alot(most?) DO schools meet the requirements for LCME accreditation. There probably is a select few who wouldnt. I think the biggest thing holding them back is that it would piss of the AOA.

Personally i would prefer not to have a combined degree. If really wanted to be an MD i would have gone to an allopathic school. Although it doesnt really matter to me either way. The only difference it would make is that i would have to have to get new white coats that said WDealge, MD instead of WDeagle, DO.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

I think schools that offer an M.D.O. should be opened. That way you can have both. 😉

 

[Octagonecology]

The only advantage to having an MD is that you can practice internationally and that the degree is more well-recognized than DO. The solution to these problems is not to grant MD degrees to osteopathic students, but to educate patients and other countries that DOs are equivalent to MDs in their ability and skill.

Uh...not quite. "Internationally" the MD degree is just as foreign as the DO. In Euroupe, Asia and Australasia the medical degree granted is the MBBS. So MD's have no advantage to practicing internationally than do DO's.

 

[nikon]

Negative. Have MD change to something like "DA" instead. 😀

Something I've been thinking about due to the myriad MD vs DO "debates" that flare up here every now and then. Considering the nearly complete merging of the osteopathic education and profession into mainstream allo, do you think they should do away with the DO degree completely? Interested in y'all's take.

 

[oyoy]

Uh...not quite. "Internationally" the MD degree is just as foreign as the DO. In Euroupe, Asia and Australasia the medical degree granted is the MBBS. So MD's have no advantage to practicing internationally than do DO's.

fail

 

[MSSM2013]

Probably nothing more than A site visit from some people from the LCME. Probably a nice tour, maybe free lunch, and a bunch of handshaking. Most definately a bunch of paperwork.

I know that a couple of DO schools have had an LCME site visit. Im pretty sure that alot(most?) DO schools meet the requirements for LCME accreditation. There probably is a select few who wouldnt. I think the biggest thing holding them back is that it would piss of the AOA.

Personally i would prefer not to have a combined degree. If really wanted to be an MD i would have gone to an allopathic school. Although it doesnt really matter to me either way. The only difference it would make is that i would have to have to get new white coats that said WDealge, MD instead of WDeagle, DO.

actually a lot of DO schools would have trouble with the whole clinical site situation.

 

[280224]

Uh...not quite. "Internationally" the MD degree is just as foreign as the DO. In Euroupe, Asia and Australasia the medical degree granted is the MBBS. So MD's have no advantage to practicing internationally than do DO's.

So wrong.

 

[J ROD]

MD is KING!! 👍

 

[BlueElmo]

MD is KING!! 👍

YEAH baby!!

 

[muhali3]

I agree though that MD (Medical Doctor) is a more appropriate name for the degree than DO (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine). People who are not familiar with the degrees will think DOs are either chiropractors or involved in orthopedics. My own dad thinks this...

 

[Bacchus]

actually a lot of DO schools would have trouble with the whole clinical site situation.

Yep. Not sure of the specifics though.

 

[JLC]

If you want an MD then work your way into an MD school...its that simple

DO's are not MDs.

 

[Bacchus]

If you want an MD then work your way into an MD school...its that simple

DO's are not MDs.

For some its impossible to do just that. Then, for others, like myself, it was a tossup. I thought I'd get some interviews for MD schools. I got one.

 

[oaklandguy]

Something I've been thinking about due to the myriad MD vs DO "debates" that flare up here every now and then. Considering the nearly complete merging of the osteopathic education and profession into mainstream allo, do you think they should do away with the DO degree completely? Interested in y'all's take.

The idea of an osteopathic approach with hollistic and alternative medicine skills integrated in sounded like a good idea; however, the current condition of medical practice really does not allow for a large difference between patient care between DO and MD doctors. There isn't too much discrepancy from what I've seen, and although some patients have a preference in either DO or MD, most don't know the difference. I would say just make it all one, integrate osteopathic principles into allopathic, or make DO's a completely different entity like DPT and DDS.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

If you want an MD then work your way into an MD school...its that simple

DO's are not MDs.

what's the difference to you

 

[Blesbok]

No, because then I would have to be associated with chiropractors. If they drop the chiropractors then I am good with it.

 

[WDeagle]

No, because then I would have to be associated with chiropractors. If they drop the chiropractors then I am good with it.

No, because then i would have to be associated with people like this. Most MD students would make pretty good doctors and will probably be great to work with. But the occasional d-bag ruins it for all of them.

 

[bannie22]

dont comprehend this at all. why dont u all just give me an MD even tho im in a bachelor degree program. they are entirely different programs. different curicullum.. how can u award the same degree? why not give MD program kids DO.

 

[Narmerguy]

dont comprehend this at all. why dont u all just give me an MD even tho im in a bachelor degree program. they are entirely different programs. different curicullum.. how can u award the same degree? why not give MD program kids DO.

Not quite. This would be more like awarding an English major at two different schools even though the curriculum required to complete each may have been different. The level of professional education is the same in both instances.

I personally think we should keep them separate. The MD represents a type of training and an overall approach to clinical treatment. If DO schools awarded MDs I'd expect them to teach the curriculum MD schools teach...in which case what would make them a DO school?

 

[Parts Unknown]

Probably nothing more than A site visit from some people from the LCME. Probably a nice tour, maybe free lunch, and a bunch of handshaking. Most definately a bunch of paperwork.

And a hospital.

It's actually an interesting question. The LCME standards are available here (although 1998 called and wants its website design back).

