Should I choose Brown's PLME (BS + MD) program over Harvard/Yale/Princeton undergrad?

[Anchorwill]

Graduating high school senior here—starting college this fall. I thought I should post on this forum given y'all's experience with the whole med school admissions process. Thank you in advance for any insight you may have on this dilemma.

I'm not 100% certain that I want to be a physician (quite difficult to have that figured out as a teenager), but I'm interested in science, public policy, and healthcare. I honestly wasn't expecting to make this decision, and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed (given that I have to choose by May 1). If you asked my nine-year-old self about what I wanted to do when I grow up, I would've said "oo I totally want to be a doctor." Now, that statement has a lot more gravity to it, and the commitment is far more significant. Being a physician sounds interesting to me, and I think that I would enjoy it. However, I'm not sure if it's the one career path I want to take (if that makes sense).

I'm going to visit all of these schools in the coming weeks to investigate the vibes, but I also feel that the guaranteed med school admission to Brown is a significant component to consider as I make my decision.

Brown PLME
Brown's PLME seems awesome because it would allow me to explore my diverse interests in my undergraduate years without having to worry about med school admissions. I think I would even be able to study abroad for an entire year in China or Germany and study healthcare systems in those countries. In addition, there is no MCAT requirement, and the pre-med course requirements are flexible (I can even take orgo pass/fail). Brown's undergraduate school also has an Open Curriculum, which would confer even more flexibility in coursework. I could even learn Spanish or Mandarin without worrying about my transcript for med school applications. I can also defer my enrollment to Alpert Medical School for the purpose of professional enrichment (whether that's pursuing an MBA/MPH/JD or pursuing internships). PLME also allows me to opt out of attending Alpert Medical School after four years.

What options besides practicing as a clinician should I investigate? An MD degree can open many doors, but I'm not sure which ones exist.

What I'm worried about if I attend Brown: regretting not going to Harvard if I want to go into politics, econ, law, or something else, becoming complacent and feeling tunneled into a career path

Harvard
The political nerd within me absolutely loves the idea of being able to engage with the Harvard Institute of Politics, write for the Harvard Political Review, and take classes at the Harvard Kennedy School. The opportunities at Harvard for career exploration excite me (Brown definitely has these, but I'm not sure how they compare with Harvard). Somewhere around 90% of Harvard "pre-meds" (however they define that) end up going to medical school in the US. I'm aware that many Harvard pre-meds end up taking a gap year before med school to build their application, but I'm not opposed to this. From what I gather, the prestige/name recognition of your undergrad matters very little as an MD, but I'm interested in working abroad someday in my native country. Harvard's name recognition internationally could give me a leg up in my early career if I decide to pursue something other than medicine. In addition, Harvard's alumni network and relationships with surrounding hospitals are very expansive. I would also be pressured to work a lot harder at Harvard than at Brown, which (in moderate amounts) would be good for some personal growth. I appreciate a good challenge but not an excessively brutal one. Harvard's intellectual environment also seems more up my alley in terms of the type of students there and the culture. Some of my friends have said that if I truly want to be a physician, then I'll put in the work at Harvard anyways.

What I'm worried about if I attend Harvard: burnout, regretting not going to PLME while I'm writing my med school application essays and studying for the MCAT


Yale
Lots of the same advantages as Harvard, but a different academic environment from what I gather. Some people have said that Yale offers a better quality of undergraduate teaching than Harvard (but Brown's undergraduate focus in coursework seems to even surpass this).

Princeton
Borderline ruling Princeton out. Grade deflation, not as many clinical shadowing opportunities (so that I can figure out if I really want to be a clinician), and an elitist culture (from what others have said).

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

Yes. Even if you decide not to do medicine, brown places almost as well in every field as HYP. Although it is a “low tier” Ivy, students from low tier university Ivys have by in large the same opportunities albeit at lower volumes (ie 10 PE shops might recruit at brown whereas 30 might recruit at Harvard)

 

[Detailsmatter]

is cost at all a factor in your decision?

