Should I do a second fellowship? Which one?

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PGY3 path resident here...
I'll be done with my AP/CP residency in about a year.
Afterwards, I'm doing a surg path fellowship.
I'd like to do another fellowship and have an interest in Women's Health.
My program director suggests I either do a fellowship in a field with a board exam (to increase my skill and marketability) or just start working after the first fellowship.
Some folks are telling me that doing a non-boarded surgical specialty after a surg path fellowship serves little purpose. Is this largely the consensus? Is there such a thing as a "practical" fellowship/specialty?

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A gyn/breast fellowship is useful and makes you more marketable (for either academic or community practice). It is best done after a surg path fellowship as you are planning. Do the second fellowship- I can confidently say you're getting bad advice.
 
cytopath is great. subspeciality fellowship is fine too, but i would avoid neuropath. follow pathoutlines job posting to see for yourself
 
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Thanks, I needed to hear all that. As for cyto, that's something I'm also considering.
 
cytopath is worthless. It has been in a slow mo destruction mode for the better part of 10 years. There will be essentially zero money in it 5 years from now...

heme with molecular focus, derm, GI, GU is pretty much it. Womens health is useless...no clue what that even is. Breast/Pelvic junk? Sounds like a year spent resisting the urge to hang myself in the sign out room.....good luck with that.
 
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Don't even consider cytopath. Field has been reduced to rubble.
 
cytopath is worthless. It has been in a slow mo destruction mode for the better part of 10 years. There will be essentially zero money in it 5 years from now...

heme with molecular focus, derm, GI, GU is pretty much it. Womens health is useless...no clue what that even is. Breast/Pelvic junk? Sounds like a year spent resisting the urge to hang myself in the sign out room.....good luck with that.

Women are half the population and their gender specific organs are fertile grounds for much pathology. Are you simply saying that any general (surg path) pathologist could tackle breast/gyn cases or just that these cases are a bit tiring?
 
At this point pick whatever you enjoy most. The original mistake of choosing pathology has already been made.
 
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Women are half the population and their gender specific organs are fertile grounds for much pathology. Are you simply saying that any general (surg path) pathologist could tackle breast/gyn cases or just that these cases are a bit tiring?

Good logic. And men are the other of the population, but I dont see many colleagues rushing to become cock-n-ball experts. Old people are also a massively growing segment of the population, but so far Ive resisted sitting for the boards in Geriatric Pathology.

Just be a surgical pathologist and pray to the Almighty that seeing everything gives you enough glass to pay your student loans and the mortgage on your double wide!
 
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PGY3 path resident here...
I'll be done with my AP/CP residency in about a year.
Afterwards, I'm doing a surg path fellowship.
I'd like to do another fellowship and have an interest in Women's Health.
My program director suggests I either do a fellowship in a field with a board exam (to increase my skill and marketability) or just start working after the first fellowship.
Some folks are telling me that doing a non-boarded surgical specialty after a surg path fellowship serves little purpose. Is this largely the consensus? Is there such a thing as a "practical" fellowship/specialty?

First, it really depends on what kind of position you want after fellowship - are you hoping to work in academics or private practice? As others have mentioned, heme +/- molecular, derm, GI and GU are all pretty good for private practice (although plenty of people obviously work in academics with those fellowships too). You'd be unlikely to find a job outside of academics if you do a more esoteric fellowship like neuropath, medical renal, transplant, bone/soft tissue, etc. Other organ system and CP fellowships (i.e. breast, gyn, head and neck/endocrine, peds, transfusion, chemistry, micro, etc.) are probably more heavily represented in academics, but I have occasionally seen ads/positions for a pathologist with expertise in one of these areas in (typically larger) community practice groups, particularly if one is both AP and CP boarded and willing to sign out general surg path.

I'm not sure why LADoc00 thinks that gaining expertise in breast, vulva/vagina, cervix, uterus, tubes, ovaries and peritoneum is somehow less useful or worthwhile than gaining expertise in kidneys, ureters, bladder, prostate and testis. A current check of jobs listed on pathoutlines shows 11 that mention GU vs 15 that mention breast and 10 that mention gyn, although the percentage of jobs that are in academics vs. private practice might differ and many postings list several possible subspecialty areas.