If nothing else, in before the lock.

 

[sgtbrushes]

No. Different curriculum. Also, I can't imagine DOs being "ashamed" of their education/ training. Why would it need to be merged?

 

[ChiDO]

For those saying that there are "different curriculum" please elaborate. Also, once you explain the difference between and MD and DO curriculum, please explain the "difference" between 2 different MD schools: for example, one that offers mostly PBL vs. another with mostly lecture.

I would also like to remind you that all schools take the Step 1 exam and on top of that, many DO students take the USMLE.

The only "difference" between MD and DO that I can think of is OMM, however, there are MD schools that offer OMM as an elective...so I hope that wasn't your difference.

 

[jason3278]

And a hospital.

It's actually an interesting question. The LCME standards are available here (although 1998 called and wants its website design back).

If nothing else, in before the lock.

Not all MD schools have university affiliated hospitals either. MSU-CHM and Wayne State come to mind.

 

[grotto]

Not all MD schools have university affiliated hospitals either. MSU-CHM and Wayne State come to mind.

Because there isn't a requirement that a medical school have an affiliated hospital, just that there are agreements in effect and that faculty at the medical school controls the curriculum taught at the clinical site:

ER-8. Required clerkships should be conducted in health care settings where resident physicians in accredited programs of graduate medical education, under faculty guidance, participate in teaching the students.

ER-9 There must be written and signed affiliation agreements between the medical school and its clinical affiliates that define, at a minimum, the responsibilities of each party related to the educational program for medical students.

[SIZE=-1]Written agreements are necessary with hospitals that are used regularly as inpatient sites for core clinical clerkships. Additionally, affiliation agreements may be warranted with other clinical sites that have a significant role in the clinical education program. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Affiliation agreements should address, at a minimum, the following topics:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]--The assurance of student and faculty access to appropriate resources for medical student education.
--The primacy of the medical school over academic affairs and the education/evaluation of students.
--The role of the medical school in appointment/assignment of faculty members with responsibility for medical student teaching.
--Specification of the responsibility for treatment and follow-up when students are exposed to infectious or environmental hazards or other occupational injuries.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]If department heads of the school are not also the clinical service chiefs at affiliated institutions, the affiliation agreement must confirm the authority of the department head to assure faculty and student access to appropriate resources for medical student education.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The LCME should be advised of anticipated changes in affiliation status of a program's clinical facilities.[/SIZE]
​

ER-10. In the relationship between the medical school and its clinical affiliates, the educational program for medical students must remain under the control of the school's faculty.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Not all MD schools have university affiliated hospitals either. MSU-CHM and Wayne State come to mind.

I said hospital, not university-affiliated hospital. For instance, Wayne State has clinical training affiliations with Harper/Detroit Receiving Hospital, the local VA, Children's Hospital of Michigan, William Beaumont Hospital, Beaumont Hospital, Providence Hospital, Sinai/Grace Hospital, Mt. Clemens General, St Joseph's Mercy, Crittendon Hospital, and Henry Ford Hospital.

 

[boaz]

Both MD and DO agree on the fundamental idea of modern medicine: Scientific Method. There are historical reasons for the separation of education systems, reasons which no longer carry any weight. If there existed no medical education system today, and we were to set out to establish one now, I doubt we would go through the trouble of two separate systems. It's about time we discard this historical anomaly.

 

[Bacchus]

Curricular difference is OMM and only OMM. Emphasis on electives and subjects, etc. may vary but the material taught has one difference: OMM.

 

[J ROD]

Basically, there are no differences....

Just BS...let's bring it together....make it simple.

Simple is nice!! 🙂

MD

 

[jason3278]

I vote for a compromise: We both change our degrees to "Doctor of Awesome."

Oh, and the rest of the hospital staff must refer to us as "Lord Jason3278"

 

[womp]

These two schools may have doctors that work together, but in a way, they're still in competition with each other. And that, my friends, is capitalism. 😀

If you like capitalism, wait until you get some NPs (and DNPs) with 2 years of nursing education after college and zero clinical experience competing against both MDs and DOs in primary care. 😀

I bet 40 years from now, there will be a thread asking "Should Doctor of Nursing Practice Schools Grant MDs?"

 

[DRIN]

If you like capitalism, wait until you get some NPs (and DNPs) with 2 years of nursing education after college and zero clinical experience competing against both MDs and DOs in primary care. 😀

I bet 40 years from now, there will be a thread asking "Should Doctor of Nursing Practice Schools Grant MDs?"

What? NPs are former nurses who have had lots of clinical experience.

 

[Dissected]

What? NPs are former nurses who have had lots of clinical experience.

Not necessarily. Only takes two years or so after you get your RN to be considered for an NP program. I'd say that's a moderate amount of clinical experience at best. Some have been RN's for much longer though.

 

[mcattitude]

The only worthwhile part of this thread is your profile picture. Most excellent.

 

[DrSno]

If you want an MD then work your way into an MD school...its that simple

DO's are not MDs.

👍

 

[Bacchus]

What? NPs are former nurses who have had lots of clinical experience.

DNPs also have online nursing programs. PAs have more clinical ed than DNPs. Its in someone's signature around here.

 

[jason3278]

👍

I'm sorry, but to me me this sounds the same as saying "If you want a DDS work your way into a DDS school. DMDs are not DDSs"

 

[Suenya]

I think it's silly that they are still separate, but I actually think that it might be better to not have one accrediting organization monopolizing medical training (at least in theory, if not in practice).