 

[Anchorwill]

is cost at all a factor in your decision?

All options cost the same, and cost won't be a limiting factor for me

 

[LunaOri]

Brown sounds great, and and the education will still be terrific, even if you decide not to go into medicine. The schools you've mentioned do have significantly different "vibes", so you will have to see how comfortable you feel when you visit. All good choices, though!

 

[TheBrownReaper]

I would personally take Harvard, has the name recognition everywhere and you're a shoe-in for medical schools if you go there. You're probably good at standardized testing if you got in there so MCAT shouldn't be a problem. I feel like getting into a program like PLME could even make you slack off and not get the same experience out of college, and if you're not sure about medicine you can switch into something else. Either one would be a great choice though.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I would personally take Harvard, has the name recognition everywhere and you're a shoe-in for medical schools if you go there.

Not true in my experience. Some of my friends who got below 3.3s had a tough time getting in, ending up at low tier MD, DO, or not getting in at all (most in the third category were unofficially forced out..ie switched to econ and did banking/consulting)

 

[GoSpursGo]

Brown is a great med school. If you have the opportunity to secure admission now and you think you are more likely than not to pursue medicine, i would lock that down. It is statistically unlikely (though not impossible) that you would wind up in an”better” school down the line, and no doors outside of medicine are closed to you coming from Brown.

 

[TheBrownReaper]

Brown is a great med school. If you have the opportunity to secure admission now and you think you are more likely than not to pursue medicine, i would lock that down. It is statistically unlikely (though not impossible) that you would wind up in an”better” school down the line, and no doors outside of medicine are closed to you coming from Brown.

Depends how willing you are to put in the academic effort. If you can pull a top GPA and MCAT score, then the rest is kinda sorted out since you will get top research/volunteer opportunities at MGH/Brigham/Etc.at Harvard. Brown is definitely a 'safer' option though.

 

[mangowolf]

Not true in my experience. Some of my friends who got below 3.3s had a tough time getting in, ending up at low tier MD, DO, or not getting in at all (most in the third category were unofficially forced out..ie switched to econ and did banking/consulting)

agreed, tons of people I know at HYPSM schools got weeded out and ended up switching to consulting, CS, econ, etc. the sky-high acceptance rates at Harvard to premed are primarily because only the best end up making it to the end of the 3-4 years with a high enough GPA/MCAT to even apply, and of those who are successful enough to apply they of course end up making it to medical school. I also know of many students at HYPSM who applied and got in nowhere, or ended up at a DO or low-tier MD school. I also think a lot of people assume that Harvard undergrad will be "easy" because of the grade inflation but honestly the classes are still pretty darn hard to do well in and you are competing against the very best students who come from private schools, elite boarding prep schools, etc. who may have literally already taken orgo in high school competing against students who may never even have taken a chemistry class before. do your best to self-evaluate whether you would be able to perform at Harvard UG/other similar elite tier schools, but it's impossible to know whether you'd be able to meet the standard until you actually end up there and take a midterm or three.

edit: some of the peers I know at Harvard UG who had to reapply literally had sky high GPA/MCAT. This is obviously an extreme anomaly and there were likely other flaws in this application I don’t know about but be warned that med school admissions is hard and a crapshoot and will only get worse in four years.

 

[Spectar]

Harvard. If you are smart enough to get into Harvard, getting into med school shouldn't be a problem. The connections and the name would literally carry you.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush..... when it comes to medical school admissions, nothing can guarantee success, let alone getting into a top or even mid-tier school (such as Brown). The lack of prestige of Alpert can be made up by figuring out what specialty you want to get in earlier on and then focus on research during the 7 years. I've seen enough HYP graduates who had a hard time getting into med school. Don't listen to people who think H will secure a spot at med school from the get go. You will still have to WORK YOUR A'SS OFF there to get into a mid-tier school like Alpert.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Harvard. If you are smart enough to get into Harvard, getting into med school shouldn't be a problem. The connections and the name would literally carry you.