Either way, unless your AP training in residency was sub-par and you need a surg path fellowship to make up for it/get confident enough to sign out, in my experience, a general surg path fellowship doesn't do much to improve marketability (unless you are "focusing" on one or two particular organ systems). Unlike most other fellowships, it doesn't allow you to claim you are an "expert" in any particular organ system/subspecialty - which is generally about the only thing that most fresh pathologists coming out of training can bring to the table, since you won't have experience signing out cases, acting a laboratory medical director, negotiating contracts, etc. I also agree with others that cytology is a dying field, particularly as pap smear numbers continue to circle the drain, and I would not recommend it unless you absolutely love it more than anything else.

I also disagree with your program director in that "boarded" fellowships are better. Admittedly the prestige/name recognition of the institution and faculty one does a non-boarded organ system-based fellowships does matter, but I think the particular organ system/subspecialty you choose has a much bigger impact on marketability versus whether it is boarded or not.
 
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Thank you all, but especially Euchromatin, for the thoughtful comments. Even LADoc00's sobering pessimismo speaks volumes about the job market situation. I guess there's no real science to choosing a subspecialty. I think I just might end going with what interests me most, in the end, which is pretty much the road I was going to head down, anyway.

There are folks that I know that are still trying choose the "right" fellowship or combination of fellowships that will allow them to sail away, pain-free, into the sunset.


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I think the better idea is to do womens health instead of surg path. I don't personally understand the logic of doing a surg path fellowship + a subspecialty surg path fellowship. Heme + surg path I get, or cyto + subspecialty surg path, whatever.

Boarded fellowships are not necessarily better for competitiveness purposes. It's essentially do what you want to do. Last few hires my group has undertaken have looked for subspecialty focus, but not necessarily boarded. Like right now we are looking for someone who can do heme, but they don't have to be heme boarded because we have a couple of other heme boarded people in our group, and we need them to do more than just heme. The time before was a cytopath but they didn't have to be boarded. Before that was a molecular pathologist, but this person happened to fit our other criteria and the molecular fellowship was an added plus. This may be different at reference labs or academia where you have to "prove" your credentials more, but I am not sure.
 
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The take home point seems to be: if you can prove you're the man for the job then you get the job--there seems to be wiggle room in credentials.


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Essentially you’re asking ‘I like women’s health (let’s just call it breast/gyn), but should I do a different fellowship because I’m worried about my marketability/career prospects if I do it’. To answer a question with a question: Would you rather pursue your interests or increase your marketability and do something you’re not as interested in? Having said that, I think it’s sort of redundant because your demand as a pathologist completing a breast/gyn fellowship will have little variance vs doing “boarded fellowship X”. (Hence, the lol at Zarniwoop’s post) But, on a more practical note:

I do agree that SP + surg path subspecialty e.g. breast/gyn is superfluous. Just go and do the breast/gyn fellowship for pete’s sake…unless the SP fellowship is your “in” to get accepted by a program (which some people do at competitive places because they have to bide time for a year), or as mentioned your general SP isn't up to snuff.

Another key question is what boarded fellowship you would do vs breast/gyn? I do think this would affect your career track. e.g. getting BC’d in Peds is nearly useless in private/community practice, but puts you in select company if you go to a major university/academia. Safe bets for BC fellowships instead of breast/gyn from a “marketability” standpoint whether in private or academics would be cyto, derm, or heme.

Cyto is not getting any love on this thread and I disagree with people’s negative outlook. And no, I’m not a cytopathologist…I’m guessing the dismal perception is largely due to the following reasons: 1) Reimbursement is declining 2) Gyns are predicted to be on the decline because of people’s fears of the FDA telling women “You don’t need Pap’s!" (as often), although it’s too soon to survey the impact of this yet, and 3) More and more Pap mills are cropping up and Gyns (and some non-gyns) are getting outsourced.

However, the volume [in cytology] is still there, in general. Many specimens are on the rise compared to 10-20 yrs ago e.g. thyroid FNA’s, urines, EBUS’s etc. Also, most community/private practices see enough cyto on a regular basis (particularly non-gyns) that they would like having an expert/BC’d person in that field to sign out/consult for tough cases. Plus it helps the groups ‘street cred’ and when it comes to stat adequacies for surgeons as it looks better and telling admin types “We just hired a BC’d cytopathologist, to provide expertise for surgeon’s FNA’s and overall better pt. care”. Though any competent pathologist without a cyto fellowship is capable of doing this, we’re talking about perception of those who influence your standing. Also, there are some pathologists who loathe it just as much as autopsies and they would relish the idea of having a go-to person in the group who would happily take them on and relieve them from a tray of Diff-Quiks every so often. To use Euchromatin’s example of a checking pathoutlines as a barometer, Cyto has more ads than any other specialty including combined breast/gyn, derm, heme, GU, etc. So take that fwiw.
 