Why are there people at low tier med schools who went to Harvard/Ivy’s

For residency, HMS can carry you to MGH/BWH/BIDMC. Not sure if it’s the same at Harvard college —-> med school

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Why are there people at low tier med schools who went to Harvard/Ivy’s

For residency, HMS can carry you to MGH/BWH/BIDMC. Not sure if it’s the same at Harvard college —-> med school

tbh, your undergrad institution almost means nothing when it comes to grad school admissions (law, business and med). It's your GPA and that's all. A low GPA from HYP disqualifies you from all the top professional schools. Whereas from grad schools, school's prestige will matter a lot more (M7 for b-school, T14 for law school, and T5 for med school). People who naively think HYP or Ivy's open all the doors are the outsiders.. unfortunately, if you go to one of those undergrads, you will know what I am saying.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Depends how willing you are to put in the academic effort. If you can pull a top GPA and MCAT score, then the rest is kinda sorted out since you will get top research/volunteer opportunities at MGH/Brigham/Etc.at Harvard. Brown is definitely a 'safer' option though.

Sure... but achieving top GPA (especially when surrounded by other Harvard students) and MCAT is not assured. Possible, but certainly not guaranteed, and I have a hard time thinking it is worth giving up an acceptance to a T40 school for a chance to do "better."

 

[mangowolf]

People who naively think HYP or Ivy's open all the doors are the outsiders.. unfortunately, if you go to one of those undergrads, you will know what I am saying.

this is it lmao. people who think that harvard or yale UG is the end game are so wrong. i have so many classmates who spent every waking minute of undergrad complaining and regretting turning down a BS/MD program because they were scraping Cs on orgo exams.

Whereas from grad schools, school's prestige will matter a lot more (M7 for b-school, T14 for law school, and T5 for med school)

this is also very true but there are still people at T5 med schools who SOAP or don't match into their top 3 or 5 or whatever residencies for non-competitive specialties. there does not exist a golden ticket where you no longer have to work extremely, extremely hard to continue on your trajectory in medicine....well, except maybe for assured BS/MD programs and assured residency pathways like NYU's lol. for these what you lose in prestige, financial aid opportunity, flexibility etc. you gain in peace of mind, stability, and improved mental health.

 

[mstpgrind]

Not true in my experience. Some of my friends who got below 3.3s had a tough time getting in, ending up at low tier MD, DO, or not getting in at all (most in the third category were unofficially forced out..ie switched to econ and did banking/consulting)

I second this

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

this is it lmao. people who think that harvard or yale UG is the end game are so wrong. i have so many classmates who spent every waking minute of undergrad complaining and regretting turning down a BS/MD program because they were scraping Cs on orgo exams.

this is also very true but there are still people at T5 med schools who SOAP or don't match into their top 3 or 5 or whatever residencies for non-competitive specialties. there does not exist a golden ticket where you no longer have to work extremely, extremely hard to continue on your trajectory in medicine....well, except maybe for assured BS/MD programs and assured residency pathways like NYU's lol. for these what you lose in prestige, financial aid opportunity, flexibility etc. you gain in peace of mind, stability, and improved mental health.

Yeah. Lots of my friends dropped out of premed or pre-law because they couldn’t hack it. A lot of my friends didn’t get into M7’s because their entry level jobs weren’t good enough. Bottom line. You have to work extremely hard no matter where you go, if you want to keep getting the top prize.

 

[anesussy]

Not true in my experience. Some of my friends who got below 3.3s had a tough time getting in, ending up at low tier MD, DO, or not getting in at all (most in the third category were unofficially forced out..ie switched to econ and did banking/consulting)

Now that's what I call a blessing in disguise!

 

[Middle Age DDS]

I was curious about grade inflation so I hit up Dr Google. One article in the Crimson said the average gpa of students concentrated in the sciences is 3.7. Granted that also means half are lower than that.

Quite the contrast to say U Chicago.

I think the OP will be fine no matter what they decide. No wrong decision.