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I have seen quite a few cytopath labs close their doors in my area since 2004. If you have attended a cytopath meeting you can see the panic.

There have been pockets of growth (EBUS). Looking at paucicelluar EBUS slides is a money loser and if that if the future of cytopath..no thanks.

Urines and FISH are pretty much are controlled by in-office and specialty labs. Most of the growth there is fake due to self referral.

Our pap volumes dropped almost 60 percent after the new guidelines so it isn't too early to see the impact. You've been able to see it the last 5 years.

Bottom line..Do not waste your time with cyto.
 
Well, the new guidelines for HPV came out in March 2012 by the USPTF and NCI, and the Roche-Cobas HPV test wasn't approved by the FDA until 2014 so your practice must be clairvoyant if you've been seeing changes for the last 5 yrs.

And if cyto is such a "waste of time" care to explain why it's consistently the #1 subspecialty advertised for?
 
Well, the new guidelines for HPV came out in March 2012 by the USPTF and NCI, and the Roche-Cobas HPV test wasn't approved by the FDA until 2014 so your practice must be clairvoyant if you've been seeing changes for the last 5 yrs.

And if cyto is such a "waste of time" care to explain why it's consistently the #1 subspecialty advertised for?
I see validity to both sides of the argument here. It depends on where you are that determines how cytology is valued. I don't think getting cytology skills is necessarily a waste of time but I would advise against investing too much of one's professional effort in this.

Paps are definitely decreasing within the past decade and we can attribute that to the guidelines regarding screening intervals. HPV will further worsen volumes but the Paps will not be extinct (yet). Basically, what determines the rate of declining Pap volumes depends on the institution...some institutions are fast change adopters, others are slow change adopters. If you are at the latter type of institution, you may be seeing a leveling off in the decreasing Pap volumes because the HPV test has not done its maximal damage to cytology yet. But this is not sustainable. You are at the mercy of the gynecologists who collect those samples; relying on those who may not change their process since change inconveniences them to keep sending you samples is never a good idea. Eventually things will change and Paps will uniformly be at an all time low. In the future, things may change again in favor of the Pap if the HPV is found to miss things and the Pap performs better in some regard. But the HPV test is more sensitive and less specific. Reliance on primary HPV testing will therefore drive up colposcopies, which the gynecologists will actually like because it provides them more opportunities to perform procedures and bill for more RVUs. So, the cards are already stacked against the Paps to begin with. The academicians who write papers on workload management will have to find something else to boost their CV with.

But the trends I am seeing in the non-GYN sector are promising and troubling at the same time. This all depends on the institution you are at. Webb mentions EBUS. If your institution does EBUS procedures WELL, things are good. But if your pulmonologists/surgeons/etc suck at performing EBUS procedures, it gives cytology a bad name. This can be generalized to FNAs in general; if those performing FNAs do these WELL, cytology adds great value. ROSE can be important as well. But ROSE is a double edged sword - it adds time and those performing FNAs may want to get patient's in and out (to maximize their billing for the # of procedures they perform in a given day, in this RVU centric world). ROSE, in essence, slows the biopsiers down. Furthermore, ROSE reimburses poorly so cytology labs may not want to invest much manpower in this time-consuming activity. And with all the molecular testing out there, if you are at an institution that has a cultural preference for core biopsies over FNAs, your FNA business takes a hit. The technology is definitely improving - core biopsies are CERTAINLY possible in EBUS and EUS guided procedures.

Finally, there are molecular tests that impact the cytologic diagnosis. Cytology may co-exist with these tests (as we saw with HPV and Paps) but the situation is ripe for replacement of cytology with these tests one day. Cytology did this to itself, especially at places in which the cytologists overabuse the indeterminate diagnostic categories due to diagnostic cowardice. One advantage that cytology has over these molecular tests is that cytology is much cheaper. But that could change any day given market forces and the value/cost equation with how that could be impacted by abusing the "atypical" diagnostic category. Overall, non-GYN cytology volumes are going up at some places but this is not likely sustainable unless there is a significant shift as to how cytology is practiced and policed.