 

[mangowolf]

I was curious about grade inflation so I hit up Dr Google. One article in the Crimson said the average gpa of students concentrated in the sciences is 3.7. Granted that also means half are lower than that.

Quite the contrast to say U Chicago.

I think the OP will be fine no matter what they decide. No wrong decision.

The average GPA at Alpert is 3.83. So if OP wants to even match their BS/MD acceptance they’d have to do significantly better than average. And if OP hopes for an even more prestigious med school such as HMS, Hopkins etc. then the bar is raised even higher. Looking at the average GPA of people who simply majored in a science is also not really sufficient as you’re including a lot of non-premed students who don’t have to take all the difficult pre-req classes that premeds do.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

There really isn’t grade inflation at these schools so much as there is grade deflation at Princeton Chicago MIT. These are some of the best students in the country. What are they going to do? Curve things to a a B or C just for the sake of it.

 

[mangowolf]

There really isn’t grade inflation at these schools so much as there is grade deflation at Princeton Chicago MIT. These are some of the best students in the country. What are they going to do? Curve things to a a B or C just for the sake of it.

yeah being “average” in a class at Harvard means being in the top 0.0001% of the country still lmao, the exams are still really hard. Sometimes I feel that outside folks may see a 3.7 average and think oh, Harvard/Stanford/etc. inflates all their grades so people end up doing really well, they just got lucky and went to an easier school. When in reality it also has a lot to do with the caliber of the students all gunning for a 4.0 - there’s no one who doesn’t care about their grades and everyone is working so hard to do well. Of course there isn’t going to be a low average GPA. People assume that teachers are making it easy for Harvard undergrads (maybe it’s easier compared to Caltech or Princeton but definitely not compared to your average college) when really it’s also got a lot to do with the students themselves driving the averages up. I would argue that being average at Harvard/Stanford/Yale and getting a 3.7 there may be magnitudes harder and take a lot more time and effort than getting a 3.7 at another smaller liberal arts or state college, provided it’s not caltech/MIT/etc.

 

[KnightDoc]

There really isn’t grade inflation at these schools so much as there is grade deflation at Princeton Chicago MIT. These are some of the best students in the country. What are they going to do? Curve things to a a B or C just for the sake of it.

As a matter of fact, yes. That's exactly what curving means.

And then, if med schools want to give you a bump because you are one of the best students in the country who was curved against his peers, so be it. But, since a "C" is supposed to be "average," yes, classes with no inflation would be curved to a C, not just for the sake of it, but to signal to med schools who are the stars among the stars.

Instead, you seem to want to justify grade inflation because it just isn't right to measure these geniuses against themselves, rather than against the population at large. And then, you also want to give them a bump on top of that because they go to a prestigious school. In the inflationary world in which we all now live, C is failing, and people on SDN ask about switching a B+ to P/F because otherwise their GPA will be destroyed!

After all, isn't that exactly what the MCAT is supposed to do? 500 means you are academically qualified, but that is no longer good enough, anywhere. And, just like HYPSM, people taking the MCAT are some of the best students in the country. And yet, somehow, the average hasn't been inflated to 520, and people somehow still manage to be successful!

 

[GoSpursGo]

As a matter of fact, yes. That's exactly what curving means.

And then, if med schools want to give you a bump because you are one of the best students in the country who was curved against his peers, so be it. But, since a "C" is supposed to be "average," yes, classes with no inflation would be curved to a C, not just for the sake of it, but to signal to med schools who are the stars among the stars.

Instead, you seem to want to justify grade inflation because it just isn't right to measure these geniuses against themselves, rather than against the population at large. And then, you also want to give them a bump on top of that because they go to a prestigious school. In the inflationary world in which we all now live, C is failing, and people on SDN ask about switching a B+ to P/F because otherwise their GPA will be destroyed!

After all, isn't that exactly what the MCAT is supposed to do? 500 means you are academically qualified, but that is no longer good enough, anywhere. And, just like HYPSM, people taking the MCAT are some of the best students in the country. And yet, somehow, the average hasn't been inflated to 520, and people somehow still manage to be successful!

That... is a gross oversimplification. I'm not sure who came up with the idea that "C"="average," but at the end of the day it means whatever the person grading you wants it to mean. That could mean you are in the middle 20-60th percentile in the class, it could mean objectively that you got 70-80% of the material right in class, it could mean whatever they want it to mean when they write up their syllabus. IN GENERAL, a "C" is "fine but not great," but there is subjectivity built into any assessment.

Some institutions/classes curve and only give out a certain number of A/B/C, others grade objectively and depending on the difficulty of the material. Either of these approaches can work in your favor or against you. Ivory towers like Harvard tend to take the approach that "all of our students are exceptional," so I'm not surprised that their average GPA is higher, but you're still being compared against a bunch of other really good students so I suspect it all sort of works out in the wash. Outside of the "notorious" institutions like Princeton/Chicago/MIT, I doubt anyone really knows enough about trends at any given school to know whether grades are "inflated" or "deflated."

The bottom line that I would take away is that getting good grades at any school is hard, and in my opinion is all the more reason for taking the assured BS/MD.

 

[Middle Age DDS]

So many great points and I truly find this conversation fascinating. A lot of you I am sure have read Malcolm Gladwell's David and Goliath. He actually talks about a young lady from a challenging background that goes to Brown as a pre-med. In this story she gets weeded out. Fast forward years later and sadly she is a.........lawyer(gasp). It is suggested if she went to her state school she would of been a scientist or physician.

So was Brown or the usual HYPSM schools in the wrong when awarding exceptional students C's because they made a mistake and attended a top school? The gpa game and what school you went to is discussed here ad nauseum. Tons of great opinions and rarely is there a consensus.

In the book it says if she went to U of Maryland she would of been the big fish in the little pond. Maybe a Terp might take exception to this oversimplification of a interesting subject.

Back to the OP, I still think there is no bad decision. Most of us wish we had those kind of awesome options. Worst case scenario you have a top notch undergrad degree and the world is your oyster.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

institutions often try to measure inflation via timeseries analysis. Ie the median gpa has increased by y since x. The only problem with this is that admissions are getting more and more competitive. I interviewed 8+ people this cycle and not a single got in. This could mean that the caliber of students being admitted is higher leading to higher GPAs

 

[chilly_md]

There seems to have been a time when there was a bit less grade inflation at Harvard recently:

Over the Past Decade, Harvard Seniors Faced Rising GPA Cutoffs for Latin Honors | News | The Harvard Crimson

Students in the Class of 2018 needed to earn a 3.62 GPA to qualify for “cum laude,” the lowest level of Latin honors. A student graduating in the Class of 2009, however, only needed to earn a 3.448 overall GPA to be eligible for the same distinction.

www.thecrimson.com

 

[longhaul3]

When you say you want to work abroad in your native country...are you an American citizen? If not it will be much more difficult to get into med school so I would definitely recommend the guaranteed Brown pathway.

If you are an American citizen then you'll probably be successful either way. Not many people turn down Harvard. It's not all that great in terms of an undergraduate experience but the name will take you very far, beyond what most people probably realize, regardless of which career path you end up choosing.

 

[Anchorwill]

When you say you want to work abroad in your native country...are you an American citizen? If not it will be much more difficult to get into med school so I would definitely recommend the guaranteed Brown pathway.

If you are an American citizen then you'll probably be successful either way. Not many people turn down Harvard. It's not all that great in terms of an undergraduate experience but the name will take you very far, beyond what most people probably realize, regardless of which career path you end up choosing.

Hi! Dual US citizen here. Applying to a US med school as an international student sounds like a living nightmare

 

[Med Ed]

Thank you in advance for any insight you may have on this dilemma.

Sort of a dark horse, but I'm going to make a plug for Arizona State. The college bar scene in Tempe is superb, and you can earn a 4.0 by demonstrating brainstem reflexes.

If being a Sun Devil isn't for you, then just suck it up and go to Harvard. Don't use up a seat in the PLME if you're not committed.