All in all, I suspect cytologists are in demand in the market, to some extent, because many pathologists hate doing cytology or simply don't want to do it. But I also suspect that this is not sustainable. Do fellowship training in cytopath if you truly enjoy it; marketability would be the worst rationale to justify fellowship training in this though, in my opinion. If you want to be marketable, do something else. If you obtain expertise in cytopath, obtain expertise in other areas as well.
 
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Well, the new guidelines for HPV came out in March 2012 by the USPTF and NCI, and the Roche-Cobas HPV test wasn't approved by the FDA until 2014 so your practice must be clairvoyant if you've been seeing changes for the last 5 yrs.

And if cyto is such a "waste of time" care to explain why it's consistently the #1 subspecialty advertised for?

ACOG changed their guidelines in 2009 (I believe) and the next year we had a pretty decent drop in volume. I remember we looked at the imager around the same time because our pap volumes rose significantly (due to obgyns selling their practices to hospitals in the area). We decided not to get the technology due to the uncertainity. In 2011, client billing was outlawed in our state as well which probably has contributed to the drop.

That was a heck of a first post by j001. I agree with every word of it.
 
Yeah, I have pretty much nothing to add after that other post.

ROSE pays like $12 or something which can potentially occupy a lot of time. But if you don't do it, the procedure is more likely to be non-diagnostic.

It's true, it's hard to say whether cyto will become more important because it will be used more and more to triage specimens for appropriate molecular tests, or whether it will be used less and less because molecular tests will replace it.

Remember: A molecular test is of no utility and high clinical expense when it is non-representative, but you can't always tell (at least right now) whether the test is non-representative unless you have a cyto correlate.
 
Remember: A molecular test is of no utility and high clinical expense when it is non-representative, but you can't always tell (at least right now) whether the test is non-representative unless you have a cyto correlate.

it's amazing how many clinicians (and even pathologists) don't seem to understand/recognize this concept. is primary hpv testing the first foray into molecular testing without the need to look at tissue/cells beforehand?
 
I am seeing patients getting colpo and biopsy strictly off a positive HPV result. We are tracking in the computer and generating some studies. So far I have yet to see a positive HPV test with a negative cytology co-test reveal a significant lesion on the biopsy. A rare mild dysplasia case here and there is about it. Having the negative pap to go back and review is really nice. It is frightening to think in the future we may not have a pap to review. Pap/tissue correlation is a vital QA monitor.

Then again the public may wise up and get vaccinated for HPV so HPV related lesions become extremely rare.
 
Would not do cyto as a "well why not" choice.

I think your best bet is trying for heme, GU or GI, or derm, unless you are in contact with a group that has a specific need (pulm, neuro, gyn), which i doubt is the case--no group knows what their hiring needs are 3 yrs out.

that being said, i know someone that did AP/NP, followed by surg path fellowship, who got a nice job with a private group because their neuro volume justified needing that subspecialty. but it's random.

and that's the takeaway point: unless you have an 'in' somewhere, your job prospects are completely random and at the mercy of your potential job prospects.
 
I am seeing patients getting colpo and biopsy strictly off a positive HPV result. We are tracking in the computer and generating some studies. So far I have yet to see a positive HPV test with a negative cytology co-test reveal a significant lesion on the biopsy. A rare mild dysplasia case here and there is about it. Having the negative pap to go back and review is really nice. It is frightening to think in the future we may not have a pap to review. Pap/tissue correlation is a vital QA monitor.

Then again the public may wise up and get vaccinated for HPV so HPV related lesions become extremely rare.

It can happen. I know of one case with positive HPV, negative cytology, and biopsy showed AIS.
 
I few days ago I would of said heme and molecular. I just spoke to a resident that just finished these fellowships. She is still look for work with no prospects.
 
PGY3 path resident here...
I'll be done with my AP/CP residency in about a year.
Afterwards, I'm doing a surg path fellowship.
I'd like to do another fellowship and have an interest in Women's Health.
My program director suggests I either do a fellowship in a field with a board exam (to increase my skill and marketability) or just start working after the first fellowship.
Some folks are telling me that doing a non-boarded surgical specialty after a surg path fellowship serves little purpose. Is this largely the consensus? Is there such a thing as a "practical" fellowship/specialty?
I say give strong consideration to leaving the field. get into IM with cuts to CMS ( Medicare) and Insurance companies for pathology the field is going down. under CLIA you can still run a lab with IM boards. but forget pathology if you must do pathology then do a post doc and prepare to get an R O 1 research grant. most academics shall be cut back with the CMS cuts
 
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